All quiet on the Korean peninsula, but is Spain about to erupt?

lawred2

HalloweenJack wrote: »

The Spanish government have been incredibly stupid. Their crackdown on what is essentially a symbolic vote is going to do way more harm than letting them have the vote would have. I've heard Catalans being mocked for complaining of "Madrid oppression" as one of the arguments for their desire for independence but the events in the buildup to the vote can hardly be described in any other way. I can understand why the Spanish government are panicking, as if Catalunya can pull it off than the Basques will probably head down a similar road and, economically, Catalunya is a big contributor to the Spanish coffers, as well as the Basque Country. Because of the restrictions of the Spanish constitution, technically what Catalunya doing is illegal and the Spanish government is reacting as it should when the constitution is ignored. However, it just doesn't feel right at all and it's totally unnecessary, imo.

It's all quite depressing, tbh. I'm sick to death of it. Hearing people talk about it here has left me quite disappointed. A lot of Spaniards I know go on about how "Catalans are Spaniards", despite not living there and getting what they know of Catalunya from the media, and how they're just greedy, etc. I then counter that some people viewed the Irish similarly, that we were British after all and that we shouldn't have left the UK and I'm told "Oh but that's different". They take the thing as an attack on being Spanish when it's really just the right to decide for themselves. Being Irish and given our history, I fully support that ideal and I'm just worn down by the view of a lot of Spaniards I've spoken to about the matter.

Spanish lad I work echoed similar sentiments.. pretty much started that it was all about money and that there is really no such thing as being Catalan..

737max

Doltanian wrote: »

If anyone here knows my sentiments I am opposed to the leftwing but I am also opposed to this thuggery from the Spanish Nationalists. I beleive Catalonia has the right to self-determination without this invasion of Spanish forces creating havoc in their country. The Catalans must be allowed to vote and if they are denied this then they are perfectly entitled in my view to fight back, the only terrorists I see hear are wearing black and were sent by the Spanish King to enforce Madrid rule over Barcelona.

People should remember that lots of Irish volunteers went to Spain and died to prevent Spain falling to Franco, the Blue shirts went also to support Franco but most didn't even see action due to their woeful lack of training.

I'm anti-communist but this isn't a left-right debate this is about Spanish imperialism over the people of Catalonia.

allowing a peace movement descend in to violence in Ireland brought over three thousand deaths and decades of misery for everyone which nobody wanted yet you would want to incite similar in another country.
You Sir are a grade A Moron.

Ulysses Gaze

Doltanian wrote: »

If anyone here knows my sentiments I am opposed to the leftwing but I am also opposed to this thuggery from the Spanish Nationalists. I beleive Catalonia has the right to self-determination without this invasion of Spanish forces creating havoc in their country. The Catalans must be allowed to vote and if they are denied this then they are perfectly entitled in my view to fight back, the only terrorists I see hear are wearing black and were sent by the Spanish King to enforce Madrid rule over Barcelona.

People should remember that lots of Irish volunteers went to Spain and died to prevent Spain falling to Franco, the Blue shirts went also to support Franco but most didn't even see action due to their woeful lack of training.

I'm anti-communist but this isn't a left-right debate this is about Spanish imperialism over the people of Catalonia.

And how did that work out?

Likewise, the Catalans will not win this war.

tomwaterford

BBDBB wrote: »

Injured total rises to over 700


Article 7 of the European Union Treaty

"Suspension of any Member State that uses military force on its own population"

Fairly sure that won't happen

Cant see for life of me,what is Madrids endgame here....keep police there indefinitely??

Obviously people looking for Catalans independence will push to rehold this vote(if anyway politically astute theyd push for outside observers)??

And force either Madrid to back down or cause police to lose all respect/cooperation of local population?

suicide_circus

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

And how did that work out?

Likewise, the Catalans will not win this war.

Maybe not but they should be able to try without being assaulted

Buford T. Justice XIX

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

And how did that work out?

Likewise, the Catalans will not win this war.

I don't think they can lose.

Al the Spanish government has done today is turn international sentiment and any Catalans on the fence about the referendum firmly in favour of independence, imo. Startling echos of the crackdown post 1916 where the vast majority went from not really caring to firmly in favour.

lawred2

Some regard these authorities have for their own Spanish citizens. Unreal stuff.

lawred2

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

Doltanian wrote: »

If anyone here knows my sentiments I am opposed to the leftwing but I am also opposed to this thuggery from the Spanish Nationalists. I beleive Catalonia has the right to self-determination without this invasion of Spanish forces creating havoc in their country. The Catalans must be allowed to vote and if they are denied this then they are perfectly entitled in my view to fight back, the only terrorists I see hear are wearing black and were sent by the Spanish King to enforce Madrid rule over Barcelona.

People should remember that lots of Irish volunteers went to Spain and died to prevent Spain falling to Franco, the Blue shirts went also to support Franco but most didn't even see action due to their woeful lack of training.

I'm anti-communist but this isn't a left-right debate this is about Spanish imperialism over the people of Catalonia.

And how did that work out?

Likewise, the Catalans will not win this war.

Which war?

timthumbni

Doltanian wrote: »

The Catalans should arm themselves and start killing the Spanish Police, send them back to Madrid in bodybags. They tried to have a democratic referendum and these thugs were sent in from Madrid to crack innocent peoples skulls.

These are no different to the black and tans being sent into Ireland, the Catalans must fight back and make a Universal Declaration of Independence from Spain. Had the Spanish done nothing and kept their army of thugs at home and let the referendum pass off peacefully it would probably have been rejected. Instead the people will rise against Spain and I for one support them. ETA and the Catalans should immediately take the fight to the Spanish because the Spaniards have shown they are unwilling to accept peaceful democracy just like the British tried in Ireland.

Aye. You’re a big hard man. Or at least a hard man on the keyboard...

Doltanian

737max wrote: »

allowing a peace movement descend in to violence in Ireland brought over three thousand deaths and decades of misery for everyone which nobody wanted yet you would want to incite similar in another country.
You Sir are a grade A Moron.

The situation in Northern Ireland was you had one population subjugated along ethnic and religious lines, what should they have done? Just put up with it and shut-up? I don't condone terrorism but there is terrorism and there is fighting for justice and liberty. Going by your logic perhaps the allies should have just allowed Hitler to steamroll Europe to prevent losses. Freedom isn't free and we would all be British Citizens today had our own forefathers not stood and fought the good fight. This is Catalonians moment. They acted peacefully and the Spanish forces are the aggressors here not the Catalans. Should it erupt into fully blown Civil conflict then the Catalans will get plenty help from around Europe that is for certain.

BBDBB

AllGunsBlazing wrote: »

Key word there is military. As long as they're in police unifrom the state can batter the ****e out of ye.

I'm sure you are right

However

Tomayto/ tomato

Taking a look at the video of uniformed officers, uniforms, consisting of helmet with visor, body armour, shin and knee pads, boots and armed with batons and weapons firing rubber bullets.

I'd simply ask the question how different would it have to be to be considered "military"

Secondly, the phrase is "the use of military force", NOT "the use of force by the military"

timthumbni

Doltanian wrote: »

The situation in Northern Ireland was you had one population subjugated along ethnic and religious lines, what should they have done? Just put up with it and shut-up? I don't condone terrorism but there is terrorism and there is fighting for justice and liberty. Going by your logic perhaps the allies should have just allowed Hitler to steamroll Europe to prevent losses. Freedom isn't free and we would all be British Citizens today had our own forefathers not stood and fought the good fight. This is Catalonians moment. They acted peacefully and the Spanish forces are the aggressors here not the Catalans. Should it erupt into fully blown Civil conflict then the Catalans will get plenty help from around Europe that is for certain.

Will you be flying over to fight yourself ya big keyboard warrior?

737max

Doltanian wrote: »

The situation in Northern Ireland was you had one population subjugated along ethnic and religious lines, what should they have done? Just put up with it and shut-up? I don't condone terrorism but there is terrorism and there is fighting for justice and liberty. Going by your logic perhaps the allies should have just allowed Hitler to steamroll Europe to prevent losses. Freedom isn't free and we would all be British Citizens today had our own forefathers not stood and fought the good fight. This is Catalonians moment. They acted peacefully and the Spanish forces are the aggressors here not the Catalans. Should it erupt into fully blown Civil conflict then the Catalans will get plenty help from around Europe that is for certain.

It is like you are salivating at the prospect of violence. That is the bloodlust of a keyboard warrior.
One or Two of those injured today have been seriously hurt and my thoughts are with them and their families.

vicwatson

Jaysus it didn't take long for the derailment and in fighting. I'm out

BBDBB

tomwaterford wrote: »

Cant see for life of me,what is Madrids endgame here....keep police there indefinitely??

Obviously people looking for Catalans independence will push to rehold this vote(if anyway politically astute theyd push for outside observers)??

And force either Madrid to back down or cause police to lose all respect/cooperation of local population?

I think Madrids stance has been wrong from the beginning

This referendum was better to be considered invalid rather than illegal
They could have brushed it under the carpet, delayed things and found half a dozen ways to kick it into the long grass. By declaring it illegal they have drawn a red line and then put themselves in the position of having to enforce it. By doing so, so brutally, they will have drawn more attention, more support and lost much sympathy. Stupid tactics followed through stupidly

OldMrBrennan83

This post has been deleted.

A Dub in Glasgo

https://twitter.com/galizarebelde/status/914527182332022784

Skylinehead

Mod: Lads, calm down. Try not to advocate violence.

ricero

Dont agree with the police brutality but i do agree with the spanish government stopping this illegal vote.

Madness the catalonians think they are above the law

timthumbni

Patww79 wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Oh so I’m massively sectarian am I? In what way exactly patty? The poster seems to be encouraging the death of police officers. But of course you don’t mention that. I personally have no interest on the matter of Catalan independence. I do think it’s a bit ****ty to slabbering about killing cops though. You seem to not mind. Pretty telling about yourself chum...

A Dub in Glasgo

Skylinehead wrote: »

Mod: Lads, calm down. Try not to advocate violence.

Quite right, let the Spanish Government and Police do it

tomwaterford

BBDBB wrote: »

I think Madrids stance has been wrong from the beginning

This referendum was better to be considered invalid rather than illegal
They could have brushed it under the carpet, delayed things and found half a dozen ways to kick it into the long grass. By declaring it illegal they have drawn a red line and then put themselves in the position of having to enforce it. By doing so, so brutally, they will have drawn more attention, more support and lost much sympathy. Stupid tactics followed through stupidly

They could have highly published it to be invalid,massive ads in papers etc and let them vote and fair enough if it come in over whelmingly in favour and high turnout have a proper vote

By sending in the police to batter the crap outta people,they are kind of after losing any high ground/stand point and i can't see how politicaly they can't award a binding referendum now,

Whatll they do,if the cathalans push to rehold the vote?,send more police....this could get ugly/leave cathalan players who play for Spain In a horrid position next weekend.

A Dub in Glasgo

ricero wrote: »

Dont agree with the police brutality but i do agree with the spanish government stopping this illegal vote.

Madness the catalonians think they are above the law

Place an X here on this piece of paper and face a crack in the face for doing so :rolleyes:

Doltanian

ricero wrote: »

Dont agree with the police brutality but i do agree with the spanish government stopping this illegal vote.

Madness the catalonians think they are above the law

The right to self determination is actually quiet universally recognised in several International Laws, the Spanish and their constitution are the ones denying the Catalans their right to self-determine.

Richard Hillman

There won't be terror attacks or war. Unlike the 70s and 80s there are no dictatorships around anymore that could just send a consignment of weapons to Europe. There is nobody in North Africa to deal with anymore apart from ISIS.

Even Mr Putin wouldn't fancy people getting notions of independence.

The only party to deal with could be the Saudi's, who are longing for the destruction of Europe. They could see strife in Spain as a gateway or a distraction for their ISIS groups.

timthumbni

Patww79 wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Patty, I rarely post on here at all so I must really be playing on your mind for you to come out with a post like that in response to me highlighting some keyboard hardman calling for the deaths of policemen in Spain. Maybe you agree with him. Who knows...

You say you post to highlight that I am a massive bore... ha ha ... pull the other one patty... we will agree to disagree I suppose.

Lackey

I really don't think the Spanish Government realise just how much of an own goal they've just scored....and just how arrogant they come across.

OldMrBrennan83

This post has been deleted.

OldMrBrennan83

This post has been deleted.

P_1

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41463719

Can't see Madrid's reaction to this being any good.