Compulsory HCAP - Cancelled

Cass

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Another thing that boils my piss here is this "Ah shure,nuthin we can do, might as well accept it"itis is creeping in on social media with Irish deer stalking groups. Is this some kind of heredity disease that affects Irish gun owners when any sort of a challange arrives??

Exactly. It has happened before when a rumor spread so much that it was taken as fact.

The Deer Alliance along with the other interest groups, who have a huge vested interest in such courses being mandatory, come out and state that the courses are now mandatory. They say they informed us all in plenty of time, but i don't ever remember seeing a notice, sign or reminders since the proposal.

People read that the courses are now mandatory and the first couple of days since it's announcement i see social media filled with comments about how people will have to do the course, and others saying they might as well give up shooting. Not one comment about how to oppose these proposals, challenge their legality and call the groups that will benefit from these courses to task.

After over a fortnight of discussing it a petition has been started, letter/e-mails have been sent and people are now realising that it's not a clear cut case just because they say so.

However with over 140,000 people involved in shooting sports the response has been low. Still with over 400 signatures out of some 4,000 license holders the percentage is better than previous incidents, but still can be improved upon.

Cass

Kat1170 wrote: »

I say almost because you'll never cut it out completely.

No you won't, but the term poaching is used incorrectly, imo, a lot of the time.

We speak of poaching as though it is rampant throughout the country. The simple fact is we don't know to what extent poaching is occurring. There has never been a census on deer numbers. The returns each year are based on the integrity and intelligence of the people giving them which means they're not reliable. If people under report their numbers or give returns which are wrong (misidentification of the species) then the numbers are less than reflective of the true returns.

Without knowing these facts the only poaching we can identify is the truly illegal acts and out of those only the ones that are caught. These cases number in the single to low double digits each year.

People involved in illegality, like with illegal firearms, will continue to poach and shoot regardless because there is a demand. Does anyone really believe that eliminating game meat sales will stop those already breaking the law? They will only find another way to sell without the need to go through a dealer. It may even push more people into the illegal "zone" as they may stand to loose thousands per year.

Also what of the issue of those with the legal type of firearm and appropriate hunting license, but who shoot dozens to hundreds of deer a year and then sell those deer? They stand to loose a significant amount of their annual income. There is no regulation of selling game other than the need for a trained hunter meat handling course. So people shooting for profit would, again IMO, outweigh those that poach completely illegally.

The game dealers are not cause of this and eliminating them is not the solution. Mandatory courses will not affect poaching one bit and will do absolutely nothing to combat illegality and only serve to make money from an already harshly restricted section of the sporting world.

So what can be done?

I honestly don't know. There is no single, foolproof, method to eliminate it. You said so yourself and you're right. However some "simple" remedies would have other consequences that would not be seen until it's too late. That doesn't mean we do nothing either, but to allow these groups with a vested interest in making money and no plan or agenda to do something constructive for the sport is wrong and should not go unopposed.

In case anyone thinks that last bit is harsh then i'll remind you what the Deer Alliance said in their rebuttal/clarification remarks:

Deer Alliance wrote:

By virtue of its structure and achievements over a twelve to sixteen-year period, HCAP is established as the benchmark for equivalence and it is difficult to see how or why an alternative course provider would come forward, other than for purely commercial reasons.

The highlighted part is the interesting part. What they are saying is now that people have copped onto the fact that the deer alliance have NO range of their own, and that anyone else could run a similar course that if they [other groups/people] do this then it's only for monetary reasons, and not the benefit of the sport.

I suppose the Deer Alliance do it out of the goodness of their heart!!!!!!!!! :rolleyes:

gunny123

Kat1170 wrote: »

I've said it before and I'll say it again, the easiest and most cost effective way to almost cut out poaching is to ban all cash dealings with the game dealers. It worked to almost eradicate the stealing of metal when introduced in London and I am certain it would do the same with poaching here.

I say almost because you'll never cut it out completely.

Done i believe by way of the seller having to show/have photocopied, their driving licence. So it could work, a lad turns up with a load of shot deer in a van, "fine, we need to see you driving licence", so a record of who is bringing in what to a game dealers is kept. That and regular inspections of the game dealers, who seem to be getting away with murder in all this, should help.

dto001

Cass wrote: »

However with over 140,000 people involved in shooting sports the response has been low. Still with over 400 signatures out of some 4,000 license holders the percentage is better than previous incidents, but still can be improved upon.

Is there anyway of increasing this number?? maybe alot of people haven't heard about it etc?
Has anyone gotten anything from the NARGC on this?

Grizzly 45

Thinking outside the box
Of course, this won't work because it requires man hours and some detective work on part of the PTB...
AMMO sales...So for these people to shoot the amount of deer claimed, to supply the dealers they must be buying literally over a thousand rounds per season from firearms dealers. Now taking into account, zeroing, misses etc.That is still at least 800 rounds per season.Factor in then, what is the most common calibre for deer hunting here.243,270,308,6.5 Swede?.
Cost of CF ammo is no joke anymore, especially hunting ammo, and even more so in odd calibres around here? I would estimate that is at least 900 to 1000 euros of ammo per person bought for those numbers being returned, or rumoured to be brought into game dealers.

So what is stopping the PTB, from going thru all the licensed names for stalkers,cross-correlating those who they suspect of poaching to their ammo purchases nationwide?[It's not like there are gun dealers on every street corner here.] Someone with a high round count and a minimum amount of deer being returned, is saying the guy is either a very bad shot, or he isn't being straight with deer being brought in. Some police work required, willingness to do so is why this wont happen.
Also, on the side, has anyone bothered to check poaching site incidents for spent brass???

Close down the game dealers for 5 years to sale of wild deer.
Simply, because it is the "go to " source of cash for these people.They aren't interested in carting around deer carcasses to restaurants or butchers to flog them off. Did you know that in the US, any deer you eat in a restaurant is farmed deer?
The US has had for decades a prohibition on selling the wild game for commercial purposes.You can donate or give away any meat to friends, relatives, etc, but you cant trade or sell it in any shape or form. % years would give the population a chance to "reset" and for NPWS and Co a window to do proper herd counts, without manpower intensive suggestions in the HCAP manual... Trail cams and mineral licks and the odd bale of fresh hay in January are mighty things lads..:)
If there is such a market for venison in that time frame, surely somebody will consider opening a deer farm to cover the demand?

Remove the "aisey money" from any aspect of Irish life and the Cowboys move on to the next racket, as they won't hang around to wait five years if a cash flow dries up.

BTW, you do all know you can sell as a stalker, qualified or otherwise,"small amounts" to retail outlets of game , under EU directives?

4.2 Hunter Exemption for the Supply of Small Quantities of Primary Products
European food law makes provision for the scenario where small quantities of wild game primary products, e.g. in the fur or in the feather eviscerated, or non-eviscerated wild game bodies, may be supplied either directly to the final consumer or to local retail establishments, e.g. a retail butcher or restaurant who directly supply the final consumer.

hunter supplying in such a manner is exempt from Regulation (EC) No 852/2004 which sets general hygiene rules applying to all food businesses; and Regulation (EC) No 853/2004 which sets additional hygiene rules applying to businesses producing food of animal origin but must comply with the requirements of Regulation (EC) No 178/2002 such as the obligation to produce safe food and have a traceability system in place

From the Food safety authority manual 2014 Guidance on game processing for human consumption
Now what "small quantities" are is another matter here.:p

Grizzly 45

gunny123 wrote: »

Done i believe by way of the seller having to show/have photocopied, their driving licence. So it could work, a lad turns up with a load of shot deer in a van, "fine, we need to see you driving licence", so a record of who is bringing in what to a game dealers is kept. That and regular inspections of the game dealers, who seem to be getting away with murder in all this, should help.

Thing is; these dealers are making so much money per season, it is nothing to them to have 20k cash on the day in the district court, if they are charged, as that is the max a DC can fine ,to pay up and continue.20k is a seasons "operational expense" to some of them.:(

Grizzly 45

dto001 wrote: »

Is there anyway of increasing this number?? maybe alot of people haven't heard about it etc?
Has anyone gotten anything from the NARGC on this?

Seeing that the NARGC supposedly has a person sitting on this Wild deer management forum. One Mr Sean Doris[absent from the 3rd meeting in 2015].
Some questions should be asked of him, or his replacement?
Along with Messers
Damian Hannigan Wild Deer Association of Ireland Hunting
Liam Nolan Deer Alliance Training

John Fenton Association of Game Shoot Operators (AGSO)
[Who the Hell are they?Never heard of them?]

As to who exactly did they consult outside their respective organisations as to whether the general pouplation of stalkers were ok with this?.None of these people or their organisations spoke to me or for me.

https://www.agriculture.gov.ie/media/migration/forestry/deermanagement/IrishDeerManageForum1st151215.pdf
https://www.agriculture.gov.ie/media/migration/forestry/deermanagement/IrishDeerManageForum2nd151215.pdf
/www.agriculture.gov.ie/media/migration/forestry/deermanagement/IrishDeerManageForum3rd151215.pdf

Those three documents make for interesting reading...Nowhere is there any discussion of this idea of licensing ,apart from est a working group in document 2. Make of it what you want, but it looks like another grandly titled organisation with massive chaos .

Kat1170

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Seeing that the NARGC supposedly has a person sitting on this Wild deer management forum. One Mr Sean Doris[absent from the 3rd meeting in 2015].
Some questions should be asked of him, or his replacement?
Along with Messers
Damian Hannigan Wild Deer Association of Ireland Hunting
Liam Nolan Deer Alliance Training

John Fenton Association of Game Shoot Operators (AGSO)
[Who the Hell are they?Never heard of them?]

As to who exactly did they consult outside their respective organisations as to whether the general pouplation of stalkers were ok with this?.None of these people or their organisations spoke to me or for me.

https://www.agriculture.gov.ie/media/migration/forestry/deermanagement/IrishDeerManageForum1st151215.pdf
https://www.agriculture.gov.ie/media/migration/forestry/deermanagement/IrishDeerManageForum2nd151215.pdf
/www.agriculture.gov.ie/media/migration/forestry/deermanagement/IrishDeerManageForum3rd151215.pdf

Those three documents make for interesting reading...Nowhere is there any discussion of this idea of licensing ,apart from est a working group in document 2. Make of it what you want, but it looks like another grandly titled organisation with massive chaos .

Who is .............. ??

John Fenton
HERE and HERE, both of which will make it quite clear which side his bread is buttered :mad:

Liam Nolan ie. Mr. HCAP has already quadrupled the number of MULTIPLE CHOICE QUESTION EXAMINATIONS (MCQs) he runs shouting at the top of his lungs the word MANDITORY as many times as he can on said website :mad::mad:

Cass

gunny123 wrote: »

Done i believe by way of the seller having to show/have photocopied, their driving licence. So it could work, a lad turns up with a load of shot deer in a van, "fine, we need to see you driving licence", so a record of who is bringing in what to a game dealers is kept. That and regular inspections of the game dealers, who seem to be getting away with murder in all this, should help.

This was all put under the trained hunter course. You must do the course, and then you provide your PRSI/PPS number along with the cert. no and other identifying details. The dealer is supposed to record your details, the amount of deer handed over/sold and other details such as species, weight, etc. The hunter must also keep a log of the amount shot, where, species, etc. They are liable for tax on any income gained from the deer sold and must abide by FSAI standards when/if preparing the meat themselves.

So once again the infrastructure is in place, but like with all new legislation it was brought in to make us self police as they still have no one to police the old laws and now the new ones.

Another example of how new legislation won't combat anything unless it's enforced.

dto001 wrote: »

Is there anyway of increasing this number?? maybe alot of people haven't heard about it etc?

Print off the petition or a version of it and have club members sign it. Then collect other forms from other clubs and submit them as a lot. Also leave copies at any ranges you're a member of and do the same. Collect signatures and send them in.

Anyone you know send an e-mail with the petition link in it. Explain to them what it is and have them sign it online. Takes two seconds.
Has anyone gotten anything from the NARGC on this?[/QUOTE]
No idea as i haven't spoken to anyone from the NARGC about this but an e-mail wouldn't go astray.

Hunter456

Asked Liam Nolan a simple question the other night on Facebook and still waiting on a reply i asked how will the money generated from the HCAP be spent my suggestions were employ and train rangers actually put it back into the system where its needed not on silly seminars and bull**** outings, they are just trying to push out the ordinary lad from deer stalking and keep it for them selves.

ezra_

This seems to have gone quiet

ayagerard

ezra_ wrote: »

This seems to have gone quiet

hopefully its just like a kettle on the hob with the gas on full ,progress was always slow and silence can be deafening it takes time to get every thing in motion we need to get a few more signatures on the petition a few more emails and a few more calls

steyrman

Hunter456 wrote: »

Asked Liam Nolan a simple question the other night on Facebook and still waiting on a reply i asked how will the money generated from the HCAP be spent my suggestions were employ and train rangers actually put it back into the system where its needed not on silly seminars and bull**** outings, they are just trying to push out the ordinary lad from deer stalking and keep it for them selves.

Hi as far as know npws is nothing to do with the h-cap there fore any revenue made would not go back into npws it’s a separate program but the do recognise it . Now coillte demand it as part of hunting on state forestery surly the are the ones should be claiming some sort of payment from the h-cap fees as it’s there ground

If this h-cap goes ahead for everyone that holds a hunting licence will all the landowners have a right to claim some of the funds generated by the h-hap because it’s there private property

How will the outfitters get around this with tourists shooters if there going to shoot coillte leases and private ground the will not have a h-cap cert or pass the firearms test it would take a few weeks to get them all through it never mind the local lads but being Ireland the will more than likely be exempted from it I would like to see how the can be and we are not again following the guide lines every tourist shooter that hunts deer would not be applying till May or June the same as us there for the should not qualify to hunt on state or private lands here in Ireland from the 1 January 2018

Hunter456

steyrman wrote: »

Hi as far as know npws is nothing to do with the h-cap there fore any revenue made would not go back into npws it’s a separate program but the do recognise it . Now coillte demand it as part of hunting on state forestery surly the are the ones should be claiming some sort of payment from the h-cap fees as it’s there ground

If this h-cap goes ahead for everyone that holds a hunting licence will all the landowners have a right to claim some of the funds generated by the h-hap because it’s there private property

How will the outfitters get around this with tourists shooters if there going to shoot coillte leases and private ground the will not have a h-cap cert or pass the firearms test it would take a few weeks to get them all through it never mind the local lads but being Ireland the will more than likely be exempted from it I would like to see how the can be and we are not again following the guide lines every tourist shooter that hunts deer would not be applying till May or June the same as us there for the should not qualify to hunt on state or private lands here in Ireland from the 1 January 2018

absolutely agree but we all know where the money generated will go into the pockets of the greedy ****ers running these organizations

dto001

If this comes in large groups should get together and up the bids on every Coillte deer let in the country and make these boys regret everything they are trying to do!!! Would serve them right

ezra_

If it comes in, the damage is done and it will be that much harder to get it undone.

.243

http://countrysportsireland.org/phone/training.html

Could this be the hcap's competition??

Grizzly 45

Why not ring or email them and ask if they are considering this move? It would be a good counter shot across HCAPs bows if they are?It's obviously recognised in NI/UK so it is a valid course.
So long as it is a once of course and below the HCAP price.

Later.
On second thoughts probably not... 295 STG for a 3-day course that looks like HCAP cogged a lot of stuff of.
We need to find out what was Coilte/NPWS/D AHCGI 's original course requirements, and build a course around those at less of a price.

Kat1170

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

We need to find out what was Coilte/NPWS/D AHCGI 's original course requirements, .

No requirements whatsoever. It is nothing but a box ticking exercise for Coilte's insurers. That was told to us by the Coilte official when I had to do my HCAP.

grassroot1

Heard nothing from the NARGC, I am going to contact the county secretary and put a flee in his ear. The largest shooting organisation and all that.

Grizzly 45

Kat1170 wrote: »

No requirements whatsoever. It is nothing but a box ticking exercise for Coilte's insurers. That was told to us by the Coilte official when I had to do my HCAP.

Amazing, but not surprising...So there is no minimum requirements or standards set by the Dept/Coilte/NPWS back then in 2003?? So the only reason then HCAP is trying this on is simply because "we were here first"!?
So IOW if we were to run the US NRA hunter safety course, with a bit of a shoot at the end and watch how to gut a deer, and charge all of 50 quid, it would be as valid then as HCAP if the dept accepts it?...Interesting!

garrettod

grassroot1 wrote: »

Heard nothing from the NARGC, I am going to contact the county secretary and put a flee in his ear. The largest shooting organisation and all that.

Like your style....

Post contact details and ask others to follow your lead, is my suggestion

wirehairmax

garrettod wrote: »

Like your style....

Post contact details and ask others to follow your lead, is my suggestion

Was speaking to a member of the executive at the weekend, The nargc are working on something for their members. The deer alliance won't have it all their own way.

ayagerard

i was asking a farmer who i have a very nice permission from on Monday, if he had heard any thing about this mandatory certification,his answer was no nothing heard nothing but i will look into it, got a phone call from same man last night, well **** them anyway this is relentless or have them ******* any other thing to bother them ,hes getting on to the ifa and his local polly to have a crack at them , he could see the light when there would be less hunters shooting and went as far as he would pay for me to do this hcap which i gracefully declined on the point of principle, the ifa has a lot of power and can not be left sitting on the hedge with this one ask the farmers to get on to them then they will take notice.

ezra_

wirehairmax wrote: »

Was speaking to a member of the executive at the weekend, The nargc are working on something for their members. The deer alliance won't have it all their own way.

So the NARGC knew (and accept) that compulsory training was taking place?

Grizzly 45

Uh Huh...And how much was that NARGC game handling course that time? The war of the profits is going to start soon.:rolleyes:

wirehairmax

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Uh Huh...And how much was that NARGC game handling course that time? The war of the profits is going to start soon.:rolleyes:

The game handling course should never have been that price and the nargc have significantly reduced the costs since taking it off the people who had control of it at the beginning. I was told last week that if the nargc do run a course it will be priced economically and with the members needs in mind

wirehairmax

ezra_ wrote: »

So the NARGC knew (and accept) that compulsory training was taking place?

They know now, it is being driven by the deer associations and the npws. They are looking at other countries who have compulsory hunter training and using that line to get it introduced here.

ezra_

wirehairmax wrote: »

They know now, it is being driven by the deer associations and the npws. They are looking at other countries who have compulsory hunter training and using that line to get it introduced here.

But there has been no formal announcement of this (apart from the Deer Alliance), where are the criteria for this course? How can they compare to other countries without knowing the minimum requirements here? Do they have private correspondence with the Minister / Department?

On a more fundamental note - does their silence on this constitute acceptance of the need for the course?

do they then support other such courses being introduced for foreshore wildfowling? Perhaps they agree that such courses are needed for bunny and fox bashing?

Walter Mittys Brother

Lads smell the ****e ffs.

All these organisations are looking for a slice of the pie. It's deer shooting now. Next it'll be game shooters then vermin shooters and target shooters.

EVERY gunowner will be hit for at least one course and let's be honest it'll probably be like Safepass refresher course every few years.

NICE LITTLE EARNER for them !!!!!!!!!!