Holocaust Denial [MOD NOTE POST #1]

Dohnjoe

King Mob wrote: »

She makes the case that Holocaust Denial is inherently racist. I agree to an extent, but I feel we have folks who innocently swallow the propaganda not thinking much of it's racist origins and underpinnings.

As mentioned before, the fact that individuals ignore the other peoples, races and groups killed by the Nazis and only focus on revising down the numbers of Jewish killed is of itself very telling

Lipstadt was sued by Irving (well known author, Holocaust denier). Irving was famously eviscerated in the court case

In court, van Pelt's and Evans' testimony proved to be the most substantial. During cross-examination, Irving was unable to effectively undermine either Evans, who had been highly critical of his scholarship, or van Pelt, whose report focused heavily on the evidence that effectively contradicted the holocaust deniers' arguments about Auschwitz Birkenau.

Evans was assisted by two graduate students, Thomas Skelton-Robinson and Nik Wachsmann. In conducting the required research,[29] Evans and his two students took 18 months to write their 740-page report, finishing it in the summer of 1999.[25]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irving_v_Penguin_Books_Ltd

With the Judge summarising his findings

Irving has for his own ideological reasons persistently and deliberately misrepresented and manipulated historical evidence; that for the same reasons he has portrayed Hitler in an unwarrantedly favourable light, principally in relation to his attitude towards and responsibility for the treatment of the Jews; that he is an active Holocaust denier; that he is anti-Semitic and racist, and that he associates with right-wing extremists who promote neo-Nazism...[4][65] therefore the defence of justification succeeds...[5] It follows that there must be judgment for the Defendants.[66]

A lot of the discredited material and bunk that Irving relied on (like the Leuchter report) has already been copy-pasted into this thread

King Mob

Dohnjoe wrote: »

As mentioned before, the fact that individuals ignore the other peoples, races and groups killed by the Nazis and only focus on revising down the numbers of Jewish killed is of itself very telling

Leaving aside the correlation between conspiracy theories and antisemitism in general, I think this is more a product of it's origins than the opinions of the people who innocently believe it.
The people producing the conspiracy ideas are most certainly focused on the Jewish victims, so all the the convincing factoids that come out are likewise focused on that. And that's the product sold to the masses.

I'm sure there's a few conspiracies out there about the other minorities and the Holocaust in general, but they just don't get as much attention and backing.

Ipso

Another thing is thay by refucing the number if Jewish deaths people are also trying to steer away from the ant Semitic roots of the holocaust by making it more about political opponents of Nazism.

Cheerful Spring

cfuserkildare wrote: »

The sad thing here is that the figures killed in the camps under Nazi occupation were TOTAL figures of all who died in the camps.
The camps held Huge numbers of people who were not Jewish too.
Black, Catholic, Mentally impaired, Sexual Deviants etc,
So the figure of 6 million dead inmates were a mix of people, not only Jewish victims.

Auschwitz was the biggest camp the Nazis had during the war. And the estimated deaths at the camp have now got reduced from total 4 million figure to 1.5 million in 1990. And this 1.5 million figure included all inmates in the camp who died during the war including Jews. So how many Jews died at Auschwitz? You can't just increase deaths in other camps to make up the numbers later on. The 6 million Jews died is a myth a fable.

King Mob

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Auschwitz was the biggest camp the Nazis had during the war. And the estimated deaths at the camp have now got reduced from total 4 million figure to 1.5 million in 1990. And this 1.5 million figure included all inmates in the camp who died during the war including Jews. So how many Jews died at Auschwitz? You can't just increase deaths in other camps to make up the numbers later on. The 6 million Jews died is a myth a fable.

The figure of 4 million deaths was never taken seriously and it was NEVER included in the total of 6 million.

6 million deaths is well supported by mountains of evidence.

Cheerful Springs argument is a long debunked canard invented and spread by racist frauds like David Irving.

Cheerful Spring

Only other concentration camps alleged to have gas chambers was Treblinka, Belzec, Sobibor, Majdanek. Just going by Jewish Holocaust figures at these camps and they are highly inflated for propaganda purposes 1.8 million Jews got gassed or killed at these camps.

King Mob

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Only other concentration camps alleged to have gas chambers was Treblinka, Belzec, Sobibor, Majdanek. Just going by Jewish Holocaust figures at these camps and they are highly inflated for propaganda purposes 1.8 million Jews got gassed or killed at these camps.

Again, not "Jewish" holocaust figures.
Figures from historians doing actual research.

Cheerful Spring

King Mob wrote: »

The figure of 4 million deaths was never taken seriously and it was NEVER included in the total of 6 million.

6 million deaths is well supported by mountains of evidence.

Cheerful Springs argument is a long debunked canard invented and spread by racist frauds like David Irving.

Rubbish back that up with a source? 6 million number does include Jews killed at Auschwitz. There no possible way to account for 6 million Jewish deaths if Auschwitz was left out. Auschwitz was biggest concentration camp in Eastern Europe. Treblinka was second biggest.

King Mob

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

6 million number does include Jews killed at Auschwitz.

The 6 million figure includes 1 million deaths at Auschwitz.
The 6 million figure has never included the 4 million figure.

Again, your argument is long debunked racist twaddle.

Dohnjoe

King Mob wrote: »

Figures from historians doing actual research.

And the Nazi's themselves.

King Mob

Dohnjoe wrote: »

And the Nazi's themselves.

At this stage I won't be surprised that they'd be part of the conspiracy too now.

Pa8301

I don't understand the mindset of people who quibble with the numbers of holocaust deaths. What's their goal? Are they trying to claim that the Nazis were less murderous and evil because,according to these people, they killed slightly less people than claimed?

King Mob

Pa8301 wrote: »

I don't understand the mindset of people who quibble with the numbers of holocaust deaths. What's their goal? Are they trying to claim that the Nazis were less murderous and evil because,according to these people, they killed slightly less people than claimed?

Yea, pretty much.
Folks like David Irving are well known for trying to portray the Nazis as just really nice guys who either were vilified by the global Jewish Conspiracy, or were just doing there best to honorably fight against said conspiracy.

Others have just swallowed youtube videos without question and want to believe in a conspiracy theory.

Dohnjoe

Excellent overview on the figures here
https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/76avmk/how_do_we_estimate_the_number_of_jewish_deaths_in/

Reddit history and askhistorians sub are great resources as they are often confronted with revisionism

Another resource is the Korherr report (head of SS statistics bureau)
http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org/holoprelude/korherr.html (translated from German)

Cheerful Spring

King Mob wrote: »

The 6 million figure includes 1 million deaths at Auschwitz.
The 6 million figure has never included the 4 million figure.

Again, your argument is long debunked racist twaddle.

Whereabouts did you read 1 million Jews died at Auschwitz? Was it on a holocaust site again? Provide me with the work of a historian who researches this?

Frankly no the 6 million is debunked. When you count up the numbers killed at the other camps using Jewish holocaust figures the numbers gassed it just over 2.7 million( including Auschwitz in this number) You searching for another 3.4 million in the other camps that have no gas chambers.

Dohnjoe

Pa8301 wrote: »

I don't understand the mindset of people who quibble with the numbers of holocaust deaths. What's their goal? Are they trying to claim that the Nazis were less murderous and evil because,according to these people, they killed slightly less people than claimed?

In many cases they are anti-Semitic and want to downplay the numbers (in a ghastly attempt to "diminish" the event) or to portray the entire Holocaust as some sort of conspiracy by "the Jews"

In other cases they are anti-West, anti-Israel or anti-establishment and want to attack/discredit the historical consensus on the Holocaust in order to satisfy their personal views/beliefs or to attack modern day Israel/"Zionism" by proxy

King Mob

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Whereabouts did you read 1 million Jews died at Auschwitz? Was it on a holocaust site again? Provide me with the work of a historian who researches this?

Dohnjoe has provided this. I am sure you will promptly ignore it and pretend you never saw it.

Now again, the figure of 4 million deaths was never ever included in the total of 6 million.
You cannot provide a single source that does include this.
So the idea that the death toll was "revised" does not mean there is less than 6 million deaths.
The argument is utter crap.

Cheerful Spring

King Mob wrote: »

Dohnjoe has provided this. I am sure you will promptly ignore it and pretend you never saw it.

Now again, the figure of 4 million deaths was never ever included in the total of 6 million.
You cannot provide a single source that does include this.
So the idea that the death toll was "revised" does not mean there is less than 6 million deaths.
The argument is utter crap.

His links actually back up what I am saying according to an intercepted telegram the other alleged gas camps had 1.2 million Jews killed by 1943.

This is about right from the numbers I have accounted about 1.8 to 2 million died in these gas camps.

You still have to account for over 3 million Jews who were not gassed at these camps.

Harika

Pa8301 wrote: »

I don't understand the mindset of people who quibble with the numbers of holocaust deaths. What's their goal? Are they trying to claim that the Nazis were less murderous and evil because,according to these people, they killed slightly less people than claimed?

The far right wing aka nazis have the problem of the holocaust as it causes them to be unelectable. It makes them so unpopular in Germany that not even nazis want to be nazis. So if you remove the holocaust this problem disappears and would be able to come back into the political system.

Pa8301

Harika wrote: »

The far right wing aka nazis have the problem of the holocaust as it causes them to be unelectable. It makes them so unpopular in Germany that not even nazis want to be nazis. So if you remove the holocaust this problem disappears and would be able to come back into the political system.

With the sheer number of people killed I don't think you can magic away the numbers, no matter how hard some people try though.

kunst nugget

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

His links actually back up what I am saying according to an intercepted telegram the other alleged gas camps had 1.2 million Jews killed by 1943.

This is about right from the numbers I have accounted about 1.8 to 2 million died in these gas camps.

You still have to account for over 3 million Jews who were not gassed at these camps.

The figures I quoted in my previous post explain that if you read back over them. They put the total killed at the camps at about 2 and a half million.

Harika

Pa8301 wrote: »

With the sheer number of people killed I don't think you can magic away the numbers, no matter how hard some people try though.

It's not about 4 or 6 million, it is to sow doubt and muddy the waters to look away from the systematic extermination of people.
EDIT there is this joke where hitler and himmler are cloned and reborn and they discuss their new plan, and present it to Göbbels "we will do the same as before and kill 10 million Jews and one dentist". Göbbels asks "why one dentist?" so hitler turns to himmler and says "I told you no one asks about the 10 million Jews"

dr.fuzzenstein

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

First thing I never said millions of Jews left during the war. I was looking at how many Jews left Europe during the period from 1933 to 1950. Jew committee and other Jewish institutions claim 4 million Jews still left in Europe 1950. Jewish committee numbers are correct 9.4 million Jews lived in the entire continent of Europe in 1933

9.4-4 million still living in Europe in 1950 that's 5.4 million.

How many of 5.4 million people survived and emigrated left Europe during the period of 1933 to 1950?

And that is the the fake paper brick in your argumentation.
In 1950 the Jewish population in Europe was 3.5 million.
The pre war population was 9.5 million. This is according to:
https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/mobile/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005687

Wikipedia has it at 9.2 million at 1942 and 3.2 million in 1970.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_Jewish_population_comparisons

So your entire argument hinges on your incorrect statement of the Jewish population after the war.
Yes, people escaped, but it was not millions, more like tens of thousands.
https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/mobile/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005470

I've to take a shower now.

Cheerful Spring

kunst nugget wrote: »

The figures I quoted in my previous post explain that if you read back over them. They put the total killed at the camps at about 2 and a half million.

Again these are holocaust supporter numbers and they are highly inflated but we will work with what we got.

1 million at Auschwitz and another 1.5 million at the other gas camps is only 2.5 million. Where did the other 3.5 million Jewish people die?

None gas camps are just small camps with only few thousand were housed they were work camps. None of the other camps can account for 3 million Jewish deaths, they had no gas chambers to systematically kill Jewish people.

kunst nugget

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Again these are holocaust supporter numbers and they are highly inflated but we will work with what we got.

1 million at Auschwitz and another 1.5 million at the other gas camps is only 2.5 million. Where did the other 3.5 million Jewish people die?

None gas camps are just small camps with only few thousand were housed they were work camps. None of the other camps can account for 3 million Jewish deaths, they had no gas chambers to systematically kill Jewish people.

Like I said, they've given a breakdown of the other deaths and it's not down to the other camps to take up the numbers. If you can give me credible alternative numbers backed up by sources I'd like to see them.

indioblack

I can remember reading that there were 1.1 million deaths at the Auschwitz complex 40 years ago - I don't recall reading that it was ever 4 million.
If the Jewish population figures are wrong, including the dispersion and destination of these people, pre-war, during the war and post-war, then this was one hell of a conspiracy.
There have been plenty of first hand accounts of the activities in the various types of camps in the territories occupied by the Third Reich.
These accounts include deaths in gas chambers, the use of crematoria - a system of large scale extermination.
If it was put to me that the accepted figures for the incarceration of huge numbers of people, Jews and others - and the deaths of millions by the wars end - I would not think that unreasonable.

Cheerful Spring

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

And that is the the fake paper brick in your argumentation.
In 1950 the Jewish population in Europe was 3.5 million.
The pre war population was 9.5 million. This is according to:
https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/mobile/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005687

Wikipedia has it at 9.2 million at 1942 and 3.2 million in 1970.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_Jewish_population_comparisons

So your entire argument hinges on your incorrect statement of the Jewish population after the war.
Yes, people escaped, but it was not millions, more like tens of thousands.
https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/mobile/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005470

I've to take a shower now.

The Jewish population of Europe in 1950 was 3.5 million is not historically accurate. There nothing I can find another source from that time that backs up this claim. This number came from one man ( i forget his name now) a Holocaust researcher who claimed this. How he got that number your guess is good as mine.

One of the links is talking about the Torah and bible?

Realt Dearg Sec

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

And how do you know this number is accurate. The historians claim themselves the Nazis did not record deaths at the camp? So how did they calculate numbers based on nothing? Are we saying no Jews emigrated to different countries from 1933 to 1950? Did they all wait to be captured and be sent to camps? Did Jews not go to Palestine after the war?

The Jews themselves claim there were 3.5 to 4 million Jews in 1950 still in Europe. And they are going to low ball the number.
https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005687

Even doing the rough math on that 9 million Jews Europe 1933 -4 million = 5 million. 1 million less than 6 million.

And this while ignoring immigration of Jews to different countries from 1933 to 1945 and after the war 1945 to 1950 to America, Israel and South America. Million of Jews from Europe emigrated.

6 million figure is nonsensical it doesn't add up in way possible.

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

The Jewish population of Europe in 1950 was 3.5 million is not historically accurate. There nothing I can find another source from that time that backs up this claim.

If you don't believe the credibility of that source, why were you the first one on this thread to quote it?

Cheerful Spring

kunst nugget wrote: »

Like I said, they've given a breakdown of the other deaths and it's not down to the other camps to take up the numbers. If you can give me credible alternative numbers backed up by sources I'd like to see them.

Its pure speculation based on nothing by Holocaust researchers. Historians are afraid to touch this subject because of the taboo and afraid to be labeled anti-Semitic for talking about the Holocaust.

Auschwitz had 2.5 million imaginary deaths accounted for. Took them 45 years to change the numbers to 1.5 million from 4 million.

Cheerful Spring

kunst nugget wrote: »

Like I said, they've given a breakdown of the other deaths and it's not down to the other camps to take up the numbers. If you can give me credible alternative numbers backed up by sources I'd like to see them.

Its pure speculation based on nothing by Holocaust researchers. Historians are afraid to touch this subject because of the taboo and afraid to be labelled anti-Semitic for talking about the Holocaust.

Auschwitz had 2.5 million imaginary deaths accounted for. Took them 45 years to change the numbers to 1.5 million from 4 million.