Kilkenny GAA Thread Part 3 MOD NOTE POST 1*

pmy.murphy · 29-11-2020 12:56pm

Sh*T show in that second half, tactically inept raining ball after ball down on top of TJ. Other than him the days of kk forwards winning their own 50/50 balls are over a change needs to be made, dunno would I go as far as saying Cody has to go but something seriously has to change and he has to maybe move with the times a bit buck up his ideas turning into a bit of a dinosaur on the line. I do also think he’s getting the most out of a very limited group of players at the same time and would we be much worse off with that current group without him. As far as playing personnel is concerned a serious clear out of the decks is needed there’s enough of lads there either clinging on to their place on the panel for dear life contributing nothing and yet keep being turned to to change things time and time again and also lads simply that aren’t good enough, a bit of freshness is needed both in playing personnel and in terms of how we play

mountgomery burns · 29-11-2020 1:08pm

Jizique wrote: »

Calum Lyons surely

Not eligible, he's 23

sportsmaddad · 29-11-2020 1:24pm

Hats off to WD last night, some performance and they firmly defied the "3 weeks in a row" theory with that 2nd half display. Best of luck to them in the final, they seem to be going into it in a far better place than in 2017. They won't fear either of GY or LK. And given the hype usually generated when they get on a run, I think the uniqueness of this year and lack of crowds is a plus for them.

I see lots of knives out for Cody straightaway. What a difference 2 weeks make! After the GY win all the talk was about the progress of the younger contingent and of course the indomitable spirit. Sure, the plaudits weren't exactly in fulsome praise of the tactical performance. But I think most commentators agreed that management got it right on the night and made the right substations at the right time.

Roll on 2 weeks and a 3 point defeat to what is undoubtedly a team at the absolute top of its game. OK, too many deliveries from KK defence allowed WD backs to put on one of the best displays of high catching I've seen in years. But for the goal that kick started WD's 2nd half there were 5 KK defenders surrounding Bennett. Loads of the following scores in that game changing quarter came from just running at, taking on and beating KK backs. I don't think you can lay it all the door of management or poor tactics.

I don't think a knee jerk reaction on the basis of what is simply 1 defeat out of 3 cracking championship games in the most bizarre season in decades is what this KK team, with so many young bright prospects, needs right now.

pmy.murphy · 29-11-2020 1:36pm

sportsmaddad wrote: »

Hats off to WD last night, some performance and they firmly defied the "3 weeks in a row" theory with that 2nd half display. Best of luck to them in the final, they seem to be going into it in a far better place than in 2017. They won't fear either of GY or LK. And given the hype usually generated when they get on a run, I think the uniqueness of this year and lack of crowds is a plus for them.

I see lots of knives out for Cody straightaway. What a difference 2 weeks make! After the GY win all the talk was about the progress of the younger contingent and of course the indomitable spirit. Sure, the plaudits weren't exactly in fulsome praise of the tactical performance. But I think most commentators agreed that management got it right on the night and made the right substations at the right time.

Roll on 2 weeks and a 3 point defeat to what is undoubtedly a team at the absolute top of its game. OK, too many deliveries from KK defence allowed WD backs to put on one of the best displays of high catching I've seen in years. But for the goal that kick started WD's 2nd half there were 5 KK defenders surrounding Bennett. Loads of the following scores in that game changing quarter came from just running at, taking on and beating KK backs. I don't think you can lay it all the door of management or poor tactics.

I don't think a knee jerk reaction on the basis of what is simply 1 defeat out of 3 cracking championship games in the most bizarre season in decades is what this KK team, with so many young bright prospects, needs right now.

Are there really that many “bright young prospects” as you call it? Who there is ready to step into the shoes of a TJ or Richie Hogan when they are gone or is even on that level of raw ability? That level of talent is not there. Some of these bright young prospects are very limited in terms of hurling ability from what I can see for example even that first goal we scored last night keoghan nearly messed it up with his pure awkwardness when the natural instinct in that position should be just to pull on the ball and it’s in the net

babyjesus14 · 29-11-2020 2:02pm

pmy.murphy wrote: »

Are there really that many “bright young prospects” as you call it? Who there is ready to step into the shoes of a TJ or Richie Hogan when they are gone or is even on that level of raw ability? That level of talent is not there. Some of these bright young prospects are very limited in terms of hurling ability from what I can see for example even that first goal we scored last night keoghan nearly messed it up with his pure awkwardness when the natural instinct in that position should be just to pull on the ball and it’s in the net

I think i have heard it all now! A guy is being criticised for not finishing a goal stylishly enough. You couldn't make it up!

29-11-2020 2:06pm

hurleyrebel wrote: »

What's the overall swell of opinion about whether Cody should stay or go? 50-50 or thereabouts?

For the first time I'm leaning towards he should go.

farmerval · 29-11-2020 2:12pm

In last years semi final and final and again yesterday, Kilkenny's style and crowding the half back line and huge intensity upset their opponents and got KK off to a flyer, however in each game once the opposition settled and began to find ways around what Kilkenny were doing KK had no real answer, no way of reacting to changing circumstance.
Nearly all teams forwards play better when their opponents are chasing the game, leaving more space but KK don't. It's like the savage work rate mantra is so overbearing that playing the game in front of them is less important. By comparison, Limericks two corner forwards chased deep several times in the Munster final, they dispossessed opponents out around the midfield, but still got forward to score and perform their number 1 function.

In last years All Ireland John Donnelly could have been man of the match. He was outstanding, but with ten minutes to go he was still foraging back in his half back line. Are Kilkenny currently getting the balance right between workhorses and hurlers?

Be worth while if someone could count how many scores TJ had a hand in yesterday. His ability having won possession to find someone in space is unrivalled, he really is the best hurler currently in the game.

JJs Left Hand · 29-11-2020 2:16pm

Shane McGrath did a brief summary on his performance

https://twitter.com/Shaneytweet/status/1332814311652286466?s=19

kilkennyboy · 29-11-2020 2:57pm

Donnelly should be nominated as well and Delaney. Probably only tj to get one

sportsmaddad · 29-11-2020 3:16pm

pmy.murphy wrote: »

Are there really that many “bright young prospects” as you call it?

In the forwards alone I'd certainly put Adrian Mullen, Eoin Cody, John Donnelly, Martin Keoghan in that category. All 22 or under.

babyjesus14 · 29-11-2020 3:31pm

sportsmaddad wrote: »

In the forwards alone I'd certainly put Adrian Mullen, Eoin Cody, John Donnelly, Martin Keoghan in that category. All 22 or under.

You can add James Bergin, Darren Mullen, David Blanchfield and Niall Brassil. Further down the age grades you have the likes of Cian Kenny, Ciaran Brennan and Liam Moore all probably two or three years away from being contenders yet. Whether these are good enough to backbone us to an All Ireland nobody knows but the talent is there how deep it is we won't know until we go to the bottom of the well. Who would have predicted Waterford would be in an All Ireland final three months ago? Not many, myself included.

sportsmaddad · 29-11-2020 5:07pm

Another cracker of a game here GY vs LK. There's no doubt whoever emerges as AI Champions will have well and truly earned it.

pmy.murphy · 29-11-2020 7:03pm

sportsmaddad wrote: »

In the forwards alone I'd certainly put Adrian Mullen, Eoin Cody, John Donnelly, Martin Keoghan in that category. All 22 or under.

Don’t think Martin keoghan is talented enough to be a top inter county forward. Works very hard but think he’s limited hurling wise. Donnelly and Mullen have it all, if only Donnelly had a bit more speed he could be unstoppable. Beyond them is there really much else no one around that age group exactly shooting the lights out at club level anyway outside of the Shamrocks lads even Ciaran Brennan for all the big reputation he has underage anyway hasn’t exactly stood out anytime I’ve seen him playing for the Bridge. What about the county minor team likes of Drennan, Clifford could these lads be talented enough step up in a few years. Cian Kenny of the Village I thought was very impressive this year in the club championship though could be one to watch.

The lack of development of lads on decent minor teams aged 18-21 in kk over the last number of years is a worrying trend and why is it happening. Their getting to u21/u20 level and haven’t kicked on like others in other counties. Other than one final appearance in 2017 we haven’t been remotely competitive at that grade in the last decade well since 2012 anyway

jonniegoogle · 29-11-2020 8:02pm

Long time follower, first time poster.

Loads of thoughts running through my head after the weekend.
One minute I'm thinking Cody must go. The lack of any kind of plan B at various points over the last couple of years has been mind boggling to say the least. The game has changed hugely over the last 5/6 years, moving towards a more possession orientated game to work around teams that play sweeper systems or literally just pack their defences. We were probably the instigators of the packed defence back in 2006 with the gameplan to stop Cork's running game. Every team in the country now has half forwards working back creating overloads while creating space for full forward lines, giving half backs the problem whether to hold position or follow.
Teams are now working the ball through the lines more and more and while this requires a great deal of coaching, it's the way the modern game is. Play it short until you can pick someone out in the scoring zone. In KK there is very little encouragement for this type of game. We've all been at games where the shouts from the bank "Drive the f..king thing long" can be heard after a short pass goes wrong. Then when it's hit long to opposition no. 6, the shout is "why didn'nt he give it to so and so".
Main problem I see in KK is not enough coaching in use of the ball. It can be improved on with coaching. It doesn't look like Cody gives any thought to this kind of game. More worryingly, because he reportedly puts underage management teams in place, they follow suit with direct game.
Just to be clear, I don't think anyone in KK(myself included) wants to see a short game be our main style of play but a bit of both.i.e. long and short depending on whats on. For example after ht last night when half forwards being overran was the perfect time to go short with puck outs and work it up to a position to hit the full forward line who were starved of ball for most of match.Absolute madness from Murphy to be hitting ball after ball on top of Wally and nothing come of them. I was encouraged after the Galway match with the short POs but it all went out the window last night.

Another side of me is debating if we got rid of Cody, would we have won anymore or be any better off? I honestly don't know.

2 quick questions

1. TJ or Henry?
TJ in my book. Henry did it with unbelievable hurlers surrounding him. TJ is doing it in a far inferior team week in week out. Most of the performances he has given in the KK jersey have been exceptional. Best I have seen bar none.

2. Just how good did Waterford have to hurl to beat KK last night?
Unbelievable team performance from them last night and don't forget they had 9 wides in 1st half.

Thoughts?

Swamp_Cat · 29-11-2020 8:30pm

Takeyourpoints wrote: »

Having watched the game again today, I think it's time Cody moved on. I didn't think I'd ever say that, but some of the hurling is archaic.

TJ is the best hurler I've ever seen, but in the second half, ball after ball was pucked down on him, where Jack Fagan had dropped back and won a few balls in a row. It comes back to the question of whether Kilkenny can think on their feet. Is hitting TJ the only option for Eoin Murphy?

I'm also struggling to think of Prunty getting the ball into his hand in the game. It's normally the sign of great defending that you've kept a man to a only a few points without even touching the ball, but I'm wondering if we got enough ball in at all. Two goals in the first half came from balls in on top of Richie and then we just seemed to stop hitting them in. I don't remember Ian Kenny touching a ball either on Billy Ryan. Why didn't we get ball into this dangerous full forward line.

When Colin fennelly came on, did we expect him to do anything without the ball. One long ball came in and himself or Brassil could have had a goal out of it, but again, we just seemed to hit it on TJ again.

Cody, Ryan, Hogan, Fennelly, these lads want the ball in front of them. Tactically we are miles behind other teams. It comes back to what people are saying on here, Kilkenny play 50/50 balls into the forwards, while Limerick, Waterford, Galway are playing 80/20 balls.

Cody is a firm believer in "win your own ball", but are those days gone? We don't have DJ, Henry, Eddie Brennan who can win their own ball anymore, and the style of play just needs to be redeveloped.

Best of luck to Waterford in the final, they're playing with a style that we, as onlookers, can only admire and respect.

Eoin Cody seems amazing at winning his own ball especially considering most are 50/50 @ best & his age + IC Championship experience. He's not 6'6" but has impressed when average ball came his way. JD can win plenty of high ball, but hopefully that's not our future. Balyhale has a nice mix of styles. I think we actually have some players who would be quite good at the short game if encouraged and coached properly. Yesterday's selection, substitutions, & tactics have me reconsidering some things. Just trying to wait out the intimidate reaction.

kilkennyboy · 29-11-2020 8:44pm

jonniegoogle wrote: »

Long time follower, first time poster.

Loads of thoughts running through my head after the weekend.
One minute I'm thinking Cody must go. The lack of any kind of plan B at various points over the last couple of years has been mind boggling to say the least. The game has changed hugely over the last 5/6 years, moving towards a more possession orientated game to work around teams that play sweeper systems or literally just pack their defences. We were probably the instigators of the packed defence back in 2006 with the gameplan to stop Cork's running game. Every team in the country now has half forwards working back creating overloads while creating space for full forward lines, giving half backs the problem whether to hold position or follow.
Teams are now working the ball through the lines more and more and while this requires a great deal of coaching, it's the way the modern game is. Play it short until you can pick someone out in the scoring zone. In KK there is very little encouragement for this type of game. We've all been at games where the shouts from the bank "Drive the f..king thing long" can be heard after a short pass goes wrong. Then when it's hit long to opposition no. 6, the shout is "why didn'nt he give it to so and so".
Main problem I see in KK is not enough coaching in use of the ball. It can be improved on with coaching. It doesn't look like Cody gives any thought to this kind of game. More worryingly, because he reportedly puts underage management teams in place, they follow suit with direct game.
Just to be clear, I don't think anyone in KK(myself included) wants to see a short game be our main style of play but a bit of both.i.e. long and short depending on whats on. For example after ht last night when half forwards being overran was the perfect time to go short with puck outs and work it up to a position to hit the full forward line who were starved of ball for most of match.Absolute madness from Murphy to be hitting ball after ball on top of Wally and nothing come of them. I was encouraged after the Galway match with the short POs but it all went out the window last night.

Another side of me is debating if we got rid of Cody, would we have won anymore or be any better off? I honestly don't know.

2 quick questions

1. TJ or Henry?
TJ in my book. Henry did it with unbelievable hurlers surrounding him. TJ is doing it in a far inferior team week in week out. Most of the performances he has given in the KK jersey have been exceptional. Best I have seen bar none.

2. Just how good did Waterford have to hurl to beat KK last night?
Unbelievable team performance from them last night and don't forget they had 9 wides in 1st half.

Thoughts?

Systems and plans come after you have the basic in place our decision making at times last night would leave you scratching your head .bar Browne ball to hogan for point in the first half .there was no service to full forward line.our shot selection and lack of a bit of creativity. What was so different about hogan when he came on against galway was his movement and willingness to throw the ball around i wouldn't like us to go down the road galway were on today with 4 inside their own 21 for puckouts it looked like football at times
we got cleaned out across our halfback line because we tried to catch
Everything simple rule of halfbacks you dont letball past your line break it back if you cant win it yourself.
Anyone looking last night would say run at kilkenny and it all opens up
Pace is a problem .
The leinster win papered over a few cracks .Adrian Mullen leahy Darren Mullen cian Kenny hopefully can step up and replace some of the guys
Who have served the Jersey so well.
The cody /carey combination seems to have hit the rocks .i would leave cody in place and approach Eddie brennan as a coach.
All team setups have manager/coach working together
Cahill/bevans
Kylie's/kenerick

JJs Left Hand · 29-11-2020 8:52pm

Brennan isn't the coach at Laois though - Corcoran is. Eddie and Henry are also smart enough to know if they want the big job you don't go in with Cody.

kilkennyboy · 29-11-2020 9:08pm

Well our current backroom looks light.gorta cody mcgarry not so sure if Eddie was approached with a succession plan .

robwen · 29-11-2020 9:10pm

The customary WhatsApp message is doing the rounds about fighting in Kilkenny dressing room after match yday

Alonzo Moseley · 29-11-2020 9:12pm

JJs Left Hand wrote: »

Brennan isn't the coach at Laois though - Corcoran is. Eddie and Henry are also smart enough to know if they want the big job you don't go in with Cody.

100%

Manager Coach relationships in most of the successful and progressive county setups are now virtual 50:50 partnerships

That is simply never going to happen in Kilkenny while Cody is the manager

That isn't necessarily as big a criticism of Cody as it may seem
Part of it is simply to do with his great record, aura and longevity

Also, equal working partnerships need to usually start out together and rarely work when imposed.

While those who suggest Cody should be allowed to stay on are fully entitled to their view, so are those who say it's time for it to end
No one who is suggesting change is doing it solely on basis of an overaction to Kilkenny getting routed in 2nd half yesterday, most are doing so on a clear identifiable pattern over last 3-4 years.
A pattern that sometimes gets obscured by occasional heroic performances and of course the Cody trademarks of honesty, spirit and work rate.

What should not be beyond debate is a debate
No matter what the record of any person in any field, the manager/ceo/leader should never be afforded a "he has earned the right to decide when he leaves"

It is not healthy and where it has been afforded, the end result has usually been bad

Pigeon Chaser · 29-11-2020 9:43pm

Is anybody in the County Board brave enough to object to (or even question) Cody's ratification for 2021? I doubt it.

I fear it is up to Cody himself to call time on his tenure. He absolutely should, but I suspect he won't.

Cody has given us wonderful memories and unprecedented success and as proud kilkenny people we will forever be thankful. The man has done more for kilkenny hurling than anybody else. But it is time for him to go.

ClubFirst · 29-11-2020 9:50pm

Pigeon Chaser wrote: »

Is anybody in the County Board brave enough to object to (or even question) Cody's ratification for 2021? I doubt it.

I fear it is up to Cody himself to call time on his tenure. He absolutely should, but I suspect he won't.

Cody has given us wonderful memories and unprecedented success and as proud kilkenny people we will forever be thankful. The man has done more for kilkenny hurling than anybody else. But it is time for him to go.

Agree totally with this post. The County Board will not ask Cody to go and it shows how much power Cody has in there. Just look at the way he controls Club Fixtures in the County. All Yes Men in there.
On another note, would Henry or Eddie even want the job at this present time ? There is not that much talent coming through..

Philip82 · 29-11-2020 10:00pm

Not sure where the obsession with Eddie Brennan is coming from as next senior manager. He has had some success with Laois but in all honesty you cant go on that. He has done wonderful things with them and brought new enthusiasm and aggression to a county that have been out of the lime light for years. In reality he has had his hand in a lot of these young kk players already at under 21 level with little impression left on them, albeit reaching an All Ireland and beaten well. His first season saw us getting beaten by Westmeath and winning a Leinster the following year.
I have absolutely no bad words to say about the man and as a player I was a huge fan.

JJs Left Hand · 29-11-2020 10:26pm

I get where you're coming from but I think the point is he's shown an understanding of modern hurling. And to be fair they lost the All Ireland to this Limerick team.

Also, there's not exactly a massive queue of potential managers in Kilkenny. It's really just Eddie and Henry.

Considering hurling is our primary sport we're not exactly blessed with coaches.

The likes of Hoban and Mulrooney have been hanging around for years in the underage setup doing very little.

Our coaching officers are Briain Ryan who does a powerful amount of work but has been there for 20 plus years I'd say, PJ Ryan (don't know anything about how good he is) and Sean Kelly who is in charge of the physical development of the development squads. Richie O Neill does a bit as well and is a very good goalkeeping coach.

I was looking forward to seeing our U20 setup with Lyng and Rice involved this year.

People have mentioned the loss of Martin Fogarty but have any of you talked to him lately. He's another one who hasn't really adapted to hurling in 2020. He loves telling people Tommy Walsh never went into a gym... He's a good hurling coach but the game has moved on.

Unfortunately everyone involved in our set up from management through the county board appear to be stuck in a time warp where we were winning everything without having an extensive S&C programme, without having a massive backroom team, basically without spending a lot of money.... They showed incredible foresight to start the development squads however many years ago and we got years of success from that move and we've basically done nothing since.

I'd actually love to know how much our Glanbia sponsorship is worth in comparison to other counties as well.

Its all very static. The development of Nowlan Park and Dunmore has been good from a facilities point of view but what else is happening?

For example I'd love to see a radical overhaul of our club game to get a couple of North and South divisional teams made up of Intermediate and Junior players into the senior set up. All those underage players who once they're out of minor go back to Junior clubs and just drift off playing poor quality teams... Get them into a senior league, consistently training with better players.

Billy Ocean · 29-11-2020 10:48pm

robwen wrote: »

The customary WhatsApp message is doing the rounds about fighting in Kilkenny dressing room after match yday

seen it presumed it was nonsense, mentions Cody's nephew which sounds like a lie.

Unfortunately a symptom of modern society, same as the people who tried to tarnish the reputation of the secondary school in Carlow.

29-11-2020 11:08pm

ClubFirst wrote: »

Agree totally with this post. The County Board will not ask Cody to go and it shows how much power Cody has in there. Just look at the way he controls Club Fixtures in the County. All Yes Men in there.
On another note, would Henry or Eddie even want the job at this present time ? There is not that much talent coming through..

Its very hard to see how the man can not see the thing is not working , as regards the Co Board the chairman is to nice for the job big Ned kept the skids under lads.

kilkennyboy · 29-11-2020 11:22pm

Im unsure if its the end of the road or not for Brian we reclaimed Bob
After a few years i don't know if that's progress. It was a very strange year

grimbergen · 29-11-2020 11:44pm

Does anyone know why KK not using the dressing rooms and getting changed under the stand? Seems to be the only team doing it

davidx40 · 30-11-2020 12:30am

Our current county board chairman is stone useless .... Coaching and development officer Tynan don't get me started ....were in trouble there's no doubt about that .....

greenspurs · 30-11-2020 9:25am

greenspurs wrote: »

They are getting fierce confident.....

"This current Kilkenny team are poor enough let’s be honest. if Waterford have any designs on winning an All Ireland then they should be beating this Kilkenny team on Saturday evening."

dastardly00 wrote: »

Who are "they"?

JJs Left Hand wrote: »

Hard to imagine someone managing to quote greenspurs post and come out with something more pathetic but here we are

"THEY" were proved right.

They = Waterford supporters.
Pathetic ? A bit like us in the 2nd half ... and a lot of the knee jerkers in here.

Well done to Waterford, the 'noisy neighbours' have something to shout about.

I would like to see them win it now.

KK36 · 30-11-2020 9:40am

davidx40 wrote: »

Our current county board chairman is stone useless .... Coaching and development officer Tynan don't get me started ....were in trouble there's no doubt about that .....

Don't know Tynan that well but I see he is being contested for that position at Convention next Monday.

Village87 · 30-11-2020 10:02am

Our half back line and midfield were completely dominated the weekend. Very disappointed in Paddy Deegan he was bet in the air for both goals got the run around by Stephen Bennett and also Jack Fagan. Padraig Walsh was anonymous and Cillian Buckley was very poor in possession and when turned he is desperately slow. Conor Fogarty blown out of it again and very poor hurling skill levels for this level, similar with Browne.

We need good tidy hurlers in this area to compete with the Limericks/ Waterford style of play. We just don't have them at the minute.

JJs Left Hand · 30-11-2020 10:13am

KK36 wrote: »

Don't know Tynan that well but I see he is being contested for that position at Convention next Monday.

Is there somewhere where this can be seen? Who's taking him on?

conor05 · 30-11-2020 10:19am

Village87 wrote: »

Our half back line and midfield were completely dominated the weekend. Very disappointed in Paddy Deegan he was bet in the air for both goals got the run around by Stephen Bennett and also Jack Fagan. Padraig Walsh was anonymous and Cillian Buckley was very poor in possession and when turned he is desperately slow. Conor Fogarty blown out of it again and very poor hurling skill levels for this level, similar with Browne.

We need good tidy hurlers in this area to compete with the Limericks/ Waterford style of play. We just don't have them at the minute.

Is Leinster underage falling behind Munster at the vital age group of 19-22 in player development?

Kilkenny, Wexford and Dublin hurlers don't seem to be as slick skillwise as some of their munster counterparts!

Tipperarys and Limerick success is coming off the back of winning under 20 All Irelands in the last 10 years.

Obviously Kilkenny won 4 x All Irelands in 11, 12, 14 & 15 but we still had a very strong spine from the under 20 All ireland wins in 2004, 2006 and 2008.

KK36 · 30-11-2020 11:09am

JJs Left Hand wrote: »

Is there somewhere where this can be seen? Who's taking him on?

Your club secretary would have it I'd say.
It's Kieran Muldowney from Conahy. If it's the same person I'm thinking of he worked with the GAA before.

davidx40 · 30-11-2020 12:31pm

We need new blood badly on county board ...Tynan and Jimmy Walsh are complete waste if time .....Pat Henderson is still on it absolute kk legend but he had his day

minty81 · 30-11-2020 12:49pm

Conceding 2-17 in second half and 2-16 of that from play tells its own story. Half back line and midfield cleaned out. Yet the answer to this was to take off our full forward line despite the lack of quality ball going in.
We have alot of nice defenders, but nice is the problem. We're really lacking a dominant force at the back and big worry is I don't see one coming either. The young talent i see coming through are mainly forward players (e.g. cian kenny and ciaran brennan).
Anyone suggestions on any new players to try at half back or midfield? Or is it more likely move around whats there already... e.g.Lawlor or Brassil as half backs?

kilkennyboy · 30-11-2020 1:00pm

Corcoran wing back for ballyhale. Bit like Callum Lyons probably only 19/20 but very quick

robwen · 30-11-2020 1:49pm

There's a rumour Eddie Brennan taking on the Ballyragget job

ttowncat · 30-11-2020 4:58pm

Youth development in the county is indeed shambolic. At primary level, the gaa coach is rarely seen and when he does turn up it's usually the handy option of throwing a gaelic football out. 1) he should have a van full of spare hurls, helmets and rubber hurls. 2) a phone call in advance and every kid will have their gear with them in advance.3) the county need to find investment for another one of those schools coaches.

I did a coaching one day course in kk with the development officers a few years ago. They had us doing the overhead pull drill and doubling on the ball. Very limited benefit apart from athletic coordination maybe, but this drill was put out there as 'hey look what expert tip we have that no one else is doing'.

Very little tactical nous or game plan coached from co minor management.

So many clubs can barely get enough meaningful trainings or matches because of development squads and county schedules. Clubs with 5 or 6 at training. I would really love to see development squads for all tried out. Amalgamate a couple of rural clubs and try have 30 on a pitch whilst the stars are gone to their traditional development squads.
Too many youngsters walk around with a hurl, but few are hurling in the 'killing fields' of parks and back gardens. Most only pick up a hurl when it's training/match time.
Add to that smaller families and less prevalence of sets of hurling brothers and we're in for a massive famine.

30-11-2020 9:22pm

KK36 wrote: »

Your club secretary would have it I'd say.
It's Kieran Muldowney from Conahy. If it's the same person I'm thinking of he worked with the GAA before.

Does he work with M lyng motors.

Mankbag · 30-11-2020 10:22pm

ttowncat wrote: »

Youth development in the county is indeed shambolic. At primary level, the gaa coach is rarely seen and when he does turn up it's usually the handy option of throwing a gaelic football out. 1) he should have a van full of spare hurls, helmets and rubber hurls. 2) a phone call in advance and every kid will have their gear with them in advance.3) the county need to find investment for another one of those schools coaches.

I did a coaching one day course in kk with the development officers a few years ago. They had us doing the overhead pull drill and doubling on the ball. Very limited benefit apart from athletic coordination maybe, but this drill was put out there as 'hey look what expert tip we have that no one else is doing'.

Very little tactical nous or game plan coached from co minor management.

So many clubs can barely get enough meaningful trainings or matches because of development squads and county schedules. Clubs with 5 or 6 at training. I would really love to see development squads for all tried out. Amalgamate a couple of rural clubs and try have 30 on a pitch whilst the stars are gone to their traditional development squads.
Too many youngsters walk around with a hurl, but few are hurling in the 'killing fields' of parks and back gardens. Most only pick up a hurl when it's training/match time.
Add to that smaller families and less prevalence of sets of hurling brothers and we're in for a massive famine.

They have "smaller families and less prevalence of sets of hurling brothers" in other counties too, you realise?

Garyp88 · 30-11-2020 10:35pm

It's a very strange scenario to be in really, all ireland final last year and leinster championship winners this year without playing well.

I have said it numerous times I think we need fresh ideas and a new approach the problem is how deep does it go is it just codys out of date tactics and philosophies are no longer good enough. Apart from TJ no body looks fit or has a burst of speed. The annoyance is in patches against Waterford and Dublin things were decent or was it in reality them 2 teams were that poor and made kilkenny look good.

Kilkenny has a very good standard of club hurling yet the last 4 years its not transitioned to County level surely that is a concern when players are performing well then get to the county and be poor Colin being the standout one. Alot going on about if TJ wasn't there kilkenny would be awful so would Galway without canning and Cork without horgan. Limerick, tipp and Waterford don't really have a marquee player they have a fantastic team bond who work for each other and if one has an off day someone steps up its like a well oiled machine.

Unfortunately the players panic and have no confidence, the physicality and conditioning is way off other counties, there is no pace anywhere and there is no plan b. The game has changed but kilkenny still stuck in the dark ages and haven't evolved to this new brand of hurling.

I would like to see fresh faces and ideas, maybe some players may benefit aswell. Some definite changes in position for some players and some gameplan and plan b. Yes other teams are alot better standard but these capitulations are worrying

The_Ghost · 30-11-2020 10:46pm

After rewatching the game just a few more thoughts. We had our good spell in the first half and didn’t make it count at all. After the second goal Murphy hit the ball out of play, so did Buckley and Walsh and billy Ryan and Richie hogan had brutal wides as well as paddy deegan hit and hope wide. All this kept them in it while their spell lasted longer they made it really count. Billy Ryan got the goal against dublin and done nothing else in his 2 games beside needlessly foul.

2-16 from play is disgraceful to concede in a half. For Bennett’s first goal (which in my opinion was the game changer) Walsh got booked for his attempt at playing the ball which didn’t effect bennett at all. Not to encourage it but he should have tactically fouled him, all he would have got was a yellow which he got anyway. This could have happened on numerous occasions but didn’t. I know just fouling lads isn’t the solution and just shows how utterly overrun we were but sometimes you’ve got to stop the attack. Our half back line didn’t catch or break one ball and we were out fetched throughout.

I spoke after the dublin game about movement in the forwards and again it didn’t seem noticeable on the tv anyway. You’d wonder what was said to Fennelly and alyward coming on cuz all they did was stand inside and only got 1 ball between them. Just compare the puck outs.

We do have quality hurlers but only TJ can continue to perform when the other team get on top most of the time at least.Delaney Donnolly and TJ all had very good years. Full back line in general too did well. Half back line done well in spells but couldn’t stop the dublin or Waterford onslaught and we do seem miles behind in terms of S&C. Cody and Keoghqn showed some very good signs and we won Leinster so it’s not all bad. Adrian was a big scoring loss and it must be remembered he has a very good on pitch relationship with Colin and TJ.

We’ll surely loose a few great servants. A huge commitment for some lads on the panel to be overlooked in terms of substitutions. Same everywhere I Spose.

awaywithyou · 30-11-2020 11:14pm

Just watched back sec half of game there now... KK half back line and midfield really poor... very very poor... I would say Cody needs to find 3 physically strong half backs.. Walsh and Buckley were just swatted aside by Waterford.. they were in no way commanding.. would Lawlor be an option at 6.. be very hard to see Waterford making so many clean catches against Limerick... think Richie Hogan should have been left on... KK still have good enuf forwards.... Reid Donnelly and to a lesser extent Hogan Walsh and Fennelly... while KK never gave up... they don’t play with the same intensity as 5-10 yrs ago.. where KK defenders years ago would smother forwards... defense the other nite don’t seem to have any positional sense or reading of th game etc.... got totally sucked in for 2nd goal... I mean ur full back line should not get caught under a puck out like that leaving space in behind... surprised really at KK defense usually a very strong area for them.. what has happened to Joey Holden? And there was a guy there a few yrs ago I think his name was Rob Lennon?

ttowncat · 30-11-2020 11:19pm

Mankbag wrote: »

They have "smaller families and less prevalence of sets of hurling brothers" in other counties too, you realise?

Mind blown.
We don't have the same population to pick from as say cork, tipp, dublin, galway

Alonzo Moseley · 30-11-2020 11:23pm

ttowncat wrote: »

Youth development in the county is indeed shambolic. At primary level, the gaa coach is rarely seen and when he does turn up it's usually the handy option of throwing a gaelic football out. 1) he should have a van full of spare hurls, helmets and rubber hurls. 2) a phone call in advance and every kid will have their gear with them in advance.3) the county need to find investment for another one of those schools coaches.

I did a coaching one day course in kk with the development officers a few years ago. They had us doing the overhead pull drill and doubling on the ball. Very limited benefit apart from athletic coordination maybe, but this drill was put out there as 'hey look what expert tip we have that no one else is doing'.

Very little tactical nous or game plan coached from co minor management.

So many clubs can barely get enough meaningful trainings or matches because of development squads and county schedules. Clubs with 5 or 6 at training. I would really love to see development squads for all tried out. Amalgamate a couple of rural clubs and try have 30 on a pitch whilst the stars are gone to their traditional development squads.
Too many youngsters walk around with a hurl, but few are hurling in the 'killing fields' of parks and back gardens. Most only pick up a hurl when it's training/match time.
Add to that smaller families and less prevalence of sets of hurling brothers and we're in for a massive famine.

I agree with some of that but excessively gloomy and one-sided.

We have more better hurlers in the 17-21 year age range than either of the two AI finalists
They are both drawing hugely from a 2012-2014 minor golden crop, and neither (especially Waterford) have done a lot since then

Whether those 17-21-year-olds will be good enough to help get us back on top or at least close to the top, we just don't know, but it's a good pool that we can be optimistic about replacing 3-4 players who clearly look as if they have reached end of IC careers.

I think maybe only Galway have as good and prob better players in that age range
I am far from blown away by Tipp's last two U21/U20 talent pool.
I saw Cadell and Brian Mc Grath and Mark Kehoe in Fitz action a few times this year and they didn't stick out.
As we are now seeing, Tipp's best talent of all in these teams may well have been on the sideline

It's a real pity no u20 this year, we had a good looking team (and new young management set up) and would have been very interesting to see how we would have gone.

I think we have the hurling talent but I agree with other posters that we need one or two speedsters that at present at least are not obviously available to us

kilkennyboy · 30-11-2020 11:36pm

awaywithyou wrote: »

Just watched back sec half of game there now... KK half back line and midfield really poor... very very poor... I would say Cody needs to find 3 physically strong half backs.. Walsh and Buckley were just swatted aside by Waterford.. they were in no way commanding.. would Lawlor be an option at 6.. be very hard to see Waterford making so many clean catches against Limerick... think Richie Hogan should have been left on... KK still have good enuf forwards.... Reid Donnelly and to a lesser extent Hogan Walsh and Fennelly... while KK never gave up... they don’t play with the same intensity as 5-10 yrs ago.. where KK defenders years ago would smother forwards... defense the other nite don’t seem to have any positional sense or reading of th game etc.... got totally sucked in for 2nd goal... I mean ur full back line should not get caught under a puck out like that leaving space in behind... surprised really at KK defense usually a very strong area for them.. what has happened to Joey Holden? And there was a guy there a few yrs ago I think his name was Rob Lennon?

Few days pass and dust settles and the real problems start to surface
You 100% right.basic defending was shocking we weren't opened up by
Some wonder plan .we were cleaned out in the air .where is someone like Jackie to come and meet runner's like Bennett at one stage he ran 70m to tap over a point from 21.how deegen and p walsh lasted the full game is baffling. 2.16 from play for Waterford and we are taking of corner forwards.
We will be back playing championship in April so should use the league to find mobile wingbacks maybe try p walsh centre forward

Alonzo Moseley · 30-11-2020 11:45pm

kilkennyboy wrote: »

Few days pass and dust settles and the real problems start to surface
You 100% right.basic defending was shocking we weren't opened up by
Some wonder plan .we were cleaned out in the air .where is someone like Jackie to come and meet runner's like Bennett at one stage he ran 70m to tap over a point from 21.how deegen and p walsh lasted the full game is baffling. 2.16 from play for Waterford and we are taking of corner forwards.
We will be back playing championship in April so should use the league to find mobile wingbacks maybe try p walsh centre forward

We conceded a combined total of a staggering 4 -33 in the two second halves versus Waterford and Dublin yet only one of the 10 substitutions made in those two halves was for a back and that was in the 70th min of the Dublin game.

It is astonishing that all 6 backs lasted the 70 mins last Saturday

But this has been a recurring feature all through Cody's reign especially in recent years (rem 2016 final when all 3 of full-back line were left on despite been torn asunder from almost the first minute, and only one back, Kieran Joyce, was replaced and that was after an hour and game lost)

Cody invariably targets forwards when momentum shifts against us.

Donnelly has a terrific paw and there is no one better than TJ, so when guys like that cannot get their hand on the ball, then maybe the problem is quality of delivery

01-12-2020 7:06am

Was DJ Carey with the team saturday night on empty croke park none of the cameras picked up on him its a question a lot of people have been asking the last couple of days. As regards the backs we have a ready made full back in C Delany i think Hugh lawlor hurls better out the field as he has when he has been switched the last couple of games when he plays for his club. C Fogarty should have been gone after twenty minutes the other night he is just not up to it anymore you wonder what players like R Ried has to do to get there.

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