Compulsory HCAP - Cancelled

cavan shooter · 16-11-2017 7:20pm

grassroot1 wrote: »

Heard nothing from the NARGC, I am going to contact the county secretary and put a flee in his ear. The largest shooting organisation and all that.

Letter went to the Chairman County and National on the 3rd November same day I bounced one to Heather.

Got a thank you from Heather, and a we are aware of the situation from County and the National Chairman with a we have an executive meeting coming up where it is on the agenda for discussion and we take on board your concerns.

The Sports Coalition of vested interests where and are still trying to **** us over by making a training buisness out of Firearm safety, the Deer Alliance are doing it Country sports Ireland are doing it all with the support of the Government.

I hope the NARGC will actually support the ordinary Deer Stalker and grassroot member on this and fight his corner and not jump on the bandwagon.

This must fought, its not fair for it to be dropped on us without any consultation.

Resistance is futile · 16-11-2017 9:35pm

wirehairmax wrote: »

The game handling course should never have been that price and the nargc have significantly reduced the costs since taking it off the people who had control of it at the beginning. I was told last week that if the nargc do run a course it will be priced economically and with the members needs in mind

It was a certain individuals pet project at the start and I don't think the Organization realized the full fruits of their labour

wirehairmax · 16-11-2017 10:51pm

Resistance is futile wrote: »

It was a certain individuals pet project at the start and I don't think the Organization realized the full fruits of their labour

And they’re still paying for it.

cavan shooter · 16-11-2017 11:06pm

wirehairmax wrote: »

And they’re still paying for it.

I wouldn't say that the organisation has turned the tables and well done.
What is important now, id to ensure we don't end up paying for other peoples pet projects especially when its not needed.

There is a major push for "us" the joe shooter to become a little earner for certain individuals and associations....Look at the time line.

We have seen that the Sports Coalition of vested interests, have a "shared concern" about the competency of shooters...and within a month reports from people telling us how we wont get a license until we resit our safety course that will be only available at certain ranges.

We then see that there is now a requirement for HCAP before you get a license from NPWS....funny how its only the Deer Alliance that can issue that.

Then in the last couple of days we now see that Country Sports Ireland are providing Deer hunting courses.

If ever we are being set up for a right rogering it is now, you can take the "it doesnt affect me I dont shoot Deer approach, but trust me its a different angle to bring compulsory safety training as the SC and the certain range operators envisage, and if they get away with it whats next.

ayagerard · 16-11-2017 11:20pm

in 1973 we joined Europe hearing of all the great things that was to come giving away the best fishing rights in the world were they have taken 2 to 1 on every euro Ireland has drawn from Europe
1n 1989 ray Burke with a stroke of a Biro cost this country trillions
in 2017 Sean Fitzpatrick walked out of court a free man .
the deer in Ireland belong to the people of Ireland no one person no company no syndicate no government department owns them
the department of culture , heritage, and the gaeltacht, are only care takers
with the npws on the ground implementing, as minister, heather Humphreys has a duty of care to the deer and the people of Ireland, they are not governed in the department of agriculture because they belong to the people of Ireland as so no private enterprise can or should be seen to profit from them the deer being the people of Ireland
interesting read in link below what Europe thinks of us
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/conned-a-german-view-of-ireland-1.1454115

grassroot1 · 16-11-2017 11:42pm

ayagerard wrote: »

in 1973 we joined Europe hearing of all the great things that was to come giving away the best fishing rights in the world were they have taken 2 to 1 on every euro Ireland has drawn from Europe
1n 1989 ray Burke with a stroke of a Biro cost this country trillions
in 2017 Sean Fitzpatrick walked out of court a free man .
the deer in Ireland belong to the people of Ireland no one person no company no syndicate no government department owns them
the department of culture , heritage, and the gaeltacht, are only care takers
with the npws on the ground implementing, as minister, heather Humphreys has a duty of care to the deer and the people of Ireland, they are not governed in the department of agriculture because they belong to the people of Ireland as so no private enterprise can or should be seen to profit from them the deer being the people of Ireland
interesting read in link below what Europe thinks of us
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/conned-a-german-view-of-ireland-1.1454115

Not really that relevant to this issue though

ayagerard · 17-11-2017 12:21pm

grassroot1 wrote: »

Not really that relevant to this issue though

i think it is all relevant as the common denominator here is money, your money, my money, if you own a gun , if you would like to own a gun, they want money
the hcap excluded coillte from liability issues for insurance purposes you had a trained hunter, oho ray they were happy what purpose will it serve out side of coillte ,is it the farmers, land owners, licencing authority (guards) that are looking for this ,the guards can say no to any one with reason ,dads army will pass the hcap, as of now no one including ( mr bean ) has failed what does that say about the hcap , the fact that they don't recognize international training in this area says it all , a scam , white collar crime, it is all robbery of a different kind , these are recommendations put forward by the idmf to minister humphries, it is her that must be shown the trees from the timber , you would not hear any of these shouting mandatory if it was free ,so yes i am delighted with the nargc providing a (course) competition against the alliance .and we can turn it into another civil war if we want .as of now they have no legal standing , and are not needed by hunters farmers guards npws , so again who benefits from the implementation of these recommendations who gets the money

wirehairmax · 17-11-2017 1:13pm

cavan shooter wrote: »

I wouldn't say that the organisation has turned the tables and well done.
What is important now, id to ensure we don't end up paying for other peoples pet projects especially when its not needed.

There is a major push for "us" the joe shooter to become a little earner for certain individuals and associations....Look at the time line.

We have seen that the Sports Coalition of vested interests, have a "shared concern" about the competency of shooters...and within a month reports from people telling us how we wont get a license until we resit our safety course that will be only available at certain ranges.

We then see that there is now a requirement for HCAP before you get a license from NPWS....funny how its only the Deer Alliance that can issue that.

Then in the last couple of days we now see that Country Sports Ireland are providing Deer hunting courses.

If ever we are being set up for a right rogering it is now, you can take the "it doesnt affect me I dont shoot Deer approach, but trust me its a different angle to bring compulsory safety training as the SC and the certain range operators envisage, and if they get away with it whats next.

The trained hunter course was a farce since its inception, we all know that. Only now is it back on a level footing, costs have decreased considerably and City and Guilds are back on board after some historical issues were ironed out.

Listen, as the deer alliance proudly declare, they have been lobbying for compulsary training for years now. Personally I think you should have a choice whether you want to do these courses or not. How do you tell a man in his 50's or 60's for example who has been shooting deer for over 30 years that now he has to do a course or he is not deemed competent?
Lets park the SC to one side for this one, I dont know if they have any act or part in this HCAP saga. I'm sure theyre lurking in the background waiting for an opening as they do have an ''expert deer manager'' in their ranks:D
I'm not really familiar with CSI but they do seem to be becoming more prominent and they are running a couple of courses in the near future but are not pushing themselves in the same way as the deer alliance are. Their courses are discretionary for now but that may change to provide further competition to the HCAP.
We do need to remain vigilant, voice our opinions to whoever represents us, NARGC, IFA or whoever. With 25000 members in the NARGC and the IFA being the most powerful orginization in the country and the only one the government are truly afraid of, our focus should be on them as a way to force the situation if needs be.

yubabill1 · 17-11-2017 2:54pm

Well, everyone on here has just been called mentally deranged, sick and rich couch potatoes on Ciara Kelly's Newstalk radio show by Carmody from ARAN.

Essentially, while talking about Trump's elephant trophy relaxation for the US, Carmody expanded the trophy taking to deerstalking in Ireland, saying it's very bit as bad here etc.

The host made no effort to challenge Carmody, while agreeing with his descriptions of trophy hunters and while she read out a listener message saying that it's in hunter's interest to promote conservation through trophy fees, she flatly stated that she just didn't buy that.

No attempt at balance on prime time radio and Irish hunters on the receiving end of Carmody's vitriol.

Show still live, so can't call up the link yet

http://www.newstalk.com/listen_back/

Think there's a case to be made to the BAI.

Will be writing soon.

meathstevie · 17-11-2017 5:44pm

yubabill1 wrote: »

Well, everyone on here has just been called mentally deranged, sick and rich couch potatoes on Ciara Kelly's Newstalk radio show by Carmody from ARAN.

Essentially, while talking about Trump's elephant trophy relaxation for the US, Carmody expanded the trophy taking to deerstalking in Ireland, saying it's very bit as bad here etc.

The host made no effort to challenge Carmody, while agreeing with his descriptions of trophy hunters and while she read out a listener message saying that it's in hunter's interest to promote conservation through trophy fees, she flatly stated that she just didn't buy that.

No attempt at balance on prime time radio and Irish hunters on the receiving end of Carmody's vitriol.

Show still live, so can't call up the link yet

http://www.newstalk.com/listen_back/

Think there's a case to be made to the BAI.

Will be writing soon.

If the rich bit were only true..... .The only deluded one in the picture is the ARAN representative ? Still associating with terrorists and convicted criminals by any chance ?

yubabill1 · 17-11-2017 6:01pm

meathstevie wrote: »

If the rich bit were only true..... .The only deluded one in the picture is the ARAN representative ? Still associating with terrorists and convicted criminals by any chance ?

Carmody's careful who he is visible with.

He overstepped the mark today, though and the show host failed to provide balance.

And with 150k hunters in ROI, she could have found one to come on the show - she found ARAN ( less than 150k members) so how come she couldn't find a hunter?

Grizzly 45 · 17-11-2017 6:27pm

I thought "streaker " Carmody ,as he was known in Limerick had quit ARAN??Oh well, the little pervert is back seeking attention again.Remember his red-painted hands and Enda down in Cork?Nothing but an attention seeking little git, who was laughed at in Limerick when I was growing up.:rolleyes:

Funny he keeps popping up as the group disbanded last year.. So how come this perv is still getting airtime?http://www.limerickpost.ie/2016/10/22/limerick-animal-rights-group-cease-operations Their FB page is still active,as they posted about the animals in circus ban.

Anyhoo. A sort of an answer from ICA on their course from a FB discussion on the topic.

Will this course be accepted by the HCAP/Irish deer management forum?As they state that theirs [HCAP]will be the only one acceptable for Irish stalkers? Also hOW MUCH is this course in comparison to the HCAP @200 euros? As this course is BASC based you are charging £295 STG, will this course be significantly cheaper in the ROI??

Ronan Gorman Hi Simon - the above training event is designed:

1. To be enjoyable and informative and help develop stalkers knowledge and competence is key areas.
2. As it says in the above text - preparation for any test/course - it is not intended to be a test in itself.

It was designed and advertised before the recent decision by to make HCAP or equivalent compulsory for the issue of a deer hunting licence - but we are now obviously considering our next steps and will announce details of any future courses shortly.

yubabill1 · 17-11-2017 8:51pm

Forgot I had to complain to newstalk first as part of BAI procedure;

Just sent this to info@newstalk.com -

Newstalk,

I was disappointed and offended by Ciara Kelly's interview with John Carmody today regarding trophy hunting changes in the US.

Mr Carmody belongs to an anti hunting group with a small membership, while there are perhaps 100,000 hunters here in Ireland who were not given representation on the programme while hunters were variously called "rich couch potatoes" "sick" and described as having mental problems during the piece.

The presenter persistently offered personal views against hunting and failed to provide fairness and balance. One communication from the public in support of hunting as a funding source for conservation was read by the host and summarily dismissed as "I simply don't buy it".

from BAI guide for complaints;

"Fairness, objectivity & impartiality
All broadcast news must be presented and reported in an objective and impartial manner and without expression of the broadcasters’ own views.
Current affairs broadcasts, including matters of public controversy or debate, must be treated in a manner which is fair to all interests concerned and the broadcast must be presented in an objective and impartial manner, without any expression of the broadcasters’ own views. "

" Harm & undue offence, including law and order as well as privacy
Every broadcaster must ensure that it does not broadcast anything which may reasonably be regarded as likely to cause harm or undue offence "

Mr Carmody was allowed denigrate the good name of Irish deerstalkers, unchallenged by the presenter, by comparing their actions to the trophy hunters previously described as "rich couch potatoes" "sick" and having mental disorders as above.

Hunting and deer talking in Ireland is highly-regulated, requiring Garda vetting in a process taking up to three months and requiring proof of good reason, proof of competence and consent for authorities to access medical records, including any psychological/psychiatric history associated with the applicant. Deer stalking requires an additional licence from the NPWS.

The program failed to meet the minimum standards of the BAI in regard to hunting.

Faithfully

Grizzly 45 · 17-11-2017 9:36pm

Noticed bechance how many "wimmin" there are in Newstalk too? Seems since they got rid of Hook,it is becoming the angry sisterhood brigade on air over there.

gunny123 · 17-11-2017 11:33pm

Why do expect anything else from the irish media ? Its always been biased , especially towards shooters and hunters. We had the prime time whitewash a few years back over gun ownership and "man of de people" joe duffy doesn't give us much of a hearing either on rte.

garrettod · 18-11-2017 1:22am

gunny123 wrote: »

Why do expect anything else from the irish media ? Its always been biased , especially towards shooters and hunters. We had the prime time whitewash a few years back over gun ownership and "man of de people" joe duffy doesn't give us much of a hearing either on rte.

..and that will continue, as long as we allow it to.

More of us need to speak up for ourselves.

RTE for example is a state owned broadcaster and we need to give them hell, when they are not don't treat us equally with other owners of their services.

Grizzly 45 · 18-11-2017 7:20pm

Tell us something we don't know Heather... Well as NARGC has a seat on this Forum, its up to them now to produce some answers to us.Should be interesting seeing the IDMF haven't met in two years now....:rolleyes:

We seem to have missed this one:

https://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/...s=HCAP#g1879.q

Michael Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
692. To ask the Minister for Culture, Heritage and the Gaeltacht her plans to introduce a hunter competence assessment programme, HCAP; the details regarding same; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [37525/17]

Heather Humphreys (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)

My Department grants some 4,600 licences annually to hunt deer during the Open Season which is the period during which deer can be legally shot under licence. The Open Season for deer operates generally from 1 September to 28 February, depending on the species and gender of deer.
In March 2015 myDepartment along with the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine published the report Deer Management in Ireland – A Framework for Action which includespolicy recommendations relating to deer conservation and management that could be pursued by both Departments and stakeholders. An Irish Deer Management Forum was established to implement the various actions listed in the Report. The Forum itself comprises representatives from the main stakeholder areas such as landowners, forestry, hunting and conservation organisations as well as representatives from both Departments.
The Forum has issued a number of recommendations since its establishment including a recommendation that mandatory certification of deer hunters should be introduced on a phased basis over a five year period from 1stJanuary 2018 for existing licensed deer hunters. In order to gauge the extent of current accreditation amongst hunters, my Department amended the current deer hunting application form to obtain this information which is currently being examined by my Department. In this year’s deer hunting application form guidance notes, deer hunters were informed of the Deer Management Forum’s proposal in relation to certification.

meathstevie · 18-11-2017 8:34pm

It's a great start when the Minister speaks of the gender of deer in relation to the open seasons order. The wording on the licence uses the presence or lack of antlers on a deer as the defining condition for the opening and closing date.

Backbarrel · 19-11-2017 1:08pm

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Tell us something we don't know Heather... Well as NARGC has a seat on this Forum, its up to them now to produce some answers to us.Should be interesting seeing the IDMF haven't met in two years now....:rolleyes:

I did not know that the IDMF had not met in two years but I heard the NARGC had some hassle changing their rep on the forum in the tail end of the last regime and the start of this one.

ayagerard · 19-11-2017 3:30pm

i said this gang ( idmf ) have been meeting quarterly seance march 2015 19 stakeholders 3 meetings in 15 4 meetings in 16 and 3 so far in 17 we will say 3 hours per meeting that is over 2000 man hours and this is the best they can come up with ,
so ooooo so they have not met with 2 years ill have to re jig the figures above,
so now how many meetings have they had 3??? in total ? 9 hrs total 171 man hrs 1/11 of 2000
what other proposals were discussed in this time frame, what have we heard about management of the herd nothing , what have we heard about poaching how are the going to combat that nothing ,what recommendations have they put forward to help the npws nothing , are they actually worried about these animals, no sir they are not . legalization seems to be the only recommendations so far put forward is that possible

Grizzly 45 · 19-11-2017 3:36pm

So there should be a whole bunch of minutes to these meetings ,if they have taken place....Where are they?

solarwinds · 19-11-2017 4:18pm

Probably scribbled on the back of a brown piece of paper shaped like an envelope.

meathstevie · 19-11-2017 5:24pm

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

So there should be a whole bunch of minutes to these meetings ,if they have taken place....Where are they?

In a ring binder written in pencil ? If that fails they can still be thrown in a shredder right under a cctv camera.

Grizzly 45 · 19-11-2017 7:49pm

Was going to say the back of a fag packet myself..But maybe things have progressed a bit?:rolleyes:

Resistance is futile · 19-11-2017 8:20pm

wirehairmax wrote: »

The trained hunter course was a farce since its inception, we all know that. Only now is it back on a level footing, costs have decreased considerably and City and Guilds are back on board after some historical issues were ironed out.

Listen, as the deer alliance proudly declare, they have been lobbying for compulsary training for years now. Personally I think you should have a choice whether you want to do these courses or not. How do you tell a man in his 50's or 60's for example who has been shooting deer for over 30 years that now he has to do a course or he is not deemed competent?
Lets park the SC to one side for this one, I dont know if they have any act or part in this HCAP saga. I'm sure theyre lurking in the background waiting for an opening as they do have an ''expert deer manager'' in their ranks:D
I'm not really familiar with CSI but they do seem to be becoming more prominent and they are running a couple of courses in the near future but are not pushing themselves in the same way as the deer alliance are. Their courses are discretionary for now but that may change to provide further competition to the HCAP.
We do need to remain vigilant, voice our opinions to whoever represents us, NARGC, IFA or whoever. With 25000 members in the NARGC and the IFA being the most powerful orginization in the country and the only one the government are truly afraid of, our focus should be on them as a way to force the situation if needs be.

https://nargc.ie/hunter-competence-assessment-programme-hcap/
Here it is hot off the press it looks like there was no knee jerk reaction to this . A meeting was held apparently Thursday night . At last some real leadership from the organization . Sometimes silence doesn't mean accent , sometimes it just means thinking is going on

Backbarrel · 19-11-2017 8:44pm

Resistance is futile wrote: »

https://nargc.ie/hunter-competence-assessment-programme-hcap/
Here it is hot off the press it looks like there was no knee jerk reaction to this . A meeting was held apparently Thursday night . At last some real leadership from the organization . Sometimes silence doesn't mean accent , sometimes it just means thinking is going on

I think this is spot on..

No knee jerk. would say there is work being done behind the scenes. Not the same grandstanding crap with legal challenges at the drop of a hat from previous regime..

This HCAP thing has to be resisted...i knew they were too quiet..glad to see they were working on it. Hope they bring some pressure to bear..

cavan shooter · 19-11-2017 8:48pm

Backbarrel wrote: »

I think this is spot on..

No knee jerk. would say there is work being done behind the scenes.

This has to be resisted...i knew they were too quiet..glad to see they were working on it..

Have to agree, seems to be a considered statement.

I am delighted to see that they are backing the ordinary grassroot shooter/Deer Stalker who is against this and didn't jump on to the "lets **** over the small guy" like the Sports Coalition of vested interests are attempting to do and Country sports Ireland are doing.

Resistance is futile · 19-11-2017 9:15pm

cavan shooter wrote: »

Have to agree, seems to be a considered statement.

I am delighted to see that they are backing the ordinary grassroot shooter/Deer Stalker who is against this and didn't jump on to the "lets **** over the small guy" like the Sports Coalition of vested interests are attempting to do and Country sports Ireland are doing.

Can't help thinking someone nearly dropped the ball on this . I know the chairman has done a lot and it's been a tough year,it's time the executive backed him up and knuckle down to the brief they were given

berettaman · 19-11-2017 9:16pm

cavan shooter wrote: »

Have to agree, seems to be a considered statement.

I am delighted to see that they are backing the ordinary grassroot shooter/Deer Stalker who is against this and didn't jump on to the "lets **** over the small guy" like the Sports Coalition of vested interests are attempting to do and Country sports Ireland are doing.

This is what happens when you have ordinary shooting guys around the table..they were not going to screw over the ordinary guy..

Now lets see how much they can do to stop this.

They will be up against it but at least they are taking a stand ..they are not trying to coin it from hunters..

cavan shooter · 19-11-2017 9:20pm

berettaman wrote: »

This is what happens when you have ordinary shooting guys around the table..they were not going to screw over the ordinary guy..

Now lets see how much they can do to stop this.

They will be up against it but at least they are taking a stand ..they are not trying to coin it from hunters..

a few years ago this would have been a done deal,
What is the story with the IDMF, and how did they get away with it.?

Shooting Forum - Firearms licencing information

Compulsory HCAP - Cancelled

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