All quiet on the Korean peninsula, but is Spain about to erupt?

TheQuietFella

bear1 wrote: »

Doesn't it also form in a sense part of Andorra?

That's really a principality that borders Catalonia but what allegiances it has I don't know!

https://www.google.ie/maps/place/Catalonia,+Spain/@41.6704353,-0.4972668,7z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m5!3m4!1s0x12a45bdc8530f5f3:0x100fae021a3c850!8m2!3d41.5911589!4d1.5208624

HalloweenJack

All My Stars Aligned wrote: »

bear1 wrote: »

From what I know there were 2 separate regions which United when the king and queen of each region married.
Franco suppressed any sort of independence question which then started again once he was gone and here we are today.
This is the gist of it.

Fron wiki that seems to have been in 1491!

Is there any modern claim I wonder?

So 516 years ago. In Ireland we were occupied for a longer time, 752 years (1169-1921).

BBDBB

#takingakneeforcork

TheQuietFella

HalloweenJack wrote: »

So 516 years ago. In Ireland we were occupied for a longer time, 752 years (1169-1921).

What do you mean 'were'? Still!!!

martingriff

Regardless if this was illegal or not this is a monumental F$%l UP by the Spanish goverment. They have out Trumped Trump.

All My Stars Aligned

HalloweenJack wrote: »

So 516 years ago. In Ireland we were occupied for a longer time, 752 years (1169-1921).

On what little I've managed to find on the history of Spain/Catalonia the comparison does not seem valid in that the partition of north/south was created in a very different way and under very different circumstances.

That said, my knowledge on the subject of regional independence in Spain is very sparse so am open to correction, without falling into discussion on the Irish partition.

timthumbni

TheQuietFella wrote: »

What do you mean 'were'? Still!!!

You certainly won’t be getting me out quick quiet fella...

Manic Moran

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

Jeez, the Spanish Government and Police have obviously never heard of the phrase "Winning of hearts and minds".

I believe it was Roosevelt who said that when you grab them by the balls, their hearts and minds will follow.

This all looks bad, but I am unconvinced it will not work in the long run. Independence movements can and do get squashed if one looks at history.

Elmer Blooker

All My Stars Aligned wrote: »

I still cannot find the basis upon which the claim for independence is based, can anyone here explain or point me in the direction of somewhere I can read up on it.

There's "history" there going back even before the 1936-39 Civil War and the Franco dictatorship.
Catalonia was always industrialised and a hotbed of socialism, anarchists and anti-church in a country that was predominantly agrarian, ruled by the church and very conservative.
A good example here of how history repeats.

faceman

While the violent scenes are deplorable, an earlier poster who noted how the heavy hand is the Spanish government’s way of sending a message is unfortunately correct.

It’s worth noting too that the independent movement is also not recognised by the EU who recognises Catalonia as part of Spain.

A Little Pony

It's EU driven, Catalonia leaving is another piece of the jigsaw missing.

The_Valeyard

Sky News seems to be really hitting the Spanish govt spokespeople quite hard.

Son Of A Vidic

faceman wrote: »

The Spanish government should have allowed a peaceful vote. Remaining in Spain would have won and normal service resume. However these militant tactics by the government will only serve to push more people toward independence.

From the brutal suppression of anti-austerity protests, through to the savage treatment inflicted on Spanish families as the police helped enforce evictions across Spain. The fascist tendencies of the Spanish police is never far from the surface. Franco maybe gone, but his disturbing influence can still be seen in the behaviour of these stormtroppers. Hopefully the Catalan people will respond accordingly and give them a political two fingered salute.

branie2

awful

SafeSurfer

The consequences of the independence referendum in Catalonia will pale in significance compared to those of the independence referendum in Kurdistan. It is a true tinderbox.

Collie D

There is something deeply disturbing about a police force assaulting people trying to vote. The Spanish government need to be condemned for this.

BBDBB

Son Of A Vidic wrote: »

From the brutal suppression of anti-austerity protests, through to the savage treatment inflicted on Spanish families as the police helped enforce evictions across Spain. The fascist tendencies of the Spanish police is never far from the surface. Franco maybe gone, but his disturbing influence can still be seen in the behaviour of these stormtroppers. Hopefully the Catalan people will respond accordingly and give them a political two fingered salute.

Based upon the verbal response and the physical interruption of the vote, the change of rules to the voting process and non validated ballot papers, any Declaration of Independence or proclamation of a desire to becom independent will be challenged as illegal, non representative and not enforceable

branie2

Are we seeing a new civil war in Spain in the future?

AlekSmart

The_Valeyard wrote: »

Sky News seems to be really hitting the Spanish govt spokespeople quite hard.

The ability of the New World Media to home in on events so rapidly is the defining difference between our generation and those gone before.

No longer will those remote from the action have to wait for an Ernest Hemmingway article,or a Charlie Haughey still photo,to enable them to understand better the nature of the conflict.

What Sky News will most likely hold back from,is covering the fact that there are over 2,000 polling stations of which 300+ have been targeted by Police.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2017/oct/01/catalan-independence-referendum-spain-catalonia-vote-live

Local and national authorities say 336 voting centres, of more than 2,000, across the region have been closed by police.

Voting has been marred by a brutal police crackdown. Videos show police hitting people in the crowd with batons while voters hold up their hands, police dragging voters from polling stations by their hair, and Spanish police attacking Catalan firefighters.

The police action has been mostly confined to Barcelona, the Catalonian capital. There has been no police presence in the majority of voting stations throughout the region.

Voting ends at 20.00 so we should be better informed tomorrow ?

branie2

branie2 wrote: »

Are we seeing a new civil war in Spain in the future?

Hardly.

Snake Plisken

Screw the Catalans they are the same crowd who were protesting against tourists during the summer and they threat non-Catalans living in Catalonia asn2nd class citizens! I am delighted the Spanish government clamped down hard on this illegal referendum!

faceman

branie2 wrote: »

Are we seeing a new civil war in Spain in the future?

Definitely not.

timthumbni

branie2 wrote: »

Are we seeing a new civil war in Spain in the future?

If it spawns a new pans labyrinth then I’m all for it. (not serious btw)

wes

The attacks on civilian's by the police is how you lose any territory forever. It won't work in Catalonia, just like this kind of repression hasn't worked elsewhere.

riffmongous

All My Stars Aligned wrote: »

On what little I've managed to find on the history of Spain/Catalonia the comparison does not seem valid in that the partition of north/south was created in a very different way and under very different circumstances.

That said, my knowledge on the subject of regional independence in Spain is very sparse so am open to correction, without falling into discussion on the Irish partition.

Here's some stuff to read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_the_Spanish_Succession#Spain_and_Portugal

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crown_of_Aragon

Grayson

https://twitter.com/GuyVerhofstadt/status/914524846670958600


That's actually a pretty balanced view.

seachto7

Snake Plisken wrote: »

Screw the Catalans they are the same crowd who were protesting against tourists during the summer and they threat non-Catalans living in Catalonia asn2nd class citizens! I am delighted the Spanish government clamped down hard on this illegal referendum!

Protesting against how tourism is regulated as opposed to tourists and they were correct to do so as they did in other parts of Spain. Air b&b a big problem too there.

A Dub in Glasgo

Snake Plisken wrote: »

Screw the Catalans they are the same crowd who were protesting against tourists during the summer and they threat non-Catalans living in Catalonia asn2nd class citizens! I am delighted the Spanish government clamped down hard on this illegal referendum!

Stop demonstrating your ignorance

A Dub in Glasgo

4068ac1elhodqr

All quiet from Tusk and Juncker. They'll need to condemn Spain's actions or loose Catalonia.