Compulsory HCAP - Cancelled

Grizzly 45

Picked this up on an FB page from a local group of Munster deer hunters.So treat this as TOTALLY UNCONFIRMED..

As we know the newbies applying for a deer license for Jan 2018 season, will be required to do the HCAP or similar to be considered for a deer hunting license, and the rest of us will apparently have to do the HCAP within a fixed date within the next five years or so.This will be decided apparently by some sort of lottery system applied by NPWS. Don't do the HCAP within a certain timeframe, no deer hunting license for you lad/lady!

Considering this is coming from a state body that has been caught out on makey up law on things like; No Semi-autos are legal for deer hunting, You need 100 acres plus for a license, and .223 is perfectly legal for deer hunting here... You gotta ask is this legit or even plausible.The lad who posted this "claims" to have written an email to the dept and was informed that it's the ministers intent and will to follow this thru on a recommendation of the deer interest groups.:(: mad:

So , has anyone had this blip on their radar ?Or anything of the like? Can we get confirmation or denial of hostile intent?Going by my experience this year, I'd say the hostile intent is very possible, if not plausible.And if so, can we mount a campagin against this before January?

Walter Mittys Brother

Considering they were inquiring on this years app form about qualifications it would make sense. If you declare no qualification your name goes into the draw.

Has this come through FCP? Safe to assume all the other groups will be getting their money making schemes ratified too so. They'll all back each other on each others schemes.

The sky if falling, the sky is falling

Cass

This is the very thing we spoke about on this thread.

Like i've pointed out on previous threads, and as you said yourself Grizz, unless there is legislation to support any changes then they are not legal and don't have to be adhered to.

Problem is this is another example of proposals being issued by a group with a singular concern and no regard for other interests. They cannot combat poaching and think banning shooting or making it so regulated as to effectively ban it will solve their problems. Raises a few issues:

• Why have we all the laws we have if they cannot or will not enforce them?
• How will further legislation cause any changes as those breaking the current laws will continue to do so?
• Its not legal unless legislation is in place, which there currently is none.

Grizzly 45

I agree with this Cass,but I'm just wondering are we missing something in either wildlife acts 1976 or 2000, that allows the minister such powers??Because they seem intent to bull this thru no matter what.

grassroot1

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

I agree with this Cass,but I'm just wondering are we missing something in either wildlife acts 1976 or 2000, that allows the minister such powers??Because they seem intent to bull this thru no matter what.

Of course they are
1. Jobs for the boys
2. The elite stopping an ordinary Joe from getting into stalking

gunny123

grassroot1 wrote: »

Of course they are

2. The elite stopping an ordinary Joe from getting into stalking

I've seen this first hand, people connected (with the deer org's) paying silly money for leases, either on public or private lands, just to get rid of the lad shooting it.

If thats the way its going to go, they can stuff it.

wexfordman2

gunny123 wrote: »

I've seen this first hand, people connected (with the deer org's) paying silly money for leases, either on public or private lands, just to get rid of the lad shooting it.

If thats the way its going to go, they can stuff it.

How do you get a hcap without first having a deer licence ? A lot of supers won't give you a deer calibre rifle without having a deer licence and you need the rifle to get the hcap

Cass

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

I agree with this Cass,but I'm just wondering are we missing something in either wildlife acts 1976 or 2000, that allows the minister such powers??Because they seem intent to bull this thru no matter what.

Like the NPWS don't assume the DoJ/Minister's office is infallible.

When discussing a possible ban on semi auto after the so called coalition's proposals she said no compensation would be needed. She did not understand the difference between ownership and licensing.

IOW her office could legislate to remove the ability to license the firearm hence take it out of our hands/use, but it's still our property. As i said before it's like being banned from driving. They can take away your driver's license, but the car is still your property.

wexfordman2 wrote: »

How do you get a hcap without first having a deer licence ? A lot of supers won't give you a deer calibre rifle without having a deer licence and you need the rifle to get the hcap

One of many good questions, and much like the introduction of the trained hunter course it was done immediately without any network or platform to provide said courses. They left it up to whomever wanted to apply to run them. So far that is only one group however as said above if this were to become mandatory you'd see schools of excellence and training courses popping up with massive fees because unlike a voluntary course this must be done.

ezra_

Got this from the country side alliance mailshot this morning:

MANDATORY CERTIFICATION FOR DEER HUNTERS FROM 1st JANUARY 2018
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Tuesday, 31 October 2017
With effect from 1st January 2018, all first-time applicants for a Deer Hunting Licence (DHL) in the Republic of Ireland will be required to be certified as competent in knowledge of deer, including aspects such as hunting regulations and the law, under the provisions of the Deer Alliance Hunter Competence Assessment Programme (HCAP) or equivalent, before being issued with a DHL.
This applies whether their application is based on State forestry or on private land.


All hunters already holding a DHL as at 31st December 2017 will have a period of grace extending for five years to 31st December 2022 to become certified but from that date they too will require to be certified as competent.
HCAP was introduced in 2005 as a requirement for hunters on Coillte forest property but will now extend to private land. This follows a recommendation from the Irish Deer Management Forum to government, and some forty years of lobbying for mandatory testing and certification by the different deer organisations in Ireland.
The Deer Alliance Hunter Competence Assessment Programme is the only approved certification process in Ireland, covering the legislative and regulatory framework for deer hunting in Ireland.
There are currently approximately 4900 holders of the DHL in Ireland, of whom approximately half are already HCAP-Certified. Over the last three years, there have been approximately 600 new entrants to deer stalking each year, with only 200 retirements each year. In anticipation of a significant increase in applications in 2018, Deer Alliance will run a series of twelve Multiple Choice Question (MCQ) written assessments in 2018, supported by six Range Tests.
The full schedule will shortly be available on the News & Updates section of the Deer Alliance website, www.deeralliance.ie.
All applications will be handled on a first-come, first-served basis. All intending applicants are urged to apply in a timely fashion, and existing holders of the DHL in particular are urged not to leave it until the end of the five-year grace period to make application as they are unlikely to be facilitated in time to make the deadline. Application and payment can be made online through the Deer Alliance website.
The cost of HCAP remains €150.00, to include written assessment (MCQ) and Range Test.

gunny123

Who are the irish deer management forum when they are at home ?

Gleefulprinter

Seems to be farmer reps and gov reps. 2 members from deer control.
Googled it. Bloody joke of a thing.

ezra_

gunny123 wrote: »

Who are the irish deer management forum when they are at home ?

Their website suggests they are the people who actually run / administer the HCAP course

From their website:

About Deer Alliance.

The Deer Alliance was formed in 2003 in response to Coillte Teoranta's decision to seek a system of independent certification for persons hunting wild deer on Coillte forest property. The Alliance comprises the four leading Irish deer organisations – The Irish Deer Society, The Wild Deer Association of Ireland, Wicklow Deer Management & Conservation Group and the Wicklow Deer Society. These four organisations accepted the challenge to come up with a formula for a credible and independent assessment and certification model early in 2003. There followed almost a year of comparative study and assessment of different models used nationally and internationally, culminating in the decision to adopt the system of assessment now represented by the Hunter Competence Assessment Programme – or HCAP.

ganmo

gunny123 wrote: »

Who are the irish deer management forum when they are at home ?

https://www.agriculture.gov.ie/media/migration/forestry/deermanagement/IrishDeerManageForum1st151215.pdf

Grizzly 45

Ok, so this is now obviously a clear and present danger, seeing that they state it is on private land as well.HCAP has crept out of the Coilte lets and is after your wallet..So whats to be done?? One thing I can think of is someone needs to start an alternative course, as they hold a monopoly on this license.

Walter Mittys Brother

Any thoughts I had of looking for a deer permit are gone now. I'm not paying to do courses just so some gits can make money from me!

It won't be long before the rest of us have to do likewise so :eek::mad::mad:

Grizzly 45

Don't be surprised, if we start seeing them eyeing up winged game hunters as well in the future...I won't be.

dto001

A few things I would like to know is that as far as I know (open to correction) but don't all private bodies have to tender for government jobs was this tendered for? Will this money be paid back to the state? and where is the competition as this is the usual money grabbers trying to muscle out the small boys. I shoot on maximum 8 deer a year for meat not for sale etc. and if we all do this will we still have to apply every year with the same crap that happens now?
And will they next say we will have to do the meat handling course?
   

Grizzly 45

Correctomundo as The Fonz used to say.. HCAP was designed and was an insurance sop for Coilte, and that's all it is/was.Now,it's coming out of the state forest it is now going to have to tender, and the govt will have to put out to tender for this as well.Think some questions need to be raised in the Dail and by our organisations about this..When they are not infighting and at each other's throats that is...:rolleyes:

Cass

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

.So whats to be done?? .

My first thought is the legality of this.

The HCAP is a Coilte invention. The Deer Alliance are a private body, and the NPWS don't legislate.

So why do i need a Coilte invention on private land?
What licensing/authority/qualifications have the Deer Alliance outside of Coilte lands?
Where is the legislation to give the NPWS authority to refuse me a deer license without a course?

Remember the NPWS, as Grizz pointed out above, are the ones that have introduced, or tried to, all kids of their own laws like:

• 223 deer legal
• 220 Swift not legal
• 22-250 not legal
• 100 acres minimum
• etc.

Is this another case of them doing something off their own bat, but with no legal basis. If so they've sorely overstepped their authority.

This is the same crowd that called for night time Shooting ban along with the so called coalition. We were told this would never happen, so as also said above watch out for Ducks, Pheasants, foxes at night.

Pretty soon you won't be able to shoot sh*t without 19 forms, filled otu in triplicate, sent in, returned, lost, found, stamped and then by the time you get it the season for shooting has closed. However you'll still have had to pay a right sum for it.

Lastly the Deer alliance crowd. €150 per head for the HCAP. With some 2,500+ still to do it, and prety soon a trained hunter course. Well that adds up to, working with current number and no allowance for new DHL holders. :

• €375,000 in HCAP fees
• €1,100,000 in trained hunter fees

Not counting books, food, and other expenses i don't see listed. So who gets the nearly €1,500,000 over the next 5 years? Some private group made up of normal deer hunter (Deer Alliance is no different to the WDAI, or Irish Deer Society in terms of status), the NPWS (so much for it just being about preserving the species), or the Dept of A.H.R.GA?

Time for some E-mails to the NPWS asking the above questions.

Then to the Department of Arts, Heritage, Regional, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs as they oversee the NPWS.

Then to the DoJ asking them under what authority/legsilation the NPWS mean to stop me using my firearm on private grounds for which i was issued a license (firearms).

cavan shooter

I got this as an e mail from Countryside alliance, so dont think its a rumour anymore:

http://countrysideallianceireland.org/ie/shooting/mandatory-certification-for-deer-hunters-from-1st-january-2018?utm_campaign=197068_MANDATORY%20CERTIFICATION%20FOR%20DEER%20HUNTERS%20FROM%201st%20JANUARY%202018&utm_medium=dotmailer&utm_source=Countryside%20Alliance&dm_i=44G9,4824,1MJ8JH,GGJ8,1

meathstevie

At the moment there is as far as I can see no legislation supporting the mandatory passing of an exam to obtain a hunting licence. The only thing that's there is that the minister can impose conditions and issue the open season orders.

If we all need to pass an exam I suggest that the minister publishes an invitation to tender with the conditions attached very swiftly. If this is supposed to start in eight weeks it'll have to be done at the speed of light. Since this will involve amounts of money far in excess of the threshold to not go public it's actually already impossible to start this from January 2018.

For the amount of dough involved I can well imagine that BASC for example would be quite keen on sending over a few reps to run their stalker course and qualification tests.

Grizzly 45

Fact...Should strike while the iron is hot..some phone calls and emails en masse are required again..Yes, it is a PITFA to have to do this yet again.But compared to putting 250 euros in someone's pocket without seeing one red cent of it going back into the sport..I'd rather burn it on my phone and internet bill thanks very much...

dto001

Does anyone have the relevant email addresses?

gunny123

Do the deer poachers have to pass this exam too ?

Grizzly 45

Minister for arts, culture, Gaeltacht,[nature&stuff:P]-heather.humphreys@oir.ie

Constituency Offices
Unit 2, Mall Road,
Co.Monaghan,
Ireland.
Eircode: H18 X282
Tel: 047-71911 || Fax: 047-71912
E-mail: heather.humphreys@oir.ie
79 Market Street,
Cootehill,
Co. Cavan,
Ireland.
Eircode: H16 E681
Tel: (049) 555 5501

NPWS liscensing
Email: wildlifelicence@ahg.gov.ie
Tel: (01) 888 3298 or (01) 888 3275 or (01) 888 3249

Deer Alliance,
P.O. Box 1,
Borris,
Co. Carlow.

Phone Number 086 1927 845
Email Address deeralliance@gmail.com
Email Address www.deeralliance.ie

Just noticed something about the deer alliance...NO DATA PROTECTION NOTICE OR STATEMENT ON PRIVACY on their website.Handling personal information, and what they do with it naughty, naughty.They don't seem to come up as a regd entity with the Data protection office website either?

WDAI
:+353 (0)87 2496987
Email: wilddeerireland@gmail.com Facebook and Twitter accounts as well.

Cass

I was looking at some comments elsewhere and i find it, well i won't say surprising, interesting that some see this as unimportant, not a problem, and a tiny few think it's a good idea. It got me thinking. I wonder if those thinking it's alright have considered this. Bear with me:

• 2018 - Mandatory HCAP
• 2019 - Mandatory trained hunter course
• 2019 - "Refresher" courses every 3 years
• 2020 - Mandatory night time shooting license
• 2020 - Mandatory night shooting proficiency course
• 2021 - Graduated licensing
• 2021 - Mandatory Pheasant license
• 2022 - Mandatory Duck license
• 2023 - Vermin license

Now couple all the above with this:

• 2018 - Anyone with no HCAP (or no range membership) cannot have "deer legal" firearm (so goodbye 220 swift up to 300 winmag for anyone with one already)
• 2019 - Failure to complete course means loss of firearm and hunting license
• 2020 - Anyone without a night shooting license/course looses their firearm (Goodbye 22lr, 17hme, 22wmr, .204 and on up to 223, etc)
• 2020 - Anyone without a license cannot hold a shotgun (unless part of a clay range)
• 2021 - Anyone that cannot pass the graduated licensing tests cannot get the gun they actually need/want so are stuck on say a 22lr. With no reason for 22lr they loose it.
• 2023 - Anyone with no vermin license looses their firearm (goodbye to everything that is left).

Now the person that thought the mandatory deer course (HCAP) was no big deal finds themselves in 5 years sitting at home watching the great british bakeoff wondering where their sport went.

In the meantime hundreds of thousands, dare i say millions, of Euro have been paid out by the few thousand willing and able to pay for all the fees, courses, training, licenses, etc over the years.

Where does that money go? Those running the courses don't do it for free so they'll get some. The various bodies such as the NPWS, well they cannot get funding for a toothbrush as it is, and i've yet to see direct investment from "taxation" in anything in this country, so nothing improves there. If it goes to the Dept then it's gobbled up and spat out as some new Gallery for painting with toilet brushes so no help there.

The cycle continues until the few thousand left in any part of the sport cannot be bothered or afford it anymore. As numbers drop off so to does the various sports that are/were left.

By 2030 were all playing golf and it starts all over again. Smaller "caliber" golf balls, anything over a 3 iron is restricted, reduced club limits (no more than 10 clubs), only playing the front nine as the back nine is off limits from Sept to March, etc, etc.

God i love this country. Bad enough our politicians do us without vaseline, but our own come in for sloppy seconds. (excuse the vulgarity, a little miffed at this whole thing).

Grizzly 45

meathstevie wrote: »

A

If we all need to pass an exam I suggest that the minister publishes an invitation to tender with the conditions attached very swiftly. If this is supposed to start in eight weeks it'll have to be done at the speed of light. Since this will involve amounts of money far in excess of the threshold to not go public it's actually already impossible to start this from January 2018.
.

BEWARE THE DAIL XMAS BREAK!
How many bills are rushed thru with the whip and guillotine, not even a quarter discussed and debated, before the overworked dears must rush off to deal with their constituency matters in a four-week long break over Christmas?
Remember the rod license war in the 1980s?It started just like a situation like this and this time period of the year..Another reason I hate Christmas!:mad:

270WIN

IMO the WDAOI have a lot to answer for all this crap.. They have pushed membership on anyone who loves looking at photos of bambi...i bet lots of their membership never shot a deer in their life..now they are an authority on all things deer. The top table there have designs on making deer stalking here the very same as the UK (a sport for the select few) They want the ordinary lad with a 243 and a few permissions out of the sport so that the select few (themselves and their cronies) can control everything. The days of free stalking are numbered.

Grizzly 45

Was just looking at my Buck Knife and thought of this as a campaign or whatever slogan? Buck = deer or money??...

Sika98k

cavan shooter wrote: »

I got this as an e mail from Countryside alliance, so dont think its a rumour anymore:

http://countrysideallianceireland.org/ie/shooting/mandatory-certification-for-deer-hunters-from-1st-january-2018?utm_campaign=197068_MANDATORY%20CERTIFICATION%20FOR%20DEER%20HUNTERS%20FROM%201st%20JANUARY%202018&utm_medium=dotmailer&utm_source=Countryside%20Alliance&dm_i=44G9,4824,1MJ8JH,GGJ8,1

I had a quick read of that. "Will be required ". By whom exactly ? NPWS ? Private landowners ? Your insurance company ? Say it often and loud enough and it becomes Gospel.

dto001

Email sent to the minister:)

cavan shooter

gunny123 wrote: »

Do the deer poachers have to pass this exam too ?

could be running the courses for all you know...:rolleyes:

dto001

https://www.change.org/p/heather-stop-the-hcap-becoming-mandatory-for-deer-hunting

Best Bitter

The comments posted on this forum,"MANDATORY CERTIFICATION FOR DEER HUNTERS" really are surprising.

I welcome this decision, it was long overdue!!!

Passing an exam is a prerequisite to being allowed to hunt in many European countries. Not
like it is in Ireland, where anyone with a rifle can hunt on privately owned land after getting
a licence.
Obviously the issue for most people isn`t the "enormous financial impact" of maybe € 300
which sitting the exam might cost. Instead, it is a matter of wanting to continue doing
something the way its previously been done.

So everyone, let`s not complain and instead sit down and start stuying for the exam. I am
sure that erveryone who passes the exam will have learned something new!

gunny123

Best Bitter wrote: »

The comments posted on this forum,"MANDATORY CERTIFICATION FOR DEER HUNTERS" really are surprising.

I welcome this decision, it was long overdue!!!

Passing an exam is a prerequisite to being allowed to hunt in many European countries. Not
like it is in Ireland, where anyone with a rifle can hunt on privately owned land after getting
a licence.
Obviously the issue for most people isn`t the "enormous financial impact" of maybe € 300
which sitting the exam might cost. Instead, it is a matter of wanting to continue doing
something the way its previously been done.

So everyone, let`s not complain and instead sit down and start stuying for the exam. I am
sure that erveryone who passes the exam will have learned something new!

Who are you ? What deer org are you fronting ?

Uinseann_16

Best Bitter wrote: »

The comments posted on this forum,"MANDATORY CERTIFICATION FOR DEER HUNTERS" really are surprising.

I welcome this decision, it was long overdue!!!

Passing an exam is a prerequisite to being allowed to hunt in many European countries. Not
like it is in Ireland, where anyone with a rifle can hunt on privately owned land after getting
a licence.
Obviously the issue for most people isn`t the "enormous financial impact" of maybe € 300
which sitting the exam might cost. Instead, it is a matter of wanting to continue doing
something the way its previously been done.

So everyone, let`s not complain and instead sit down and start stuying for the exam. I am
sure that erveryone who passes the exam will have learned something new!

For some 300 Euro is a lot that is half the price of my 308 and scope which i bought for my first season deer shooting this year im still in school and its a fair bit of money for me to be handing out and it is a huge financial impact on me that is 300 euro less for ammo and gear which means less shooting time for me why? Just because a select few want to line their pockets or force the ordinary man out of the sport? I think that is bullsh!t

dto001

Best Bitter wrote: »

The comments posted on this forum,"MANDATORY CERTIFICATION FOR DEER HUNTERS" really are surprising.

I welcome this decision, it was long overdue!!!

Passing an exam is a prerequisite to being allowed to hunt in many European countries. Not
like it is in Ireland, where anyone with a rifle can hunt on privately owned land after getting
a licence.
Obviously the issue for most people isn`t the "enormous financial impact" of maybe € 300
which sitting the exam might cost. Instead, it is a matter of wanting to continue doing
something the way its previously been done.

So everyone, let`s not complain and instead sit down and start stuying for the exam. I am
sure that erveryone who passes the exam will have learned something new!

This is you opinion and you are welcome to it but then why does it have to be forced through. You are more than welcome to take the test if that what you wish but I have been hunting deer (with my father) since i was 7 years of age I do not know everything probably not half of it but why should someone who has decided to write a course in 2006 think that they know more than me (maybe they do) but who trained them??? The expense this would add to me to shoot 6-8 deer for the pot every year would stop me altogether!! 
Also as its the EU and you think we should be the same as them all why aren't courses from other European countries accepted?
As was mentioned above where will it stop? It won't because it set precedent and everyone will jump on the band wagon next we'll have to do a special course on how to shoot pigeons!!! 
Why also has this not been voted on by all people involved in the sport not just a couple of people in a society? especially ones which try to stop people shooting at night to keep their part of the sport safe but to hell with the others 
Why should I not be allowed teach my kids how to hunt deer? The Gun safety side has already been taken care of as all new licensees have to have completed a safety course before they can get a gun license.So the field craft should be allowed to be taught by me and if they want to take the course then fine that is their choice.
In what way does it protect the sport? is it going to stop poaching? Is it going to stop bad practices? I doubt any of this will happen but one crowd will make a lot of money and this will probably all disappear in a couple of years on fact finding missions and we will still have the same problems.
Why not lobby for 40 years to get extra rangers/funding for the NPWS? 
its bad enough that shooting sport is declining without trying to kill it altogether!

juice1304

The course has nothing to do with fieldcraft it is a shooting exam and a test to see if you can identify potential diseases and where to shoot the deer along with basic law in relation to hunting deer.
I have nothing to do with any of these organizations nor would i as i have seen how they are all run like everything in Ireland it is usually a bunch of idiots looking for control.
However, i will say in a sense the test is not a bad idea. I already did the HCAP a few years ago simply to have it. And while at the tests there were many many "expert deer stalkers" there who of course knew it all up until the point they had to tick the few multiple choice question and shoot the few shots.
I found the standard of shooting to be quite shocking considering the majority of the shots were supported and all within 100m some of them were shooting three times..
I think how it will end up with one of these groups running **** courses is a shame, but if it were done right and not at a crazy cost the idea is good.
If it was done how it is done in America it would be great.
Also find yourselves lucky in Germany it is €3000 to do the hunting licence with a 75% fail rate the majority of the courses are run over a six month period too and unless you own land yourself it is crazy money like 700 a hecter where i am at the moment, along with the fact that the hunter pays the farmer for any damage to the land, crops, equipment or fencing etc.. that the animals do throughout the year. A friend of mine had to pay out €20,000 last year from damage done by the wild boar.

grassroot1

Best Bitter wrote: »

The comments posted on this forum,"MANDATORY CERTIFICATION FOR DEER HUNTERS" really are surprising.

I welcome this decision, it was long overdue!!!

Passing an exam is a prerequisite to being allowed to hunt in many European countries. Not
like it is in Ireland, where anyone with a rifle can hunt on privately owned land after getting
a licence.
Obviously the issue for most people isn`t the "enormous financial impact" of maybe € 300
which sitting the exam might cost. Instead, it is a matter of wanting to continue doing
something the way its previously been done.

So everyone, let`s not complain and instead sit down and start stuying for the exam. I am
sure that erveryone who passes the exam will have learned something new!

Another "brilliant" first post at exactly the right time!!!

grassroot1

juice1304 wrote: »

The course has nothing to do with fieldcraft it is a shooting exam and a test to see if you can identify potential diseases and where to shoot the deer along with basic law in relation to hunting deer.
I have nothing to do with any of these organizations nor would i as i have seen how they are all run like everything in Ireland it is usually a bunch of idiots looking for control.
However, i will say in a sense the test is not a bad idea. I already did the HCAP a few years ago simply to have it. And while at the tests there were many many "expert deer stalkers" there who of course knew it all up until the point they had to tick the few multiple choice question and shoot the few shots.
I found the standard of shooting to be quite shocking considering the majority of the shots were supported and all within 100m some of them were shooting three times..
I think how it will end up with one of these groups running **** courses is a shame, but if it were done right and not at a crazy cost the idea is good.
If it was done how it is done in America it would be great.
Also find yourselves lucky in Germany it is €3000 to do the hunting licence with a 75% fail rate the majority of the courses are run over a six month period too and unless you own land yourself it is crazy money like 700 a hecter where i am at the moment, along with the fact that the hunter pays the farmer for any damage to the land, crops, equipment or fencing etc.. that the animals do throughout the year. A friend of mine had to pay out €20,000 last year from damage done by the wild boar.

Yes but you are in Germany and we are in Ireland.
I shoot by the good graces of my neighbours I dont need a test or an exam. There are plenty of good books on stalking and deer management. I can zero my rifle at anytime I dont need anyone to hold my hand.
What exactly will a made up course do for me or my sport?

dto001

juice1304 wrote: »

The course has nothing to do with fieldcraft it is a shooting exam and a test to see if you can identify potential diseases and where to shoot the deer along with basic law in relation to hunting deer.
I have nothing to do with any of these organizations nor would i as i have seen how they are all run like everything in Ireland it is usually a bunch of idiots looking for control.
However, i will say in a sense the test is not a bad idea. I already did the HCAP a few years ago simply to have it. And while at the tests there were many many "expert deer stalkers" there who of course knew it all up until the point they had to tick the few multiple choice question and shoot the few shots.
I found the standard of shooting to be quite shocking considering the majority of the shots were supported and all within 100m some of them were shooting three times..
I think how it will end up with one of these groups running **** courses is a shame, but if it were done right and not at a crazy cost the idea is good.
If it was done how it is done in America it would be great.
Also find yourselves lucky in Germany it is €3000 to do the hunting licence with a 75% fail rate the majority of the courses are run over a six month period too and unless you own land yourself it is crazy money like 700 a hecter where i am at the moment, along with the fact that the hunter pays the farmer for any damage to the land, crops, equipment or fencing etc.. that the animals do throughout the year. A friend of mine had to pay out €20,000 last year from damage done by the wild boar.

You are saying that knowing about diseases is not about field craft that i will have to disagree with you on.
I'm not saying I know it all(probably far from it) but what makes them any better? 
As you are saying everything that is run in Ireland....... and if this gets through it will end up a money maker for these organisations and the time to stop is now not in a couple of years when everyone say ''o s*@te we shouldn't have let that happen then and my kids are saying why do I have to pay for all this when you didn't!!!
If the world was a perfect place all these "good ideas" would be workable but unfortunately common sense does not prevail anymore but greed does!!!
In relation to bad shooting in every country there are bad shots it could be just that you were on with a bad crew or nerves is a good one as people watching doesn't help!
Excuse all the reposts not sure what happened:(

juice1304

grassroot1 wrote: »

Yes but you are in Germany and we are in Ireland.
I shoot by the good graces of my neighbours I dont need a test or an exam. There are plenty of good books on stalking and deer management. I can zero my rifle at anytime I dont need anyone to hold my hand.
What exactly will a made up course do for me or my sport?

Well maybe everyone else who graces gods earth is not as perfect and need the test so as not to injure themselves, others or the animal they are shooting. I have had close calls with "experienced hunters" several times, someone shooting right past my head while stalking because they saw a deer i was ten paces ahead of them.., ive seen people accidentally discharge not unloading climbing over a fence etc..
Many people are ignorant to what caliber they should be actually using instead of being sold whatever the local dealer has who himself may not have a clue..
The same goes for the type of ammunition people should use, or shot placement.
Also i am Irish and hunt in Ireland.
Like i have already said "If" it were run properly and was "free" it would be nothing but good. So please hold of on burning me at the stake.
And i don't see the great surprise to this in all fairness considering it is the same throughout Europe and is even mandatory in the land of the gun across the atlantic.

juice1304

dto001 wrote: »

You are saying that knowing about diseases is not about field craft that i will have to disagree with you on.
I'm not saying I know it all at all but as you are saying everything that is run in Ireland....... and if this gets through it will end up a money maker for these organisations and the time to stop is now not in a couple of years when everyone say ''o s*@te we shouldn't have let that happen then and my kids are saying why do I have to pay for all this when you didn't!!!
If the world was a perfect place all these "good ideas" would be workable but unfortunately common sense does not prevail anymore but greed does!!!

You are saying that knowing about diseases is not about field craft that i will have to disagree with you on.
I'm not saying I know it all at all but as you are saying everything that is run in Ireland....... and if this gets through it will end up a money maker for these organisations and the time to stop is now not in a couple of years when everyone say ''o s*@te we shouldn't have let that happen then and my kids are saying why do I have to pay for all this when you didn't!!!
If the world was a perfect place all these "good ideas" would be workable but unfortunately common sense does not prevail anymore but greed does!!!

Im saying it is not like in England or Germany where you have to do a hunting apprenticeship and have to go out with other hunters who actually teach you everything in the field. Which would take away your chance to teach your young lad. Where as in ireland you answer a list of questions that can be learned off in ten minutes.

dto001

juice1304 wrote: »

dto001 wrote: »

You are saying that knowing about diseases is not about field craft that i will have to disagree with you on.
I'm not saying I know it all at all but as you are saying everything that is run in Ireland....... and if this gets through it will end up a money maker for these organisations and the time to stop is now not in a couple of years when everyone say ''o s*@te we shouldn't have let that happen then and my kids are saying why do I have to pay for all this when you didn't!!!
If the world was a perfect place all these "good ideas" would be workable but unfortunately common sense does not prevail anymore but greed does!!!

You are saying that knowing about diseases is not about field craft that i will have to disagree with you on.
I'm not saying I know it all at all but as you are saying everything that is run in Ireland....... and if this gets through it will end up a money maker for these organisations and the time to stop is now not in a couple of years when everyone say ''o s*@te we shouldn't have let that happen then and my kids are saying why do I have to pay for all this when you didn't!!!
If the world was a perfect place all these "good ideas" would be workable but unfortunately common sense does not prevail anymore but greed does!!!

Im saying it is not like in England or Germany where you have to do a hunting apprenticeship and have to go out with other hunters who actually teach you everything in the field.  Which would take away your chance to teach your young lad. Where as in ireland you answer a list of questions that can be learned off in ten minutes.

For now its a list of questions that can be learned off in ten minutes next it'll be meat handling course then it'll we you have to be a member of a society and on and on. There are simply too many money making opportunities. I actually Learned from an experienced hunter aka my father which was kind of like an apprenticeship. 
I do not object anyone trying to learn or teach others its just it is becoming a money racket at this point as we had a couple of months ago with the night shooting it was the same crowd protecting their own!!

yubabill1

dto001 wrote: »

https://www.change.org/p/heather-stop-the-hcap-becoming-mandatory-for-deer-hunting

17 signatures including mine.

Grizzly 45

cavan shooter wrote: »

could be running the courses for all you know...:rolleyes:

They have already been and done the course no doubt.Even Inspector Google late of AGS did it.:P
Change.org shared on FB and Firearmsunited Ireland.
Phone calls made to two prominent politicians. One wants to meet tomorrow.

Grizzly 45

juice1304 wrote: »

Also find yourselves lucky in Germany it is €3000 to do the hunting licence with a 75% fail rate the majority of the courses are run over a six month period too and unless you own land yourself it is crazy money like 700 a hecter where i am at the moment, along with the fact that the hunter pays the farmer for any damage to the land, crops, equipment or fencing etc.. that the animals do throughout the year. A friend of mine had to pay out €20,000 last year from damage done by the wild boar.

You are being screwed!!
Go to the Ozzi states of former East Germany and you can do it within 30 days at a lot less than that.Also, it isn't comparing like and like at all.Seeing that first HCAP has a lot of German hunting test in it, that is total if not borderline relevant to irrevelant to Ireland.The reason the German hunting test is so detailed, they call it "the green Leaving cert"[Das Grune Abituer] is because hunting in Germany is a LIFESTYLE CHOICE, not a hobby.Shooting something in Germany is 5% of the entire hunting lifestyle, and because the Germans have a long and traditional hunting history and ethics as well as their own language for the hunt, something like 70% of that test takes up that time frame.

As you pointed out, yes it is needed in the USA for an annual hunting license.But have you seen the NRA hunter safety course.You can do it online and its FREE and you have your results back within seconds of completing each course segment.You then book in your state a day's practical course, which is more on GUN SAFETY while hunting, stroll and shoot some targets safely, and that's it.You are now a certified safe hunter and can apply online for your state hunting license.

THAT is how you do a hunting test these days.Not pay for a manual, which has blatant inaccuracy and is badly put together.Then wait six months to do a course in the middle of nowhere, go to a range, if you pass a multiple choice paper on paper[FFS this island wants to be ahead in the cyber world and attract
computor and internet companies here? PLLLEEEAAASSSSEE!!].Then drive to a range to shoot at ridiculous distances on a stationary target for 250 euros and other costs, so I can hunt?On Private property,where the owner doesn't give a fiddley for my paper qualifications? FUK THAT!!: mad::mad:

If this comes to fruition and there is a fair competition and open tender.I propose any such course could be done online for 30 euros and 100 euros at most for the actual shoot course which could be done in a DAY at Midlands Do the whole thing online at your own pace. 75% padding, time wasting and HCAP BS removed already.

Cass

Best Bitter wrote: »

Passing an exam is a prerequisite to being allowed to hunt in many European countries. Not like it is in Ireland, where anyone with a rifle can hunt on privately owned land after getting a licence.

Why the constant need to compare us to other countries? What works elsewhere does not mean it should be implemented here.

Obviously the issue for most people isn`t the "enormous financial impact" of maybe € 300 which sitting the exam might cost. Instead, it is a matter of wanting to continue doing something the way its previously been done.

I'm delighted you can makes snippy comments regarding €300. it's a lot of money for others.

We have a long, long history of fieldsport in this country and it was always passed down from generation to generation. Only in the last few years when people have registered businesses for shooting schools, "centres of excellence", and training facilities have the calls for such courses become more prevalent.

Funny that.

So everyone, let`s not complain and instead sit down and start stuying for the exam. I am sure that erveryone who passes the exam will have learned something new!

Wow.

Give in much. As was said above what association do you represent because as of now you have given reason for why these should be introduced only that the "sheeple" should get in line like good little boys.

juice1304 wrote: »

I found the standard of shooting to be quite shocking considering the majority of the shots were supported and all within 100m some of them were shooting three times..

Yup.

Fail the shooting part, take it again. Fail that, pay again, and go again. Repeat until you pass.

Congrats you're competent.

Also it should be called the HPAP as it has nothing to do with competence and judges your proficiency. Now they want to introduce proficiency into shooting, something that should be opposed at all costs.

juice1304 wrote: »

Well maybe everyone else who graces gods earth is not as perfect and need the test so as not to injure themselves, others or the animal they are shooting. I have had close calls with "experienced hunters" several times, someone shooting right past my head while stalking because they saw a deer i was ten paces ahead of them.., ive seen people accidentally discharge not unloading climbing over a fence etc..

How exactly would the HCAP address these as it doesn't cover them? Or were you referring tot he German test?

Many people are ignorant to what caliber they should be actually using instead of being sold whatever the local dealer has who himself may not have a clue..
The same goes for the type of ammunition people should use, or shot placement.

Shot placement perhaps, but none of the rest is covered in the HCAP.

And i don't see the great surprise to this in all fairness considering it is the same throughout Europe and is even mandatory in the land of the gun across the atlantic.

Again we do not need to keep looking to other countries to further restrict out shooting sports.

Jesus we've gone for hundreds of years without them and got on just fine. If someone wants to educate themselves some more then have at it, but the mandatory application of such courses is not going to address poaching, improve the standard, and will not stop as deer.

Grizzly 45

Best Bitter wrote: »

. I am
sure that erveryone who passes the exam will have learned something new!

They sure as fuk won't learn anything worthwhile from that HCAP manual that's for sure! :rolleyes:
NEVER in my life seen such a badly put together teaching manual.:mad::mad:

grassroot1

juice1304 wrote: »

Well maybe everyone else who graces gods earth is not as perfect and need the test so as not to injure themselves, others or the animal they are shooting. I have had close calls with "experienced hunters" several times, someone shooting right past my head while stalking because they saw a deer i was ten paces ahead of them.., ive seen people accidentally discharge not unloading climbing over a fence etc..
Many people are ignorant to what caliber they should be actually using instead of being sold whatever the local dealer has who himself may not have a clue..
The same goes for the type of ammunition people should use, or shot placement.
Also i am Irish and hunt in Ireland.
Like i have already said "If" it were run properly and was "free" it would be nothing but good. So please hold of on burning me at the stake.
And i don't see the great surprise to this in all fairness considering it is the same throughout Europe and is even mandatory in the land of the gun across the atlantic.

Please tell me how shooting at target range and answering 30 multiple choice questions will make the idiot that nearly shot you any safer?
Choice of caliber(we only get to use what we are let cant see that changing)
Shot placement(everyone has a different choice depending on conditions cant see anyone changing either)
Oh and I can assure you it will not be free!!!

Cass

Some ask why the opposition. Well here ya go. My reasons for opposing it.

1. The NPWS and Deer Alliance have no authority to introduce any mandatory courses.
2. There is no legislation in place to support this.
3. An SI (someone floated the idea) cannot supersede primary legislation, of which none exists (for this exact topic).
4. The HCAP was introduced for shooters on Coilte land. It is a CYA exercise.
5. The HCAP was written by deer stalkers so what are their qualifications? I don't mean 30, 40, 50 years shooting, i mean registered, verifiable, qualifications.
6. Coilte demand this cert, but what official recognition does it have (An Gardaí, DoJ, DoE, DoA.R.H.GA., etc)
7. Where does the money go? Even now, presently, who gets it and how is it spent?
8. Introducing proficiency as a prerequisite for a license is a dangerous precedence. How do you measure proficiency, what national standards are there, and who determines it's met (leads back to the qualifications of those deeming how proficient a person is).
9. It will not combat poaching.
10. Poaching is a criminal act, and those that do it are already breaking the law. How will further legislation stop those already intent on breaking the current laws?
11. More legislation is not needed, only enforcement of the current legislation which comes under the guise of more rangers and stronger punishment for those caught.
12. **This one is less factual and more emotive** I'ts my gun, licensed by An Gardaí who deem me competent, and private permissions given to me by land owners so the deer alliance have no say in what i do.