Holocaust Denial [MOD NOTE POST #1]

Cheerful Spring

kunst nugget wrote: »

You've been given several links to how the numbers have been arrived at and ignored them, instead choosing to use the same falsehoods peddled by holocaust deniers to 'prove' that everyone else is lying. Truly, victory is yours.

What you people failed to notice. Richard Korherr was the head of the SS statistics bureau and he says 1.2 million Jews were processed from 1932 to 1943 (Guided through the camps in the General Government) this includes all the gas camps in occupied Poland including Auschwitz.

Holocaust supporters claim Auschwitz is not included even though the General government is referring to Nazi-occupied Poland. This is disingenuous ommission by the person who wrote that Reddit post.

Dohnjoe

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Richard Korherr 1.2 million Jews processed from 1932 to 1943 to Eastern European camps.

Correct

6 million died is fantasy.

Incorrect

As mentioned earlier there is no point explaining numbers to someone who will repeatedly reject/ignore/distort them for personal reasons

For everyone else, to summarise what I posted previously:

The Korherr report gives us details of those killed in operation Reinhard camps. Separately and not contained in the Korherr report are the killings by the Einsatzgruppen squads in Russia and on the frontline. Then there is Auschtwitz.

Those combined are approx 4.5mm. Most documented. The ghetto killings brings it up to approx 5mm.

and..

And then there is the last million so to speak, that is comprised of individual deaths on transports, deaths in the Reich and other territories that were not part of larger killing scale actions like individual arrests, German caused famine in the Soviet Union, and also, crucially, the deaths caused by other Axis members such as Romania, which killed at least 170.000 if not 240.000 Jews, Croatia, Bulgaria, and others.

https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/76avmk/how_do_we_estimate_the_number_of_jewish_deaths_in/

Which brings the figure to approx 6mm (between 5.4 and 6.2 for most estimates)

Cheerful Spring

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Correct



Incorrect

As mentioned earlier there is no point explaining numbers to someone who will repeatedly reject/ignore/distort them for personal reasons

For everyone else, to summarise what I posted previously:

The Korherr report gives us details of those killed in operation Reinhard camps. Separately and not contained in the Korherr report are the killings by the Einsatzgruppen squads in Russia and on the frontline. Then there is Auschtwitz.

Those combined are approx 4.5mm. Most documented. The ghetto killings brings it up to approx 5mm.

and..


https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/76avmk/how_do_we_estimate_the_number_of_jewish_deaths_in/

Which brings the figure to approx 6mm (between 5.4 and 6.2 for most estimates)

Wrong whoever wrote that reddit post is ignorning what was said.

Korherr report talks about the camps in General Government of the Occupied Polish Areas. To leave Auschwitz out is disingenuous it located in occupied Poland controlled by the Nazis.

Cheerful Spring

This what Korherr said.

Der Reichsführer-SS hat Ihren statistischen Bericht über "Die Endlösung der europäischen Judenfrage" erhalten. Er wünscht, daß an keiner Stelle von "Sonderbehandlung der Juden" gesprochen wird. Auf Seite 9 muß es folgerndermaßen heißen:
"Transportierung von Juden aus den Ostprovinzen nach dem russichen Osten:

This part we looking for
Es wurden durchgeschleust
durch die Lager im Generalgouvernement...
durch die Lager im Warthegau..."
Eine andere Formulierung darf nicht genommen werden...

They were guided [through]
through the camps in the General Government
through the camps in the Warthegau [one of the provinces in occupied Poland]

Before you ask Auschwitz is not a camp in Warthegau.

Overheal

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Did not stop Irish people from dying and having no money to buy food.

But it was by no means a genocide. Let's leave it there.

Cheerful Spring

Holocaust supporters are mixing events up to support their view.

Korherr report is talking about Jews processed from 1932 to 1943 through camps in Poland.

Who wrote that piece clearly does not understand the difference between the Reinhard operation and the Korherr report.

I laughing here just thinking about this nobody noticed the guy was mixing up different events?

beaufoy

Evidence points to very few Jews being murdered, testimony points to very large amount of jews being murdered. The truth is probable somewhere inbetween

King Mob

beaufoy wrote: »

Evidence points to very few Jews being murdered, testimony points to very large amount of jews being murdered. The truth is probable somewhere inbetween

Nope, all evidence points to a number close to 6 million Jewish people being killed.
All historians are in agreement on this.

The truth is that a lot of Jews were murdered.

Cheerful Spring

King Mob wrote: »

Nope, all evidence points to a number close to 6 million Jewish people being killed.
All historians are in agreement on this.

The truth is that a lot of Jews were murdered.

You should write a letter to them and show them this thread;)

Dohnjoe

beaufoy wrote: »

Evidence points to very few Jews being murdered, testimony points to very large amount of jews being murdered. The truth is probable somewhere inbetween

Historians go a good bit further than that.

For example at the main camps (camps setup during operation Reinhard plus Auschwitz and associated camps)




1.1 mm Jews estimated killed by SS death squads

https://www.hdot.org/debunking-denial/ezg5-number-killed/

As mentioned before the numbers of Jews killed in the various ghettos

Which brings it up to over 5 million. After that it becomes more difficult, documentation more sparse - they are trying to count the numbers killed during transport, in other countries a part of the Axis, etc

So the estimates range between (using the figures from r/askhistorians) 5.4 to 6.2, with the commonly accepted figure of approx 6 mm (or 5 to 6 mm to be more pedantic)

beaufoy

King Mob wrote: »

Nope, all evidence points to a number close to 6 million Jewish people being killed.
All historians are in agreement on this.

The truth is that a lot of Jews were murdered.

Some historians disagree and are put in prison so doing so

King Mob

beaufoy wrote: »

Some historians disagree and are put in prison so doing so

Exceedingly rarely are they historians.
They are random people who do no use historical research. They are racists and conspiracy theorists who use deception, lies and bull**** to make their arguments, then whine like babies when they are called out.

No historian has been put in jail for arguing for the lower end of the scale when they use actual historical evidence.

Holocaust deniers are like wise free to do so as well. But they don't cause they can't support their views that way.

And in some countries, then get punished for their lies. Good I say. They're ****ing nazis.

Cheerful Spring

Got proper numbers now

The total evacuations resulted in the Reich area incl.
Eastern territories and beyond in German power and
river area in Europe from October 1939 or later until
31.12.1942 following numbers:

Evacuation of Jews from Baden
and the Palatinate to France ....... 6 504 Jews
2. Evacuation of Jews from the Reich
Including Protectorate and
Bialystok district to the east ......... 170 642 "
3. Evacuation of Jews from the Reich
territory and the protectorate
to Theresienstadt ................. 87 193

4. Transporting Jews out of the
Eastern provinces on the Russian
East: ............................ 1 449 692 [/B]"
It was passed through
through the camps in general
Government ..................... 1,274,166 Juden
through the camps in the Warthegau ..... 145 301

So about 1.5 million Jews were transported to the East on Trains from the period of 1939 to the start of 1943.

This would still fall short of 6 million deaths and nowhere in this report claiming 1.5 million were killed on arrival.

I let dohnjoe explain where the other 4.5 million Jews were caught? If you look at his own table his numbers are from 1939 to 1944

beaufoy

Historian definition is — Define historian: a student or writer of history
The definition covers both you and me, and I have qualifications in the subject of history
Sorry I don't understand the rest of your answer...try re-writing

King Mob

beaufoy wrote: »

Historian definition is — Define historian: a student or writer of history

Nope. Someone qualified with relevant degrees who are engaged in actual research. (Again watching youtube is not research)

If your definition held, then everyone is a scientist as well, and I guess that means that some scientists think the world is flat.

beaufoy wrote: »

The definition covers both you and me, and I have qualifications in the subject of history

Great, what research have you done into the holocaust that causes you to doubt it?
(Again, I mean actual research, not youtube or random racist propaganda sites)

beaufoy wrote: »

Sorry I don't understand the rest of your answer...try re-writing

Which part do you not understand?
That Holocaust deniers don't use evidence, but instead dishonest tactics and propaganda?
Or that I don't feel particularly sorry for them when they are punished for being nazi assholes?

Cheerful Spring

King Mob@ I just provided you with the Der Korherr-Bericht stats around 1.4 million Jews ended up in camps in the east including Auschwitz by the start of 1943. Dohnjoe numbers are inflated.

6-1.4= 4.6 million Jews still. 6 million number doesn't hold up.

You used the Der Korherr-Bericht report and believed it was credible have you not?

Overheal

beaufoy wrote: »

Historian definition is — Define historian: a student or writer of history
The definition covers both you and me, and I have qualifications in the subject of history
Sorry I don't understand the rest of your answer...try re-writing

But have you published any papers on the topic?

beaufoy

Overheal wrote: »

But have you published any papers on the topic?

No I am frightened if I write the truth I could go to prison

beaufoy

King Mob wrote: »

Nope. Someone qualified with relevant degrees who are engaged in actual research. (Again watching you tube is not research)

If your definition held, then everyone is a scientist as well, and I guess that means that some scientists think the world is flat.

It is not my definition it comes from most dictionaries


Great, what research have you done into the holocaust that causes you to doubt it?
(Again, I mean actual research, not youtube or random racist propaganda sites)

Best research is the same as in courts, you listen to both arguments examine the evidence, and then make an informed decision. The holocaust non believers evidence is not very strong, but it is a lot stronger than the evidence submitted by the people who believe the holocaust happened


Which part do you not understand?
That Holocaust deniers don't use evidence, but instead dishonest tactics and propaganda?
Or that I don't feel particularly sorry for them when they are punished for being nazi assholes?

Do you punish the jews/nazi assholes who question the Holocaust


Sorry I cannot continue with these posts, I might have to visit germany next year on business, and they could put me in prison for writing the truth

Overheal

beaufoy wrote: »

No I am frightened if I write the truth I could go to prison

Ah now. I know the UK charged the guy for the Nazi dog but I don’t think they’re going after people just yet for going Galileo if you have a well intentioned, well researched, peer reviewed paper you want to go and publish. So that’s not much of an excuse, tongue in cheek or otherwise.

Perhaps you best bow out of this thread entirely of this is a real concern for you; Boards.ie is itself prone to having to comply with search warrants for IP information after all. :rolleyes:

pitifulgod

beaufoy wrote: »

Do you punish the jews/nazi assholes who question the Holocaust


Sorry I cannot continue with these posts, I might have to visit germany next year on business, and they could put me in prison for writing the truth

I have qualifications in history too. It's not very difficult to get them and plenty of people are still incredibly ignorant at the end of the degree. You and CheerfulSpring have no credible research to back you up. It's also very telling when people start to question the existence of furnaces and gas chambers...

wexie

beaufoy wrote: »

Sorry I cannot continue with these posts, I might have to visit germany next year on business, and they could put me in prison for writing the truth

No they won't, not if you can actually back up it and prove it to be the truth. But I suspect that might be somewhat problematic

dr.fuzzenstein

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

I would not agree with this at all the British treated the Irish badly in the 1800's, must not have learned this in school? The took the national wealth from this country and demanded Irish people pay high rents, the very poor could not afford to buy food from elsewhere to feed their families. When they could not afford the rent the British landowners then kicked them out and died miserably from starvation and disease.

Israel will be treated fairly when they act civilised. They are abusing their power by shooting unarmed Palestinians in the back for protesting and still continuing a blockade of 1 million + people and denying them human rights. Israel has engaged in false flags for years the attack on USS liberty is now known to be a covert operation to blame on Egypt and drag America into a war. Mossad motto is By way of deception thou shalt do war"

So THAT is is you motive!
You disagree with the current politics of Israel and will therefore cheapen or talk down the holocaust.
You figures and arguments have been destroyed, you have nothing left, so you resort to whatabaoutery in form of the Famine. This NOT about anything else, this is about the holocaust, a well documented, historical fact.
It's people like you that are part of a new right-wing movement in Europe that echoes what happened in the 1920's and early 30's. Or at least you're unwittinlgy playing into their hands and supporting them.
There has to be another agenda, why else is it so important to you to discredit one particular historical fatc? Are you just a random conspiracy nutter that thinks Obama is a lizard and the Illuminati are controlled by the grey aliens? A flat Earther? Anti vaccer?
You don't seem like the regular room temperature IQ, knuckle-dragging, mouth-breathing far right asshole currently spreading throughout Europe*.
To me this is not a joke or fun conspiracy theory. This is not some far-off historical event that merely has symbolic significance.
Through the generation of my parents and grandparents I have heard first hand accounts of the war. One of my teachers was missing an arm, my grandfather on my father's side had a dent in his head and still shrapnel embedded in it from the eastern front. My grandfather on my mother's side was the stoker on a train that was straffed by allied fighters (he survived by climbing under the train, had the hit the boiler, he would have been broiled). A guy I worked with was a prisoner in a French prison camp. My own mother and Grandmother survived a mortar exploding right on front of them. Had they stood one step closer or further away, they would have been collanders.
They told me of people who disappeared, shops that had the "Juden" sign, people who disappeared, never to be seen again, you could not speak ill of the regime, neighbours spied at your window to check you weren't listening to an illegal broadcats by the Allied forces, in short, you have no idea!
I know people who have SEEN Reichskristallnacht, buddy, I tell you I take VERY personal offence at pretty much anything you said on this thread.
This is no joke.


*They're not so easy to recognise these days. In the 90's they used to be skinheads, marching and shouting slogans. Today they are far more insidious. Dressed in suits, no tats, winning smiles and hiding their hatred of people of the wrong color, religion or country of origin behind concern and seemingly reasonable reasons. Vipers, every last one of them and seemingly the people of Europe seem to piss themselves in excitement at this development as if the next war or holocaust can't come fast enough

edit:
I bow out of this before I say something I regret.

The Bishop Basher

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

This would still fall short of 6 million deaths and nowhere in this report claiming 1.5 million were killed on arrival.

Who gives a ****

I don't have any history degrees but I visited Buchenwald as a teenager and the experience never left me. I remember the tour guide telling us we couldn't smoke and had to stay quiet out of respect but there was no need. From the second we walked in not one of us made a sound. It was eerie. You could sense the evil that went on there and Buchenwald was far from the worst of them if you can use that term.

I saw the ovens and the trolleys that fed the bodies into them.. They're still there.. Go have a look for yourself.

I also went to listen to Tommy Reichental recently and bought his book. His was the first time i ever heard a first hand eye witness account of the events as he witnessed them. Most of his family were killed. It's a facinating but tragic story told by a very humble man. I recommend you take the opportunity if it comes your way.

I brought my kids to see the Anne Frank House in Amsterdam recently. I hadn't been for years. They place has changed a lot and is far more geared for tourists now but that doesn't lessen the impact of walking through those rooms and reliving the absolute nightmare that it must have been being Jewish in occupied Holland and waiting for that "call".

I despise Israel today and it's illegal land grab and genocide of the Palestinian people. It sickens me that the Jewish people who suffered so much loss in such recent history would be the very ones to repeat the same atrocities on another people. I would even question the legitimacy of Israel as a state.

But as bad as they are now, as hypocritical as it may appear and as angry as you might be about the current situation, none of that changes the fact that the Holocaust is a matter of historical record. There is no doubt about what happened and the numbers murdered are horrific regardless of who's account you go with..

I think you're letting your anger about today's issues cloud your judgement of the past. It might serve you better to try and separate the 2 events.

Dohnjoe

beaufoy wrote: »

Some historians disagree and are put in prison so doing so

Different historians have different figures

e.g.
Lestschinsky - 5.9 mm
Bauer/Rozett - 5.8 mm
Gilbert - 5.75

Depends on their research, methods, new information, etc

Denialism is something completely different and is not based on legitimate research or historical method

King Mob

beaufoy wrote: »

It is not my definition it comes from most dictionaries

So then some scientists believe in the flat earth, therefore the flat earth idea could be true.

beaufoy wrote: »

Best research is the same as in courts, you listen to both arguments examine the evidence, and then make an informed decision. The holocaust non believers evidence is not very strong, but it is a lot stronger than the evidence submitted by the people who believe the holocaust happened

You've done no research on the topic then as an actual historian.

beaufoy wrote: »

Do you punish the jews/nazi assholes who question the Holocaust

I don't punish anyone. But I'm not going to shed a tear for the nazis who deny the holocaust happened and spread lies and misinformation.

beaufoy wrote: »

Sorry I cannot continue with these posts, I might have to visit germany next year on business, and they could put me in prison for writing the truth

No you won't. The law isn't used to go after randomers who buy the conspiracy garbage. It's for dicks like David Irving.

Dohn Joe posted some examples of actual historians who argue the number is lower than others.
Why are they not arrested?

The answer is they are doing actual research using actual evidence. They are not denying like folks like Irving.
Questioning the Holocaust is fine. Denying the holocaust happened based on racist propaganda is not.

Cheerful Spring

pitifulgod wrote: »

I have qualifications in history too. It's not very difficult to get them and plenty of people are still incredibly ignorant at the end of the degree. You and CheerfulSpring have no credible research to back you up. It's also very telling when people start to question the existence of furnaces and gas chambers...

Don't think so I just used research by holocaust supporters to back up what I said. This was ignored and not surprised, by that. When you can't debunk the evidence attack the person!

Cheerful Spring

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Different historians have different figures

e.g.
Lestschinsky - 5.9 mm
Bauer/Rozett - 5.8 mm
Gilbert - 5.75

Depends on their research, methods, new information, etc

Denialism is something completely different and is not based on legitimate research or historical method

Again numbers don't match up with Korherr-Bericht report and the number of Jews transported from occupied Europe to the East from 1939 to 1943.

Korherr clearly states in his report 1.4 million (350,000 Jews per year) Jewish people were processed from all Reich lands to the East from the period 1939 to 1943.

Most of the Jewish people will be caught in this time period, the only numbers not accounted for are Jews living in the Soviet Union.

Harika

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Again numbers don't match up with Korherr-Bericht report and the number of Jews transported from occupied Europe to the East from 1939 to 1943.

Korherr clearly states in his report 1.4 million (350,000 Jews per year) Jewish people were processed from all Reich lands to the East from the period 1939 to 1943.

Most of the Jewish people will be caught in this time period, the only numbers not accounted for are Jews living in the Soviet Union.

Korherr denied to have written that report, so you really want to use that as source?

Cheerful Spring

Harika wrote: »

Korherr denied to have written that report, so you really want to use that as source?

Was this report not handed to Heinrich Himmler in January 1943? What your source for this info?