Compulsory HCAP - Cancelled

Cass

Sent to the Deer Alliance:

To whom it may concern.

Can you please explain why you are STILL stating that the HCAP is mandatory for all persons, and not just those intending on using Coilte lands, as and from January 1st 2018 when the Minister made it perfectly clear in her statement on November 21st 2017 (link below) that no such mandatory course is required?

https://www.npws.ie/news/statement-minister-certification-licensed-deer-hunters


She [the Minister] made it perfectly clear that a course may/will be introduced by no later than 2020 however no current course is mandatory in January or anytime in the near future, and that includes the HCAP.

To continue to publish articles and make statements to the contrary is wrong and misleading people into believing that if they don’t take the HCAP they will not be able to gain a license from January 2018 on.

I have contacted the Minister’s office, accompanied by a screenshot and link to the notice on your website, asking her office to clarify if her statement on November 21st still holds true and if so why you [the Deer Alliance] are continuing to spread word to the contrary.

I very much look forward to your reply.

Cass

Sent to the Minister's office:

Dear Sir/Madam.

Could you please clarify the current status/validity of the statement made by Minister Humphries on the 21st November 2017 regarding the implementation of a training course for anyone wishing to gain a license for deer hunting by 2020.

https://www.npws.ie/news/statement-minister-certification-licensed-deer-hunters

Does this position still hold true?

My reason for seeking clarification is because the Deer Alliance who run the current HCAP course are posting, as recently as December 11th 2017, on their website that anyone seeking a deer hunting license (DHL) from January 1st 2018 onwards MUST have a HCAP certification even if they do not intend to shoot on Coilte lands.



This assertion will undoubtedly lead people to believe their course is a requirement for new entrants to the sport and force them [the new applicants]
to take a course they believe to be mandatory when in fact it is NOT. They [the deer alliance] not only seen the Minister's statement form November 21st 2017, but also replied to it on their website, so there is no doubt they knew the current standing.

http://deeralliance.ie/blog/2017/11/





I have contacted the Deer Alliance asking for them to clarify their statement, correct the contents of the statement, or if necessary remove it entirely. While awaiting a reply, if one is forthcoming, i thought it prudent to also confirm that the previous position of the Minister [Humphries] as linked to above still holds true.

I very much look forward to your reply.

Thanking you in advance.

Feel free to copy and send it yourself or something similar.

Cass

I received a reply to my e-mail which says they "inadvertantly" put up that information. Having checked the website this morning that section was removed, but is now replaced with an almost similar section.

In it they claim almost the exact same thing but instead of saying you must have the hcap they now say a hcap will be required but "not necessarily" on january 1st.

This is essentially the same hyperbole. Unless they have met with, and secretly agreed with the new Minister on a plan to enact such a course they cannot say with any certainty that a course will be due shortly into the new year

Cass

They were not impressed that a few others wrote to them using my format above. It was mentioned in their reply that they were replying to me and others at the same time as the wording of our e-mails were idnetical for, in their own words, "Whatever reason".

The reason is simple, i want as many people as possible to know what you are doing and if that means sending the same query then so be it.


I was once again told the law, section 28 of the 1976 act, demands competence be shown. However this wrong, or at least the way they interpret it. Section 28 makes no such demands, but section 37 of the 2000 amendment act, which amends section 28 does so they might have a point but i won't let them away with anything however pedantic it may seem.

Section 37 of the 2000 act says:

An Applicant may, before the granting of any such licence or the granting or renewal of any such certificate, be required to supply satisfactory evidence that the applicant is a competent person to hold such a licence.

(b) The evidence required under paragraph (a) of this subsection shall include the ability to identify certain species of fauna and to have a satisfactory knowledge of the relevant provisions of the Wildlife Acts, 1976 and 2000, and of any instruments made under those Acts.

So first off the section says "may" be required not is required.

Secondly when applying for a firearm which i deem a far more serious thing than a deer license you can show competence to An Gardaí via four methods:

1. Training license
2. Previous firearm experience
3. Written support from current firearm holders
4. Competency course

So why is the hcap the supposed only way to show competence? Surely i could do so with:

1. Being a currently licensed deer stalker for however many years
2. Previous stalking experience (from years ago, but not recent)
3. Written letters of support from currently licensed deer hunters having attended stalks with them for a few years before going "solo".
4. Stalking experience and qualification from another country which includes a superior "hcap" style testing having been completed.

The law still does not say i must have a course done and the Deer Alliance's insistence that no law needs changed or written to enact such a course is wrong.

• If there is no law requiring me to have a mandatory course done then i cannot be refused a license for not having done such a course.
• If caught out deer stalking without a course done there would be no punishment under any law/act.
• It would essentially be set of best practice guides rather than a legal requirement.

So to make it an offence the primary legislation needs to be amended which cannot be done with an SI (secondary legislation).

Cass

Make no mistake with a new Minister the deer forum will make another run at this. A course will most likely become necessary at some point but i sure as chips don't want to see it in the hands of a private group that has made these dealings in secret along with other so called deer groups to privatize a sport they have and should never have any control over.

Grizzly 45

Of course, they will make another run at this...This is why I keep saying We ourselves need to be in the running and sitting at the ministerial table giving a counterproposal or course.But seeing that there was no original govt tender for this or what was requirements for the course content with govt approval.It is kind of hard to put together anything.

From a reply, I got to the or other " and EU qualifications
not being acceptable if you live in Ireland



[QUOTE, However, under
current provisions hunters permanently resident in Ireland are required to
hold HCAP or equivalent as it can easily be seen that the hunting
framework, including legislation affecting wildlife and firearms ownership
and usage, differs substantially from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. This
point hardly needs expansion at this time.[/QUOTE]

IOW No matter how good your qualification is, so much that you could be teaching us, we insist on you doing our course.

Conspiracy theory time
I wonder is their trump card the threat of withdrawing all HCAP registerd stalkers from Coilte and providing a paying and free culling service if they don't get their way with this?

ayagerard

Cass wrote: »

Make no mistake with a new Minister the deer forum will make another run at this. A course will most likely become necessary at some point but i sure as chips don't want to see it in the hands of a private group that has made these dealings in secret along with other so called deer groups to privatize a sport they have and should never have any control over.

a crowd of chancers, the scraping of a burnt pot would be better ,preaching what is best for the wild deer when in practice all the are worried about is their own gain in monetary value ,money
the irish deer forum was set up to make (suggestions and recommendations ),
beyond that they have no power, but these guys are judge jury & executioners ,for their self gain , any minister with any credibility or self respect would distance her self from these vultures
time and time again they have highlighted what their interests are ,with no or little money now to be made from this they would drowund a nation to keep them selves a float :mad:
is there any way to find out who was sitting around the table when these proposals were voted on, to be put forward, which members were present , who voted ( yea ) and who voted (na ) what percentage /17 was it unanimous , or was it 3 in attendance motion carried unanimously ,what other suggestions or recommendations have they put forward for the betterment of the wild deer , ?????????????, this latest stunt only highlights to what end they will go for money , the cant be still in denial they have thought about this ,this shows intent ,:o

Damoeire33

https://www.facebook.com/groups/197338737265837/permalink/557801864552854/?comment_id=557962297870144&reply_comment_id=558028621196845&notif_id=1513256420763107&notif_t=group_comment


Their still not giving up on this money making racket

Grizzly 45

ayagerard wrote: »

is there any way to find out who was sitting around the table when these proposals were voted on, to be put forward, which members were present , who voted ( yea ) and who voted (na ) what percentage /17 was it unanimous , or was it 3 in attendance motion carried unanimously ,what other suggestions or recommendations have they put forward for the betterment of the wild deer , ?????????????, this latest stunt only highlights to what end they will go for money , the cant be still in denial they have thought about this ,this shows intent ,:o

Posted back on this thread the meetings from 2014 to 15.

https://www.agriculture.gov.ie/forestservice/forestservicegeneralinformation/deermanagement/irishdeermanagementforum/
Oh deer hunters were represented alright, but by people with no remit from the majority of Non-Coilte stalkers.As for what the NARGC were doing is unknown as Mr Doris was absent in 2015. So NARGC is somewhat complicit in this mess too.

Found this in their policy document 2nd draft on the same website as above...Intresting ....

5.4 Policy must ensure that appropriate training for hunters must satisfy the needs of
recreational hunting, and should also be of sufficient standard to be capable of satisfying
the needs of professional operators. Training and assessment must be independent, and
subject to accredited certification. Those providing the training must be suitably
qualified and accredited to do so.

So now it can be ligitametly asked here..Who has trained the trainers of HCAP?Also Devil is in the details...
"Policy must ensure that appropriate training for hunters must satisfy the needs of recreational hunting" So what do we as recreational hunters" Need" in training?? Seriously...What do you folks think we need in training?? Or better put what would be the bare minimum you would accept to be classified as a stalker here?

ayagerard

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Posted back on this thread the meetings from 2014 to 15.

https://www.agriculture.gov.ie/forestservice/forestservicegeneralinformation/deermanagement/irishdeermanagementforum/
Oh deer hunters were represented alright, but by people with no remit from the majority of Non-Coilte stalkers.As for what the NARGC were doing is unknown as Mr Doris was absent in 2015. So NARGC is somewhat complicit in this mess too.

Found this in their policy document 2nd draft on the same website as above...Intresting ....

5.4 Policy must ensure that appropriate training for hunters must satisfy the needs of
recreational hunting, and should also be of sufficient standard to be capable of satisfying
the needs of professional operators. Training and assessment must be independent, and
subject to accredited certification. Those providing the training must be suitably
qualified and accredited to do so.

So now it can be ligitametly asked here..Who has trained the trainers of HCAP?Also Devil is in the details...
"Policy must ensure that appropriate training for hunters must satisfy the needs of recreational hunting" So what do we as recreational hunters" Need" in training?? Seriously...What do you folks think we need in training?? Or better put what would be the bare minimum you would accept to be classified as a stalker here?

so the 3 meetings were held on the following dates march 31, may 5, june 16 , 2015 correct yes/ no , and these were the only meetings held by this group the idmf , yes /no, well mr norris shows as been in attendance in all 3 meetings , it was suggested that he was missing absent https://www.agriculture.gov.ie/forestservice/forestservicegeneralinformation/deermanagement/deermanagepolicyvision2nddraft/ these are the submisions put forward , if any one has a day to spend in doors

Grizzly 45

Well spotted sir...I thought they were 3 meetings over three different years!:o:o
Ok, in reading thru these submissions from the top down 1,3[very important],12,16,19 are the important ones.

Paul Cullen's submission is well worthwhile reading as he is obviously writing as a stalker,not a beuracrat,or organisation or white coat. He hit the nail squarely, stating that the "deer societies" have been around for 30 plus years and basically done SFA in that time and that the non Coilte/HCAP hunter has no representation at these conferences is an extremely valid point.
So the summation I can get so far from a once over lightly reading of this sofar is....
2012 hysterical panic about massive deer numbers, Dept and NPWS puts out draft proposals with lots of beuracy and regulatory proposals that verge on the point of lunacy and comedy.With of course the stalkers paying for everything, as usual
[Thank fuk for the recession at the time] Tags at 100 euros for stags and having to join local Deer management Units are some of the crackpot ideas.
[2012] a QUARTER of deerstalkers are in Coilte forests according to our friends of;
Irish Deer Society
Wild Deer Association of Ireland
Wicklow Deer Management & Conservation Group
Countryside Alliance Ireland
Deer Alliance HCAP Joint report
Although CAI issue their own as well yaying for HCAP too.
In fairness to the collective them; they do tell the Govt where to get off on alot of issues and money-spinning ideas.

So a lot of paperwork, talk and noise ensues and then.........Crickets[to the public eye]........Until 21017 annual deer license renewals....

To sum it up and compare it to the target shooting scene.It seems there are some agendas going on here in our shooting and farming organisations..both on the hunting scene and the Govt dept... IOW Situation Normal For Ireland ..All Fuked up![SNFIAFU]

ayagerard

1.2: The Hunter Competence Assessment Programme (HCAP) was latmched in April 2005
following four years of careful development which included the production of a Stalker
Training Manual.
1.3: Since HCAP's introduction in 2005, some 1200 licensed deer hunters have undertaken
the Programme on a voluntary basis and at the time of writing approximately 1000 candidates
have been HCAP-Certified.
1.4: At the time of writing, a revised Training Syllabus is under consideration by the Deer
Alliance Assessment Committee, with a view to introduction early in 2012. The revised
Training Syllabus will comprise a set number of hours training and preparation, to include a
new Food Safety Module under development in conjunction with the Food Safety Authority
of Ireland.
2: DEER ALLIANCE POLICY ON ASSESSMENT, CERTIFICATION AND THE
ISSUE OF DEER HUNTING LICEDNCES.
2.1: It is the policy of Deer Alliance HCAP that HCAP certification (or equivalent) should be
a prerequisite for all holders of or applicants for any licence to hunt wild deer in Ireland.
2.2: Deer Alliance HCAP has actively promoted this policy to the National Parks & Wildlife
Service and to successive Ministers since inception in 2005 and is committed to achieving
this objective within the Hfetime of the current Govemment. Deer Alliance HCAP is
optimistic that this objective will finally be achieved within this stated time frame.
3: DEER ALLIANCE HCAP PARTICIPATION IN FORMULATION OF DEER
MANAGEMENT POLICY
3.1: It follows from Point 2.1 and 2.2 above that as and when a requirement for mandatory
certification is adopted by NPWS, the framework within which a majority of deer hunters
operate will change radically. At the time of writing, approximately one in four licensed deer
hunters are HCAP-Certified, and have undergone some level of training and a measurable
level of assessment as to competency. A further substantial number of licensed hunters,
totalling 3000 or more, will need to become HCAP-Certified over a lead-in period expected
to take three to five years e.g. all new licence applicants to be certified before grant of
licence, and all existing licence holders to become HCAP-Certified with a three to five year
period (to be decided).

well folks i am kinda slow when it comes to finding my way around a computer or a web site like woody-wood -pecker he was in my eara the computers didn't come for 15 more years till i seen one in school , with the above statement i have a couple of questions by their own admission,
570,000 euro from 3000 proposed 100,000 collected +10,000 from repeats what proposals recommendations have the put forward with regard to all that money from a nonprofit enterprise, is it not time the other stake holders raised their heads and recognised this shower for what they are , or is this what has happened ????? no meeting since 16-6-2015 and a minister that flushed them down the loo for 2 more years and stated for new applicants only , hoping the smell would go away , no one but this lot is pushing this crap it serves no purpose on private ground and the the only purpose it then serves is money, (for who ???) what have they or any deer organisation in the history of the state done for deer , wildlife ,hunters, research , to date no one can say how many deer are on the ground are the numbers up or down with ,the harsh reality being they don't care, i would love to be at the next meeting of the idmf when ever that will be, never i hope as it is not fit for purpose , biased to vested private interests, with all this **** floating around i would wounder who would be paying for dinner and who could swallow it ( sorry lads this money is ours we're keeping it ,get your own)

Cass

Three reasons for bumping this.

1) I have gotten some information relayed to me by another member that is as interested as the rest of us in finding out the details of this debacle, but am awaiting ok from the legal dept before allowing it to be published. Just so lads don't think this has been forgotten about.

2) I see 47 people have been listed as eligible for the MCQ part of the "course". The numbers break down like this:

• 13 - People who applied in 2016 or 2017 but never sat the course.
• 28 - People who applied in 2017 after the last date for testing.
• 6 - People who applied this year.

Other than the possible data protection issues, this brings me onto some observations on each category.

• The 13 people that applied in 2016 and 2017 who never sat the MCQ have handed out €150 and now have to hand out another €50 to re-sit it.
• The 28 people that are listed as applying in 2017, after the last testing, most likely done so after the false announcement about the course being mandatory. Wonder if they will get the option of a refund and cancellation now that it's been shown to be false.
• The 6 people that applied for the course this year. Do they intend to shoot Coilte land or are they still working under the impression its' mandatory.

3) Not sure if we covered this but it's been playing on my mind recently. We have already been told (by the Minister's dept) this course is not mandatory and that no group are recognised as being the authorised (or sole) provider of training. They also said they have received applications from other interested parties in running a similar type of course.

We know now that a course off some kind will be coming. So my question is this. What happens to the previous;y issued licenses? If the current course is not recognised, registered, etc. but a forthcoming curse will be (regardless of who runs it) then where do the lads that have done the HCAP stand.

Don't forget there was a course before the HCAP and the lads that doen that were promised this would serve them forever, but fond that to not be the case when the newer, current HCAP, was introduced. So what is to say the old HCAP will be worth the paper its written on when any coming course is introduced?

Grizzly 45

Just my own opinion..As HCAP was set up to be a CYA exercise for a semi-state body who owns forestry.That's all it will ever be and revert back to being.IOW back to its original remit...And ASFAIC fine too,as its Coilte property and they can dictate whatever on their land.

So that leaves now two options.Anyone who wants to shoot outside Coilte IF this legislation ever comes to fruition or is even commenced.They sit another test like the rest of us and now can shoot on Coilte and private land.Which then raises the ugly head for HCAP of reciprocity of shooting on Coilte lands as well.If HCAP was going to be good enough outside Coilte, why shouldn't the new test be not good enough for a Coilte application?

Other questions and double-edged swords is this.Who is going to run it?As this is a limited market here a are groups like UK BASC going to want to run it here as their prices already are ridiculous in the UK? I see maybe 6 contestants
WADI/HCAP
NARGC
Sports Collation
BASC
That crowd that offers many courses.Run from around Harbour House
Unknowns

All with different proposed methods of extracting money out of us in some shape or form using the same tired methodology and formulae to teach us...

Cass

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Just my own opinion..As HCAP was set up to be a CYA exercise for a semi-state body who owns forestry.That's all it will ever be and revert back to being. IOW back to its original remit...And ASFAIC fine too,as its Coilte property and they can dictate whatever on their land.

Let me ask you this.

• Who are Coilte to determine that the current HCAP and those that run it are qualified?
• If a new course is produced and must abide by a regulated standard as set out by the Government then are all past courses/certificates valid as they were run without SOPs to abide by?

The HCAP was run without so much as a look see by anyone UNTIL they stuck their head above the parapet. By doing so they have brought up the questions above not to mention every other question that has appeared on this thread about data protection, certification, recognition, authority, etc, etc.

They appear to be the architect of their own demise.

So that leaves now two options. Anyone who wants to shoot outside Coilte IF this legislation ever comes to fruition or is even commenced.They sit another test like the rest of us and now can shoot on Coilte and private land.Which then raises the ugly head for HCAP of reciprocity of shooting on Coilte lands as well.If HCAP was going to be good enough outside Coilte, why shouldn't the new test be not good enough for a Coilte application?

I don't believe Coilte have any right to refuse any sort of certification whether that is the HCAP, DSC1/2, or any of the European equivalents. They only ask for proof of compentency and any of those courses would show it.

As for others well if you have completed an accepted course then you are free to apply for tender like everyone else.

Other questions and double-edged swords is this.Who is going to run it?

Any one can once they meet whatever standards the Dept. set out. So it doesn't have to be a deer specific crowd.

As this is a limited market here a are groups like UK BASC going to want to run it here as their prices already are ridiculous in the UK?

I see a price of £160 which is €180. The current HCAP costs a minimum of €185.

I see maybe 6 contestants
WADI/HCAP

The WDAI? No range, but could do the MCQ and hire a range. However as they are signatories on the proposals from the deer crowds i wouldn't like to see it.

HCAP. Not sure who this is, but i think you mean the Deer Alliance. Same as above.

NARGC

Possibly. They already are the only ones that have authorisation for the game meat handling course. They have no range, but can hire one and combine both coruses for a weekend seminar.

Sports Collation

ABSOLUTELY F**KING NOT.

It comprises of :

• The NASRPC who have no ties to deer hunting
• Fishing crowd - Self explanatory
• Bullseye crowd - Again no ties to deer hunting and are an association
• Silhouette crowd - Same as the others above
• IFDA - One or two dealers the SC made up to bolster their ranks
• ROAI - Again one range, possibly two that were split off from the main association to bloster SC numbers.

BASC

Prices seem similar, but the course appears to be much better, more comprehensive, and they could do what is currently being done and hire a range for each shooting part of the test process.

That crowd that offers many courses.Run from around Harbour House

Don't know who you are talking about here.

Unknowns

The one key group, that someone mentioned earlier in the thread, that could run such a course are the ranges themselves.

They have the buildings/facilities to host the school part and the range to do the shooting part. So a course would only take a day and the range don't need to take a share/fee and so could reduce the price of the course significantly.

Any range with 100 yards could run their own course and once signed off on by the Minister's office when these standards are set out its all done in house. If they saw fit they could also apply to the FSAI and get the meat handling "license" and run that too.

All with different proposed methods of extracting money out of us in some shape or form using the same tired methodology and formulae to teach us...

As i said above none of this was an issue until the Deer Alliance started making noise. Now a course of some kind will be coming and so its only a matter of how much it'll cost. You can thank the deer alliance for that.

I remember lads complaining about having to pay for a deer license yet when the notion was floated with a price tag of between €10 - €30. Now they'll all have to pay hundreds in course fees that would pay for any hypothetical license for nearly a decade.

Grizzly 45

[*]Who are Coilte to determine that the current HCAP and those that run it are qualified?
[*]If a new course is produced and must abide by a regulated standard as set out by the Government then are all past courses/certificates valid as they were run without SOPs to abide by?

"Qualified" no doubt by the "we were here first,and wrote the rule book" law:rolleyes:Coilte will determine it no doubt on that basis as they were the ones who instigated this whole requirement and it is/was a buddy.buddy deal, with no official dept approval.

Very good question,if the IDS courses were sold as the be and end all, were they sold under false pretence as well??Or is this the ambiguous "or equivalent" certification they are on about??

The HCAP was run without so much as a look see by anyone UNTIL they stuck their head above the parapet. By doing so they have brought up the questions above not to mention every other question that has appeared on this thread about data protection, certification, recognition, authority, etc, etc.

Yup, They drew fire upon themselves thru not thinking this thru properly and thinking it was all in the bag because they had some NGO and dept approval while running roughshod over procedure for a offical govt contract,for which there has never even been a tender.IOW shifty dealings.

They appear to be the architect of their own demise.

Hear the smallest violin in the world playing for them??:p

I don't believe Coilte have any right to refuse any sort of certification whether that is the HCAP, DSC1/2, or any of the European equivalents. They only ask for proof of compentency and any of those courses would show it

.

It is a given that anything European would be more of a qualification than HCAP.Even the US hunter safety course trumps it.Yet they categorically state that it is the HCAP or nowt.For a lease application,not for hunting in the woods with whomever.



As for others well if you have completed an acceptable course then you are free to apply for tender like everyone else.

Any one can once they meet whatever standards the Dept. set out. So it doesn't have to be a deer-specific crowd

.

True,but since there is no tender it's moot at this point .

I see a price of £160 which is €180. The current HCAP costs a minimum of €185.

Not much of a difference then..And is that for the entire course or just per module?Remember anyone like BASC ,etc are going to have to travel, bring materials, etc,so that's going to add to their cost of the course.

The WDAI? No range, but could do the MCQ and hire a range. However, as they are signatories on the proposals from the deer crowds i wouldn't like to see it.
HCAP. Not sure who this is, but i think you mean the Deer Alliance. Same as above.

It's now an umbrella group that calls itself DAI/HCAP as it is another alphabet soup of initials, a lot of old-timers still know it as WADI/HCAP:)

Possibly. They already are the only ones that have authorisation for the game meat handling course. They have no range but can hire one and combine both courses for a weekend seminar.

Wasnt there alot of grumbling at the time of the price of the game handling course?450 euros sticks in my mind...?Hence the low uptake.

ABSOLUTELY F**KING NOT

.
Do NOT be surprised if some wise arse [we know who] and pals decide to try and add this string to his bow.

Prices seem similar, but the course appears to be much better, more comprehensive, and they could do what is currently being done and hire a range for each shooting part of the test process.

It is better, seeing HCAP stole bits from it and from the German hunting course...But I cant see it happening too easily with possible Brexit complications in qualifications and STG/Euro in the future exchange rates.

The one key group, that someone mentioned earlier in the thread, that could run such a course are the ranges themselves.

They have the buildings/facilities to host the school part and the range to do the shooting part. So a course would only take a day and the range don't need to take a share/fee and so could reduce the price of the course significantly.

Any range with 100 yards could run their own course and once signed off on by the Minister's office when these standards are set out its all done in-house. If they saw fit they could also apply to the FSAI and get the meat handling "license" and run that too.

It would be probably the most logical and cheapest way of doing things no doubt.We don't lengthy months of instruction on the basics of shooting a deer safely.But of course once a govt dept gets involved logic and common sense goes out the window...


.

I remember lads complaining about having to pay for a deer license yet when the notion was floated with a price tag of between €10 - €30. Now they'll all have to pay hundreds in course fees that would pay for any hypothetical license for nearly a decade

The deer license and tags haven't gone away you know.
The IDMF still have that as one of their concrete proposals to fund them for their "research "[of staying in a cushy NGO number]Like the property tax, it will stay "reasonable" for a few seasons, I'd say all of one season, and you can add a zero to each of those tags then..Why do you think they had those specific questions on that form they sent out last year at the beginning of the license season? They wanted to see will we be allowed to be fleeced on this stupid idea, along with this nonsense of recording on an app where we shot our deer.

Cass

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

"Qualified" no doubt by the "we were here first,and wrote the rule book" law:rolleyes:Coilte will determine it no doubt on that basis as they were the ones who instigated this whole requirement and it is/was a buddy.buddy deal, with no official dept approval.

So in short, they're not qualified.

Yet they categorically state that it is the HCAP or nowt.For a lease application,not for hunting in the woods with whomever.

I read, or rather skimmed over, the Coilte manual but can you show me where it states specifically that only the HCAP will suffice. If memory serves it actually said "HCAP or equivalent".

Not much of a difference then..And is that for the entire course or just per module?Remember anyone like BASC ,etc are going to have to travel, bring materials, etc,so that's going to add to their cost of the course.

I've no idea, the info i gave is only stuff i've found in relation to your point about the cost.

As for other expenses, who knows. No point in speculating. Way too early in the game for that.

It's now an umbrella group that calls itself DAI/HCAP as it is another alphabet soup of initials, a lot of old-timers still know it as WADI/HCAP:)

I know who the groups are. Deer Alliance, WDAI, Wicklow deer crowd, NPWS, and one or two others according to the proposal.

Wasnt there alot of grumbling at the time of the price of the game handling course?450 euros sticks in my mind...?Hence the low uptake.

It started of expensive alright. Not sure it was €450, but it wasn't cheap. However the price dropped to €240 or so i believe. The problem i heard of is the way it was ran. 20 or 30 lads doing it, with say €9,000 taken in monies, then told the course is not paying for itself.

So tell me how a one day course that takes in thousands can create a loss? There were mutterings about the conditions of the place it was held and the lunch provided but that is secondary to the actual monetary issues.

Do NOT be surprised if some wise arse [we know who] and pals decide to try and add this string to his bow.

Swear to Christ if i see their name coming close to it, i'll finally throw the rule book out the window, and let loose. Everything everyone is afraid to say for fear of reprisals won't matter a sh*t.

But I cant see it happening too easily with possible Brexit complications in qualifications and STG/Euro in the future exchange rates.

Won't pretend to know or understand all the ramifications of Brexit, but i cannot see how it'll have any effect on a course other than the exchange rate which frankly cannot be as bad as i was a few years back when it was 70p to the Euro.

It would be probably the most logical and cheapest way of doing things no doubt.We don't lengthy months of instruction on the basics of shooting a deer safely.But of course once a govt dept gets involved logic and common sense goes out the window...

The trend with shooting and the government is to set the standard and have us police ourselves. So i cannot, or hope not to, see too much interference. Famous last words though.

The deer license and tags haven't gone away you know.

I know.

However one step at a time. We need to manage the way any future course will take shape, who will run the courses, the fees and all the important stuff that will alow the sport to continue. Then the finer details of tags, selling meat, etc. can be addressed.

I met my FCP rep over the Christmas and asked him to make it a priority in relaying information about the deer side of things as soon as he gets it. I don't like playing catch up and definitely not against something that was done 18 months ago and only released for public consumption 3 months ago.

Grizzly 45

Something is stirring again...This was in Agriland,the indos online paper for farmers.

http://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/first-time-applicants-for-deer-hunting-licences-may-have-to-undergo-training/

cavan shooter

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Something is stirring again...This was in Agriland,the indos online paper for farmers.

http://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/first-time-applicants-for-deer-hunting-licences-may-have-to-undergo-training/

FFS..... cant they just back off a while. Bet a certain man is up there lobbying like **** to bring it in........:mad:

ayagerard

there is no doubt it is the same mayfainers stirring the same **** pile with a new stick, i only hope our minister isn't wearing a winkers to be lead up the garden path by this shower ,looks like it is time to resend all those emails again ,make a few phone calls , every time these guys put there heads up they will gain ground if we let them , all we have to do is show them for what they are , question there history , what gain they have in all this ,and show who benefits from these new rules, regulations , courses,
what they should be doing is providing these free to get people into the sport mabe the minister will provide grants to assist new intrents in dealing with the soaring costs involved by hunters in there initial out lay ,
but again it is only there own interests they serve , history is on our side here and we must highlight it , ironically they voted themselves in and we didn't think much of it , but they need sorting out now, they certainly don't represent me and will be making no money from me , it is the generations to come that will lose out if they get there way , all the laws that are needed are in place we don't need any more , if we do private enterprise must not be allowed to benefit from it , what have they done with all of the money they have got so far

Grizzly 45

We are at a disadvantage here...
The minister and others think we are all for this because "our" organisations are talking to her and telling her how good an idea this is.That there is a group of dissenters will be played down by those taking tea with her.As we really can't trust any of "our organisations" not to be playing this for their own benefits and one-upmanship, is simply we need a way of delivering our message to her in person...Anyone got any ideas?Thinking maybe a delegation of people from this group to give her the real low down on whats going on??
At best this becomes another can kicking situation,or like the licensing of using poision for spraying weeds and crops, another backlog of incompetence as to be utterly unworkable.

garrettod

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

...Thinking maybe a delegation of people from this group to give her the real low down on whats going on?? ....

Good idea, if a few were willing.

Cass

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Something is stirring again...This was in Agriland,the indos online paper for farmers.

http://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/first-time-applicants-for-deer-hunting-licences-may-have-to-undergo-training/

cavan shooter wrote: »

FFS..... cant they just back off a while. Bet a certain man is up there lobbying like **** to bring it in........:mad:

TBH it's no real surprise. We already knew that because of the actions of the deer alliance that a course will now be coming at some point its just a matter of what type, what quality and who runs them.

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Thinking maybe a delegation of people from this group to give her the real low down on whats going on??

ayagerar wrote:

...... i only hope our minister isn't wearing a winkers to be lead up the garden path by this shower ,looks like it is time to resend all those emails again

Because this vested interest group have access to the minister via the NPWS we are at a disadvantage in that they will have the newest, most relevant information as it happens. Whereas we will be weeks to months behind and always trying to put out fires before we can properly address any new proposals.

So here is my thinking as the lads have said in the quote above.

GET WRITING.

Not just to your local/national representative group but to the Minster, the NPWS, and every other shooting group out there. I don't care if it is the Olympic crowd, write to everyone and don't just ask questions, demand answers and proper representation because as the response to this shows the majority of actual shooters are not happy with how this was about to be played out before we all wrote in last year.

Don't forget in your correspondence to outline the problems we all see with the vested interest groups. A reminder of some of them:

1. The NPWS and Deer Alliance have no authority to introduce any mandatory courses.
2. There is no legislation in place to support this.
3. An SI (someone floated the idea) cannot supersede primary legislation, of which none exists (for this exact topic).
4. The HCAP was introduced for shooters on Coilte land. It is a CYA exercise.
5. The HCAP was written by deer stalkers so what are their qualifications? I don't mean 30, 40, 50 years shooting, i mean registered, verifiable, qualifications.
6. Coilte demand this cert, but what official recognition does it have (An Gardaí, DoJ, DoE, DoA.R.H.GA., etc)
7. Where does the money go? Even now, presently, who gets it and how is it spent?
8. Introducing proficiency as a prerequisite for a license is a dangerous precedence. How do you measure proficiency, what national standards are there, and who determines it's met (leads back to the qualifications of those deeming how proficient a person is).
9. It will not combat poaching.
10. Poaching is a criminal act, and those that do it are already breaking the law. How will further legislation stop those already intent on breaking the current laws?
11. More legislation is not needed, only enforcement of the current legislation which comes under the guise of more rangers and stronger punishment for those caught.
12. **This one is less factual and more emotive** I'ts my gun, licensed by An Gardaí who deem me competent, and private permissions given to me by land owners so the deer alliance have no say in what i do.
13. Under whose authority, and where, is this demand for mandatory courses coming from? The vested parties (NPWS, WDAI, Deer Alliance, etc) cannot make such demands legally and the Minister has distanced herself and her department from them. So who is making this mandatory?
14. If competence is required by law and those running the courses, currently, have no official accreditation, then what makes those with 10, 15, 20+ years experience, but no hcap, incompetent and in need of a hcap?
15. The data protection issues or lack thereof
16. The unregulated nature of the course and those running it. As its not recognized by any Dept and has been declared as "not administered by us" by the Dept of A.H.G.RA.
17. Either it's a monopoly which breaks Irish and EU law or its open for all in which case other groups can run their own version.
18. There was no tender process. With some €600,000 up for grabs over the next 5 years the deer alliance cannot call itself the "only game in town" and expect to have unfettered control over the course
19. If a tender process is not necessary then once again it opens it up to others to run their own course. (This would seem likely as the deer alliance tried to insinuate that anyone trying to run an opposing course is in it only for the money. See point 10 of their rebuttal).
20. How does the actual course measure up in terms of effectiveness and against other such courses that are recognized internationally (DSC2, etc).
21. If "or equivalent" from Coilte's handbook and "Show competence" in the 1976 Act are to be believed then a similar certification from England, Scotland, Germany, France, etc, etc. must be recognized.
22. How are the private land owners and those that shoot on it affected by a hcap course? The land owners do not benefit from whether a hunter has a hcap or not and if some loose out on shooting due to not having a hcap the land owner will look elsewhere to rid their land of what most view as vermin.

Don't forget that the Deer Alliance when they made the claim of a mandatory course insisted they were the only ones qualified to run such a course. As we found out there was no tender issued from the Minister's department and the Deer Alliance most certainly were not granted, nor did they win, any contract.

Another user, whom i'll give a shout to, has gotten written verification from the PAC (Public Accounts Committee) that no tender was issued or won by ANYONE, least of all the Deer Alliance or any of the other parties that seek to privatise deer shooting.

Grizzly 45

So we have 22 points so far of grievances.And while it certainly makes sense to put those on paper and send them to all and sundry,I wonder would it also make a stronger impact if these points have a stronger impact on a minister if they are being delivered in person in their office?it's a bit harder to dismiss a person face to face than dismiss their missives,as we saw the last time we were in the Dail.

The Collation of vested interests and Co, can always say we are just a tiny minority of dissenters making lots of noise on paper to the minister in some meeting..Harder to say it if we are across the table having a one to one putting our point of view across.I have seen it done before, and have participated in one such meet in the Dail with then mere Leo Vardkar, when he was in charge of transport.At least he gave us an hour and was helpful enough to tell a local council dept to get the thumb out.

My feeling would be, what have we got to lose?Bar a day off work and a trip to Dublin?OTOH,it might show the opposition that we are not all going to be fleeced by them and just as easily get the ministers ear too.It might give her pause for thought as well.

Wel,l as the mouse who suggested belling the bloody cat was told.One thing to suggest it, another to go do it.Someone has to stick their head around the corner,so I guess unless anyone else wants the job?It's me.:eek: Anyone else going to want to come along for the ride?:P

dto001

Wel,l as the mouse who suggested belling the bloody cat was told.One thing to suggest it, another to go do it.Someone has to stick their head around the corner,so I guess unless anyone else wants the job?It's me.:eek: Anyone else going to want to come along for the ride?:P
Let me know when you plan on doing this and I'll head up with you but you'll have to give me a heads up as I'm away a lot with work

ayagerard

sent off an email to minister madagans office last evening asking her views on the above highlighted points by cass in my own words , also highlighted how the last minister humphreys distanced her self from these people as their only concerns were money , also asked where the money they had received so far from the hcap had gone as they were a nonprofit organization and were they data compliant,the fact that they had only 3 meetings, all in 2015 showed that they were not fit for purpose and only served their own interests stating words like mandatory, and they were the only game in town ,what other proposals have they put forward in relation to the deer, welfare, or road safety issues,
i asked for and
received an acknowledgement email stating that
( we will be in touch with you again shortly )

so we will have to wait and see what comes of it , cant do any harm

good man yourself grizzly 45 fair play to you what we all can do to help is get as many signatures as possible and send them up the road with you
have a go at every td minister nargc ifa member even the priest if he will listen to you, as members they are supposed be representing us , just mention member ship fees and watch there eyes open up

extremetaz

Just sent my bit off to Minister Madagan there now.

Cass

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

.............it might show the opposition that we are not all going to be fleeced by them and just as easily get the ministers ear too.It might give her pause for thought as well.

Erm, nope.

I think this is the wrong way to go about it. The Deer Alliance and their ilk are using official channels and official means to have their side heard. We need to do the same.

A person, or persons, walking in off the street will carry no more weight than a random tweet. Get a dossier together, present it to your local rep or even a rep for the NARGC, FCP, etc. and have them bring it up through official channels at an official meeting where the minutes and topic is recorded and can be referenced later.

Grizzly 45

Cass wrote: »

Erm, nope.

I think this is the wrong way to go about it. The Deer Alliance and their ilk are using official channels and official means to have their side heard. We need to do the same.

Certainly, and we have to do the same...Make an appointment thru my/our local FG TD/ senator, which is the normal protocol anyway, as well as providing them with the items to be discussed.Joe Shmoe trying to meet the minister of his own bat isn't going to happen.Once you get to meet the Minister, it is an official engagement and it is transcribed as it was an official state business meeting.

Get a dossier together, present it to your local rep or even a rep for the NARGC, FCP, etc. and have them bring it up through official channels at an official meeting where the minutes and topic is recorded and can be referenced later.

This is where I see the problem...Whats the NARGC gameplan on this issue?Remember, they were planning their own version of this too?Who is deciding on the FCP,if and when they get into action again when if ever this would be discussed and TBH, it isn't really in the FCP remit this one?

Simply put...Can we trust our own organisations, that are "on our side" at the moment to deliver our concerns in full, and unexpurgated in those 22 points?
Not an ala carte few points that agree with someone's agenda, but OUR concerns all lock, stock and barrel.The only way for it to be delivered is for us to go and do it ourselves.
In the Machiavellian and Byzantine politics of Irish shooting it is now impossible to know who to trust anymore, and in this case, if you want the job done properly, its best done ourselves.

Cass

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Certainly, and we have to do the same...Make an appointment thru my/our local FG TD/ senator, which is the normal protocol anyway, as well as providing them with the items to be discussed.Joe Shmoe trying to meet the minister of his own bat isn't going to happen.Once you get to meet the Minister, it is an official engagement and it is transcribed as it was an official state business meeting.

I'm not saying to not go in yourself, but don't have it as the only response.

You say any meeting is transcribed, well i'll cede to that point as i don't know any better, but i still believe the FCP or any official channel is a better platform. So if you feel the need to go in yourself by all means do so but liaising with the FCP and going through them is a better (in my opinion) route and should be used at the very least in conjunction with any personal action.

This is where I see the problem...Whats the NARGC gameplan on this issue?

That i cannot speak to, but they've opposed the Deer crowd so far, and at this point the enemy of my enemy and all that.

Remember, they were planning their own version of this too?

As of now, three groups are doing the same. The NARGC, and according to the Minister two others.

The previous Minister has made the statement that a course will be introduced so the Deer Alliance have sealed that much. We cannot avoid a course now, but what we can do is make sure that it is up to standard, gone to the best group/companies to run, and is done to a national standard. Look at the competency courses where they range from a day course on a range to a 20 minute chat in someone's kitchen. We don't want the same with any future deer course.

Who is deciding on the FCP.........

All the groups that sit on it will have input, and not just the vested interest groups.

.............. ,if and when they get into action again when if ever this would be discussed and TBH.................

I don't understand this.

The FCP is in action at all times. By that i mean they meet regularly and the last one was only a couple of months back with another one due in March i believe. They meet at various times to discuss various measures but they are not "gone" and idle.

............. it isn't really in the FCP remit this one?

How so?

The cross pollination of interests among the various members of the different shooting groups means that while there may be specific representative groups for the various disciplines, there needs to be a meeting of all groups so that each one is up to speed.

IOW i'd like to know the NRAI has been made aware and if they report back to the their members and it only affects 10 of them, well those 10 now know what is happening. Same with the NARGC. How many members of the NARGC are members of target clubs and also stalk. IOW they may be involved in two to three groups, all of whom sit on the FCP.

If each group says it has nothing to do with them specifically, then the members that rely on the reps for these groups to keep them informed will never be updated on any changes.

Simply put...Can we trust our own organisations, that are "on our side" at the moment to deliver our concerns in full, and unexpurgated in those 22 points?

We don't have a specific Deer Group that is "on our side" or looking out for our interests so we need the groups already at the table to do it for us. Also as they represent us and all our interests then whether it affects 10 or 1,000 within each group the reps need to be made aware, keep updated, and inform their members.

Not an ala carte few points that agree with someone's agenda, but OUR concerns all lock, stock and barrel.The only way for it to be delivered is for us to go and do it ourselves.

Again there is no guarantee but i'd sooner have someone that is 90% on our side, than what we have at the moment which is nothing.

These proposals were first created in 2015, and it wasn't until two years later that we all found out about them. If our reps on the FCP only inform us and we act ourselves as an independent group then that in itself is something. At present we have to wait for one of the deer crowd to announce the changes they have sought at which point we are on the back foot from the off.

IOW they [deer crowds] have the undivided attention of the Minister. Our letter writing campaign got it shut down and if it means we all create a new group with our own reps to attend these meetings then we need to organise that and get in on future meetings.

In the Machiavellian and Byzantine politics of Irish shooting it is now impossible to know who to trust anymore, and in this case, if you want the job done properly, its best done ourselves.

Allegiances and alliances change from month to month. All we can do is work with those that align with our interests at the moment. If we trust no one we might find ourselves at a loss and loose our sport.