Holocaust Denial [MOD NOTE POST #1]

Cheerful Spring

King Mob wrote: »

4 lies in a row. That's very impressive for a short post like that.

I never denied those numbers, I just denied your interpretation of them. Your interpretation of them comes from racist propaganda.
Regardless, those numbers were not an answer to the original question asked on this thread.
You ignored it repeatedly, then threw out a string of random lies and factoids that you were too lazy to actually write yourself, so you stole it from some randomer on the internet.

It's been pointed out that your behavior is showing people just how ridiculous and dishonest holocaust denial is.

What your interpretation of those numbers? You're wrong again these numbers were published by the Jewish committee in 1933. Is the Jewish committee of 1933 racist?

What original question?

King Mob

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

What your interpretation of those numbers?

Lol, not going to engage with your question after all your ducking, lying and dodging.

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

You're wrong again these numbers were published by the Jewish committee in 1933. Is the Jewish committee of 1933 racist?

Again, no. The youtube video you swallowed that told you these numbers disprove the holocaust is racist.

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

What original question?

Lol.
Sudden amnesia again?

Cheerful Spring

King Mob wrote: »

Lol, not going to engage with your question after all your ducking, lying and dodging.


Again, no. The youtube video you swallowed that told you these numbers disprove the holocaust is racist.


Lol.
Sudden amnesia again?

Why am I not surprised more deflection and refusal to answer a straightforward question.

King Mob

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Why am I not surprised more deflection and refusal to answer a straightforward question.

No, I gave you the chance to be straight forward and answer a simple direct question.
You are now pretending that the question does not exist.

Again, you've not done any research yourself. No one is going to believe you did.

pitifulgod

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

A genuine Holocaust survivor believes Weisel a fraud and stole his friend identity to become famous.

In 1986 a Swedish news paper arranged for him to meet what he thought would be his old friend. Instead it was Elie Wiesel, who Grüner claims he never saw before.”Wiesel refused to show me his tattoo. It was a very short meeting.”

And... Weisel is still viewed to be a genuine holocaust survivor. You're extraordinarily selective in terms of which accounts you recognise. Eg you don't accept primary sources on gas Chambers and furnaces.

cfuserkildare

The sad thing here is that the figures killed in the camps under Nazi occupation were TOTAL figures of all who died in the camps.
The camps held Huge numbers of people who were not Jewish too.
Black, Catholic, Mentally impaired, Sexual Deviants etc,
So the figure of 6 million dead inmates were a mix of people, not only Jewish victims.

kunst nugget

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Jews migrated from Europe to the Middle East, UK, America and South America during the period 1933 to 1950.

Jews left Europe for Palestine between the years 1946 and 1950. Remember the Jews themselves claimed in 1950 there were 4 million Jews still left in Europe and had not moved away to other countries.

I personally have looked into the increases in Jewish populations in other countries.

Can you show me evidence of these increases in other countries because I can't find it. As far as I can tell a couple of hundred thousand might have escaped but it wouldn't account for the gaping hole of many millions of Jews that vanished? The mass migration of Jews after the war is easy to find reference to but I can't find anything to support the notion that millions of Jews emigrated from mainland Europe during the war.

King Mob

cfuserkildare wrote: »

The sad thing here is that the figures killed in the camps under Nazi occupation were TOTAL figures of all who died in the camps.
The camps held Huge numbers of people who were not Jewish too.
Black, Catholic, Mentally impaired, Sexual Deviants etc,
So the figure of 6 million dead inmates were a mix of people, not only Jewish victims.

The death toll at Auschwitz was about 1.1 million people, of those around 1 million were Jewish.
Overall around 4-5 million more Jewish people were killed in other camps and in other ways.

A further 4-5 million other people were killed as well, making the total number killed by the Nazis around 11 million.

For some reason Holocaust Deniers only focus on the Jewish victims. Can't imagine why...

pitifulgod

cfuserkildare wrote: »

The sad thing here is that the figures killed in the camps under Nazi occupation were TOTAL figures of all who died in the camps.
The camps held Huge numbers of people who were not Jewish too.
Black, Catholic, Mentally impaired, Sexual Deviants etc,
So the figure of 6 million dead inmates were a mix of people, not only Jewish victims.

Nope, it's six million Jews. Goes up by millions when you add additional groups.

kunst nugget

Pew Research Center puts the numer of Jews in Europe in 1945 at 3.8 million, down from 9.5 in 1939.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/02/09/europes-jewish-population/

wexie

kunst nugget wrote: »

Can you show me evidence of these increases in other countries because I can't find it. As far as I can tell a couple of hundred thousand might have escaped but it wouldn't account for the gaping hole of many millions of Jews that vanished? The mass migration of Jews after the war is easy to find reference to but I can't find anything to support the notion that millions of Jews emigrated from mainland Europe during the war.

You can't find any evidence for the very simple reason that it's not there to be found. And that is because it didn't happen.

Maybe....a couple hundred thousand escaped mainland Europe during the war (I suspect that number to be on the high side to be honest, unless perhaps you include ones that got out in the run up to the war). Certainly during the war it would have been extremely difficult, dangerous and expensive.

And even at the start of the war when the rumours started coming many many people (jews included) simply couldn't believe it was actually happening and therefor didn't flee when they may have had the chance.

Cheerful Spring

kunst nugget wrote: »

Can you show me evidence of these increases in other countries because I can't find it. As far as I can tell a couple of hundred thousand might have escaped but it wouldn't account for the gaping hole of many millions of Jews that vanished? The mass migration of Jews after the war is easy to find reference to but I can't find anything to support the notion that millions of Jews emigrated from mainland Europe during the war.

First thing I never said millions of Jews left during the war. I was looking at how many Jews left Europe during the period from 1933 to 1950. Jew committee and other Jewish institutions claim 4 million Jews still left in Europe 1950. Jewish committee numbers are correct 9.4 million Jews lived in the entire continent of Europe in 1933

9.4-4 million still living in Europe in 1950 that's 5.4 million.

How many of 5.4 million people survived and emigrated left Europe during the period of 1933 to 1950?

kunst nugget

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Remember the Jews themselves claimed in 1950 there were 4 million Jews still left in Europe and had not moved away to other countries.

According to PEW, it was 3.8million in 1945 and the USHMM state that it was 3.5million by the time of 1950.

USHMM source: https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005687

wexie

King Mob wrote: »

A further 4-5 million other people were killed as well, making the total number killed by the Nazis around 11 million.

IF you don't include military casualties that is, or other war related civilian casualties such as disease, famine etc etc.

King Mob

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

First thing I never said millions of Jews left during the war.

This is a lie:

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

I just did from Holocaust memorial group claim 3.5 million Jews lived in Europe 1950. Other Jew sites say 4 million Jew still left in Europe in 1950.

The historical record is 9.2 million Jews lived in the entire continent of Europe just before Hitler came to power in Germany.

The Jews are not counting the millions of Jews who emigrated to escape the Nazis during 1933 to 1945 and after the war the Jews who left Europe for other countries.

You can't even get your own arguments right.

wexie

King Mob wrote: »

You can't even get your own arguments right.

What was it again....Oh what a tangled web we weave?

Cheerful Spring

kunst nugget wrote: »

According to PEW, it was 3.8million in 1945 and the USHMM state that it was 3.5million by the time of 1950.

USHMM source: https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005687

So there was no migration of Jewish people to other countries from 1933 to 1950? The numbers only work out if no Jews left Europe, that's fantasy.

Cheerful Spring

King Mob wrote: »

This is a lie:


You can't even get your own arguments right.

What you can't even read now? Did you miss the end of the sentence?

King Mob

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

What you can't even read now? Did you miss the end of the sentence?

Yes. I'm not sure how that changes anything.
You've contradicted yourself and lied about it.

Cheerful Spring

kunst nugget wrote: »

Pew Research Center puts the numer of Jews in Europe in 1945 at 3.8 million, down from 9.5 in 1939.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/02/09/europes-jewish-population/

So i was not misquoting the number I said 9.4 million Jewish people lived in Europe.
Even using your numbers
9.4-3.8 is 5.6 million. So where is this 6 million figure coming from? Did no Jewish people escape from Europe from 1933 to 1950? So the Jewish people who went to Palestine imposters?

Dohnjoe

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

Dohnjoe and King Mob I know it may feel as if it was a waste of time to engage someone like that, but keep in mind the objective isn't to change his mind, it's to reveal the (to be charitable) sophistry and disingenuousness that invariably looted behind these kinds of nonsensical theories. The rapid breakdown of his argument, from making one numbers claim to making a whole horde of them as distraction to simply copy pasting vast swathes of unattributed assertions about the existence of gas chambers (what happened to the original 4 million claim?), All of this isn't evidence of your failure, it's the closest thing to success that's possible. You've made the guy look a complete fool (again, being charitable, a less generous interpretation might be offered). Deep down he knows this. Well done.

Thanks. But some posters are clearly here to operate on bad faith. A forum like this has more lax rules to allow discussion of more outlandish theories - unfortunately that means it can be abused to "troll within the rules" for more serious stuff, like the Holocaust and so on

I'd rather ignore the white noise of tit-for-tat spam (because that's precisely what it is) for this particular thread and just put up some resources/facts

Cheerful Spring

King Mob wrote: »

Yes. I'm not sure how that changes anything.
You've contradicted yourself and lied about it.

You guys need help you even misquoting my posts now.

King Mob

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

You guys need help you even misquoting my posts now.

Nope. Direct quote.

Cheerful Spring

King Mob wrote: »

Nope. Direct quote.

Sure ignore this part of the sentence.
The Jews are not counting the millions of Jews who emigrated to escape the Nazis during 1933 to 1945 and after the war the Jews who left Europe for other countries.

Cheerful Spring

cfuserkildare wrote: »

The sad thing here is that the figures killed in the camps under Nazi occupation were TOTAL figures of all who died in the camps.
The camps held Huge numbers of people who were not Jewish too.
Black, Catholic, Mentally impaired, Sexual Deviants etc,
So the figure of 6 million dead inmates were a mix of people, not only Jewish victims.

The people on here refuse to even provide sources to account for 6 million Jews killed. They use deflection, half-truths and generalities.

kunst nugget

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

So there was no migration of Jewish people to other countries from 1933 to 1950? The numbers only work out if no Jews left Europe, that's fantasy.

37,500 through Spain - a large percentage went on to Portugal and America, 10,000 children to Britain, 7,000 Danish Jews to Sweden… 300,000 Polish Jews fled to Russia but tens of thousands of them were shipped to Siberia. The numbers that got out of mainland Europe are not large.

https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005470

So from what I can gather from reading the PEW estimates of 9.5 million in 1939 and the UHMM estimates of 3.8 million is that they were an estimated 5.7 million less Jews in mainland Europe - there were small amounts getting out in that time but nothing that made a substantial dent in the figures. 6 million is only and estimated figure and UHMM say up to 6 million because they can't be 100% accurate. Here is their breakdown of Jewish deaths in WW2:

Jewish Loss by Location of Death
With regard to the number of Jews who died in the Holocaust, best estimates for the breakdown of Jewish loss according to location of death follow:
Auschwitz complex (including Birkenau, Monowitz, and subcamps): approximately 1 million
Treblinka 2: approximately 925,000
Belzec: 434,508
Sobibor: at least 167,000
Chelmno: 156,000–172,000
Shooting operations at various locations in central and southern German-occupied Poland (the so-called Government General): at least 200,000
Shooting operations in German-annexed western Poland (District Wartheland): at least 20,000
Deaths in other facilities that the Germans designated as concentration camps: at least 150,000
Shooting operations and gas wagons at hundreds of locations in the German-occupied Soviet Union: at least 1.3 million
Shooting operations in the Soviet Union (German, Austrian, Czech Jews deported to the Soviet Union): approximately 55,000
Shooting operations and gas wagons in Serbia: at least 15,088
Shot or tortured to death in Croatia under the Ustaša regime: 23,000–25,000
Deaths in ghettos: at least 800,000
Other*: at least 500,000
*"Other" includes, for example, persons killed in shooting operations in Poland in 1939–1940; as partisans in Yugoslavia, Greece, Italy, France or Belgium; in labor battalions in Hungary; during antisemitic actions in Germany and Austria before the war; by the Iron Guard in Romania, 1940–1941; and on evacuation marches from concentration camps and labor camps in the last six months of World War II. It also includes people caught in hiding and killed in Poland, Serbia, and elsewhere in German-occupied Europe.

https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10008193

Can you counter that and tell me where the Jewish people actually went to if they weren't massacred in the Holocaust.

King Mob

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Sure ignore this part of the sentence.
The Jews are not counting the millions of Jews who emigrated to escape the Nazis during 1933 to 1945 and after the war the Jews who left Europe for other countries.

Yes. That's what you just denied saying.

First thing I never said millions of Jews left during the war.

Fairly certain the war was at some point between 1933 and 1945.

Cheerful Spring

King Mob wrote: »

Yes. That's what you just denied saying.



Fairly certain the war was at some point between 1933 and 1945.

It was a complete sentence did not end there with a full stop. You're ignored now you deliberately lying and misquoting my sentences. Do not respond to me again I will not answer.

King Mob

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

It was a complete sentence did not end there with a full stop.

I guess grammar is part of the Jewish Conspiracy too.

King Mob

Here's a good video of a prominent historian who discusses her experiences with Holocaust Denial.

She makes the case that Holocaust Denial is inherently racist. I agree to an extent, but I feel we have folks who innocently swallow the propaganda not thinking much of it's racist origins and underpinnings.