Dublin North Quays - now double bus lane

bk

Peter Flynt The above numbers for DB and BE aren't directly comparable between years, as the NTA changed from a model of paying DB/BE and then letting them buy buses/coaches themselves, to a model with the NTA buys the coaches/buses and allows BE/DB to use them free, but with a reduced direct subsidy. You are comparing apples and oranges there.

I haven't looked into the details of Irish Rail, but I believe something similar has happened with the separation of the network division from operations.

Peter Flynt

bk wrote: »

Peter Flynt The above numbers for DB and BE aren't directly comparable between years, as the NTA changed from a model of paying DB/BE and then letting them buy buses/coaches themselves, to a model with the NTA buys the coaches/buses and allows BE/DB to use them free, but with a reduced direct subsidy. You are comparing apples and oranges there.

I haven't looked into the details of Irish Rail, but I believe something similar has happened with the separation of the network division from operations.

Provide the figures which show how much the NTA are providing in "free" buses to DB/BE and let's see if bridges the difference in the subvention cuts.

Are the NTA providing DB with €56m (the difference between 2016 and 2012) worth of buses per year?
somehow I rather doubt it.

hmmm

Peter Flynt wrote: »

Clearly you're happy for the lives of these people to be made much worse just so some people can get into the city centre ten minutes earlier in the morning.

Yes. some of us are happier that the lives of thousands of commuters have been made better, at the expense of a small number of motorists, most of who have other options available.

Another is in his car 5 hours per day and has stated he has no choice.

Everyone has a choice, it's just many don't like the choice. Most of us would love to zoom into the city centre in our private cars.

Peter Flynt

hmmm wrote: »

Yes. some of us are happier that the lives of thousands of commuters have been made better, at the expense of a small number of motorists, most of who have other options available.

That's fine.

As I've stated before the policy is about forcing people out of cars and onto buses or bikes whilst not overtly improving public transport and expecting it to run on subvention cuts.

Irony might be that if more people leave their cars at home then that slightly shorter journey into town might start becoming a heck of a lot more uncomfortable as the buses and trains are already crammed as it is.

Perhaps those on public transport should be careful for what they wish for.

devnull

Peter Flynt wrote: »

Provide the figures which show how much the NTA are providing in "free" buses to DB/BE and let's see if bridges the difference in the subvention cuts.

Are the NTA providing DB with €56m (the difference between 2016 and 2012) worth of buses per year?
somehow I rather doubt it.

For a start your logic is flawed because Dublin Bus operate less services than 2009 because Network Direct streamlined the network.

Dublin Bus
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/state-paid-almost-100m-to-dublin-bus-last-year-1.2786090

Dublin Bus have been provided with 425 buses between 2012-2016 directly paid for by the taxpayer, as you can imagine these buses do not grow on trees and are very expensive for what is now a much higher specification bus than was ordered in 2009 when Dublin Bus ordered vehicles directly.

In 2013 there was €31.1 million to buy buses for the use by the company. In 2014, this figure increased to €55.6 million while in 2015 it spent €37.4 million on vehicles for the Dublin Bus fleet. This is before all other capital grants that are also given to the company, for example in 2004 another €8m was provided on top of the subvention and vehicles.

Bus Eireann
https://www.nationaltransport.ie/news/fleet-of-the-future-over-100-new-buses-for-bus-eireann-services-nationwide/

Bus Eireann had €50m invested in 116 vehicles in 2016 alone and have recieved similar investments over the last few years:

Peter Flynt

devnull wrote: »

For a start your logic is flawed because Dublin Bus operate less services than 2009 because Network Direct streamlined the network.

Dublin Bus
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/state-paid-almost-100m-to-dublin-bus-last-year-1.2786090

Dublin Bus have been provided with 425 buses between 2012-2016 directly paid for by the taxpayer, as you can imagine these buses do not grow on trees and are very expensive for what is now a much higher specification bus than was ordered in 2009 when Dublin Bus ordered vehicles directly.

In 2013 there was €31.1 million to buy buses for the use by the company. In 2014, this figure increased to €55.6 million while in 2015 it spent €37.4 million on vehicles for the Dublin Bus fleet. This is before all other capital grants that are also given to the company, for example in 2004 another €8m was provided on top of the subvention and vehicles.

Bus Eireann
https://www.nationaltransport.ie/news/fleet-of-the-future-over-100-new-buses-for-bus-eireann-services-nationwide/

Bus Eireann had €50m invested in 116 vehicles in 2016 alone and have recieved similar investments over the last few years:

These are investments which I accept, but they are investments from a very low base.

Government has to invest because if it does not there won't be a transport service. The real question is whether the investment is enough to provide a quality transport service.

It isn't. Because it all goes back to my original point which stated that in IRL we don't invest seriously in any public infrastructure.

The hospitals are a mess with people on trolleys everywhere, the schools are vastly underresourced, poor people can go homeless rather than, perish the thought, government investing in a programme of house building. . . . But apparently everything is hunky dory in terms of transport. I don't believe a word of it.

These "investments" also are barely keeping pace with the numbers who have returned to work over the time period you mention (since 2012-13)

Stephen15

devnull wrote: »

For a start your logic is flawed because Dublin Bus operate less services than 2009 because Network Direct streamlined the network.

Dublin Bus
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/state-paid-almost-100m-to-dublin-bus-last-year-1.2786090

Dublin Bus have been provided with 425 buses between 2012-2016 directly paid for by the taxpayer, as you can imagine these buses do not grow on trees and are very expensive for what is now a much higher specification bus than was ordered in 2009 when Dublin Bus ordered vehicles directly.

In 2013 there was €31.1 million to buy buses for the use by the company. In 2014, this figure increased to €55.6 million while in 2015 it spent €37.4 million on vehicles for the Dublin Bus fleet. This is before all other capital grants that are also given to the company, for example in 2004 another €8m was provided on top of the subvention and vehicles.

Bus Eireann
https://www.nationaltransport.ie/news/fleet-of-the-future-over-100-new-buses-for-bus-eireann-services-nationwide/

Bus Eireann had €50m invested in 116 vehicles in 2016 alone and have recieved similar investments over the last few years:

The money to buy new buses pre 2012 was funded for the most part by the DoT however this function of the DoT has now been outsourced to the NTA. The difference being that the NTA now own the buses rather than BAC or BE.

Its a little rich to say that the NTA is giving out 'free' buses to BAC or BE. Someone pays for them whether that be the taxpayer or through fares/company profit. The NTA also takes a cut of BAC and BE's profits however thats another debate for another day.

I do find some of the new buses bought in a little excessive and unesscary. I know it was nessecary to replace the wheelchair inaccessible RV class however some of the AV class that was withdrawn was in reletively good nick. I know the NTA want middle doors which is good but surely it would have been cheaper to retrofit middle doors on some of these buses than buying brand new ones.

Spanish Eyes

If it wasn't for the car parks in the City Centre, the Quays would be car free now.

Cars being catered for has nothing to do with one lane or whatever, just the car parks.

Sth William/Clarendon Streets cannot be pedestrianised because of BT car park either.

It is mad Ted.

devnull

Stephen15 wrote: »

The money to buy new buses pre 2012 was funded for the most part by the DoT however this function of the DoT has now been outsourced to the NTA. The difference being that the NTA now own the buses rather than BAC or BE.

Pre 2012 it was a completely different model which was operated and was not really customer focused since it was more, here is the money do with it what you see fit compared to now where money is only granted in exchange for certain things happen and certain things being met.

If taxpayers money is being handed over the people who are handing it over absloutely have a right to some degree over how it is spent else it leads to financial black holes which have happened in numerous parts of the public sector over the years.

Its a little rich to say that the NTA is giving out 'free' buses to BAC or BE. Someone pays for them whether that be the taxpayer or through fares/company profit. The NTA also takes a cut of BAC and BE's profits however thats another debate for another day.

The only people who are counting them as free are the people who ignore the cost of them when they cherry pick numbers to try and prove that the company is funded less by the taxpayer than it actually is in practice.

I do find some of the new buses bought in a little excessive and unesscary. I know it was nessecary to replace the wheelchair inaccessible RV class however some of the AV class that was withdrawn was in reletively good nick. I know the NTA want middle doors which is good but surely it would have been cheaper to retrofit middle doors on some of these buses than buying brand new ones.

Retrofitting middle doors is a huge cost because of the cost of fitting exta electrics, cabling, changing the body and the structure of it and totally would not be worth it. Besides the AVs cost a lot more to run since warranties would have been out long ago and they use a lot more fuel than the newer vehicles which have far more fuel effiecent engines and would be on maintenance and spares contracts with Volvo as part of the purchase.

Very few of the AV's which have left Dublin Bus have seen anything like the same intensity of work that they have with Dublin Bus. Sure many have been exported to the UK and are used within Ireland but you won't see them out on the road all day long like they would be for Dublin Bus, they've all gone to small operators who would use them for hire work or would do a few runs a day, they're certainly not worked intensively.

Plus at the end of the day, the newer buses are more likely to get people out of their cars because of the newer features they have and more modern environment, sure, to the likes of you and me we'd get the bus anyway if it was an AV or an SG, but someone who has took the car for the last 15 years and hasn't got the bus will walk onto an AV and think nothing has changed at all, but if they get on an SG they'll notice a difference straight away from the Dublin Bus of the 90s and the 00s which lets face it, had an image problem to many private car owners.

If we want to encourage more people to use public transport to reduce congestion in the cities, we need to encourage them to do that by shaking off negative perceptions of the service from the past and replacing them with a perception of a modern on-board experience that allows them to get on and off the vehicles quickly, reduce dwell times at stops, give them proper journey information so they know when their stop is, provide added extras and maybe we can encourage people to public transport.

prinzeugen

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

If it wasn't for the car parks in the City Centre, the Quays would be car free now.

Cars being catered for has nothing to do with one lane or whatever, just the car parks.

Sth William/Clarendon Streets cannot be pedestrianised because of BT car park either.

It is mad Ted.

What is mad is this car free thing. Just because you can cycle/use PT does not mean everyone can.

Unless you want the city centre to be for the exclusive use of cyclists, Google/Facebook and bank employees.

MGWR

Peregrine wrote: »

It's about time we stopped allocating the majority of road space to the least efficient user and whatever is left over to more efficient users of space.

It will improve the journeys of tens of thousands of bus users.

No it will not. And increasing city centre chaos will result in businesses and other jobs moving out of Dublin. Efficiency is relative to how fast you can make any road vehicle get from point A to point B, and slowing down the road traffic is not the way to do that (traffic crawling at 5 mph or slower is the least efficient, whether car or bus); not to mention all the fumes that bus passengers will now have to breathe in from now-stationary vehicles that could be in motion.

Want to make things a bit better (but only a bit)? Make the Luas Red Line's city-centre right of way a dual-use BRT. Get the buses off the quays once and for all. (If it were elevated, it could serve this purpose better, but it is not; and Luddite NIMBYs would be against such structures these days.) Of course, thanks to Network "Direct", there are fewer bus routes available to try to entice automobile drivers to use them instead of their cars.

BTW, "tens of thousands" relative to millions of daily travellers is not a big improvement besides. And there is no guarantee here of improved average speeds for the buses.

Cookie_Monster

MGWR wrote: »

BTW, "tens of thousands" relative to millions of daily travellers is not a big improvement besides. .

millions of daily travellers? where exactly?

aliveandkicking

MGWR wrote: »

No it will not. And increasing city centre chaos will result in businesses and other jobs moving out of Dublin. Efficiency is relative to how fast you can make any road vehicle get from point A to point B, and slowing down the road traffic is not the way to do that (traffic crawling at 5 mph or slower is the least efficient, whether car or bus); not to mention all the fumes that bus passengers will now have to breathe in from now-stationary vehicles that could be in motion.

Want to make things a bit better (but only a bit)? Make the Luas Red Line's city-centre right of way a dual-use BRT. Get the buses off the quays once and for all. (If it were elevated, it could serve this purpose better, but it is not; and Luddite NIMBYs would be against such structures these days.) Of course, thanks to Network "Direct", there are fewer bus routes available to try to entice automobile drivers to use them instead of their cars.

BTW, "tens of thousands" relative to millions of daily travellers is not a big improvement besides. And there is no guarantee here of improved average speeds for the buses.

Complete and utter b0llocks from start to finish.

Efficiency of road space:

Peter Flynt

Such a disingenuous graphic above as it has 60 people going into 60 cars.

In Dublin city centre why not just ban cars, including taxis, and leave the streets clear for people on bicycles & buses?

Peter Flynt

Deedsie wrote: »

Not for all streets but certainly some of them that would make complete sense. Hopefully the double bus lane on the N&S quays and the luas when it begins operating will be a massive improvement for city centre public transport users.

I doubt it.

Minor improvements at best.

Peter Flynt

Deedsie wrote: »

Been great for some colleagues of mine. Said the flew in the North Quays on the bus.

Also hearing the nationwide buses getting into and out of Dublin from busaras have seen improved journey times

Pity the journeys are on our decrepid transport system though.

hmmm

Peter Flynt wrote: »

The hospitals are a mess with people on trolleys everywhere, the schools are vastly underresourced, poor people can go homeless rather than, perish the thought, government investing in a programme of house building. . . . But apparently everything is hunky dory in terms of transport. I don't believe a word of it.

They're not really, most of our hospitals and schools are fine. As is Public Transport.

I understand people need to justify in their own heads why they take the car and not public transport - frankly we could be like Switzerland and there would be complaints about it being "too punctual" or something. The bus, LUAS & train etc. is perfectly fine for most of Dublin (fine, not "great", it could of course be better).

magicbastarder

Peter Flynt wrote: »

Such a disingenuous graphic above as it has 60 people going into 60 cars.

you counted the cars?
iirc, a study done about ten years ago found an average occupancy per car of 1.17. for the canal cordon count, they assume a slightly higher figure of 1.25.

magicbastarder

MGWR wrote: »

Want to make things a bit better (but only a bit)? Make the Luas Red Line's city-centre right of way a dual-use BRT. Get the buses off the quays once and for all.

just to clarify - do you mean running buses and luases on the tracks at the same time?

L1011

Peter Flynt wrote: »

I doubt it.

Minor improvements at best.

Your guesswork at numbers has been quite poor all thread. I think it's continuing here.

If you've ever been on a bus down either quay you'll know the delays that were inherent

magicbastarder

i saw a comment on facebook (from someone who works in the city centre), complaining about traffic this morning - and i'm fairly certain he doesn't drive in.
AA roadwatch site reports heavy traffic at bachelor's walk - is today the first real test?

Interested Observer

magicbastarder wrote: »

i saw a comment on facebook (from someone who works in the city centre), complaining about traffic this morning - and i'm fairly certain he doesn't drive in.
AA roadwatch site reports heavy traffic at bachelor's walk - is today the first real test?

I turn right on the north quays at Camden St to Parliament St but the traffic was certainly heavy up to that point. I'm on a bike fwiw.

ThisRegard

L1011 wrote: »

Every cash/epurse customer has to interact for far longer than with properly designed setups

Worse exists - outer suburban buses in Amsterdam with hand stamped paper tickets for cash customers for instance - but that doesn't mean the Dublin system is amongst the slowest

Places in Italy, probably many other countries too, still use paper tickets for cash that the driver tears from a book, alongside both the traditional mechanical machine you insert the ticket into, and the newer contactless ones. So you have all 3 systems in place, and the driver accepting large bank notes and counting out the change.

I love Sean nos

magicbastarder wrote: »

why did you include other fixed costs like insurance and tax, but exclude depreciation/ownership costs?

Because being honest doesn't suit his argument.

I love Sean nos

prinzeugen wrote: »

What is mad is this car free thing. Just because you can cycle/use PT does not mean everyone can.

Unless you want the city centre to be for the exclusive use of cyclists, Google/Facebook and bank employees.

Are you referring yet again to...the elderly and the disabled? :pac:

cherryghost

Traffic was awful everywhere from what I had seen.

There was inicidents on the M50 though I'm not sure if lines up with peak traffic this AM (I got in at 8am and traffic was really bad).

Marlay

cherryghost wrote: »

Traffic was awful everywhere from what I had seen.

There was inicidents on the M50 though I'm not sure if lines up with peak traffic this AM (I got in at 8am and traffic was really bad).

Most of the schools are back now from today, so traffic will steadily increase back to normality from the summer low.

Pinch Flat

magicbastarder wrote: »

i saw a comment on facebook (from someone who works in the city centre), complaining about traffic this morning - and i'm fairly certain he doesn't drive in.
AA roadwatch site reports heavy traffic at bachelor's walk - is today the first real test?

Traffic was noticeably more busy heading down the quays at the Croppy Acre - 3 or 4 cars skipped into the bus lane to turn up Blackhall place. That cycle lane there is lethal - guy just sailed across 3 or 4 on bikes as if they weren't there.

Traffic seemed lighter after than, but could see it busy again heading towards O'Connell Street

Traffic was also heavy over Church Street bridge heading up the hill at Christchurch. This more or less continued all the way to the Green at the Shelbourne.

The madness has started....

I love Sean nos

Peter Flynt wrote: »

Such a disingenuous graphic above as it has 60 people going into 60 cars.

That's generally how cars are used Monday to Friday. At the weekend, car occupancy increases due to more family trips.

How many people do you share your VW Golf with on your 4km commute?

Vans normally have a higher occupancy rate than cars.

Chuchote

suicide_circus wrote: »

But sure why don't you do your call out on a push bike?

Probably a joke, but in fact it wouldn't be a bad idea; most plumbing call-outs aren't going to require anything that wouldn't fit in a couple of panniers.

I'm expecting to see creative tradesmen taking to cargo bikes in the coming months.