Holocaust Denial [MOD NOTE POST #1]

King Mob

Thread splitting from here:
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=106894796
Cause this racist nonsense shouldn't be left unchallenged.

Chrongen wrote: »

You think I am a Holocaust denier because I question the numbers?

No, you are not "questioning the numbers". You are repeating an argument you have found on the internet that is spread by racist propaganda.
You have never actually looked into the information and you are just parroting it without critical thought.
This makes you a holocaust denier.

Chrongen wrote: »

Like I already stated to you...a fact that you seem not to like to digest.....the death toll at Auschwitz was reduced from 4 million to 1.1 million yet 6 million are still the number dead.

Ask a 8 year old, and then call that child a Holocaust denier.

Ok.
Who first claimed it was 4 million? When?
When was it reduced to 1.1 million? By who? Why?
Where does the figure of 6 million come from? How is it broken down? Does it rely on 1.1 million deaths at Auschwitz or 4 million?

If you had actually done any research, you could easily answer these questions, and you would know why your claim is nonsense.

[MOD NOTE] Holocaust Denial is itself not listed as a forbidden topic in the site root FAQ. So discuss away as long as it stays in the confines of the rest of the site and forum rules (especially regarding racism). We will, however, enforce that we keep that discussion to the numbers; it will be so established that the holocaust was not faked and did indeed happen as a historical event.

Sunflower 27

There's an interesting link here people might find worth reading regarding numbers of those killed.

https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/mobile/en/article.php?ModuleId=10008193

Chrongen

King Mob wrote: »

Thread splitting from here:
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=106894796
Cause this racist nonsense shouldn't be left unchallenged.

No, you are not "questioning the numbers". You are repeating an argument you have found on the internet that is spread by racist propaganda.
You have never actually looked into the information and you are just parroting it without critical thought.
This makes you a holocaust denier.

Ok.
Who first claimed it was 4 million? When?
When was it reduced to 1.1 million? By who? Why?
Where does the figure of 6 million come from? How is it broken down? Does it rely on 1.1 million deaths at Auschwitz or 4 million?

If you had actually done any research, you could easily answer these questions, and you would know why your claim is nonsense.

This is an article from the Chicago Tribune dated 1992:

In it it is stated that the number estimated to have been killed at Auschwitz was 4 million. This figure was inscribed on plaques. These plaques were removed in 1989.

One of the sad truths about Auschwitz, Polish and Jewish historians agree, is that the exact number of victims will never be known. The Nazis destroyed most of the camp records to cover up their crimes.

Franzicek Piper believes that about 1 million Jews died at Auschwitz. The article also states that the downward revision strengthens the case that more were killed elsewhere. This I find baffling. The article also states that if ones doubts the numbers then one is actually stating that the Holocaust never happened.

Well this is the kind of Orwellian point that you are trying to make Mr. King Mob. Question the narrative and you are a subversive. Express reservations about torture and you and not "with us, you're with the terrorists".

What would you say about those who question the numbers but believe them to be higher rather than lower? Would you tell them that they are wrong? You see expert historians have come to the conclusion that 4 million didn't die at Auschwitz but that the figure was closer to 1.1 million yet in the article you have a 26 year old American named Ken Hanau. His quote:

"Just because you are telling me the figure was only 1.5 million, I am not believing it."

Because he read in several books that the figure was 4 million.

So what would you say to him? Is he a denier because he doubts the numbers too?

Peregrinus

This is a claim that has been long debunked. The estimate of 6 million Jewish deaths resulting from the Holocaust never rested on a belief or assumption that 4 million people died at Auschwitz, and was arrived at independently.

It was always known that the two figures were irreconcilable; if 4 million died at Auschwitz alone then the total number of Jews killed must considerably exceed 6 million.

The 4 million figure came from early Soviet sources and was based on the testimony of liberated inmates and captured camp guards. Because it was such a shocking figure, and one of the first to be published, it captured the public imagination, stuck in many people's minds and was much quoted. But it was being doubted and revised downwards almost from the get-go. At the Auschwitz trials in 1947-48 the figures alleged by the prosecution were more like 2 million; more recent scholarship suggests the figure may be as low - if "low" is the right word here - as 1.2 million, of whom 1.1 million were Jews. This figure is consistent with, and does not undermine, the overall estimate of 6 million Jewish deaths.

This is all well-documented, and easily discoverable with a bit of googling. The persistence of the claim that the reduction in the Auschwitz estimate must be followed by a reduction in the overall estimate is hard to explain. Sure, it might seem like common sense to an 8-year old, but people who were eight years old when this discussion first happened, in the early 1990s, are now in their mid-30s; they can't all suffer from arrested development, can they?

King Mob

You've ignored all of my questions.
I am shocked.

Chrongen wrote: »

This is an article from the Chicago Tribune dated 1992:

In it it is stated that the number estimated to have been killed at Auschwitz was 4 million. This figure was inscribed on plaques. These plaques were removed in 1989.

Ok. So who made that estimate?
Why?
Why was it changed?

Can you point to ANY source that ever included the 4 million figure as part of the overall 6 million?

Chrongen wrote: »

Franzicek Piper believes that about 1 million Jews died at Auschwitz. The article also states that the downward revision strengthens the case that more were killed elsewhere. This I find baffling.

Franzicek Piper is one of the foremost holocaust historians in the world.
He in 100% a supporter of the figure you doubt.

Why would he think that the death toll was 6 million?
Is he wrong when he claims this?
Is he part of the conspiracy, but also somehow not?

Chrongen wrote: »

The article also states that if ones doubts the numbers then one is actually stating that the Holocaust never happened.

Well this is the kind of Orwellian point that you are trying to make Mr. King Mob. Question the narrative and you are a subversive.

What's the difference?
You still rely on the same exact racist sources and long debunked arguments from those racist sources.
You have to invent an insane conspiracy that involves ever historian in the world.

It's just a question of scale.
You don't deny the Holocaust as much as some other people.
It's still denying the Holocaust.

Chrongen wrote: »

What would you say about those who question the numbers but believe them to be higher rather than lower? Would you tell them that they are wrong? You see expert historians have come to the conclusion that 4 million didn't die at Auschwitz but that the figure was closer to 1.1 million

Yes. They did so with actual historical research.
Watching youtube video from racists is not research.

Cheerful Spring

Peregrinus wrote: »

This is a claim that has been long debunked. The estimate of 6 million Jewish deaths resulting from the Holocaust never rested on a belief or assumption that 4 million people died at Auschwitz, and was arrived at independently.

It was always known that the two figures were irreconcilable; if 4 million died at Auschwitz alone then the total number of Jews killed must considerably exceed 6 million.

The 4 million figure came from early Soviet sources and was based on the testimony of liberated inmates and captured camp guards. Because it was such a shocking figure, and one of the first to be published, it captured the public imagination, stuck in many people's minds and was much quoted. But it was being doubted and revised downwards almost from the get-go. At the Auschwitz trials in 1947-48 the figures alleged by the prosecution were more like 2 million; more recent scholarship suggests the figure may be as low - if "low" is the right word here - as 1.2 million, of whom 1.1 million were Jews. This figure is consistent with, and does not undermine, the overall estimate of 6 million Jewish deaths.

This is all well-documented, and easily discoverable with a bit of googling. The persistence of the claim that the reduction in the Auschwitz estimate must be followed by a reduction in the overall estimate is hard to explain. Sure, it might seem like common sense to an 8-year old, but people who were eight years old when this discussion first happened, in the early 1990s, are now in their mid-30s; they can't all suffer from arrested development, can they?

Auschwitz numbers were revisited and they changed the number from 4 million to 1.5 million. Maybe the wrong about 1.5 million too? So 2.5 million Jews were never there, either way. And we know Amon Goth the insane Nazi you see in Schindler list was arrested by the SS in 1944 and charged with crimes of mistreating the Jews at the camp. Odd if the camp was a death camp and this is the purpose of it was to kill Jews?

King Mob

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Auschwitz numbers were revisited and they changed the number from 4 million to 1.5 million. Maybe the wrong about 1.5 million too? So 2.5 million Jews were never there, either way.

Who claimed it was 4 million and which historians supported that number?

Can you point to any source that ever used the notion of four million to reach a total of six million deaths?

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

And we know Amon Goth the insane Nazi you see in Schindler list was arrested by the SS in 1944 and charged with crimes of mistreating the Jews at the camp. Odd if the camp was a death camp and this is the purpose of it was to kill Jews?

This is not a historical argument.
This is a factoid that you've probably heard on some racist youtube video.
Even if what you report is accurate it does not change the historical evidence that about 1 million Jews were killed at the camp and that about 6 million were killed by the Nazis.

If you are going to dispute this number, you have to provide actual historical research.
Otherwise, it's just holocaust denial.
You might as well be arguing the world is flat or we didn't go to the moon.

Dohnjoe

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Auschwitz numbers were revisited

And from your responses in the other thread mentioning the Holocaust

I can prove the 6 million figure is bogus using historical resources.

The 6 million figure is rubbish

Jews were murdered by guards and officers in camps in Poland. Lot of Jews got over worked. The majority of prisoners died from disease and were buried in dug pits. Rest of it made up bull****.

For the moment ignoring all the other minorities, Soviet POWs, gypsies and other groups that the Nazi's targeted - how many Jewish people were killed according to you?

Cheerful Spring

King Mob wrote: »

Who claimed it was 4 million and which historians supported that number?

Can you point to any source that ever used the notion of four million to reach a total of six million deaths?


This is not a historical argument.
This is a factoid that you've probably heard on some racist youtube video.
Even if what you report is accurate it does not change the historical evidence that about 1 million Jews were killed at the camp and that about 6 million were killed by the Nazis.

If you are going to dispute this number, you have to provide actual historical research.
Otherwise, it's just holocaust denial.
You might as well be arguing the world is flat or we didn't go to the moon.

And how do you know this number is accurate. The historians claim themselves the Nazis did not record deaths at the camp? So how did they calculate numbers based on nothing? Are we saying no Jews emigrated to different countries from 1933 to 1950? Did they all wait to be captured and be sent to camps? Did Jews not go to Palestine after the war?

The Jews themselves claim there were 3.5 to 4 million Jews in 1950 still in Europe. And they are going to low ball the number.
https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005687

Even doing the rough math on that 9 million Jews Europe 1933 -4 million = 5 million. 1 million less than 6 million.

And this while ignoring immigration of Jews to different countries from 1933 to 1945 and after the war 1945 to 1950 to America, Israel and South America. Million of Jews from Europe emigrated.

6 million figure is nonsensical it doesn't add up in way possible.

King Mob

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

And how do you know this number is accurate.
...

6 million figure is nonsensical it doesn't add up in way possible.

No, You're going to have to answer the first question first before you can Gish gallop with more factoids:

Can you point to any source that ever included the 4 million figure in the total of 6 million?
Yes or no please.

Ipso

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

And how do you know this number is accurate. The historians claim themselves the Nazis did not record deaths at the camp? So how did they calculate numbers based on nothing? Are we saying no Jews emigrated to different countries from 1933 to 1950? Did they all wait to be captured and be sent to camps? Did Jews not go to Palestine after the war?

The Jews themselves claim there were 3.5 to 4 million Jews in 1950 still in Europe. And they are going to low ball the number.
https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005687

Even doing the rough math on that 9 million Jews Europe 1933 -4 million = 5 million. 1 million less than 6 million.

And this while ignoring immigration of Jews to different countries from 1933 to 1945 and after the war 1945 to 1950 to America, Israel and South America. Million of Jews from Europe emigrated.

6 million figure is nonsensical it doesn't add up in way possible.

This isn't The History Channel, you prove your claims, don't ask someone else to disprove them.

Cheerful Spring

King Mob wrote: »

No, You're going to have to answer the first question first before you can Gish gallop with more factoids:

Can you point to any source that ever included the 4 million figure in the total of 6 million?
Yes or no please.

I just did from Holocaust memorial group claim 3.5 million Jews lived in Europe 1950. Other Jew sites say 4 million Jew still left in Europe in 1950.

The historical record is 9.2 million Jews lived in the entire continent of Europe just before Hitler came to power in Germany.

The Jews are not counting the millions of Jews who emigrated to escape the Nazis during 1933 to 1945 and after the war the Jews who left Europe for other countries.

The 4 million figure has to be included in the 6 million figure, they are basing their numbers on the historical record of the Jews living in Europe in 1933.

King Mob

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

I just did from Holocaust memorial group claim 3.5 million Jews lived in Europe 1950.

The 4 million figure has to be included in the 6 million figure, they are basing their numbers on the historical record of the Jews living in Europe in 1933.

No you didn't.

Please provide a direct example of someone using a total of 4 million deaths at Auschwitz as part of the total of 6 million.

You claiming figures and using inferences is not acceptable.

Also lets get one thing straight: It's not "the Jews" it's all historians. Continuing to refer to "The Jews" like they are a sinister cabal is not going to do wonders for the validity of your position.

Cheerful Spring

King Mob wrote: »

No you didn't.

Please provide a direct example of someone using a total of 4 million deaths at Auschwitz as part of the total of 6 million.

You claiming figures and using inferences is not acceptable.

Also lets get one thing straight: It's not "the Jews" it's all historians. Continuing to refer to "The Jews" like they are a sinister cabal is not going to do wonders for the validity of your position.

Here is the number of Jews in Europe undeniable historical fact recorded before WW2.



Jewish Holocaust themselves said around 3.5 million to 4 million Jews still lived in Europe in 1950, do that math. That would literally mean the Nazis caught six million Jews in Europe there was and killed them. And rest just stayed in Europe after the war. No Jewish immigration occurred from 1933 to 1950, how realistic is that?

King Mob

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Here is the number of Jews in Europe undeniable historical fact recorded before WW2.



Jewish Holocaust themselves said around 3.5 million to 4 million Jews still lived in Europe in 1950, do that math. That would literally mean the Nazis caught every Jew in Europe there was and killed them and no Jewish person survived everyone got wiped out. No Jewish immigration occurred from 1933 to 1945, how realistic is that is that what you choose to believe?

Again, no. You've either misunderstood or you are being deliberately obtuse.
We are not yet going to talk about your lies as regards population.
We have to settle the first question first.

The claim is that the original figure of 4 million deaths was included in the total figure of 6 million.
You have to provide an example of someone or some source directly stating this.

Your uneducated, biased and dishonest inferences of numbers you don't understand does not count as this.

So again, can you point to something that ever included the idea that 4 million Jews were killed at Auschwitz as part of the total of 6 million.
Yes or no.

Cheerful Spring

King Mob wrote: »

Again, no. You've either misunderstood or you are being deliberately obtuse.
We are not yet going to talk about your lies as regards population.
We have to settle the first question first.

The claim is that the original figure of 4 million deaths was included in the total figure of 6 million.
You have to provide an example of someone or some source directly stating this.

Your uneducated, biased and dishonest inferences of numbers you don't understand does not count as this.

So again, can you point to something that ever included the idea that 4 million Jews were killed at Auschwitz as part of the total of 6 million.
Yes or no.

None of that matters. Feel like I am talking to children who can't do math? What difference does it make when can find out how many Jews lived in Europe, pre WW2?

9.2 million -4 million is 5.2 million deaths. And Jews are not even including the millions who migrated from Europe to different countries from 1933 all the way up to 1950. Those Jews are saved and living in other countries so 5.2 million deaths could not have happened.

I can't continue with someone who refuses to accept the number of Jews living in Europe was recorded to be 9.2 million in 1933

King Mob

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

None of that matters.

It does matter as it's the first incorrect claim we are dealing with.

I am not going to allow you to deflect and gish gallop to avoid points.

But again, it's clear you can't point to anything.

The figure of 4 million deaths has never been included in the total of 6 million.
The idea that because that 4 million figure was "reduced" does not show there wasn't 6 million victims of the holocaust.

If you would like to accept that, then I can move on to tackle your claims about population. Otherwise, we're done.

Cheerful Spring

King Mob wrote: »

It does matter as it's the first incorrect claim we are dealing with.

I am not going to allow you to deflect and gish gallop to avoid points.

But again, it's clear you can't point to anything.

The figure of 4 million deaths has never been included in the total of 6 million.
The idea that because that 4 million figure was "reduced" does not show there wasn't 6 million victims of the holocaust.

If you would like to accept that, then I can move on to tackle your claims about population. Otherwise, we're done.

1 to 1.5 million deaths in Auschwitz were Jews another 5 million Jews had to have got killed in the other 4 concentration camps to make up 6 million. Either way that's unlikely 6 million was not possible unless there was somehow millions of Jews living in Europe not recorded or noticed by anyone?

The estimated Jewish population of Europe was 9+ million before any gassing or mass murder by Nazis.

The Jewish Holocaust folks place 4 million Jewish people living in Europe 1950 and they are low balling the figure down.

Sorry but the number doesn't make sense Jews escaped in their millions left Europe in the era period of 1933 to 1945 and after the war 1945 to 1950.

9+ million Jews had to include European Jews who left Europe.

King Mob

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Sorry but the number doesn't make sense Jews escaped in their millions left Europe in the era period of 1933 to 1945 and after the war 1945 to 1950.

Again you avoid the question you can't answer. No interest in engaging you on the particulars of figures you obviously don't understand and you'll ignore the second you have to back up your nonsense claims.

The historians you quote have obviously considered the factors that affect those numbers. Unless you are going to posit they are all involved in a conspiracy, which is silly and frankly, racist.

Cheerful Spring

King Mob wrote: »

Again you avoid the question you can't answer. No interest in engaging you on the particulars of figures you obviously don't understand and you'll ignore the second you have to back up your nonsense claims.

The historians you quote have obviously considered the factors that affect those numbers. Unless you are going to posit they are all involved in a conspiracy, which is silly and frankly, racist.

Believe what you like math rules out 6 million deaths. If you can find 12 or more million Jews living in Europe pre-war we can have a discussion.Until then you are just inflating numbers.

King Mob

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Believe what you like math rules out 6 million deaths. If you can find 12 or more million Jews living in Europe pre-war we can have a discussion.Until then you are just inflating numbers.

Ok, how many people do you think died and where do you pluck that number?
Why do all historians disagree with you?

I'm going to believe actual historians, not racist propaganda.

Cheerful Spring

King Mob wrote: »

Ok, how many people do you think died and where do you pluck that number?
Why do all historians disagree with you?

I'm going to believe actual historians, not racist propaganda.

I don't know, it a not small number it definitely has to be a few million at least. The six million number is not correct though.

Cheerful Spring

I use this post online as a source for why people think the holocaust might not have happened as claimed? The author details stuff I have read before in my own research and going to leave this here for people to read or ignore.

https://www.quora.com/Did-gas-chambers-really-exist

King Mob

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

I don't know, it a not small number it definitely has to be a few million at least. The six million number is not correct though.

That's pretty flippant.

How can you not know how many deaths there are, but then know for certainty that it can't be what every single historian says?
That's just lazy thinking.

The six million figure is backed up with mountains of research and evidence.
You have to invent a silly, racist conspiracy to avoid that evidence.

Dohnjoe

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

I use this post online as a source

What is the source of this?

Is it this?
https://www.quora.com/Did-gas-chambers-really-exist

King Mob

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

I use this post online as a source for why people think the holocaust might not have happened as claimed? The author details stuff I have read before in my own research and going to leave this here for people to read or ignore.

People should ignore it, it's a compendium of abject lies.

For example:

One of the pieces of evidence Professor Ernst Zundel produced at his trials in Canada was the “Leuchter Report” compiled by Fred Leuchter on his commission. Fred Leuchter is the World’s foremost expert on gas chambers and holds the patents for nearly all the gas chambers used for executions in the World. He has also personally built or supervised the building, of all gas chambers in the USA and most in the rest of the World. After inspecting the alleged gas chambers at Auschwitz, Leuchter concluded they were unsuitable for use as gas chambers due to their lack of airtight doors, lack of a gas extraction system and general shoddy build. He also chemically analysed the walls for ferrocyanide ( produced when Zyklon-B reacts with brick walls ) and concluded there was none – the Auschwitz authorities took the same tests with the same results and now admit there was no gas chamber in Auschwitz.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leuchter_report

Before Leuchter could do this, he was examined by the court. He admitted that he was not a toxicologist and dismissed the need for having a degree in engineering:

THE COURT: How do you function as an engineer if you don't have an engineering degree?

THE WITNESS: Well, I would question, Your Honour, what an engineering degree is. I have a Bachelor of Arts degree and I have the required background training both on the college level and in the field to perform my function as an engineer.

THE COURT: Who determines that? You?
— Exchange between Leuchter and Judge Thomas, Her Majesty the Queen vs. Ernst Zündel, District Court of Ontario 1988, p. 8973.[2]:164
Leuchter admitted under oath that he only had a bachelor of arts degree and implicitly suggested that an engineering degree was unavailable to him by saying that his college did not offer an engineering degree during his studies. Boston University actually offered three different kinds of such qualification when he was a student there.[2]:165 When asked by the court if the B.A. he obtained was in a field that entitled him to operate as an engineer, he confirmed that this was so, even though his degree was in history.

Judge Thomas dismissed Leuchter's opinion because it was of "no greater value than that of an ordinary tourist", and in regards to Leuchter's opinion said:

His opinion on this report is that there were never any gassings or there was never any exterminations carried on in this facility. As far as I am concerned, from what I've heard, he is not capable of giving that opinion....He is not in a position to say, as he said so sweepingly in this report, what could not have been carried on in these facilities.

— Judge Thomas, Her Majesty the Queen vs. Ernst Zündel, District Court of Ontario 1988, p. 9049-9050.[2]:166

There were gas chambers at Auschwitz. Claiming otherwise is an outright lie.
The people you are citing as experts are charlatans, racists and Neo-nazis

King Mob

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Professor Ernst Zundel

Lol. Basic googling shows that this racist asshole isn't a professor of anything.
This is a bald faced lie to make him seem more legitimate than he is.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernst_Z%C3%BCndel

Dohnjoe

King Mob wrote: »

Lol. Basic googling shows that this racist asshole isn't a professor of anything.

As far as I can tell, it's been paste-dumped from Holocaust denier blogs

e.g.
https://cigpapers.blog/2013/11/16/holocaust-or-holohoax-21-amazing-facts/

Cheerful Spring

King Mob wrote: »

People should ignore it, it's a compendium of abject lies.

For example:


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leuchter_report






There were gas chambers at Auschwitz. Claiming otherwise is an outright lie.
The people you are citing as experts are charlatans, racists and Neo-nazis

lol sure all established facts about Leuchter and his background. I going to believe this guy knows what he's talking about over a judge who clearly had an agenda.

Fred A. Leuchter, Jr., has been widely acknowledged as America's leading specialist on the design and fabrication of homicidal gas chambers and other equipment used in execution of convicted criminals. His expertise has been acknowledged by state governments and in periodicals such as The Atlantic (Feb. 1990), The New York Times (Oct. 13, 1990) and The New York Times Book Review (Nov. 22, 1992), as well as on the "Phil Donahue Show," where he appeared as a guest. After receiving his Bachelor's degree from Boston University in 1964, he did postgraduate work at the Harvard Smithsonian Astrophysical Observatory. Leuchter holds patents for numerous highly sophisticated technical devices, including sextants, surveying instruments and optical encoding equipment.

From 1965 through 1970 he was the technical director for a firm in Boston, where he specialized in airborne, opto-electronic, and photographic surveillance equipment. He designed the first low-level, color, stereo-mapping system for use in a helicopter, which has become an airborne standard.

In 1970, he formed an independent consulting firm. During his period with this firm, he designed and built the first electronic sextant and developed a unique, light-weight, compact and inexpensive optical drum sector encoder for use with surveying and measuring instruments. He also built the first electronic sextant for the US Navy. He has worked on and designed astro trackers utilized in the on-board guidance systems of ICBM missiles.

King Mob

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

lol sure all established facts about Leuchter and his background. I going to believe this guy knows what he's talking about over a judge who clearly had an agenda.

But Leuchter and the Neo-nazi racist who hired him had no agenda, right?

Cheerful Spring

King Mob wrote: »

But Leuchter and the Neo-nazi racist who hired him had no agenda, right?

Dohnjoe failed to tell you is the court conviction was thrown out in 1994 and all charges were dropped it was proven to be a mistrial