Dublin North Quays - now double bus lane

monument

LXFlyer wrote: »

While the Quays are freeing up the congestion is moving elsewhere.

Beresford Place is a traffic nightmare, full stop.

The SCR is becoming a traffic black spot (particularly between Leonard's Corner and Kelly's Corner) and is having also having a knock on effect on Rathmines Road Lower in the morning peak.

So while some bus routes have gained, others are now worse off.

Err... you’re putting a lot on the quays bus lanes.

Beresford Place is a direct result of not banning cars at Eden Quay — the council’s figures are showing that more cars are now going straight on at O’Connell Bridge and using Beresford Place To get to the south side (ie to get around the right turn ban at O’Connell Bridge).

But Rathmines? When was Kelly's Corner not a black spot for traffic at peak? I was at that corner for quite a while taking stock images on a summer morning before the changes on the quays and it was gridlocked then, so, I’m not surprised it has got worse since given schools and third level colleges are back, the economy is better, footfall is back to increasing and tram testing is gearing up.

Regards of the source, extra bus priority measures are needed.

BonnieSituation

07Lapierre wrote: »

You hate cycling... that's ok.. stop moaning about standing room only and suck it up! It's public transport ... you pay to get from A to B..

Jesus Christ. Are you always this constructive?

The initial post was about capacity issues not about me having to stand. I didn't as it happened. Your "solution" was pointless.

stop

Ben D Bus wrote: »

I found it OK around 08:00 this morning. Heavy but moving very well in the bus lane. What I did notice was that Beresford place was at a virtual standstill. Drivers who previously turned onto OCB from Bachelors walk, continuing on to the Matt Talbot and having to loop around the Custom House?

The problem at Beresford Place is traffic coming from Gardiner is blocking the lanes to Amiens St. As always, yellow boxes are being ignored.

stop

LXFlyer wrote: »

While the Quays are freeing up the congestion is moving elsewhere.

Beresford Place is a traffic nightmare, full stop.

The SCR is becoming a traffic black spot (particularly between Leonard's Corner and Kelly's Corner) and is having also having a knock on effect on Rathmines Road Lower in the morning peak.

So while some bus routes have gained, others are now worse off.

Buses from Rathmines could make life raised on themselves by not letting cars from Lennox St pull out - I'm talking about drivers waving car after car out. No yellow box, no need for it.

LXFlyer

monument wrote: »

Err... you’re putting a lot on the quays bus lanes.

Beresford Place is a direct result of not banning cars at Eden Quay — the council’s figures are showing that more cars are now going straight on at O’Connell Bridge and using Beresford Place To get to the south side (ie to get around the right turn ban at O’Connell Bridge).

But Rathmines? When was Kelly's Corner not a black spot for traffic at peak? I was at that corner for quite a while taking stock images on a summer morning before the changes on the quays and it was gridlocked then, so, I’m not surprised it has got worse since given schools and third level colleges are back, the economy is better, footfall is back to increasing and tram testing is gearing up.

Regards of the source, extra bus priority measures are needed.

I think you're putting words in my mouth monument.

I didn't mention the bus lanes in my post - I merely said that the bus routes on the Quays have improved, but that from my observation the traffic problem had shifted elsewhere. Or can I not comment on what I believe are side effects of the revised traffic arrangements any more???

Beresford Place is one such location and the reason is partly as you outlined, the increased traffic flow to get to the South Quays, but also traffic from Gardiner St blocking through traffic, and it is becoming a real problem area. Some buses have taken 10 minutes or even more from Eden Quay to Amiens Street.

In 25 years of commuting I have never seen the SCR or the area around Kelly's Corner as bad as it has been since the revised traffic measures were introduced, and I would tend to believe that the two are related. Journey times are getting longer far earlier than I've ever experienced. Yes it's an observation on my part, and I could of course be wrong, but I don't think I am.

For the record (again) I'm not against the bus priority measures on the Quays at all - I'm merely pointing out that there are other areas which now need dealing with as a consequence of the changes.

07Lapierre

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Jesus Christ. Are you always this constructive?

I know, some People eh? yeah i have to admit removing seats is a bit daft alright!

monument

LXFlyer wrote: »

I think you're putting words in my mouth monument.

Which words exactly? Happy to retract if I have misrepresented you. Let me explain and expand on what I meant anyway...

LXFlyer wrote: »

I didn't mention the bus lanes in my post - I merely said that the bus routes on the Quays have improved, but that from my observation the traffic problem had shifted elsewhere. Or can I not comment on what I believe are side effects of the revised traffic arrangements any more???

You were clearly referring to the bus routes improving because of and the effects of the bus lanes and other measures on the quays. To be clear: I never said you were against those measures, but just that you were putting a lot on them.

You are free to comment, but I and others are also free to give our views on your views.

LXFlyer wrote: »

Beresford Place is one such location and the reason is partly as you outlined, the increased traffic flow to get to the South Quays, but also traffic from Gardiner St blocking through traffic, and it is becoming a real problem area. Some buses have taken 10 minutes or even more from Eden Quay to Amiens Street.

Thinking aloud here or adding to what you are saying rather then aiming this at you as such...

That would be an expected result after the Eden Quay plan was watered down — the extra traffic from Eden Quay fills up the space back to the quays beyond Gardiner St and then the motorists coming from Gardiner Street get frustrated and blocks the junction.

Addition measures might be useful regardless but a few weeks is likely not time enough for a lot of modal shift and a lot of the modal shift depends on Luas and new buses.

LXFlyer wrote: »

In 25 years of commuting I have never seen the SCR or the area around Kelly's Corner as bad as it has been since the revised traffic measures were introduced, and I would tend to believe that the two are related. Journey times are getting longer far earlier than I've ever experienced. Yes it's an observation on my part, and I could of course be wrong, but I don't think I am.

And in your 25 years of commuting there also wasn’t a Luas Cross City line being tested (maybe you are blaming Luas rather than the quays?), Dublin didn’t have such a large population and it seems like there’s possibly more jobs centrally located than years ago.

LXFlyer wrote: »

For the record (again) I'm not against the bus priority measures on the Quays at all - I'm merely pointing out that there are other areas which now need dealing with as a consequence of the changes.

I never said you were, I said you were putting a lot on the plate of the bus lanes / priority measures.

At the end of the day I was just trying to make the point that it’s probably the quays. If I said something or picked something up wrong — sorry!

KD345

LXFlyer wrote: »

In 25 years of commuting I have never seen the SCR or the area around Kelly's Corner as bad as it has been since the revised traffic measures were introduced, and I would tend to believe that the two are related. Journey times are getting longer far earlier than I've ever experienced. Yes it's an observation on my part, and I could of course be wrong, but I don't think I am.

For the record (again) I'm not against the bus priority measures on the Quays at all - I'm merely pointing out that there are other areas which now need dealing with as a consequence of the changes.

This isn’t surprising, I read they have tweaked the traffic light signals in this area, extending the time for pedestrian crossing and holding back traffic flow. While this reduces the amount of traffic piling into the core of the city, it just causes snarl ups further out.

LXFlyer

monument wrote: »

Which words exactly? Happy to retract if I have misrepresented you. Let me explain and expand on what I meant anyway...



You were clearly referring to the bus routes improving because of and the effects of the bus lanes and other measures on the quays. To be clear: I never said you were against those measures, but just that you were putting a lot on them.

You are free to comment, but I and others are also free to give our views on your views.




Thinking aloud here or adding to what you are saying rather then aiming this at you as such...

That would be an expected result after the Eden Quay plan was watered down — the extra traffic from Eden Quay fills up the space back to the quays beyond Gardiner St and then the motorists coming from Gardiner Street get frustrated and blocks the junction.

Addition measures might be useful regardless but a few weeks is likely not time enough for a lot of modal shift and a lot of the modal shift depends on Luas and new buses.




And in your 25 years of commuting there also wasn’t a Luas Cross City line being tested (maybe you are blaming Luas rather than the quays?), Dublin didn’t have such a large population and it seems like there’s possibly more jobs centrally located than years ago.



I never said you were, I said you were putting a lot on the plate of the bus lanes / priority measures.

At the end of the day I was just trying to make the point that it’s probably the quays. If I said something or picked something up wrong — sorry!

"Putting a lot" = blaming them in my books - it suggested to me that you were making out that I was against the priority measures, which I am not.

It is my opinion that some of the changes in traffic in other areas are a result of people varying their routes as a result of the changes on the Quays. Clearly that is inevitable.

I don't think that having just four trams out from 07:00 to 19:00 on LCC is going to cause that much difference to general traffic - only when we get to full schedule will we see the impact that LCC itself has (I imagine that will be a gradual process).

The issues at Beresford Place are in part likely down to the revised traffic routes (and other drivers blocking routes) as I mentioned. But taking 10+ minutes from Eden Quay to Amiens St is an issue that will need addressing somehow. It's just moving the problem of delays from one set of bus routes/location to another.

I suspect the SCR issues are down in part to people taking alternative routes from farther out (as encouraged by DCC) rather than going along the Quays.

Again I am not "blaming" anything - I'm reporting my observations. With respect monument you're coming across as suggesting I wouldn't be thinking of those other potential causes - I'd like to think that I have a good knowledge or understanding of traffic flows around this city, probably better than most given that I've commuted around much of it over 25 years.

trellheim

I'd echo a lot of things here. For example - the tailback on NCR eastbound at Dorset St is now back to beyond the Mater a lot of the time; this is exactly where the displaced traffic from the quays might have moved and nothing has been done to help it

monument

LXFlyer wrote: »

With respect monument you're coming across as suggesting I wouldn't be thinking of those other potential causes - I'd like to think that I have a good knowledge or understanding of traffic flows around this city, probably better than most given that I've commuted around much of it over 25 years.

You might but others reading might not. As I said, thinking aloud here or adding to what you are saying rather then aiming this at you as such...

My main point would be that traffic was already at gridlock levels in the summer at Kelly's Corner.

LXFlyer

monument wrote: »

You might but others reading might not. As I said, thinking aloud here or adding to what you are saying rather then aiming this at you as such...

My main point would be that traffic was already at gridlock levels in the summer at Kelly's Corner.

It certainly was not to the levels that I've noticed and more relevantly as early as I've noticed it lately.

With respect I am not in the habit of posting frivolous observations here - the traffic level is most definitely heavier and occurring earlier than before, and specifically early bus journeys are taking longer than I've noticed ever before. I'm discounting the seasonal changes when I'm saying this.

I genuinely believe that some of this is down to more traffic taking alternative routes away from the Quays.

The journey times for the buses until they reach that general area are comparable to previous years - hence my thinking on this.

monument

LXFlyer wrote: »

It certainly was not to the levels that I've noticed and more relevantly as early as I've noticed it lately.

With respect I am not in the habit of posting frivolous observations here - the traffic level is most definitely heavier and occurring earlier than before, and specifically early bus journeys are taking longer than I've noticed ever before. I'm discounting the seasonal changes when I'm saying this.

I genuinely believe that some of this is down to more traffic taking alternative routes away from the Quays.

The journey times for the buses until they reach that general area are comparable to previous years - hence my thinking on this.

Sure, fully I believe you that it’s worst now than the summer, all I’m saying it was at a crazy level at the summer when I was observing the junction.

And where something is already gridlocked, a few percentage increase in traffic can an effect more like a 10%+ increase.

LXFlyer

monument wrote: »

Sure, fully I believe you that it’s worst now than the summer, all I’m saying it was at a crazy level at the summer when I was observing the junction.

And where something is already gridlocked, a few percentage increase in traffic can an effect more like a 10%+ increase.

Monument - I am not sure how else I can put this.

This is worse than any previous winter / spring / summer / autumn.

The traffic build up at that location is happening much earlier than I have ever witnessed it before and it is having a bigger impact on overall journey times on buses.

That's my observation.

I'm not comparing with the summer at all - I'm well aware of the seasonal variations.

monument

LXFlyer wrote: »

Monument - I am not sure how else I can put this.

This is worse than any previous winter / spring / summer / autumn.

The traffic build up at that location is happening much earlier than I have ever witnessed it before and it is having a bigger impact on overall journey times on buses.

That's my observation.

I'm not comparing with the summer at all - I'm well aware of the seasonal variations.

I’m not disagreeing with you but I am comparing it to the summer! Traffic levels were very high in the summer and that was only going to get worse.

I don’t think we’re really disagreeing much at all, but on our small differences I think we’ll have to agree to disagree!

LXFlyer

monument wrote: »

I’m not disagreeing with you but I am comparing it to the summer! Traffic levels were very high in the summer and that was only going to get worse.

I don’t think we’re really disagreeing much at all, but on our small differences I think we’ll have to agree to disagree!

What's the point in comparing to the summer when we are talking about the potential impact that traffic measures recently introduced are versus last year. It's rather pointless to compare with the summer in this context. I'm struggling to see the relevance of your posts with regard to my observations as a daily commuter.

You have to look back at similar times of the year. I have a pretty good idea of how long individual departures (or range of departures) on my bus routes would take both in the term time and summer time.

As it happens there was no significant journey time lengthening during this summer for the bus routes through that area than previous years in my experience. The delays were in the city centre.

But I am noticing that compared with previous years in term time, the traffic build up in that area is far more significant, the bus journey times are longer, and more earlier departures are being affected adversely than I have ever noticed before.

monument

LXFlyer wrote: »

What's the point in comparing to the summer when we are talking about the potential impact that traffic measures recently introduced are versus last year. It's rather pointless to compare with the summer in this context. I'm struggling to see the relevance of your posts with regard to my observations as a daily commuter.

You have to look back at similar times of the year. I have a pretty good idea of how long individual departures (or range of departures) on my bus routes would take both in the term time and summer time.

As it happens there was no significant journey time lengthening during this summer for the bus routes through that area than previous years in my experience. The delays were in the city centre.

But I am noticing that compared with previous years in term time, the traffic build up in that area is far more significant, the bus journey times are longer, and more earlier departures are being affected adversely than I have ever noticed before.

The point of comparing the summer is it was at breaking point already in the summer, so, it’s not really a surprise that it’s worse now.

trellheim

with respect to the point at issue I can see the double bus lane being extended back to cover the whole of Ormond Quay , or removal of the bus stop outside the Ormonde Hotel as it is causing quite a kerfuffle with several buses in the queue to drop punters. Alternatively widening the bus stop so that 3 buses at a time could drop off. It is also a very very frequent occasion that delivery drivers and coaches will stop in peak hours to do their business ( can't stop it but at least regular policing might help ).

LXFlyer

monument wrote: »

The point of comparing the summer is it was at breaking point already in the summer, so, it’s not really a surprise that it’s worse now.

But it wasn't any different from any previous summer monument, that's my whole point.

Early departures from termini (pre-07:30) flew in as in previous years, passing there prior to 08:00-08:10 with relatively little traffic. I certainly didn't notice any extended journey times.

After that for sure traffic built up, but that was ever the case. That's nothing new.

What is happening now is that departures from termini after 07:10-07:20 are taking 5-15 minutes longer through that area than they did in previous autumns.

I've never had to go back to an 07:00 departure from the terminus to avoid the traffic before.

That is virtually entirely down to extra traffic on the SCR or from Lower Rathmines Rd to Camden St depending on the bus route.

LXFlyer

trellheim wrote: »

with respect to the point at issue I can see the double bus lane being extended back to cover the whole of Ormond Quay , or removal of the bus stop outside the Ormonde Hotel as it is causing quite a kerfuffle with several buses in the queue to drop punters. Alternatively widening the bus stop so that 3 buses at a time could drop off. It is also a very very frequent occasion that delivery drivers and coaches will stop in peak hours to do their business ( can't stop it but at least regular policing might help ).

Certainly some re-routing should happen to avoid the right turn onto Capel St Bridge for the 69/x and 79/a, for the moment at least sending them along the North Quays and over O'Connell Bridge.

That would facilitate all of the routes using the earlier bus stop on Ormond Quay.

Ben D Bus

monument wrote: »

Sure, fully I believe you that it’s worst now than the summer, all I’m saying it was at a crazy level at the summer when I was observing the junction.

And where something is already gridlocked, a few percentage increase in traffic can an effect more like a 10%+ increase.

The few percentage increase may be caused by rerouting traffic, but substantial economic growth - more people working - could account for it all by itself.

Wheety

I travel inbound on the North Quays every day and it is certainly much quicker getting to work near Stephen's Green. I used to get off at Ormonde Quay and walk because of the traffic but now that buses have priority, I don't need to anymore. I don't notice any significant delay further back.

Today there was an incident on Wolfe Tone Quay. Slight delay getting from Heuston to the Quays but then it was into a bus lane and moving again.

sharper

LXFlyer wrote: »

What is happening now is that departures from termini after 07:10-07:20 are taking 5-15 minutes longer through that area than they did in previous autumns.

My observation is peak traffic and bus loadings are higher this year than ever before. In the evenings traffic at the leixlip junction on the n4 is now taking several light cycles to get through which not something I've ever seen outside of an accident or unusual weather.

Many busses are also running full which takes longer to get everyone on and off. (Aside from the frustration of waiting for an hour while full busses sail past)

The quay changes may be making what you're seeing worse but it may only be a minor contributor.

strandroad

sharper wrote: »

My observation is peak traffic and bus loadings are higher this year than ever before. In the evenings traffic at the leixlip junction on the n4 is now taking several light cycles to get through which not something I've ever seen outside of an accident or unusual weather.

Many busses are also running full which takes longer to get everyone on and off. (Aside from the frustration of waiting for an hour while full busses sail past)

The quay changes may be making what you're seeing worse but it may only be a minor contributor.

I have a Dart commute and the trains are definitely more full too.

LXFlyer

Ben D Bus wrote: »

The few percentage increase may be caused by rerouting traffic, but substantial economic growth - more people working - could account for it all by itself.

sharper wrote: »

My observation is peak traffic and bus loadings are higher this year than ever before. In the evenings traffic at the leixlip junction on the n4 is now taking several light cycles to get through which not something I've ever seen outside of an accident or unusual weather.

Many busses are also running full which takes longer to get everyone on and off. (Aside from the frustration of waiting for an hour while full busses sail past)

The quay changes may be making what you're seeing worse but it may only be a minor contributor.

But why then is it only in those specific areas?

If it were general I'd expect the traffic issues all along the route - but it isn't?

Of course the economy is picking up but even at the height of the boom I never saw the SCR area this bad.

monument

LXFlyer wrote: »

But why then is it only in those specific areas?

If it were general I'd expect the traffic issues all along the route - but it isn't?

Of course the economy is picking up but even at the height of the boom I never saw the SCR area this bad.

Dublin now has a higher population than at the height of the boom, the office densely in the centre if the city has grown since and still in very high demand, and a lot more people are going to third level, and there’s loads of different things which were not there back in the boom from Luas to the quays to the contra-flow bus towards Rathmines.

MJohnston

Is it really surprising that a change in traffic systems somewhere in the city has led to a volume increase elsewhere? Eventually these drivers will realise that the traffic situation that they're contributing to isn't going to improve ever again, and they'll switch to other modes, but it was never going to happen right away.

It is interesting how much of the traffic people are saying is shifting to NCR rather than Church St > Dorset Street - it does make me wonder where these cars are originating from, as surely they'd take the SCR if they're heading to the Docklands area, presumably (if they originally used the Quays)?

I also wonder whether Kelly's Corner appears to be much busier because of the temporary traffic lights along Cabra Road - same amount of traffic is arriving, but they're all being bunched together much more closely.

Whatever it is, NCR is a route that's very vulnerable to domino-effect traffic, one vehicle blocks the junction at Dorset Street (which happens way too often) and then an entire traffic light phase is wasted, and it all stacks back. It was always an awful mess anyway, I live in Cabra and cycled to and from Docklands along NCR every day for work.