All quiet on the Korean peninsula, but is Spain about to erupt?

LordSutch

Unlike Scotland, Catalonia is not being allowed to vote on independence, and trouble is brewing on the streets ......

http://www.rte.ie/news/2017/1001/908814-catalonia/

What should Madrid do?

jamesbere

Police started firing stun grenades into crowd in Barcelona, could kick things off.

Edit: actually I think it was rubber bullets

KERSPLAT!

I read reports that police had closed approx half of the schools/designated voting stations. Need to read up on it more

The_Valeyard

If Madrid cracks down on the Separatists they become martyrs.


If Madrid does nothing the Separatists become emboldened.

donegaLroad

The vote is not legally recognized by Madrid, so it's not like the Scottish independence referendum.

munsterlegend

donegaLroad wrote: »

The vote is not legally recognized by Madrid, so it's not like the Scottish independence referendum.

The Catalan democratically elected regional government voted yes to a vote though on the matter. The likelihood is in a free vote that independence would not have got through but trying to stop it could be very counter productive. if people get badly injured or killed things could get very inflamed though there is no real history of violent resistance in the area unlike the Basque Country.

donegaLroad

munsterlegend wrote: »

The Catalan democratically elected regional government voted yes to a vote though on the matter. The likelihood isin a free vote that independence would not have got through but trying to stop it could be very counter productive. if people get badly injured or killed things could get very inflamed though there is no real history of violent resistance in the area unlike the Basque Country.

I just read this in the Indo

'The ballot will have no legal status as it has been blocked by Spain's Constitutional Court, and Madrid has the ultimate power under its 1978 charter to suspend the regional government's authority to rule if it declares independence'

The_Valeyard

Maybe an Irish Free State style solution is in order

munsterlegend

donegaLroad wrote: »

I just read this in the Indo

'The ballot will have no legal status as it has been blocked by Spain's Constitutional Court, and Madrid has the ultimate power under its 1978 charter to suspend the regional government's authority to rule if it declares independence'

If they decided to use that power, then I would imagine matters getting very militant in a very short space of time. The will of the people to a regional government would be overrided with i suspect troops on the ground.

Roger Hassenforder

Cork watching with interest...

#EndDublinRuleInCork

HalloweenJack

The Spanish government have been incredibly stupid. Their crackdown on what is essentially a symbolic vote is going to do way more harm than letting them have the vote would have. I've heard Catalans being mocked for complaining of "Madrid oppression" as one of the arguments for their desire for independence but the events in the buildup to the vote can hardly be described in any other way. I can understand why the Spanish government are panicking, as if Catalunya can pull it off than the Basques will probably head down a similar road and, economically, Catalunya is a big contributor to the Spanish coffers, as well as the Basque Country. Because of the restrictions of the Spanish constitution, technically what Catalunya doing is illegal and the Spanish government is reacting as it should when the constitution is ignored. However, it just doesn't feel right at all and it's totally unnecessary, imo.

It's all quite depressing, tbh. I'm sick to death of it. Hearing people talk about it here has left me quite disappointed. A lot of Spaniards I know go on about how "Catalans are Spaniards", despite not living there and getting what they know of Catalunya from the media, and how they're just greedy, etc. I then counter that some people viewed the Irish similarly, that we were British after all and that we shouldn't have left the UK and I'm told "Oh but that's different". They take the thing as an attack on being Spanish when it's really just the right to decide for themselves. Being Irish and given our history, I fully support that ideal and I'm just worn down by the view of a lot of Spaniards I've spoken to about the matter.

irishgeo

Our own independence vote was illegal too. Didn't realise that the catalan economy is bigger than Portugal one.

BillyBobBS

Lol'd at thread title.

The_Valeyard

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

Cork watching with interest...

#EndDublinRuleInCork

Lets build a wall. Make Ireland great again. Keep Cork out

Manuel must be turning in his grave.

HalloweenJack

He was from Barcelona but he spoke Spanish. It's hard to be sure how he would have voted.

The_Valeyard

HalloweenJack wrote: »

He was from Barcelona but he spoke Spanish. It's hard to be sure how he would have voted.

He always said Barcelona, never Spain, i think we know where his loyalties were :P

HalloweenJack

HalloweenJack wrote: »

He was from Barcelona but he spoke Spanish. It's hard to be sure how he would have voted.

I suspect that the scriptwriters didn't know that Catalonia was a distinct region with its own language & culture.

But, who knows... Just he would be upset about the unrest.

faceman

The only people who are determined to vote in this referendum and die hard folk who want independence. Folks anywhere else on the spectrum, including those against it, won't come out mostly through fear.

The Spanish government should have allowed a peaceful vote. Remaining in Spain would have won and normal service resume. However these militant tactics by the government will only serve to push more people toward independence.

ChikiChiki

Incredible stupidity from leadership in Madrid, simply incredible. Adding fuel to the fire.

munsterlegend

faceman wrote: »

The only people who are determined to vote in this referendum and die hard folk who want independence. Folks anywhere else on the spectrum, including those against it, won't come out mostly through fear.

The Spanish government should have allowed a peaceful vote. Remaining in Spain would have won and normal service resume. However these militant tactics by the government will only serve to push more people toward independence.

Most people want a quiet peaceful life and prefer status quo as opposed to uncertainty of unchange. Look at Scotland and even Ireland in 1916 when the leaders of the rising were derided on the street.

However if you oppress and create martyrs then all can change very quickly. I don't know whether economically Catalonia would be better off or not but even if were people would be find it hard to be convinced.

tomwaterford

ChikiChiki wrote: »

Incredible stupidity from leadership in Madrid, simply incredible. Adding fuel to the fire.

It seems inconceivabley stupid that they'd use force/riot police to stop people from voting

AlekSmart

tomwaterford wrote: »

It seems inconceivabley stupid that they'd use force/riot police to stop people from voting

Stupid perhaps,but it underlines one of the great differences between modern Ireland and most of the current E.U. which is,the Judicial & Policing arrangements.

Many of those States which we visit/escape/relocate to,in such large numbers have VERY different policing arrangements to our own,which although regarded by some as para-military and/or oppressive tend to result in us returning after our visits loudly proclaiming how "You'd never see that carry-on being allowed in Madrid,Lisbon,Prague etc etc".

I would quite often be part of conversations in which Irish people,recount their interactions with,some of these National or Local Law Enforcement agencies,be they actual Police,or some of the variety of Gendarmerie which are active in mainland Europe.

Micheal McDowell,as far as I am aware,was the only senior politician to directly ask the question "What TYPE of Police Force does ireland want ?" at a summer school somewhere out West some years back.

I'm not certain if he ever recieved a definitive answer :eek:

Like it or not,there is a significant and growing sector,of Irish public opinion who might be quite receptive to a more robust approach to Law enforcement in general.

Samaris

At best at this point, the people of Catalonia will vote to remain and things will settle - but due to Madrid's heavy handed tactics, there will be anger and resentment. One person dies in a clash, and there will be fury.

But if Madrid keeps pushing and Catalonia manages to have their vote anyway and votes leave, the midden is going to be all over the windmill.

This was a terrible way to deal with the situation. It cannot go back to how it was now.

A Dub in Glasgo

Fully body armoured police throwing voters down stairs and dragging them out of the polling stations by the hair... lovely way to project a democacy in the EU

suicide_circus

*puts Catalonian flag filter on facebook profiler*

A Dub in Glasgo

The dog doesn't escape getting attacked by the police (14 seconds in)....

https://twitter.com/catalannews/status/914415980712996864

smurgen

The_Valeyard wrote: »

Lets build a wall. Make Ireland great again. Keep Cork out

Please.Cork is the biggest GDP contibuter in the country per capita. Cutting out Dublin rule would free us. Might finally get proper infrastructure.

The_Valeyard

smurgen wrote: »

Please.Cork is the biggest GDP contibuter in the country per capita. Cutting out Dublin rule would free us. Might finally get proper infrastructure.

You have to take Kerry with you.

munsterlegend

munsterlegend wrote: »

Most people want a quiet peaceful life and prefer status quo as opposed to uncertainty of unchange. Look at Scotland and even Ireland in 1916 when the leaders of the rising were derided on the street.

However if you oppress and create martyrs then all can change very quickly. I don't know whether economically Catalonia would be better off or not but even if were people would be find it hard to be convinced.

And what the Spanish authorities are doing today is the equivalent of the shooting of the 1916 leaders. Polls apparently showed that this referendum was not going to be carried. Spectacular incompetence all round by Spain here.

ChikiChiki

Pictures and videos of old ladies being battered on twitter, these cops surely not Catalans but moreso drafted in thugs? Videos of cops marching in on small villages and being the agressors. Always thought Spain had a mean streak from their love of barbaic bloodsports.

This is exactly what you would expect to see in a dictatorship like Venezuela, not in the bloody EU.

A Dub in Glasgo

They are shipped in from the rest of Spain as well as local police

https://twitter.com/catalannews/status/914453409453023232


https://twitter.com/wikileaks/status/911173118827393024

Richard Hillman

One thing that struck me in Spain about the Civil Guardia is that they are seriously built guys that wouldn't be out of place at an MMA ring. Not the type that you would fancy yourself against in a riot situation

mad muffin

This is what happens when a country is living on dictator time for over 70 years…

osarusan

Samaris

On top of the rest of it, wasn't this very situation commented on by spods all over Europe back when Scotland tried it? If just people spectating from the internet could see it coming, surely Madrid, with in-depth knowledge of the situation, should have seen it coming?

So why in heaven's name are they reacting in this "caught-on-the-hop" clamp-down method? They had plenty of warning this could happen, even if Scotland didn't vote independence.

Elmer Blooker

I don't think this referendum can be taken seriously when the organisers are now telling the voters that they can print their own ballot papers at home!
Print how many? A hundred maybe?

Samaris

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

I don't think this referendum can be taken seriously when the organisers are now telling the voters that they can print their own ballot papers at home!
Print how many? A hundred maybe?

Well, the records of who lives where and how many people of a given name there are should sort things out to a large extent. I don't know what the rules are regarding ID either.

But really, when the referendum is being dropped on to this extent, what other choice is there? There's no really good options. And there's the almost certain fear amongst the population that people who do vote have their names somewhere as having voted in this illegal referendum and what could that mean later on. This may or may not be a fear that will ever come true, but given what's going on, that cannot help but have passed through many minds.

The_Valeyard

The Spanish government action today may just ignite the flames of open rebellion.

RasTa

Well this is pretty crazy

https://twitter.com/JulianAssange/status/914428231977197568

bear1

Madrids reaction to this has been completely over the top and you'd nearly side with Catalans for their own independence.
I wonder if Catalonia was actually the poorest region would Madrid care as much?
Let them vote and then see what happens but because of images of Spanish police on the attack it will just result in people voting in anger rather than logically.
Madrid has shot themselves with this and the eu should call them out on their approach to what was a peaceful event.

A Dub in Glasgo

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

I don't think this referendum can be taken seriously when the organisers are now telling the voters that they can print their own ballot papers at home!
Print how many? A hundred maybe?

Maybe so, the paramilitary police have smashed their way into the polling stations and stole the voting boxes and the voting forms anyway. Voters had to show ID and the polling station had an internet connection to the electoral register. The police cut the internet links at the polling stations this morning

bear1

RasTa wrote: »

Well this is pretty crazy

https://twitter.com/JulianAssange/status/914428231977197568

Absolutely disgusting behaviour from them. Throwing women down stairs as well.
Bet those actions will be defended too.

The_Valeyard

bear1 wrote: »

Madrids reaction to this has been completely over the top and you'd nearly side with Catalans for their own independence.
I wonder if Catalonia was actually the poorest region would Madrid care as much?
Let them vote and then see what happens but because of images of Spanish police on the attack it will just result in people voting in anger rather than logically.
Madrid has shot themselves with this and the eu should call them out on their approach to what was a peaceful event.

If you were unsure about Independence or not, the over reaction today by State thugs has probably swung people thay way.

As stated earlier, if the Spanish are not careful, they will create their own 1916

kupus

Italy wants to divide north and south. Then the very north of italy wants to be independant, more germanic than italian.

Tis funny to hear the singsong italian accent spoken with what seems like a german dialect but is italian

Belgium wants to split in three. French Netherlands and Germany.

Catalan region, basque region, scotland, northern ireland,
Bosnia wants o split into three again. Albania/kosovo wants a part of Macedonia. Greece wants a part of macedonia.

Interesting times.

tonycascarino

kupus wrote: »

Italy wants to divide north and south. Then the very north of italy wants to be independant, more germanic than italian.

Tis funny to hear the singsong italian accent spoken with what seems like a german dialect but is italian

Belgium wants to split in three. French Netherlands and Germany.

Catalan region, basque region, scotland, northern ireland,
Bosnia wants o split into three again. Albania/kosovo wants a part of Macedonia. Greece wants a part of macedonia.

Interesting times.

..and Germany (using the EU) want Europe in its' entirety

The_Valeyard

kupus wrote: »

Italy wants to divide north and south. Then the very north of italy wants to be independant, more germanic than italian.

Tis funny to hear the singsong italian accent spoken with what seems like a german dialect but is italian

Belgium wants to split in three. French Netherlands and Germany.

Catalan region, basque region, scotland, northern ireland,
Bosnia wants o split into three again. Albania/kosovo wants a part of Macedonia. Greece wants a part of macedonia.

Interesting times.

The end of nation states?

bear1

kupus wrote: »

Italy wants to divide north and south. Then the very north of italy wants to be independant, more germanic than italian.

Tis funny to hear the singsong italian accent spoken with what seems like a german dialect but is italian

Belgium wants to split in three. French Netherlands and Germany.

Catalan region, basque region, scotland, northern ireland,
Bosnia wants o split into three again. Albania/kosovo wants a part of Macedonia. Greece wants a part of macedonia.

Interesting times.

Not really correct about Italy.
The only region and I use the word region loosely is Trentino alto adige.
And primarily it's bolzano as for example Trento would already consider themselves Italian.
Bolzano And it's surrounding areas want to unite with Austria and so have German as their first language.
They enjoy a lot of autonomy.
Lombardy wanted to be it's on country and then you have the usual Sicily and sardegna regions which want independence but these regions aren't wealthy so I can't see being able to survive if they left.

Turtwig

This is the height of stupidity by the Spanish government. There is a very real danger that the more fringe separatists Catalan use the apparent impotency of peaceful and democratic protests to push for more violent conflict.

Turtwig

Turtwig wrote: »

This is the height of stupidity by the Spanish government. There is a very real danger that the more fringe separatists Catalan use the apparent impotency of peaceful and democratic protests to push for more violent conflict.

Yes, it's a bit like putting G clamps on a pressure cooker and screwing down the safety valve, allowing the vote to go ahead would have released the steam out of the system.

bilston

Very odd reaction by the Spanish police, as I understand it this referendum has no validity. They'd have better to leave well alone. This just makes emboldens any independence movement that exists in Catalonia.