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Holocaust Denial [MOD NOTE POST #1]
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Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »If you don't believe the credibility of that source, why were you the first one on this thread to quote it?
I use information from both sides of the debate. I don't pick and choose information I like.
Even using the 3.5 million still left in Europe 1950, the number 6 million figure doesn't make sense. Jews left Europe and escaped into the Soviet Union during the war lot of those Jews went as far as Siberia. They also left for other countries from 1933 to 1950.
For the 6 million to even make sense the Nazis( using holocaust supporter numbers) would have to capture every Jew in Europe and have murdered them and none escaped at any time?0 -
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Cheerful Spring wrote: »Its pure speculation based on nothing by Holocaust researchers. Historians are afraid to touch this subject because of the taboo and afraid to be labelled anti-Semitic for talking about the Holocaust.
Auschwitz had 2.5 million imaginary deaths accounted for. Took them 45 years to change the numbers to 1.5 million from 4 million.
I can only repeat that I read the figure of 1.1 million four decades ago.
Again, there are so many accounts from so many different nationalities that passed through this system - wouldn't these recollections alone indicate that something on a massive scale was occurring?
And if you're right about the figures, where does that take you? You're presumably not denying the existence of these various types of camps.
You surely can't deny that huge numbers of people perished in these camps - even those not designated as death camps - read Yeo-Thomas account of a British agent in Buchenwald.
You surely can't deny that so many people were incarcerated by the Nazis during WW2 - and that they simply died from disease or because their captors couldn't feed them properly.0 -
Cheerful Spring wrote: »Auschwitz had 2.5 million imaginary deaths accounted for. Took them 45 years to change the numbers to 1.5 million from 4 million.
Here's a good explanation on reddit (with sources) of the breakdown of casualties by country and how the figure of four million deaths attributed to Aushwitz had never been accepted by Western academia.
https://amp.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/4gmxqm/why_the_count_six_million_still_persists_when_the/
Can you give me sourced material to counter this?0 -
I think this article deals very concisely with the 6 million figure:
https://www.haaretz.com/jewish/holocaust-remembrance-day/.premium-6-million-where-is-the-figure-from-1.5319546On its website,Yad Vashem, Israel’s principal Holocaust research center, quotes the Eichmann reference, and then says that both early and more recent estimates by a variety of different scholars have fallen between five and six million.Lucy Dawidowicz, in her “The War Against the Jews” (1975), used prewar birth and death records to come up with a more precise figure of 5,933,900. And one of the more authoritative German scholars of the subject, Wolfgang Benz, offered a range of 5.3 to 6.2 million. Each used his or her own method to arrive at the totals.“Six million” is not, and was never intended to be, a precise accounting. But the number, which has now been part of the public consciousness for more than 50 years, would never have continued to be cited if it did not mirror the scholarly tallies that have followed in the succeeding decades, and confirmed that rough figure.
Several estimates consistently arrive at figures close to that.
The argument of the deniers is "HAH! They DIDN'T kill exactly 6.000.000 Jews! It never happened!"
Which is an argument befitting a 6 year old or persons of equivalent intellect.
Not calling anyone a moron, more suggesting that some people do not have the mental capacity for research or disseminating numbers.0 -
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kunst nugget wrote: »Here's a good explanation on reddit (with sources) of the breakdown of casualties by country and how the figure of four million deaths attributed to Aushwitz had never been accepted by Western academia.
https://amp.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/4gmxqm/why_the_count_six_million_still_persists_when_the/
Can you give me sourced material to counter this?
Did you read the Reddit post?
Richard Korherr was the head of the SS statistics bureau and in March 1943 he compiled a report about the decrease in Jewish population in Europe from 1932 to December 1942. He arrives at the conclusion that through normal decrease due to the death rate, due to emigration and due to German policy, the number of Jews in Europe has decreased about 4 million from 32 to
42.
Death rate? Is he talking about Jews dead from gassing murder disease old age, overworked, starvation?
Emigration: This was obviously something that happened, but you guys preferred to ignore this! Emigration had to have happened.
German policy: this could mean murder or gassing?
This part alone would refute the Jewish holocaust numbers. 1.2 million Jews were murdered in the Eastern European concentration camps that had gas chambers. This figure is accurate up to 1943.0 -
indioblack wrote: »I can only repeat that I read the figure of 1.1 million four decades ago.
Again, there are so many accounts from so many different nationalities that passed through this system - wouldn't these recollections alone indicate that something on a massive scale was occurring?
And if you're right about the figures, where does that take you? You're presumably not denying the existence of these various types of camps.
You surely can't deny that huge numbers of people perished in these camps - even those not designated as death camps - read Yeo-Thomas account of a British agent in Buchenwald.
You surely can't deny that so many people were incarcerated by the Nazis during WW2 - and that they simply died from disease or because their captors couldn't feed them properly.
Der Korherr-Bericht report states 1.2 million Jews were processed and moved to concentration camps in the East. Holocaust supporters believe processing meant the 1.2 million Jews were eventually murdered? The Reinhard operation involved all camps were Jews were send to be gassed in Eastern Europe.
The 6 million number falls apart just looking and what Korherr stated was happening.0 -
Cheerful Spring wrote: »The 6 million number falls apart just looking and what Korherr stated was happening.
So what?0 -
This interactive video produced in 2015, accounting for all military and civilian deaths in the entirety of WW2 (and other wars and atrocities of modern history) has also accounted for about 1.2 million Jewish deaths at Auschwitz.
http://www.fallen.io/ww2/
The death tolls of the war, both military and civilian, are absolutely staggering particularly when visualized.
As others on the thread have already asked, I'm left wondering what the objective is in questioning whether 6 million Jewish people, or 4 million, or 2 million were killed in the Holocaust? What does it matter? Even if you proved it was only 3 million, what have you really accomplished? What is the endgame? But more saliently: why is the figure of 6 million so difficult to believe, with all the other deaths that were going on during the war, when you factor Jewish people killed in combat, killed in the ghettos, killed in the camps, killed by squads, killed out of starvation or disease, how is it so hard to grasp? Over a million civilians died during the siege of Leningrad alone and they weren't even being systematically killed like the Jewish people were. What are we doing here? Why is this conversation so incredibly important? Is it just for the sake of idle pedantry?0 -
This interactive video produced in 2015, accounting for all military and civilian deaths in the entirety of WW2 (and other wars and atrocities of modern history) has also accounted for about 1.2 million Jewish deaths at Auschwitz.
http://www.fallen.io/ww2/
The death tolls of the war, both military and civilian, are absolutely staggering particularly when visualized.
As others on the thread have already asked, I'm left wondering what the objective is in questioning whether 6 million Jewish people, or 4 million, or 2 million were killed in the Holocaust? What does it matter? Even if you proved it was only 3 million, what have you really accomplished? What is the endgame? But more saliently: why is the figure of 6 million so difficult to believe, with all the other deaths that were going on during the war, when you factor Jewish people killed in combat, killed in the ghettos, killed in the camps, killed by squads, killed out of starvation or disease, how is it so hard to grasp? Over a million civilians died during the siege of Leningrad alone and they weren't even being systematically killed like the Jewish people were. What are we doing here? Why is this conversation so incredibly important? Is it just for the sake of idle pedantry?
6 million number is presented as fact when clearly not. We're discussing if the number is accurate or not. There no endgame but the event should be not overblown to make the world feel sorry for one group of people. How many Irish died during the famine and we don't go around claiming more Irish people died they when we know?
Elie Wiesel was accused by Holocaust survivor of stealing his friend identity for fame and he was not a Holocaust survivor. This is a problem especially when Wiesel is the face of the Holocaust movement for many decades and he was the guy writing about all bad stuff the Nazis were doing in these camps.0 -
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Cheerful Spring wrote: »Elie Wiesel was accused by Holocaust survivor of stealing his friend identity for fame and he was not a Holocaust survivor.
How was he not a holocaust survivor? Are you saying he's not Jewish? Or wasn't in Europe at the time?
Because regardless of whether or not you believe he's a 'camp' survivor, being Jewish in Europe in that era and living to tell about it would make him a holocaust survivor.0 -
How was he not a holocaust survivor? Are you saying he's not Jewish? Or wasn't in Europe at the time?
Because regardless of whether or not you believe he's a 'camp' survivor, being Jewish in Europe in that era and living to tell about it would make him a holocaust survivor.
Elie Wiesel claimed his living quarters at Auschwitz was block 86 where Miklos Gruner was housed in until liberation of the camp. Wiesel also claimed his number was the same number belonging Miklos Gruner friend Lázár Wiesel who lived in same block. Miklos Gruner confronted him 1986 and said he was an imposter.0 -
Cheerful Spring wrote: »Elie Wiesel claimed his living quarters at Auschwitz was block 86 where Miklos Gruner was housed in until liberation of the camp. Wiesel also claimed his number was the same number belonging Miklos Gruner friend Lázár Wiesel who lived in same block. Miklos Gruner confronted him 1986 and said he was an imposter.
But regardless of whether or not this is true, I happen to believe it is.
The mere fact that the man is Jewish and lived through WW2 makes him a holocaust survivor.
Would you deny that ?
Actually nevermind, you've already denied that....0 -
Cheerful Spring wrote: »6 million number is presented as fact when clearly not. We're discussing if the number is accurate or not. There no endgame but the event should be not overblown to make the world feel sorry for one group of people. How many Irish died during the famine and we don't go around claiming more Irish people died they when we know?
Thats a false equivalency, and not just because of the established number of casualties of the Irish Famine. The Famine wasn't the result of systematic genocide orchestrated on a national scale by a totalitarian regime. A better equivalency, though still weak, might be the Atlantic Slave Trade (12 Million brought to the US); or some other genocide, such as Rwanda, in which about 500,000 or up to 1 million Tutsi were wiped out by Hutu regime: the event is no less tragic whether you consider 500k or 1,000k people getting wiped out. The Cambodian Genocide claimed 1.5 to 3 million people, which was also quite horrific however it seems to get less notoriety in the West, IMHO, simply because there weren't much of any Western casualties for us to relate to nor did any swaths of Cambodian refugees make significant impacts in Europe or North America, such as how Syrians have done.
Frankly, I don't see the benefit of ascribing a minimalized figure to it, the details of the Holocaust are regardless horrific in and of themselves, and worthy of consideration. The only reason this subject is touchy, especially in Denial circles, appears to be because we are talking about the Jews - aka. The Israelites, which are both wildly hated in the Middle East and sneered at in Europe and Asia particularly. I note that in Irish politics there tends to be more sympathy toward the Palestinians, for instance; the denials to me just smell foul of trying to marginalize the justification of the Zionization of Israel after WW2 - whether consciously or subconsciously. Not surprising, given that Jewish people tend to be drawn as the bad guys as nigh every conspiracy out there, so of course why wouldn't the Jewish Illuminati be driving a false narrative to push their agenda right - revisionism over the numbers isn't simply "a quest for historical faithfullness," it's trying to establish evidence of the Great Jewish Conspiracy, from what I can surmise.0 -
But regardless of whether or not this is true, I happen to believe it is.
The mere fact that the man is Jewish and lived through WW2 makes him a holocaust survivor.
Would you deny that ?
Actually nevermind, you've already denied that....
He is a liar nothing more if his pretending to be a survivor of Auschwitz.0 -
Cheerful Spring wrote: »He is a liar nothing more if his pretending to be a survivor of Auschwitz.
a liar who still by definition survived the holocaust, even if he wasnt in the camps0 -
dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »I think this article deals very concisely with the 6 million figure:
https://www.haaretz.com/jewish/holocaust-remembrance-day/.premium-6-million-where-is-the-figure-from-1.5319546
Several estimates consistently arrive at figures close to that.
The argument of the deniers is "HAH! They DIDN'T kill exactly 6.000.000 Jews! It never happened!"
Which is an argument befitting a 6 year old or persons of equivalent intellect.
Not calling anyone a moron, more suggesting that some people do not have the mental capacity for research or disseminating numbers.
You're forgetting the important point that those researchers are all discredited because they're Jewish and just trying to make people sorry for them.0 -
kunst nugget wrote: »You're forgetting the important point that those researchers are all discredited because they're Jewish and just trying to make people sorry for them.
That's purely argumentum ad hominem. Their being Jewish doesn't qualify as automatic discredit. I believe Cheerful Spring quite early in this thread tried to submit an article to further his argument and quite explicitly remarked, "what does it matter," when asked who the author was. Why should we have a double standard here, then?
While we can suppose a Jewish researcher might be vulnerable to bias, that doesn't mean the research is inherently biased.0 -
Thats a false equivalency, and not just because of the established number of casualties of the Irish Famine. The Famine wasn't the result of systematic genocide orchestrated on a national scale by a totalitarian regime. A better equivalency, though still weak, might be the Atlantic Slave Trade (12 Million brought to the US); or some other genocide, such as Rwanda, in which about 500,000 or up to 1 million Tutsi were wiped out by Hutu regime: the event is no less tragic whether you consider 500k or 1,000k people getting wiped out. The Cambodian Genocide claimed 1.5 to 3 million people, which was also quite horrific however it seems to get less notoriety in the West, IMHO, simply because there weren't much of any Western casualties for us to relate to nor did any swaths of Cambodian refugees make significant impacts in Europe or North America, such as how Syrians have done.
Frankly, I don't see the benefit of ascribing a minimalized figure to it, the details of the Holocaust are regardless horrific in and of themselves, and worthy of consideration. The only reason this subject is touchy, especially in Denial circles, appears to be because we are talking about the Jews - aka. The Israelites, which are both wildly hated in the Middle East and sneered at in Europe and Asia particularly. I note that in Irish politics there tends to be more sympathy toward the Palestinians, for instance; the denials to me just smell foul of trying to marginalize the justification of the Zionization of Israel after WW2 - whether consciously or subconsciously. Not surprising, given that Jewish people tend to be drawn as the bad guys as nigh every conspiracy out there, so of course why wouldn't the Jewish Illuminati be driving a false narrative to push their agenda right - revisionism over the numbers isn't simply "a quest for historical faithfullness," it's trying to establish evidence of the Great Jewish Conspiracy, from what I can surmise.
I would not agree with this at all the British treated the Irish badly in the 1800's, must not have learned this in school? The took the national wealth from this country and demanded Irish people pay high rents, the very poor could not afford to buy food from elsewhere to feed their families. When they could not afford the rent the British landowners then kicked them out and died miserably from starvation and disease.
Israel will be treated fairly when they act civilised. They are abusing their power by shooting unarmed Palestinians in the back for protesting and still continuing a blockade of 1 million + people and denying them human rights. Israel has engaged in false flags for years the attack on USS liberty is now known to be a covert operation to blame on Egypt and drag America into a war. Mossad motto is By way of deception thou shalt do war"0 -
Cheerful Spring wrote: »I would agree with this at all the British treated the Irish badly in the 1800's, must not have learned this in school? The took the national wealth from this country and demanded Irish people pay high rents, the very poor could not afford to buy food from elsewhere to feed their families. When they could not afford the rent the British landowners then kicked them out and died miserably from starvation and disease.
Yes, this was indeed taught all in quite a lot of detail at the Junior Cert level. Thanks. The British did exploit Ireland, however, they did not systematically commit a genocide by casting a blight on potato crops. They set up soup kitchens, not gas chambers. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temporary_Relief_Act_1847Israel will be treated fairly when they act civilised. They are abusing their power by shooting unarmed Palestinians in the back for protesting and still continuing a blockade of 1 million + people and denying them human rights. Israel has engaged in false flags for years the attack on USS liberty is now known to be a covert operation to blame on Egypt and drag America into a war. Mossad motto is By way of deception thou shalt do war"?
And there it is. You herein demonstrate your empyrical bias against Jews, which is convenient to what I was just saying a moment ago. We have unearthed why we are trying to dispute the number of dead Jewish people in a genocide that happened 75 years ago. So you just have an axe to grind with Israel and are trying to marginalize a terrible thing that just so happened to have been done to people you don't like very much. That about sum it up? You want to try and prove they rewrote history because they were worried 4 million wasnt a big enough statistic for men women and children sent off to be gassed by the trainload and used for human experimentation?0 -
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That's purely argumentum ad hominem. Their being Jewish doesn't qualify as automatic discredit. I believe Cheerful Spring quite early in this thread tried to submit an article to further his argument and quite explicitly remarked, "what does it matter," when asked who the author was. Why should we have a double standard here, then?
While we can suppose a Jewish researcher might be vulnerable to bias, that doesn't mean the research is inherently biased.
I didn't know who the author was. I was interested in the information posted and if it was factual or not. I posted it so we know what the arguments were from the Holocaust denial side.0 -
Cheerful Spring wrote: »I didn't know who the author was. I was interested in the information posted and if it was factual or not. I posted it so we know what the arguments were from the Holocaust denial side.
I'm not saying you can't post them, I (and others) just think it's disingenuous to not be upfront about that. You could also be upfront with your anti-zionism, just own it, say "full disclosure, I don't like Israel a whole lot or the **** they do but I am curious to go over the numbers if thats ok with people" - I'm not throwing people out of this thread for anti-zionism or questioning these numbers. Just be upfront, save us all the hassle. No anti-semitism though, please. There is a line.
Holocaust Denial is itself not listed as a forbidden topic in the site root FAQ. So discuss away as long as it stays in the confines of the rest of the site and forum rules (especially regarding racism). We will, however, enforce that we keep that discussion to the numbers; it will be so established that the holocaust was not faked and did indeed happen as a historical event.0 -
I'm not sure why people bother denying the Holocaust. It did happen, sure the numbers can be disputed but the same can be said for everything. You can't really trust any figures in war because they are always based on rough estimates. Even with the technology today the UN can't keep reliable data on war as it's simply an impossible task. What is the difference if hundred of thousands or a few million were killed? It was still a shocking slaughter and experimentation on people simply on the basis of being born into a certain demographic groups.
The inability to recognise the difference between anti-Israeli government and military bias with anti-Semitism is another issue for both sides and the driving force behind perceived modern anti-Semitism and Holocaust denial.0 -
Yes, this was indeed taught all in quite a lot of detail at the Junior Cert level. Thanks. The British did exploit Ireland, however, they did not systematically commit a genocide by casting a blight on potato crops. They set up soup kitchens, not gas chambers. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temporary_Relief_Act_1847
And there it is. You herein demonstrate your empyrical bias against Jews, which is convenient to what I was just saying a moment ago. We have unearthed why we are trying to dispute the number of dead Jewish people in a genocide that happened 75 years ago. So you just have an axe to grind with Israel and are trying to marginalize a terrible thing that just so happened to have been done to people you don't like very much. That about sum it up?
Did not stop Irish people from dying and having no money to buy food. If the British cared rents would have got stopped to help the Irish poor. Kicking people of their home is hardly what I call sympathy from the British. This was genocide.They took what they had left away from them a shelter, and left them to die on the side of roads and fields with no help. They had to stay outside in the cold and rain and have nothing to eat, is the fault of the British they died miserably. Doesn't matter how it occurred how they left Irish people to die is unforgivable.
I not bias against Jews I dislike what they do. If the Palestinians were doing instead of the Israelis I would be calling them out. Israel has the opportunity to act responsibly and they choose not to. I'm always on the side of fairness and human rights. Ignore snipers of Israeli armed forces were deliberately shooting at unarmed kids should be condemned, religion does not factor into it for me personally.
Yes, I believe in conspiracies involving Israel but not without evidence first.0 -
I'm not sure why people bother denying the Holocaust. It did happen, sure the numbers can be disputed but the same can be said for everything. You can't really trust any figures in war because they are always based on rough estimates. Even with the technology today the UN can't keep reliable data on war as it's simply an impossible task. What is the difference if hundred of thousands or a few million were killed? It was still a shocking slaughter and experimentation on people simply on the basis of being born into a certain demographic groups.
Good points, but the numbers can be fairly well estimated
Overview of the methods here detailing how historians have produced consensus on the figures
For example, the numbers that can be estimated from German documentation
For Auschwitz
Added to that the numbers of other groups of victims, it looks like this:
Jews: 860,000 unregistered and 100,000 registered inmates. Total 960,000 victims.
Poles: 10,00 unregistered and 64,000 registered inmates. Total 74,000 victims.
Romani: 2,000 unregistered and 19,000 registered inmates. Total 21,000 victims.
Soviet prisoners-of-war: 3,000 unregistered and 12,000 registered. Total 15,000 victims.
Others: 12,000 registered inmates. Total 12,000 victims.
Total: 1,082,000 victims.
Or about 1.1 million victims. Not all of whom died in the gas chambers but also of shootings, starvation, forced labor and so on and so forth. However, it is clear that at least 865,000 Jews deported to Auschwitz were killed on arrival and thus the vast majority must have been killed in the gas chambers.
So, from the Korherr Report, the Höfle Telegram (both supported by various other archival material), the Einsatzgruppen Reports, and the work of van Pelt, we arrive at a minimum number of killed Jews of about 4 million for Auschwitz, the Reinhard Camps, and the Einsatzgruppen.
This however, is not all:
In Chelmno, which was not part of the Aktion Reinhard, it is clear from German documents that at least 180.000, if not 200.000 Jews were murdered.
Aktion Erntefest, the mass murder of the Jews from the Trawniki and Poniatowa Labor Camps and the Majdanek CC as ordered by Himmler and attested through documentation of Police Battalions, accounts for another 43.000 victims;
As the files from the units involved in putting down the Warsaw Ghettos Uprising tell us, 12.000 Jews were killed during the fighting, 30.000 shot in the aftermath, and 7.000 deported to Auschwitz to be killed on arrival, which puts the total 49.000 victims;
The Maly Trostinets camp, whose existence was known of through both German and Soviet documents have been estimated by Yad Vashem to have at least had 65.000 victims as a minimum;
In Serbia, Wehrmacht and SD files reveal that at least 20.000 Jews were killed, 8.000 shot by the Wehrmacht, 12.000 killed in the Gas Van at the Sajmiste camp;
then there was the Intelligenzaktion, Sonderaktion Tannenberg, and the A-B Aktion in Poland, where both Jewish and non-Jewish Poles were killed and the minimum of Jewish victims is estimated at at least another 60.000;
then there is Theresienstadt, where save those deported to Auschwitz, at least another 40.000 Jews died for certain following German documentation
This means that from German documentation of large scale killing actions alone, we are up to about 4.5 million victims.
And determined from other sources and investigationHowever, not every murder as part of the Holocaust was part of a large scale killing action. There were also Ghettos where people were starved, worked to death, and shot. At least, again going by official documentation, 34.000 people died in the Lublin Ghetto, 92,000 people died in the Warsaw Ghetto, and 204.000 people in the Lodz Ghetto, and this doesn't even account for other big Ghettos like Krakow, Minsk, and Riga, in case of the latter two before the Einsatzgruppen arrived, which going – again – only by German accounts puts the number of victims somewhere in the 5 million range.
And then there is the last million so to speak, that is comprised of individual deaths on transports, deaths in the Reich and other territories that were not part of larger killing scale actions like individual arrests, German caused famine in the Soviet Union, and also, crucially, the deaths caused by other Axis members such as Romania, which killed at least 170.000 if not 240.000 Jews, Croatia, Bulgaria, and others.0 -
I'm not saying you can't post them, I (and others) just think it's disingenuous to not be upfront about that. You could also be upfront with your anti-zionism, just own it, say "full disclosure, I don't like Israel a whole lot or the **** they do but I am curious to go over the numbers if thats ok with people" - I'm not throwing people out of this thread for anti-zionism or questioning these numbers. Just be upfront, save us all the hassle. No anti-semitism though, please. There is a line.
Holocaust Denial is itself not listed as a forbidden topic in the site root FAQ. So discuss away as long as it stays in the confines of the rest of the site and forum rules (especially regarding racism). We will, however, enforce that we keep that discussion to the numbers; it will be so established that the holocaust was not faked and did indeed happen as a historical event.
If other posters want to continue they can about the numbers. I think I have proven the numbers are fake, so there no point continuing the debate, so I leave this discussion in peace;)0 -
Cheerful Spring wrote: »If other posters want to continue they can about the numbers. I think I have proven the numbers are fake, so there no point continuing the debate, so I leave this discussion in peace;)
You've basically stuck your fingers in your ears and went 'Na na na na, I can't hear you!'
You haven't produced one shred of credible evidence to prove the numbers are fake.0 -
kunst nugget wrote: »You've basically stuck your fingers in your ears and went 'Na na na na, I can't hear you!'
You haven't produced one shred of credible evidence to prove the numbers are fake.
Why you dragging me back in
I used Dohnjoe own link to Reddit to prove it how he was wrong. He used this link thinking it backed up the 6 million number, it doesn't. If you understand the information you realise that.0 -
Richard Korherr 1.2 million Jews processed from 1932 to 1943 to Eastern European camps. 6 million died is fantasy.
Camps in Reinhard Operation
Bełżec
Sobibór
Treblinka
Chełmno
Majdanek
Auschwitz II
Ghetto European, and Jewish ghettos in German-occupied Poland including Białystok, Częstochowa, Kraków, Lublin, Łódź, Warsaw and others0 -
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You've been given several links to how the numbers have been arrived at and ignored them, instead choosing to use the same falsehoods peddled by holocaust deniers to 'prove' that everyone else is lying. Truly, victory is yours.0
This discussion has been closed.
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