Compulsory HCAP - Cancelled

Grizzly 45

cavan shooter wrote: »

a few years ago this would have been a done deal,
What is the story with the IDMF, and how did they get away with it.?

"For Evil to triumph, good men need do nothing."As Mr Burke once said..And to take it in context, while there was so much inner conflict and division, anything could have been slipped past the Irish shooter.Houses divided cannot stand.

ayagerard

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

"For Evil to triumph, good men need do nothing."As Mr Burke once said..And to take it in context, while there was so much inner conflict and division, anything could have been slipped past the Irish shooter.Houses divided cannot stand.

and a big thank you to you too my friend but for you picking this up on fb this could have slipped through unnoticed putting a very sour taste in our mouths in january, for now we stand a fighting on this , the statement from the nrgc highlights one thing in particular to me they are not singing from the same him sheet the idmf have not discussed this in detail with all members

Hunter456

from NARGC facebook page

is that all they have say, be waiting awhile to get an update. prepare to be absolutely shafted by the people who are suppose to represent us.

We are aware of concerns being expressed regarding the HCAP requirement for deer hunting licences. The NARGC is on the case.
More as things unfold. J.T.(PRO)

cavan shooter

Hunter456 wrote: »

from NARGC facebook page

is that all they have say, be waiting awhile to get an update. prepare to be absolutely shafted by the people who are suppose to represent us.

We are aware of concerns being expressed regarding the HCAP requirement for deer hunting licences. The NARGC is on the case.
More as things unfold. J.T.(PRO)

No check out their website.

https://nargc.ie/hunter-competence-assessment-programme-hcap/

Resistance is futile

cavan shooter wrote: »

a few years ago this would have been a done deal,
What is the story with the IDMF, and how did they get away with it.?

They'll have to be careful which "ordinary shooting guy " they send some of their Track records aren't great . Some are just nodding dogs

meathstevie

The membership numbers of the NARGC is what will ultimately matter the most to any politician. A point that in my opinion can not be overstated while engaging in discussions with the Minister or her representatives.

Whatever Coilte and those willing to pay a small fortune to do their pest control agree between themselves is a matter that should not affect all of us.

Aside from that, the airs and graces of those trying to make the HCAP out to be the pinnacle of deer hunting training is just simply ridiculous.

If the Minister believes that hunters should have some sort of formal qualifications she should not look for a slap dash solution implemented by the back door from a vested interest but look for a sensible and impartial system of training and qualification that benefits hunter, landowner, wildlife and the government. Until such a time no attempts to fix what's not broken should be made.

Grizzly 45

TBH, I'd rather it just returns to the Status Quo, of those who want to shoot in Coilte lands, go do the HCAP and leave the rest of us alone. Any sort of movement to training, private or otherwise is just going to cost us at some point.

Be it financially or legislatively. I was looking at that IMF questionnaire from this year's license applications again, and all I can see in it is IDMF making money for whomever ideas. GPS marking for deer kills, E license, Tagging, and license fees...All on an upwards sliding scale over the years... There is the IDMF and the Coilte/NPWS and Dept of heritage, whatever. pound of flesh payment.And I'm just beginning to wonder, are we being distracted by the "jangling keys" syndrome?

Playing the Devils Advocate here a moment...But would any other courses coming in here be any cheaper or easier to do?Looking at the BASC course it's more complex in the theory and still the same shooting standard as HCAP, but twice the price in Sterling.[God help us all, if a German company came in here with a course!] HCAP is literally "foolproof" as has been said, and we need to ask ourselves IFthis becomes law, do we want to be deer stalkers out hunting, or do we want to be extensively trained, out of our own pockets? academics out there paying for ridiculous ideas for our sport?

So this could go four ways I think.
1] HCAP as it stands becomes compulsory and we all grumble, pay up and do an idiot-proof test,[at the moment] and get stung with IDMF/Govt idiot projects to pay themselves and justify their existence

2] Some form of education becomes mandatory, no matter what, and we end up with probably two or three choices and companies, and probably a Dept specific of what the course must entail..This could be a hideously complex, or idiot-proof specification. And we get stung with IDMF/Govt idiot projects to pay themselves and justify their existence

3]We return to status quo.HCAP goes back home to Coilte with a "recommendation" that all new hunters or those with less than five years licenses,are to do the HCAP.And we get stung with IDMF/Govt idiot projects to pay themselves and justify their existence.

4] HCAP becomes compulsory, with an exemption or a 70% points awarded to those with licenses held in Ireland for five years or more or an EU equivalent hunting license.Which we will have to fight for like the 3rd monkey on the ramp into the Ark.And we get stung with IDMF/Govt idiot projects to pay themselves and justify their existence.

The common point here is folks,I think we are going to end up paying no matter what for the IDMF existence IF this comes into existence.:(

cavan shooter

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

TBH, I'd rather it just returns to the Status Quo, of those who want to shoot in Coilte lands, go do the HCAP and leave the rest of us alone. Any sort of movement to training, private or otherwise is just going to cost us at some point.

Be it financially or legislatively. I was looking at that IMF questionnaire from this year's license applications again, and all I can see in it is IDMF making money for whomever ideas. GPS marking for deer kills, E license, Tagging, and license fees...All on an upwards sliding scale over the years... There is the IDMF and the Coilte/NPWS and Dept of heritage, whatever. pound of flesh payment.And I'm just beginning to wonder, are we being distracted by the "jangling keys" syndrome?

Playing the Devils Advocate here a moment...But would any other courses coming in here be any cheaper or easier to do?Looking at the BASC course it's more complex in the theory and still the same shooting standard as HCAP, but twice the price in Sterling.[God help us all, if a German company came in here with a course!] HCAP is literally "foolproof" as has been said, and we need to ask ourselves IFthis becomes law, do we want to be deer stalkers out hunting, or do we want to be extensively trained, out of our own pockets? academics out there paying for ridiculous ideas for our sport?

So this could go four ways I think.
1] HCAP as it stands becomes compulsory and we all grumble, pay up and do an idiot-proof test,[at the moment] and get stung with IDMF/Govt idiot projects to pay themselves and justify their existence

2] Some form of education becomes mandatory, no matter what, and we end up with probably two or three choices and companies, and probably a Dept specific of what the course must entail..This could be a hideously complex, or idiot-proof specification. And we get stung with IDMF/Govt idiot projects to pay themselves and justify their existence

3]We return to status quo.HCAP goes back home to Coilte with a "recommendation" that all new hunters or those with less than five years licenses,are to do the HCAP.And we get stung with IDMF/Govt idiot projects to pay themselves and justify their existence.

4] HCAP becomes compulsory, with an exemption or a 70% points awarded to those with licenses held in Ireland for five years or more or an EU equivalent hunting license.Which we will have to fight for like the 3rd monkey on the ramp into the Ark.And we get stung with IDMF/Govt idiot projects to pay themselves and justify their existence.

The common point here is folks,I think we are going to end up paying no matter what for the IDMF existence IF this comes into existence.:(

You make a very valid point, and I agree but I think eventually it will come. If and when a compulsory course comes about, think it needs to be fit for purpose and only after proper consultation. Why do you need a HCAP if for example your shooting on your own land?

What pisses me off is the fact that once again it was a done deal.I dont think sufficient debate has been entered into for example.

1. Is the HCAP suitable/fit for purpose?
2. Do I need a HCAP if I have a DSC level 1 or a German qualification or whatever.

I'm upset they turned around and said you must have HCAP (Full Stop) to me its the thin end of the wedge which needs to be fought both on the sole supplier argument and the actual need.

If it is deemed there is a requirement for a course that covers knowledge of deer, including aspects such as hunting regulations and the law then it doesn't matter who produces it once the syllabus covers what is required.

Then we don't get fkcd over as there are numerous suppliers and the cost becomes reasonable.

solarwinds

If coillte want it as a requirement to hunt on coillte lands thats fair enough, that is their land and can impose whatever they want.
The problem i see is that they are now trying to dictate to private individuals such as farmers and private forrestry owners who they can and cannot allow onto their own property. Its a bit much that you have to tell a farmer sorry i can no longer shoot deer on your property because some state body says im not allowed.
Is that farmer, land owner not entitled to let whoever he sees fit onto his own property to carry out a service for him. If a state body requires hcap for state lands thats their choice. But i cannot see how they can impose this on privately owned property.

Grizzly 45

solarwinds wrote: »

.

Is that farmer, land owner not entitled to let whoever he sees fit onto his own property to carry out a service for him. If a state body requires hcap for state lands that's their choice. But i cannot see how they can impose this on privately owned property.

And THAT is the whole crux to this..The State doesn't own the deer or the land[more or less] in private possession.So how can they dictate this?Looking at the minutes and this "agreement " in the IDMF.I would like to know how this consensus was agreed and on what basis of facts were presented that it was needed outside state forests?Apart from "Everyone else has one...Why dont we?" rationale?

Grizzly 45

Remember that questionare that came out with the liscense application form this season?The one that over 70% filled in without thinking of the consequences?They were asking permission from us to cut our throats!:mad::mad::mad::mad:From the IDMF website[current]
IDMF Recommendation 2
Mandatory Certification of Hunters

1. “That the IDMF recommend to the Minister for Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht and the Minister for Agriculture, Food & the Marine that Certification of Competency from an accredited source in knowledge of wild deer species, disease recognition, management, culling and safe methods of control, together with marksmanship and safe usage and storage of firearms, be a mandatory requirement before the grant of a licence to hunt wild deer; and that mandatory certification be introduced on a phased basis over a five year period commencing on the 1st day of January 2018 for existing holders of deer hunting licences, and with immediate effect from the same date for all new applicants for deer hunting licences”.

IDMF Recommendation 3
National Database of Deer Hunting Returns

A new database, which is in the current NPWS charter, is required. This would comply with current EU legislation and be more effective and efficient for license holders in addition to assisting the administration of the system by NPWS staff.
The greatest obstacles to upgrading are:

• Resources — a budget is required to develop and implement the new system
• Staff shortages — the Wildlife Licensing Unit have lost a number of staff in recent years who have not been replaced
An efficient online system would significantly reduce time and costs spent on paperwork and internal communications with regard to individual licences and returns. It would also lead to a more reliable dataset with respect to numbers of deer shot, which is critical data in relation to the management of the national herd.

The following recommendations with regard to a modern, online system would be:

• A unique ID number for all license holders on a swipe card with photo ID which can be used to renew the license online.
• A tagging system similar to that used for livestock – Tags can be issued with the ID and carcass numbers
• The onus would be on the license holder to submit accurate returns as failure to do so
• should result in fines and/or the license being revoked.
• Legislation, i.e. the Wildlife Acts and Data Protection requirements need to be addressed
• before an online system is developed and implemented.
• Environmental data such as the location where the deer was shot, species and sex, will give
• considerable added value to the information supplied.
• A license fee should be considered to defray costs associated with the administration of
• licenses


As we have pointed out and they admitted here themselves.Two critical bits of legislation have not been addressed!!! Until these points are not addressed,we do not as citizens have to cooperate with them.Its our personal data thy are handling and until they say how it will be stored,accessed or used.We do not have to provide it under law.

meathstevie

See the remark about a licence fee, there should be no fees for shooting one or two per season for the freezer. If you want to defray costs charge for a commercial licence for hunting tourism operators and stick a €50/head tag on every deer going into a game dealer.

cavan shooter

meathstevie wrote: »

See the remark about a licence fee, there should be no fees for shooting one or two per season for the freezer. If you want to defray costs charge for a commercial licence for hunting tourism operators and stick a €50/head tag on every deer going into a game dealer.

That's one way to stop poaching. Similar to the way they do it for salmon. As soon as it's shot you tag it.
When you apply for your license you get two tags As part of the fee for the license.
You want to shoot for profit/ commercialisation of deer hunting then you buy the tags.

Do you actually see the Deer head sheds doing that it's like turkeys voting for Christmas. It's easier for them to look to ban lamping of foxes than upset the apple cart. There is a guy I know who boasts about making a couple of grand per year shooting deer. On the flip side I know lads who shoot for the freezer the farmers freezer where he has permission and will offer you venison if you want it.

ayagerard

cavan shooter wrote: »

That's one way to stop poaching. Similar to the way they do it for salmon. As soon as it's shot you tag it.
When you apply for your license you get two tags As part of the fee for the license.
You want to shoot for profit/ commercialisation of deer hunting then you buy the tags.

Do you actually see the Deer head sheds doing that it's like turkeys voting for Christmas. It's easier for them to look to ban lamping of foxes than upset the apple cart. There is a guy I know who boasts about making a couple of grand per year shooting deer. On the flip side I know lads who shoot for the freezer the farmers freezer where he has permission and will offer you venison if you want it.

in theory tagging looks good but it did not stop cattle crossing the border when the price was better above and wont stop poaching or export, if they did any research on this they would know all they have to do is ask the department of agri , and it wont be the guy with 2 for the pot that will be switching tags, what you need here is tractability from field to fork , hunter shoots deer, tags with electronic tag with tissue sample and sends to npws stating for fridge or dealer, dealer registers carcass sell for export or restaurant , restaurant when asked has to produce and display animal no witch dealer bought from , export number must balance with dealer number , hence discrepancies 2+2 cant make 6
but who will enforce this , they cant deal with what they have on their plate as it is, no one has put a creditable proposal forward for how to finance any of the proposals put forward by idmf ,??? only like leaches they want to suck the last few bob out of it , why have we not heard how many extra rangers they will be able to employ to enforce these new regulations ,i have not met with a ranger or talked with one in 4 yrs not a jeep or a van have i seen , and i can throw a stone by hand into a national park i honestly think if poaching and sales to dealers was stopped we would have a national problem with deer numbers exploding , farmers going ballistic, then with the indiscriminate culling off vermin that is what coillte think of our deer, the man shooting a few for the pot does not need this **** more red tape, they wont drive 200 miles to play x and o games to be raped by this crowd ,they are not breaking the law now but what will be there status in 5 years if this is implemented ,what percentage of dhl actually shoot deer it is easier got than fork out 300 to join a range and with that in mind i think the numbers of animals on the ground is a lot less and i would think less are being shot but no one has counted them they don't have the resources

ayagerard

i forgot to also mention if this is implemented with be it 2 -3 - 4 other mandatory courses that will be deemed to be needed ,and they have no more money to get we will be thrown to bord bia to finish us off it needs to be put to sleep permanently like the night time shooting ban ,it is not fit for purpose and serves no one

Grizzly 45

u

nter shoots deer, tags with electronic tag with tissue sample and sends to npws stating for fridge or dealer, dealer registers carcass sell for export or restaurant, restaurant when asked has to produce and display animal no witch dealer bought from , export number must balance with dealer number , hence discrepancies 2+2 cant make 6

And that will be 250 Euros plus VAT per tag, please.If that kind of a system is to land on our laps,no doubt with a 1000 euro annual license admin fee to cap it all off. Look at how shoddy our most important bit of paperwork is, our gun licenses.They are a flipping joke, made by the cheapest printer possible..And now we have these clowns suggesting electronic deer licenses and tags that make the US fish&game tags look ridiculous?Honestly...Who thinks this sht up?Because there is no concept of viability and price to get it up and running..But no problem as WE WILL have to pay for it.
Plus I have no intention of becoming an unpaid data collector for this organisation with their extra paperwork requirements.If they want that info.Swop your suits&ties and lab coats for your wellies and camo outfits and get up on the hills and get it yourselves!

Grizzly 45

Left this over on the WADI contact us box.Plase, feel free to copy &pase or add to and send to them as well as IDMF.

Dear Sirs, or to whom it may concern.As your organisation is trying to make it compulsory for HCAP to become mandatory for deer stalking in Ireland.Could you please answer the following questions for me?
1] Are you registered with the data protection commissioner?I can find no record, as neither can the DPC office of your participation?Might I remind you that it mandatory for any organisation, and one especially dealing with a govt remit to be so registered? As you are handling personal data of Irish people and have been since 2003.I assume you are?If so please provide your DPA user number to relive my fears and that I might be assured my data is safe with you?
2] Could you also provide a statement of data usage and for what purposes it is used?Who has access to it?How is it stored?And how may I correct it under your organisation?
3] What is the method of appeal or complaint in your organisation for any disputes and decisions arising from the HCAP test either theoretical or practical aspects?
4] as the EU rules of commonality of official documentation applies here in Ireland.Why is it your policy not to recognise qualified stalkers resident in Ireland with other EU qualifications? EG German hunting license, UK Stalkers, etc?
I await your answers in due course
Sincerely.

Cass

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

The common point here is folks,I think we are going to end up paying no matter what for the IDMF existence IF this comes into existence.:(

cookimonster wrote:

You make a very valid point, and I agree but I think eventually it will come. If and when a compulsory course comes about, think it needs to be fit for purpose and only after proper consultation.

For me i'm not opposed to a course. I might seem like i'm fighting it just because they want us to do a course, but it's not that. I'd support a course, hell i'd even learn from one, and at this point a course of some sort will be coming. The ship on that point has well and truly sailed.

My objections, some of which i listed previously:

Cass wrote: »

Some ask why the opposition. Well here ya go. My reasons for opposing it.

1. The NPWS and Deer Alliance have no authority to introduce any mandatory courses.
2. There is no legislation in place to support this.
3. An SI (someone floated the idea) cannot supersede primary legislation, of which none exists (for this exact topic).
4. The HCAP was introduced for shooters on Coilte land. It is a CYA exercise.
5. The HCAP was written by deer stalkers so what are their qualifications? I don't mean 30, 40, 50 years shooting, i mean registered, verifiable, qualifications.
6. Coilte demand this cert, but what official recognition does it have (An Gardaí, DoJ, DoE, DoA.R.H.GA., etc)
7. Where does the money go? Even now, presently, who gets it and how is it spent?
8. Introducing proficiency as a prerequisite for a license is a dangerous precedence. How do you measure proficiency, what national standards are there, and who determines it's met (leads back to the qualifications of those deeming how proficient a person is).
9. It will not combat poaching.
10. Poaching is a criminal act, and those that do it are already breaking the law. How will further legislation stop those already intent on breaking the current laws?
11. More legislation is not needed, only enforcement of the current legislation which comes under the guise of more rangers and stronger punishment for those caught.
12. **This one is less factual and more emotive** I'ts my gun, licensed by An Gardaí who deem me competent, and private permissions given to me by land owners so the deer alliance have no say in what i do.

......... have since grown with time. Grizzly_45 and some other lads that contacted me have brought up other issues and made me think about yet more. Such as:

1. Under whose authority, and where, is this demand for mandatory courses coming from? The vested parties (NPWS, WDAI, Deer Alliance, etc) cannot make such demands legally and the Minister has distanced herself and her department from them. So who is making this mandatory?
2. If competence is required by law and those running the courses, currently, have no official accreditation, then what makes those with 10, 15, 20+ years experience, but no hcap, incompetent and in need of a hcap?
3. The data protection issues or lack thereof
4. The unregulated nature of the course and those running it. As its not recognized by any Dept and has been declared as "not administered by us" by the Dept of A.H.G.RA.
5. Either it's a monopoly which breaks Irish and EU law or its open for all in which case other groups can run their own version.
6. There was no tender process. With some €600,000 up for grabs over the next 5 years the deer alliance cannot call itself the "only game in town" and expect to have unfettered control over the course
7. If a tender process is not necessary then once again it opens it up to others to run their own course. (This would seem likely as the deer alliance tried to insinuate that anyone trying to run an opposing course is in it only for the money. See point 10 of their rebuttal).
8. How does the actual course measure up in terms of effectiveness and against other such courses that are recognized internationally (DSC2, etc).
9. If "or equivalent" from Coilte's handbook and "Show competence" in the 1976 Act are to be believed then a similar certification from England, Scotland, Germany, France, etc, etc. must be recognized.
10. How are the private land owners and those that shoot on it affected by a hcap course? The land owners do not benefit from whether a hunter has a hcap or not and if some loose out on shooting due to not having a hcap the land owner will look elsewhere to rid their land of what most view as vermin.

Cass

cavan shooter wrote: »

Why do you need a HCAP if for example your shooting on your own land?

Exactly.

What pisses me off is the fact that once again it was a done deal.I dont think sufficient debate has been entered into for example.

What pisses me off is the fact people are accepting this as a done deal. Even in the NARGC reply they say the introduction of a mandatory course.

I'll ask this again and throw it out to anyone that can answer it or at least try to as i cannot.

Why/how is this a done deal? By whose authority? Minister Humphreys has said the deer alliance are the only group currently running this course, that they DO NOT have a monopoly on it, and no course is administered by her department (meaning they don't endorse, regulate or recognize it).

The idea of a mandatory course was brought about by a working group of interested parties all to do with deer. The NPWS, Deer Alliance, WDAI, etc. have a vested interest in deer stalking, but none of them, not even the NPWS, can legislate and NONE of them can make a course mandatory without Ministerial SI or change to the Wildlife, and possibly firearms, Act.

They [deer alliance] say no change is necessary but still have not said where the authority to mandate for a compulsory course has come from? It cannot be any of the groups listed above so where does it come from?

Then we don't get fkcd over as there are numerous suppliers and the cost becomes reasonable.

Exactly.

If the four ranges currently with 100 yard ranges ran their own version the ranges would receive all the proceeds which could go back into the ranges. With more ranges developing the facilities for this course it can be run country wide and everyone would get a fair shout. This would increase the amount and frequency of the courses and drop the price per course.

Resistance is futile wrote: »

https://nargc.ie/hunter-competence-assessment-programme-hcap/
Here it is hot off the press it looks like there was no knee jerk reaction to this . A meeting was held apparently Thursday night . At last some real leadership from the organization . Sometimes silence doesn't mean accent , sometimes it just means thinking is going on

The thing that springs to mind about their statement is it counters the Deer Alliance claim that they [deer alliance] and the other vested interest parties kept everyone informed all along the process. If the NARGC who sit on the FCP and other working groups did not know then what chance had ordinary shooters?

Grizzly 45

Plus if you look at the minutes, the NARGC lad was absent from one of the most critical meetings. on the IDMF.This IDMF seems to be another secret society, where things are decided in trilouges going by their minutes. They announced this plan in 2015, but seem to think it was just a done deal, or it would be just accepted.
Even though they themselves admit that the DPA and wildlife act needs to be changed...
So where does it leave us the stalkers right here&now, who have to pay in the end one way or the other for all this?

Cass

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

So where does it leave us the stalkers right here&now, who have to pay in the end one way or the other for all this?

For me its simple enough, for now, and i'll try not to repeat the obvious too much.

The people saying this is mandatory are not an official or recognized body. They have no legislative power and have no legal basis with which to call for or implement a mandatory course.

There is no law saying i must have the hcap or any course for that matter, only that i can show competence. 15 years of stalking and 30+ years of hunting shows my competence coupled with the same time frame with firearm ownership authorised by An Gardaí.

With the Daíl in recess shortly until the middle of January and no legislation, either primary or secondary, on the cards there is no legal basis for them to enact any mandatory courses by the "deadline" of January 2018. So for these reasons and all the previous reasons listed in my other other posts i will not be acting and i call on everyone else not to rush to do any courses just yet.

A course will come into effect at some point, but before it is made mandatory i want to see:

• Open dialogue between all parties and not just those with vested interests in Deer who seem to believe they have sole rights to control a sport and species which by law belongs to no one.
• An open invitation to all shooting bodies, hunting related or not, to attend any working groups. Like the FCP.
• All proposals to be made public and a reasonable amount of time for rebuttals or countenance to any proposals, allowed. Not weeks, but months.
• Names of all groups and their representatives recorded in the minutes of any meeting and available without FOI request (redacting personal details such as phone numbers, e-mail, home addresses, etc.)
• Any decisions for mandatory courses must be supported by legislation (Primary or secondary) and the announcement made by the Minister. No more dodging the issue and hoping it'll sort itself out.
• Courses must have official recognition by the relevant State department. This should include those who already hold a HCAP, and those wo hold the equivalent or higher from abroad.
• Courses must be regulated.
• Courses must be audited to determine suitability of the course itself and those running it.
• Those running courses must have the facilities in place to carry out the courses including adequate trained staff, safety, full liability cover, accountability, and traceability.

garrettod

Cass wrote: »

....With the Daíl in recess shortly until the middle of January and no legislation, either primary or secondary, on the cards there is no legal basis for them to enact any mandatory courses by the "deadline" of January 2018. So for these reasons and all the previous reasons listed in my other other posts i will not be acting and i call on everyone else not to rush to do any courses just yet. ....

Agree with that and actually think we need to get a bit more proactive about this, we should be putting some pressure on the Minister for example.

My more immediate concern is that the Gardai, or the Parks and Wildlife, will start looking for evidence of this course having been completed because they heard somewhere that it was mandatory... that needs to be stopped, before it even starts !

Resistance is futile

garrettod wrote: »

Agree with that and actually think we need to get a bit more proactive about this, we should be putting some pressure on the Minister for example.

My more immediate concern is that the Gardai, or the Parks and Wildlife, will start looking for evidence of this course having been completed because they heard somewhere that it was mandatory... that needs to be stopped, before it even starts !

Is it time then perhaps for someone to apply for one of these licences with nothing but his deer calibre rifle and the boots on his feet and put it to the test.
I'm not a stalker and am not sure how this goes but I'm afraid as has been said on this forum by countless contributors that this may be the thin edge of the wedge and must be opposed for all hunting/shooting sports . What's next a range test to shoot clays ? If you miss three out of ten is your license refused then mandatory lessons ensue . I know the argument is there about the respect of live quarry but where will it end

Grizzly 45

For it to be more effective you need it to be a group effort.Doesn't have to be a massive crowd, but 4plus is needed.You can probably forget deer hunting in 2018 plus a few years until there is a ruling on the matter.But is it worth doing so that your sons can continue to hunt?
The only thing that worries me at this time of year in the Dail is the tendency to rush thru things undebated and almost under the radar as everyone gets into holiday mode.
For those old enough to remember the rod license war of the 1980s, that was the first opening move at this time of year.So I wouldn't be surprised if the same stunt is tried again.

Resistance is futile

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

For it to be more effective you need it to be a group effort.Doesn't have to be a massive crowd, but 4plus is needed.You can probably forget deer hunting in 2018 plus a few years until there is a ruling on the matter.But is it worth doing so that your sons can continue to hunt?
The only thing that worries me at this time of year in the Dail is the tendency to rush thru things undebated and almost under the radar as everyone gets into holiday mode.
For those old enough to remember the rod license war of the 1980s, that was the first opening move at this time of year.So I wouldn't be surprised if the same stunt is tried again.

I shouldn't prove that difficult to get one applicant from each of the different shooting disciplines/organizations . Deer society/nargc /rifles and pistols

garrettod

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

....The only thing that worries me at this time of year in the Dail is the tendency to rush thru things undebated and almost under the radar as everyone gets into holiday mode..

All the more reason to be applying pressure on the Minister, let her see that she's not going to get away with just slipping this one through before they all skip off for a bit of Christmas lunch etc.

RossiFan08

garrettod wrote: »

All the more reason to be applying pressure on the Minister, let her see that she's not going to get away with just slipping this one through before they all skip off for a bit of Christmas lunch etc.

Was there a pre written email I can copy & paste and send on? Can't seem to find one in the thread

Cass

garrettod wrote: »

My more immediate concern is that the Gardai, or the Parks and Wildlife, will start looking for evidence of this course having been completed because they heard somewhere that it was mandatory... that needs to be stopped, before it even starts !

Absolutely no law saying it is mandatory so they can ask all they like, short of telling them to f**k off you can politely ask them to go away with that noise.

garrettod wrote: »

All the more reason to be applying pressure on the Minister, let her see that she's not going to get away with just slipping this one through before they all skip off for a bit of Christmas lunch etc.

Slipping what through?

It's not law, there is no legislation in the pipeline and no current legislation demands a course be done.

The Minister has allowed a private, unregulated group (not even a company) to dictate certain things which have no legal basis. So we cannot actually protest about something that has not been enacted.

We can protest the implementation of such a course without following correct procedure. That we shouldd and MUST do.

RossiFan08 wrote: »

Was there a pre written email I can copy & paste and send on? Can't seem to find one in the thread

None that i can remember and not to sound egotistical but if you look at post 229 above it covers all the reasons and faults of why the course cannot go ahead as things stand.

Use that as your template keeping it almost the exact same as the bulletin points i listed as they [Minister's office and others you send it to] don't like to read novels. Keep the "emotive" bits to a minimum and leave out any accusations or nay saying as they don't like to read that kind of stuff.

Hunter456

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Left this over on the WADI contact us box.Plase, feel free to copy &pase or add to and send to them as well as IDMF.

Dear Sirs, or to whom it may concern.As your organisation is trying to make it compulsory for HCAP to become mandatory for deer stalking in Ireland.Could you please answer the following questions for me?
1] Are you registered with the data protection commissioner?I can find no record, as neither can the DPC office of your participation?Might I remind you that it mandatory for any organisation, and one especially dealing with a govt remit to be so registered? As you are handling personal data of Irish people and have been since 2003.I assume you are?If so please provide your DPA user number to relive my fears and that I might be assured my data is safe with you?
2] Could you also provide a statement of data usage and for what purposes it is used?Who has access to it?How is it stored?And how may I correct it under your organisation?
3] What is the method of appeal or complaint in your organisation for any disputes and decisions arising from the HCAP test either theoretical or practical aspects?
4] as the EU rules of commonality of official documentation applies here in Ireland.Why is it your policy not to recognise qualified stalkers resident in Ireland with other EU qualifications? EG German hunting license, UK Stalkers, etc?
I await your answers in due course
Sincerely.

I highly think that email will not be acknowledged. I'll be shocked if you get an answer.

Grizzly 45

Method to the madness.. I just need 3or 4 other people to do it as well about 3 times and just note what dates they sent it in..;)