Dublin North Quays - now double bus lane

PuppyMcPupFace

Guys, appreciate the advice - walking is painful BUT once pain meds kick in at the start of the day walking does improve the feeling.

I would like to cycle but you hear some horror stories about how cyclists are treated and that's the good ones - me wobbling everywhere would terrify me!

But you never know the future. Thanks for the info.

AndrewJRenko

PuppyMcPupFace wrote: »

Guys, appreciate the advice - walking is painful BUT once pain meds kick in at the start of the day walking does improve the feeling.

I would like to cycle but you hear some horror stories about how cyclists are treated and that's the good ones - me wobbling everywhere would terrify me!

But you never know the future. Thanks for the info.

A cargo bike or other form of tricycle might be less wobbly - they're not cheap though.

Sierra Oscar

The Garda Traffic Corps were out ticketing drivers in the bus lane today, looks like they've really stepped up enforcement.

bobbyss

slavetothegrind wrote:

the sheer arrogance of that statement. You have no idea of that persons situation.

slavetothegrind wrote:

Everyone is a jockey with as long ladder....

100% agree.
Life isn't as simple as ' Oh, I've got a job in Stillorgan . Better up sticks and live in Stillorgan . I've got a six month contract in Dundalk. Better up sticks and live in Dundalk.'

That is not a reasonable position to hold. It's a simplistic, lazy catchcall.

amcalester

bobbyss wrote: »

100% agree.
Life isn't as simple as ' Oh, I've got a job in Stillorgan . Better up sticks and live in Stillorgan . I've got a six month contract in Dundalk. Better up sticks and live in Dundalk.'

That is not a reasonable position to hold. It's a simplistic, lazy catchcall.

Well don't take the job in Dundalk and complain about the traffic on the M1.

Works both ways.

07Lapierre

Now that there is only one car lane along the quays, I suspect that car traffic will actually move quicker due to less "lane swapping". Time will tell I suppose.

bobbyss

amcalester wrote:

Well don't take the job in Dundalk and complain about the traffic on the M1.

amcalester wrote:

Works both ways.

Again, all too simplistic way of looking at things I think. By that standard we should all stop complaining about traffic because it presents issues in getting to work.

amcalester

bobbyss wrote: »

Again, all too simplistic way of looking at things I think. By that standard we should all stop complaining about traffic because it presents issues in getting to work.

I agree, individuals should stop complaining about traffic unless they themselves are taking steps to reduce traffic volumes, whether that is by taking public transport, walking, cycling, moving to be closer to work, changing jobs etc. depends on the person, because otherwise these people are part of the problem not the solution.

BonnieSituation

Peter Flynt wrote: »

One last point: Public transport in Ireland is very expensive. The price of a Dublin Bus ticket from the suburbs into the city centre would far exceed the cost of petrol, tax, insurance etc. . for a similar car journey. Similar for trains.

2.60 on a leap card?

L1011

Peter Flynt wrote: »

One last point: Public transport in Ireland is very expensive. The price of a Dublin Bus ticket from the suburbs into the city centre would far exceed the cost of petrol, tax, insurance etc. . for a similar car journey. Similar for trains.

For a single occupant? Not a hope. 5.20 a day (max return leap fare) is going to be similar to the tax+insurance costs on their own, before fuel and depreciation are taken in to account.

For a car with multiple users you may, just about, be on to something. Its entirely reliant on free parking, though. Very few non-exec grade staff get free city centre parking.

magicbastarder

from main street blanchardstown to o'connell bridge is approx. 10km by the shortest route. that would cost roughly a euro in petrol or diesel costs alone at rush hour (based on roughly 40mpg or 7l/100km) - already nearly halfway to the cost of PT. newer cars with stop/start technology might push those costs down, but newer cars will push the other cost figures up regarding cost of ownership.

plus, speaking as someone who got the bus and luas to work for years, i'd go stir crazy having to sit in a car in rush hour traffic. that said, i live in an area with 4 bus routes i can use.

Peter Flynt

L1011 wrote: »

For a single occupant? Not a hope. 5.20 a day (max return leap fare) is going to be similar to the tax+insurance costs on their own, before fuel and depreciation are taken in to account.

For a car with multiple users you may, just about, be on to something. Its entirely reliant on free parking, though. Very few non-exec grade staff get free city centre parking.

My Insurance, Tax & NCT for a year come to about 725 per year or approx €2 per day.
Servicing a car costs approx €150 per year.
So approx €2.40 per day it's costing me to run a car before driving

I get around 10km for every €1 spent on fuel. I live 4km from city centre so it's around 0.40 in fuel.

So a return journey for me costs around €5.60. . . Not a massive difference between that and public transport cost.

Granted i drive a VW Golf. . . If I'm driving a more fancy car perhaps the increase in cost is something I'm more than willing to pay on account of my greater salary.

A real difference will only occur when I have to pay for parking, and many people who work in the city centre do not.

So perhaps a better way to encourage people to use public transport and/or bicycles is not to force them off the roads with new lanes but to place higher charges or levies on those who park in the city centre.

But, of course, the people who come up with these plans are not going to pay for charging themselves.

BeerNut

Peter Flynt wrote: »

not to force them off the roads with new lanes

Nobody has been forced off the road. The road is still there and completely free to use.

hmmm

Peter Flynt wrote: »

So a return journey for me costs around €5.60. . . Not a massive difference between that and public transport cost.

The externalities that are not factored in here are the costs that the council has to incur in order to allow you to drive, and the costs (financial and non-financial) that are distributed across everyone else who takes public transport e.g. longer commute times.

So perhaps a better way to encourage people to use public transport and/or bicycles is not to force them off the roads with new lanes but to place higher charges or levies on those who park in the city centre.

True, but then you'll have this public storm about how only the "rich" can afford to park in town, and how the "disadvantaged" are being forced out. We'll have every blind leper pensioner with two arses appearing on RTE news and Joe Duffy to complain.

Peter Flynt

BeerNut wrote: »

Nobody has been forced off the road. The road is still there and completely free to use.

Well it's not free as the motorist is substantially paying for the roads, unlike the cyclist.

Ultimately if you're making it intolerable for people to use roads via a car then you're forcing them off the roads.

Peter Flynt

hmmm wrote: »

The externalities that are not factored in here are the costs that the council has to incur in order to allow you to drive, and the costs (financial and non-financial) that are distributed across everyone else who takes public transport e.g. longer commute times.

Ah now come on. . . I stated that the personal financial cost is not that much a difference to me. This should not be surprising as the cost of public transport in Ireland is very expensive due to years of underinvestment and subvention cuts.

BeerNut

Peter Flynt wrote: »

Well it's not free as the motorist is substantially paying for the roads, unlike the cyclist.

The motorist is not paying for the road more than the cyclist.

Peter Flynt wrote: »

Ultimately if you're making it intolerable for people to use roads via a car then you're forcing them off the roads.

Last I looked, that road was full of people, tolerating, all the way back along the quays. Nobody looked remotely like they were being forced away from there. I'll check again tomorrow, but I bet it'll look the same: a big long row of toleration.

Peter Flynt

BeerNut wrote: »

Last I looked, that road was full of people, tolerating, all the way back along the quays. Nobody looked remotely like they were being forced away from there. I'll check again tomorrow, but I bet it'll look the same: a big long row of toleration.

Some of those people could have been in their car for up to one hour or two hours if they're coming from regions outside Dublin.

There's an article in the IT today detailing the lives of such people.
One guy stated he gets to see his children for 30 minutes per day.
Another is in his car 5 hours per day and has stated he has no choice.

Clearly you're happy for the lives of these people to be made much worse just so some people can get into the city centre ten minutes earlier in the morning.

magicbastarder

Peter Flynt wrote: »

My Insurance, Tax & NCT for a year come to about 725 per year or approx €2 per day.
Servicing a car costs approx €150 per year.
So approx €2.40 per day it's costing me to run a car before driving

I get around 10km for every €1 spent on fuel. I live 4km from city centre so it's around 0.40 in fuel.

So a return journey for me costs around €5.60. . . Not a massive difference between that and public transport cost.

Granted i drive a VW Golf. . .

a free VW golf, going on your calculations, as you have not accounted for purchase cost and/or depreciation. your €2.40 a day before driving it is probably less than half the actual value. looking at current values, you could buy a 5 year old golf and sell it after 5 years for around €5k less - €1k per year purchase costs work out at €2.70 per day.

magicbastarder

also, anyone who lives 4km from the city and would choose to drive in would need their head examining.
doing 4km at a time isn't ideal for your engine, plus i'd say you'd be hard pressed to get the stated €1 for 10km in fuel costs, in heavy urban traffic.


plus, return costs would be cheaper than stated on PT - i'm 4.7km from o'connell bridge, and it's €2.05 on the bus into town.

Peter Flynt

magicbastarder wrote: »

a free VW golf, going on your calculations, as you have not accounted for purchase cost and/or depreciation. your €2.40 a day before driving it is probably less than half the actual value. looking at current values, you could buy a 5 year old golf and sell it after 5 years for around €5k less - €1k per year purchase costs work out at €2.70 per day.

If you want to include depreciation then fine.

There are several advantages to using a car which make the €2.70 you calculate not seem significant, especially in the winter.

Depreciation on an issue like this is slightly disingenuous because I don't exclusively buy my car to travel a particular journey into the city centre, where these bus/cycle lanes are present.

I can drive my car and be in Tallaght in 15 minutes using the M50.
You could never do that from where I live using public transport or a bicycle because the facilities are not there for either. . . At least 60 minutes for each on the same journey

L1011

Peter Flynt wrote: »

My Insurance, Tax & NCT for a year come to about 725 per year or approx €2 per day.
Servicing a car costs approx €150 per year.
So approx €2.40 per day it's costing me to run a car before driving

I get around 10km for every €1 spent on fuel. I live 4km from city centre so it's around 0.40 in fuel.

So a return journey for me costs around €5.60. . . Not a massive difference between that and public transport cost.

Granted i drive a VW Golf. . . If I'm driving a more fancy car perhaps the increase in cost is something I'm more than willing to pay on account of my greater salary.

A real difference will only occur when I have to pay for parking, and many people who work in the city centre do not.

So perhaps a better way to encourage people to use public transport and/or bicycles is not to force them off the roads with new lanes but to place higher charges or levies on those who park in the city centre.

But, of course, the people who come up with these plans are not going to pay for charging themselves.

You won't get a set of tyres for a Golf for 150 let alone keep it roadworthy on 150 of servicing

And you're still reliant on free parking as well as a somehow free car for that calculation. Depreciation still happens on VWs!

magicbastarder

Peter Flynt wrote: »

Depreciation on an issue like this is slightly disingenuous

it's a hell of a lot more disingenuous to exclude the cost of owning a car when calculating how much it costs to have the use of a car. why did you include other fixed costs like insurance and tax, but exclude depreciation/ownership costs?

magicbastarder

L1011 wrote: »

You won't get a set of tyres for a Golf for 150 let alone keep it roadworthy on 150 of servicing

you'd want to be doing good mileage to get through a set of tyres in a year though. i've conti-ecos on my car - nearly three years old, about 10k per year on them, and there's a good bit of meat on them.

L1011

magicbastarder wrote: »

you'd want to be doing good mileage to get through a set of tyres in a year though. i've conti-ecos on my car - nearly three years old, about 10k per year on them, and there's a good bit of meat on them.

All comes in to the calculations - you might just scrape 150 for a year 1 service on a brand new car but it'll have lost thousands in depreciation that year

Peter Flynt

magicbastarder wrote: »

it's a hell of a lot more disingenuous to exclude the cost of owning a car when calculating how much it costs to have the use of a car. why did you include other fixed costs like insurance and tax, but exclude depreciation/ownership costs?

I made it clear in the previous posts that perhaps the financial cost of depreciation is offset by the fact that I don't have to wait in the pissing rain in the winter for buses that are late or don't turn up.

Bicycles & buses are fine. . . Go ahead and use em.

On a personal basis I used to cycle a lot into the city centre. The reason why I stopped was because I've had about four or five bicycles stolen from me and it's a crime that AGS do not take seriously.

Reducing the area available to cars is fine for others.
But let's not state that this is a situation which benefits all.
It isn't.
It benefits primarily those who live in Dublin and those who live closer to the city centre.

Will it improve the traffic situation?
It probably will as it will force people off the roads and into already overcrowded buses and trains as we have a transport system creaking at the seams.

magicbastarder

Peter Flynt wrote: »

I made it clear in the previous posts that perhaps the financial cost of depreciation is offset

No, it's not. You don't disregard possibly the biggest cost of car ownership simply because you think it's worth it. It's still there, and excluding it just looks arbitrary. Why exclude it as offset and not exclude the other costs?

Peter Flynt

All cities should be designed around the use of public transport and bicycles but don't tell me we are serious as a nation about public transport.

We are not.

Because anything which requires investment in public infrastructure in Ireland (like education, health, transport) is done half-heartedly financial wise. Subventions have been cut by 40-50% to major bus and rail companies and have not been restored. As a consequence fare prices have increased dramatically. As this becomes an issue for the transport companies their employees are forced to take pay cuts and worse terms and conditions of employment. if they threaten strike the blackmail card os played by government and their presstitutes in the media.

Use the bikes. . . Close off all the roads in the city. . . Introduce an Italian style ZTL zone if you like. . . .I couldn't care less.

devnull

Peter Flynt wrote: »

Subventions have been cut by 40-50% to major bus and rail companies and have not been restored. As a consequence fare prices have increased dramatically.

An absolute myth that it's been cut and not restored, some of the politicians and unions may spill that line but it's not based on reality and is based on flawed figures that don't take into account capital investment and non cash subsidises such as tens of millions of brand new vehicles provided every year at the cost to the state.

Even if you don't account for that the state funding was increased by 23.7% last year as has been published in the media recently and also by the NTA in their recent public transport statistics bulletin.

Leap Fares for mos also haven't changed that much in the last few years and haven't changed at all since December 2015 for Dublin Bus and very little other fares have changed since then.

Peter Flynt

devnull wrote: »

An absolute myth that it's been cut and not restored, some of the politicians and unions may spill that line but it's not based on reality and is based on flawed figures that don't take into account capital investment and non cash subsidises such as tens of millions of brand new vehicles provided every year at the cost to the state.

Even if you don't account for that the state funding was increased by 23.7% last year as has been published in the media recently and also by the NTA in their recent public transport statistics bulletin.

Leap Fares for mos also haven't changed that much in the last few years and haven't changed at all since December 2015 for Dublin Bus and very little other fares have changed since then.

State funding for Irish Rail was €170m in 2009, €166m in 2012 & €110m in 2016.
A 35% cut with respect to 2009.

State funding for Dublin Bus was €83m in 2009, €75m in 2012 & €59.6m in 2016.
A 28% cut with respect to 2009.

State funding for Bus Eireann was €49.4m in 2009, €36.9m in 2012 & €40.8m in 2016.
A 17% cut with respect to 2009.

There are many more people at work now v 2009 and hence in need of public transport.

http://www.thejournal.ie/public-transport-state-funding-ireland-facts-3206997-Feb2017/

Look at this:
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/education/schools/school-bus-system-in-chaos-but-minister-says-he-is-powerless-36074734.html

2000 children and parents in rural areas don't even know if they have a bus to school this week.

I suppose they should hop on their bikes?