Compulsory HCAP - Cancelled

270WIN

cavan shooter wrote: »

Am I the only one annoyed at the commercialisation of our sport.

Your not! It seems to me that the few self professed "deer experts" at the top tables in the deer societies here are trying their damnest to get deer stalking here to a similar set up that they have in the UK...where the rich buy all the good stalking and the rest can only dream about it.

Walter Mittys Brother

cavan shooter wrote: »

Am I the only one annoyed at the commercialisation of our sport.

The anger didn't come across in my post so

I am angry, not annoyed ! Anyone talking to DOJ to do with our sport has a self serving monetary agenda as far as I can see !

ayagerard

cavan shooter wrote: »

Am I the only one annoyed at the commercialisation of our sport.

no my friend you are not ,no one ever taught it would happen ,it wont affect us ,they cant do that , that will never happen , the half way house devils advocate is us with granddads licences wont say nothing we ill make no noise in case they go back and make us do our training , as a shooting group we are too fragmented and like farmers rarely stand up and say no but maybe now like the night time shooting ban if we all come together something can be done about this , you may think that the lads that have the hcap done wont care about us on private land but that will be their peril as they will be next on the list and will have no other choice but pay more for their ground as these boys turn this into an industry with all the farmers being promised lots of money and us with no ground and no licences , no headaches for the department the npws wont have to hire rangers , the guards will be happy too ,what do you need that rifle for, well mabe you could leave it at the range when you are finished in feature ?????? it is a money racket but but for a chosen few that wants us all to pay for it , rant over i m" mad too

does any one have a copy off the annual mag that was given out by the nargc back in the day about 5 -6 years ago , i am told of a pridiction of where shooting would be in 5-10 years time , based on the German model and with the department financing private enterprise in wicklow the next thing we will hear is this is the way forward with deer management in ireland then it is all over

Hunter456

has anyone confronted these and got answers for their actions.

Cass

I cannot believe that the falsehood of a mandatory course is still doing the rounds.

Only yesterday a group shared the link for the hcap courses and range tests for this year with the notification of the course being mandatory. The article they linked to was from November last year, but it was posted yesterday giving people the impression it's mandatory and still a requirement.

For the lvoe of God people, spread the word this is wrong.

Grizzly 45

Done on fB..please feel free to comment more on FB Firearms United Irl?

solarwinds

Cass wrote: »

I cannot believe that the falsehood of a mandatory course is still doing the rounds.

Only yesterday a group shared the link for the hcap courses and range tests for this year with the notification of the course being mandatory. The article they linked to was from November last year, but it was posted yesterday giving people the impression it's mandatory and still a requirement.

For the lvoe of God people, spread the word this is wrong.

They are communicating this tripe through a social media platform i imagine so as to drum up business. Can we not post on the same platform to counter their alternative truths and inform people reading.
Sorry if this appears daft i am not the most up to speed on social media or its use.

ayagerard

Cass wrote: »

I cannot believe that the falsehood of a mandatory course is still doing the rounds.

Only yesterday a group shared the link for the hcap courses and range tests for this year with the notification of the course being mandatory. The article they linked to was from November last year, but it was posted yesterday giving people the impression it's mandatory and still a requirement.

For the love of God people, spread the word this is wrong.

Vegeta
Moderator


Vegeta's


Quote:
Originally Posted by Grizzly 45 View Post
Truly, our worst enemies are in our own ranks here.
Google Regulatory Capture. What is going on is so transparent it's embarrassing. Every time one of these restrictions is suggested I am going to e-mail the responsible government body and inform them that placing regulations on citizens for the benefit of those lobbying for these regulations could be extremely damaging to a government if we shout loud enough.

white collar crime ROBBERY OF A DIFFERENT KIND ?????????
surely there is some umbersman that this can be reported to like the mislabeling of food unfortunately the fraud squad are too busy keeping the peace in Dublin to be interested in this people have the right to know what is mandatory in fact they should be obliged to find out , and it should be a criminal offence to publish or distribute misleading information, fraud for their betterment ,vultures feeding on uncertainty created by the department in charge , whom i am still waiting for a reply to an email sent in early February time to have these answered by now or highlighted in the house and published in the nat papers photo shoots following leo around wont fix this
__________________

gunny123

Repeat the lie often enough, it becomes the truth.

solarwinds

Insider trading, white collar crime, business influencing government decision for a whole country for the benefit of themselves.
I wonder was House of Cards actually based on the Irish political scene.

ayagerard

solarwinds wrote: »

Insider trading, white collar crime, business influencing government decision for a whole country for the benefit of themselves.
I wonder was House of Cards actually based on the Irish political scene.

would the competition authority have a look ,
they stuck their ore with aerlingus but had their sunglasses on when it came to larry, not exactly on the middle of the ditch ,

i dont think this is the first attempt at skinning this cat by these people
a few of these boys have been around the block before , but maybe not in the republic

Grizzly 45

About three weeks ago[Apr 20th] this post shows up on FB WADI page..There seems to be a hassle in their castle. Their FB page is now WDI instead of WADI. Anyone know anything about this??

Wild Deer Ireland
April 20 at 10:38pm ·
Open letter to the Chairman of the Wild Deer Association of Ireland. We understand this letter was drafted by 30 members of the Association and Executive and sent to its Chairman Tom O'Donnell on April 11th to highlight several serious concerns including the admission of three individuals to the Association as members or Officers who are either convicted or plead guilty or found guilty of offences against our wildlife.

The Association has become one of the lead organisations in Ireland highlighting wildlife crime and working closely with state agencies such as NPWS, An Garda Siochana.

We understand there has been no response from the Chairman to the members letter and he withdrew from a meeting scheduled to discuss the issues raised.

A motion has been tabled at an EGM taking place tomorrow (April 21st) asking members to amend the Association's constitution, that any person with a conviction, found guilty or has the Probation Act applied for offences against wildlife, will be dis-entitled from becoming a member of the Association.

We would urge members and supporters to ensure this motion is passed to ensure the Association maintains its good name and can continue to carry out its work - in particular to those who have been canvassed by Associates of those with convictions to disrupt the Association, the EGM or the personal attacks on its officers under false pretenses.

https://www.facebook.com/125121684177148/photos/a.156296694392980.29211.125121684177148/1771677836188183/?type=3&theater[/URL]

cavan shooter

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

About three weeks ago[Apr 20th] this post shows up on FB WADI page..There seems to be a hassle in their castle. Their FB page is now WDI instead of WADI. Anyone know anything about this??

Wild Deer Ireland
April 20 at 10:38pm ·
Open letter to the Chairman of the Wild Deer Association of Ireland. We understand this letter was drafted by 30 members of the Association and Executive and sent to its Chairman Tom O'Donnell on April 11th to highlight several serious concerns including the admission of three individuals to the Association as members or Officers who are either convicted or plead guilty or found guilty of offences against our wildlife.

The Association has become one of the lead organisations in Ireland highlighting wildlife crime and working closely with state agencies such as NPWS, An Garda Siochana.

We understand there has been no response from the Chairman to the members letter and he withdrew from a meeting scheduled to discuss the issues raised.

A motion has been tabled at an EGM taking place tomorrow (April 21st) asking members to amend the Association's constitution, that any person with a conviction, found guilty or has the Probation Act applied for offences against wildlife, will be dis-entitled from becoming a member of the Association.

We would urge members and supporters to ensure this motion is passed to ensure the Association maintains its good name and can continue to carry out its work - in particular to those who have been canvassed by Associates of those with convictions to disrupt the Association, the EGM or the personal attacks on its officers under false pretenses.

https://www.facebook.com/125121684177148/photos/a.156296694392980.29211.125121684177148/1771677836188183/?type=3&theater[/URL]

There is a putsch on a certain crowd with leanings towards a certain organisation trying to take over

Walter Mittys Brother

cavan shooter wrote: »

There is a putsch on a certain crowd with leanings towards a certain organisation trying to take over

Par for the course so

Hollowpoint123

Why is doing a course such a bad thing? I didn't find the hcap overly challenging at all but it was somewhat informative! Giving out about it we sound like the people who complain about the Driving license theory test, yet there are questions those exact same people could not answer. It's a good day out, you meet new people, shoot some lead and learn a little but a bit pricey I'll agree! Not everyone is as clever as you and sometimes a course helps them and in effect all of us as there is less accidents and scandals for the anti's or government to report on.

Backbarrel

Hollowpoint123 wrote: »

Why is doing a course such a bad thing? I didn't find the hcap overly challenging at all but it was somewhat informative! Giving out about it we sound like the people who complain about the Driving license theory test, yet there are questions those exact same people could not answer. It's a good day out, you meet new people, shoot some lead and learn a little but a bit pricey I'll agree! Not everyone is as clever as you and sometimes a course helps them and in effect all of us as there is less accidents and scandals for the anti's or government to report on.

You miss the point. no offence.

It is about treating the course as a mandatory requirement in order to pursue your sport. That is the problem..it is not mandatory.

It is about commercialisation of our sport and bringing about a situation where heavy regulation is the norm..where we are willing to pay to be left alone.

Let's not show them any encouragement in their attempts to tie up this generation of shooters or the next.

ALL shooting associations can conduct training and improve the competence and safety of their members. They are great days out and can be done cost effectively.

Grizzly 45

Plus, this is what is called "mission creep".The HCAP was set up originally to be a CYA for Coilte on its insurance of public liability. Well and good, they can dictate the terms of what goes on in their forests and that's where it should end. However, as there are more stalkers outside Coillte forests than inside them. It suddenly dawned on WADI/WDI DAI HCAP etc that there is more money and politics to be made by dragging in all stalkers under their umbrella. Whether they want to or not.It is the UNDERHANDED methodology that has been used by an organisation that claims to represent "the majority" of deerstalkers in Ireland that has got right up everyone's nose who are not members, have no desire to be or ever want to set foot in overpriced, little shooting Coilte lets.

Yes, it is not taxing at all. But of what benefit is learning by rote a bunch of questions and answers,[some of them very wrong too], and shooting a stationary target at a fixed distance with a support and then paying a wad for the privilidge? Do you want to learn to stalk? Get out in the woods and fields, because even if you are stalking a lifetime you will still be learning.:)

Cass

Hollowpoint123 wrote: »

Why is doing a course such a bad thing?

It's not, IF its a voluntary choice and not a prerequisite to obtaining a firearms license and/or deer license.

I didn't find the hcap overly challenging at all

And doesn't that say something about the "standard" of it? I have been present for pretty much every range test over the last 9 years or so and i've seen people fail it, repeat, fail it, PAY, repeat, fail it, PAY, repeat, until they pass. One person took 7 attempts and walked out with their certificate.

but it was somewhat informative!

Nothing you couldn't learn by reading a book, so if they want people to read a book before getting a deer license fine, but they're not just asking for that.

Giving out about it we sound like the people who complain about the Driving license theory test, yet there are questions those exact same people could not answer.

I get where you're coming from, but throughout this we have said we're not against training or education, but not when it is forced upon us by a PRIVATE group that is not legally or officially recognised by the Minister or the Dept.

As Vegeta said Google the term Regulatory Capture. In short it means where a Government has failed in its duties, enacted laws based on the lobbying of a group/groups, and those groups profit out of the changes to the law.

There are a host of reason why this is wrong. not the training or the course, but the manner in which they tried to introduce it. Here are just a few:

1. The NPWS and Deer Alliance have no authority to introduce any mandatory courses.
2. There is no legislation in place to support this.
3. An SI (someone floated the idea) cannot supersede primary legislation, of which none exists (for this exact topic).
4. The HCAP was introduced for shooters on Coilte land. It is a CYA exercise.
5. The HCAP was written by deer stalkers so what are their qualifications? I don't mean 30, 40, 50 years shooting, i mean registered, verifiable, qualifications.
6. Coilte demand this cert, but what official recognition does it have (An Gardaí, DoJ, DoE, DoA.R.H.GA., etc)
7. Where does the money go? Even now, presently, who gets it and how is it spent?
8. Introducing proficiency as a prerequisite for a license is a dangerous precedence. How do you measure proficiency, what national standards are there, and who determines it's met (leads back to the qualifications of those deeming how proficient a person is).
9. It will not combat poaching.
10. Poaching is a criminal act, and those that do it are already breaking the law. How will further legislation stop those already intent on breaking the current laws?
11. More legislation is not needed, only enforcement of the current legislation which comes under the guise of more rangers and stronger punishment for those caught.
12. **This one is less factual and more emotive** I'ts my gun, licensed by An Gardaí who deem me competent, and private permissions given to me by land owners so the deer alliance have no say in what i do.
13. Under whose authority, and where, is this demand for mandatory courses coming from? The vested parties (NPWS, WDAI, Deer Alliance, etc) cannot make such demands legally and the Minister has distanced herself and her department from them. So who is making this mandatory?
14. If competence is required by law and those running the courses, currently, have no official accreditation, then what makes those with 10, 15, 20+ years experience, but no hcap, incompetent and in need of a hcap?
15. The data protection issues or lack thereof
16. The unregulated nature of the course and those running it. As its not recognized by any Dept and has been declared as "not administered by us" by the Dept of A.H.G.RA.
17. Either it's a monopoly which breaks Irish and EU law or its open for all in which case other groups can run their own version.
18. There was no tender process. With some €600,000 up for grabs over the next 5 years the deer alliance cannot call itself the "only game in town" and expect to have unfettered control over the course
19. If a tender process is not necessary then once again it opens it up to others to run their own course. (This would seem likely as the deer alliance tried to insinuate that anyone trying to run an opposing course is in it only for the money. See point 10 of their rebuttal).
20. How does the actual course measure up in terms of effectiveness and against other such courses that are recognized internationally (DSC2, etc).
21. If "or equivalent" from Coilte's handbook and "Show competence" in the 1976 Act are to be believed then a similar certification from England, Scotland, Germany, France, etc, etc. must be recognized.
22. How are the private land owners and those that shoot on it affected by a hcap course? The land owners do not benefit from whether a hunter has a hcap or not and if some loose out on shooting due to not having a hcap the land owner will look elsewhere to rid their land of what most view as vermin.

It's a good day out, you meet new people, shoot some lead and learn a little but a bit pricey I'll agree!

Ever ask yourself where that money goes?

A single hcap test of say 100 lads brings in €15,000. Each Deer alliance person gets a fee for their day. The range gets a fee for the test, and the location of the MCQ gets a fee. The rest goes to administration of the website, internet service provider costs, and "indirect costs". So break it down. Range costs about €1,500 (100 x €15 per head). Each deer alliance man getting say €300 for their day is 5 x €300 so another €1,500. The hotel/location for the MCQ is most likely about €300 (i've hired function rooms and they are about this). Website domain names, and admin hosting costs are something i'm not sure on but can we agree on €50 per month. Allowing for a couple of tests er year it's hard to figure the cost per test but we'll half the yearly cost and say €300 for 6 months. So we're up to €3,600. Soem things do't make sense. ISP (internet srvice provider). This is the monthly internet fee. Usually between €15 to €50 per month. I'd assume it's done by the website management crowd so would be part of the fee above? Also travel costs. If each man is paid for his day does that not include travel costs too? Say they are separate costs. Allow another €600 for both. That makes €4,200. The hcap manual costs €35 so that more than covers printing fees so that doesn't count. So rounding up for any unknown or shortfall i expenses and we can call it €5,000 in expenses per test. So they take in €15,000 and spend €5,000. Where is the other €10,000 gone?

Also the price has risen to €165 per person, and previously there were three (3 range tests per year with an average of 120+ lads bringing in €54,000 a year, recently it's been two (2) tests per year with an average or 100 lads bringing in €30,000 per year. Now they say there'll be six (6) range tests this year alone. Give an average of 80 lads per test and you're talking about €80,000 per year, minimum.

All compulsory and all going to a private, non regulated, unrecognised (officially/legally) group of people. Just so i can continue to shoot on PRIVATE lands, that i've shot on for the last 20+ years?

Not everyone is as clever as you

I doubt anyone, anyone sane that is, is claiming to know it all or saying that a course of any kind wouldn't help them.

and sometimes a course helps them and in effect all of us as there is less accidents and scandals for the anti's or government to report on.

As opposed to what accidents and scandals?

Seriously, name one scandal or hunting related accident in the last 5, 10, 20 years that caused the Government to be concerned? We are one of, if not the, safest sports in the country and its all SELF POLICED. The shooting community can pride itself on being the oldest official sport in the country, even considering the GAA, and still having the safest record.

We have already heard reports of fox shooting courses, and it won't be long until there are courses for Duck, pheasant, rabbits, etc. Then it won't be long until someone from a vested interest group starts lobbying the Minister asking for their course to be made mandatory and before you know it we have to do course after course and then "refresher" coruses to keep our licenses and guns.

If someone wants to take a course then have at it, but it should be voluntary not mandatory and should not be a prerequisite for any firearms license.

solarwinds

At the end of the day they are trying to sell a product that is not required by the vast majority of shooters. They are selling / pushing it hard and all based on false advertising.
If a person sells you something you do not need nor want but are being conned into believing you need it because it is now mandatory and possibly a legal requirement to have before you can continue with your daily business is this not fraudulent and is that person not leaving themselves open to prosecution.

gunny123

Well said grizzly. Too many money grubbing gangsters appearing on the shooting scene in the past few years. I would give up my licences before handing them a shilling.

Another thing is newcomers to shooting do not really know whats going on, and are being flannelled by these villians, that (1) these poxy courses are mandatory and (2) if they do the course they are somehow some qualified and expert (a bit like a learner driver getting their full licence), perhaps leading to over confidence and accidents ?