Off Topic Chat. (MOD NOTE post# 3949 and post#5279)

Cass

yubabill1 wrote: »

It goes without saying that we all know that these scandals only involve a section of the force and that there are many Gardai who are horrified by all this.

They are going to train 1,000 senior Gardaí which i'm guessing will be filtered down to the lower ranks and regular members of AGS by those 1,000.

The simple fact that they have to train these senior Gardaí to act honestly is of itself, a joke. It implies that they did not know how or simply didn't act that way up until now. That suggests a severe lack of basic morality and a void of ethics.

You say the scandals i listed only apply to a small section of AGS. Well they're applicable to the senior levels of AGS, the very section that is being trained. Worse still nearly all those listed are in the last two years alone, are not everything that has happened and were anyone in any other profession to act in such a manner they would find themselves out of a job and possibly in prison.

What do we get? A refusal to step down and politicians that continue to support such people.

ezra_

Cass wrote: »

They are going to train 1,000 senior Gardaí which i'm guessing will be filtered down to the lower ranks and regular members of AGS by those 1,000.

The simple fact that they have to train these senior Gardaí to act honestly is of itself, a joke. It implies that they did not know how or simply didn't act that way up until now. That suggests a severe lack of basic morality and a void of ethics.

You say the scandals i listed only apply to a small section of AGS. Well they're applicable to the senior levels of AGS, the very section that is being trained. Worse still nearly all those listed are in the last two years alone, are not everything that has happened and were anyone in any other profession to act in such a manner they would find themselves out of a job and possibly in prison.

What do we get? A refusal to step down and politicians that continue to support such people.

This could be more along the lines of being able to action procedures against Gardai who engage in such actions in the future.

By making a bunch of them do a course (and ideally not rank and file, on the beat gardai) there is less of a defence "ah shur, don't we all do that like".

Cass

A training course won't legislate for that.

The law either exists or it doesn't. They've either broken it or they haven't. If it exists and they broke it then they should be charged and prosecuted. If the law doesn't exist then legislation is needed and not a training course as it will not suffice as it still is not legislation and so they [wrong doers] can continue to do as they please with nothing more severe than a slap on the wrist if caught.

Besides the prosecution of such actions the training course, as i said above, is a scathing indictment of the current views and morals of senior AGS if they need to be trained on what not to do, how to be honest, and to improve integrity while performing their duties.

I want to stress i'm not making assumptions of current senior AGS members as i don't know them, but this training course alludes to these issues as being a problem which raises the points i mentioned above.

Nekarsulm

It would be interesting to know who/what organisation would be providing this "Training" course.
If it an "in house" effort, then it is only window dressing.

If it is to be provided by some outside, or outside the State, organisation, then I would imagine it would take years for all the terms to be agreed and the 1000 places to be completed.

As with the pensions situation, you could have members picked to attend retiring before their attendance was required

And which member of the Gardaí would like to have it known that he/she were selected for "re training"?

Grizzly 45

The simple thing to do now is simply disbanded the Garda Siochanna as a force and start again, as was recommended years ago by the Patten report. If the RUC could be disbanded and re-established as the PSNI in Northern Ireland the same can be done with AGS. This force has been too involved in the politics of this state since its foundation.All appointments above inspector are political and not merit based, there is no accountability and even the Garda Inspectorate has stated it gets little to no cooperation in investigations and is bypassed.
On the ground level, its morale is gone lower than its boots, and it seems it can be used by certain politicians as its own private security enforcement when the need arises.[Ref the US blogger who was accosted STASI like at Dublin airport, and told not to write any more articles about a certain minister].Not to mind we can see under FOIA what sort of files are kept on us "subversives" [gun owners]by AGS and DOJ under the C4 dept.
However, it will never be done no doubt, because of the literal grave yards of skeletons that would fall out of closets in the Park and in ministerial offices, and no doubt the "few bad apples" line will be trotted out again on its well-worn path.Maybe one day when we elect someone who cares more about their country than their pockets....

gunny123

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

The simple thing to do now is simply disbanded the Garda Siochanna as a force and start again, as was recommended years ago by the Patten report. If the RUC could be disbanded and re-established as the PSNI in Northern Ireland the same can be done with AGS. This force has been too involved in the politics of this state since its foundation.All appointments above inspector are political and not merit based, there is no accountability and even the Garda Inspectorate has stated it gets little to no cooperation in investigations and is bypassed.
On the ground level, its morale is gone lower than its boots, and it seems it can be used by certain politicians as its own private security enforcement when the need arises.[Ref the US blogger who was accosted STASI like at Dublin airport, and told not to write any more articles about a certain minister].Not to mind we can see under FOIA what sort of files are kept on us "subversives" [gun owners]by AGS and DOJ under the C4 dept.
However, it will never be done no doubt, because of the literal grave yards of skeletons that would fall out of closets in the Park and in ministerial offices, and no doubt the "few bad apples" line will be trotted out again on its well-worn path.Maybe one day when we elect someone who cares more about their country than their pockets....

The political will is not there to do that Grizz, and an awful lot of ordinary people don't want to hear anything bad about the Guards.

But it is possible, look at the Met in London during the 60's and 70's, being cheek by jowel with the serious criminal gangs that emerged during those decades. The famous flying squad and Drury and the "Dirty squad" being prime examples. Impossible to tackle you would assume, but no it was done and the force straightened out.

The same with the NYPD and other American police forces, being involved in all sorts of criminality and being involved with the mob, again tackled and straightened out.

Grizzly 45

gunny123 wrote: »

The political will is not there to do that Grizz, and an awful lot of ordinary people don't want to hear anything bad about the Guards.

Unfortunately true, but then again people here didn't want to hear anything bad about the Catholic church and politicians either.As they "knew better than us!" It takes around 40 years for things to slowly change in Ireland, but they change.

The same with the NYPD and other American police forces, being involved in all sorts of criminality and being involved with the mob, again tackled and straightened out.

Indeed and you could put Garda Mc Cabe in the role of an Irish version of officer Serpico of the NYPD in the 1960s.What he had to go thru almost mirrors Garda Mc Cabes ordeals at the hands of his own corrupt colleagues and superiors.

gunny123

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Unfortunately true, but then again people here didn't want to hear anything bad about the Catholic church and politicians either.As they "knew better than us!" It takes around 40 years for things to slowly change in Ireland, but they change.

Its more that nothing happens when someone is pinched, How many times have you seen someone like Haughey/Lowrey caught red handed and nothing happens, in fact they might be allowed retire and wind up making more money from a bloated pension, while also sitting on boards a few days a month and getting handsome fees ?

Grizzly 45

True, Ireland badly needs a few "Madoff moments".IE we see some rich corrupt SOB being handcuffed and frog marched off to a squad car in full media view from his luxury office suite or mansion and being driven off at top speed to the local Garda station or court to be charged.
Until that happens we will always suffer from this "Them and us" attitude and rules in Irish society.
Unfortunately, there is something in our national psyche that seems to venerate the crook that screws us the most as a hero.The aforementioned crook from Drumcondra, obviously not content with his trousered millions is trying to get back into politics and has his beady eye and rat claws set on the Aras, and no doubt he will get it as well.:(

gunny123

The father used to say "When we got rid of John Bull from Ireland, Paddy Bull took over". Its a fact though, where the british left off, the irish took over and continued. A sense of entitlement and of being " a cut above" the rest of the population, justifying their massive salaries and perks. Just take a look at RTE. I'd be the happiest guy in Ireland if that kip was shut down.

Grizzly 45

Not being a great friend of all things communist or socialist.But James Connolly was right.He have swopped the Crown for the Harp and added the Euro star rulership for good measures and seem no better off than we were in 1900.Well maybe..I can now own a horse worth more than 3 pounds.

gunny123

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Not being a great friend of all things communist or socialist.But James Connolly was right.He have swopped the Crown for the Harp and added the Euro star rulership for good measures and seem no better off than we were in 1900.Well maybe..I can now own a horse worth more than 3 pounds.

Communists and socialists ? They are still about the place, never was the term "workers" more openly abused . I don't think they agree much with the private ownership of firearms, or anything else for that matter.

http://www.thejournal.ie/venezuela-protest-dublin-3540356-Aug2017/

gunny123

Chris Packham, BBC know-all and anti, sticks his foot in his gob over Grouse shooting.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/08/11/alert-saboteurs-urged-disrupt-glorious-twelfth/

gunny123

I'm so glad Dermot Ahern restricted and banned centrefire pistols, its done wonders for public safety around Dublin...............NOT.

Its like living in dodge city in the 1880's.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/crime/man-30-shot-dead-in-gangland-attack-was-locksmith-with-clean-record-36041416.html

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/pictured-woman-20-charged-over-gun-discovery-on-train-at-connolly-station-36040457.html

Cass

So, sh*t hitting the fan, scandal after scandal, force in disarray. What do you do?

Take an "extended leave of absence", look for a job in Europe, avoid all the scandals/investigations, and run off to a cushy job leaving the TDs that have such "confidence" in your abilities with an easy case of filling a vacated role rather than replace a sacked commissioner.

Grizzly 45

gunny123 wrote: »

I'm so glad Dermot Ahern restricted and banned centrefire pistols, its done wonders for public safety around Dublin...............NOT.

Its like living in dodge city in the 1880's.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/crime/man-30-shot-dead-in-gangland-attack-was-locksmith-with-clean-record-36041416.html

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/pictured-woman-20-charged-over-gun-discovery-on-train-at-connolly-station-36040457.html

But then again, that most disgusting export from Co Louth even said it at the time it wouldn't stop gun crime.It was him attempting to save us from a "US-style gun culture"[Whatever the Hell that is!]Guess that failed miserably, as Dublin resembles the south side of Chicago these days...The law abiding are prohibited from gun ownership, and only the criminals and cops have guns.

Cass

Was watching a report on SKY news about the Government having 20 million people on facial recognition. "People" are screaming blue murder.

It struck me as odd that those that have a Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Cloud, Blog/Vlog, SnapChat and a host of other social media accounts are angry about the Government having their private info on file.

Now i really don't understand how people, and while it may not be everyone, that broadcast their lives on an hourly basis for all to see have objections when someone/some organisation use info for security. Moreover its faces from the public, the same rights we hear everyone else with a smart phone cry when they video police and other Governmental departments during the course of their duties on public roads/areas.

I know the conspiracy theorists will be on about them accumulating dossiers on everyone, but FFS if they wanted to know more about people all they have to do is look at their Facebook page and find out where they are, what they are doing, what they are eating, when they took a sh*t, the name of their kids, dogs, parents, friends, the car they drive, etc, etc, etc.

Can someone explain to me what is the outrageous aspect of this against what is already done by each individual through social media. Or is it just the fact it's "Big Brother" doing it?

Sparks

Well;

• If you post your details, it's you who does it, by your choice. People get less annoyed by things they have a direct choice in, which they don't have with things like the Gardai in Clane (or advertisers in Dublin) sticking up cameras doing automatic facial recognition.
• If you do choose to post your details on facebook outside of the US, there are at least some laws governing the processing of that data, so things like automatic facial recognition are banned, you can have your details removed from web searches, and so on.
• Automatic facial recognition doesn't work on a "I have these two photos, are they the same person" principle, they only work on a mass surveillance principle. Meaning that if you deploy such a system, it is designed to track where and when everyone is, regardless of whether or not you're a suspect in some investigation or not. Apart from treating everyone like prey, that's a principle that's directly counter to the EU regulations on data protection (which outrank our laws).
• Automatic facial recognition doesn't work in general. At least not very well. You get false positives and false negatives all the time. Especially if you're from the darker end of the ronseal colour swatch. It's the same issue we saw with ballistic fingerprinting.
• We've already seen AGS admit that Gardai sold data from pulse to criminals; so how much is the information on whether or not you're at home worth to a burglar?
• Nobody's debated this ahead of time. Not in the Dail, not outside the Dail. It's like Regina Doherty announcing today that the Public Services Card is now mandatory and the moves to make it a national identity card without actually passing a single law to do so. In other words, Ministers making up the law as they go along, while ignoring existing law (so, show up with your driving licence or your passport and it doesn't count as ID anymore, you need your biometric, linked-to-your-phone, tied-to-your-medical-records PSC instead). It's like Dunne-v-Donohue never happened...

Cass

Sparks wrote: »

• If you post your details, it's you who does it, by your choice. People get less annoyed by things they have a direct choice in, which they don't have with things like the Gardai in Clane (or advertisers in Dublin) sticking up cameras doing automatic facial recognition.

So i'm right in what i said above about the outrage coming from such actions being done by someone other than themselves?

• If you do choose to post your details on facebook outside of the US, there are at least some laws governing the processing of that data, so things like automatic facial recognition are banned, you can have your details removed from web searches, and so on.

How true is that?

You often hear the term "once it's out there it can never be taken back". Is it really gone or just gone from the public view and still held on some server somewhere. Again taking into account i'm not a card carrying member of the tin foil hat brigade.

• Automatic facial recognition doesn't work on a "I have these two photos, are they the same person" principle, they only work on a mass surveillance principle. Meaning that if you deploy such a system, it is designed to track where and when everyone is, regardless of whether or not you're a suspect in some investigation or not. Apart from treating everyone like prey, that's a principle that's directly counter to the EU regulations on data protection (which outrank our laws).

While not facial recognition, is the same thing not applicable to CCTV. Between city CCTV, bank ATMS, toll bridges, company/businesses, etc, etc, you are estimated to have been recorded, on average, up to 20 times per day. How many of those times are you aware you have been? Does Data protection not cover this? I assume it does and the place that has recorded you must store that info correctly or delete it.

• Automatic facial recognition doesn't work in general. At least not very well. You get false positives and false negatives all the time. Especially if you're from the darker end of the ronseal colour swatch. It's the same issue we saw with ballistic fingerprinting.

No great surprise there. CSI effect makes people believe you can get a "match" from the reflection of a face in the head of screw.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qAvUFD68NEQ

• We've already seen AGS admit that Gardai sold data from pulse to criminals; so how much is the information on whether or not you're at home worth to a burglar?

I have not heard of this. I heard about members of AGS using PULSE as their own personal FB to check on people, but actually selling the info!!.

• Nobody's debated this ahead of time. Not in the Dail, not outside the Dail. It's like Regina Doherty announcing today that the Public Services Card is now mandatory and the moves to make it a national identity card without actually passing a single law to do so. In other words, Ministers making up the law as they go along, while ignoring existing law (so, show up with your driving licence or your passport and it doesn't count as ID anymore, you need your biometric, linked-to-your-phone, tied-to-your-medical-records PSC instead). It's like Dunne-v-Donohue never happened...

Not the first time we have something that was implemented without debate, forethought or the infrastructure to make sure it works.

I must check out that statement by Doherty. For months they have claimed it's not a national ID card, which anyone with half a brain can see is a lie, but i've been reading a few stories/accounts of people being refused payments and benefits unless they signed up to it. The most recent being an OAP having her pension withheld for the last 18 months because she refused the card. Illegal, but it's being done.

Sparks

Cass wrote: »

So i'm right in what i said above about the outrage coming from such actions being done by someone other than themselves?

I'd imagine that it's a very large part of it. I mean, there are other reasons as well - like the systems not working, assuming everyone's a criminal and so on - but as with when we have those reactions over firearms law, most people don't share them.

How true is that?
You often hear the term "once it's out there it can never be taken back". Is it really gone or just gone from the public view and still held on some server somewhere. Again taking into account i'm not a card carrying member of the tin foil hat brigade.

Not sure. I've never worked anywhere that would risk that - the financial penalties in the EU under the GDPR are substantial enough to make the risk unacceptable - but I couldn't say if they were or not.

While not facial recognition, is the same thing not applicable to CCTV. Between city CCTV, bank ATMS, toll bridges, company/businesses, etc, etc, you are estimated to have been recorded, on average, up to 20 times per day. How many of those times are you aware you have been? Does Data protection not cover this? I assume it does and the place that has recorded you must store that info correctly or delete it.

It does, but facial recognition goes beyond CCTV; there's a difference between a single place where you can get a full list of where and when anyone was in the last few years and several hundred CCTV sites which in general only keep data for a couple of weeks and which you'd have to sit and watch manually to spot someone.

No great surprise there. CSI effect makes people believe you can get a "match" from the reflection of a face in the head of screw.

Yup, exactly the same phenomenon.

I have not heard of this. I heard about members of AGS using PULSE as their own personal FB to check on people, but actually selling the info!!.

http://web.archive.org/web/20091016223101/http://www.tribune.ie/news/article/2009/oct/11/garda-suspected-of-selling-secret-data-to-criminal/
http://www.herald.ie/news/gardai-line-up-17-officers-for-quizzing-over-leaks-to-don-27929372.html

It's been sold on to various other crowds, but that's probably the worst in that it was being sold to criminals. In the other cases it was insurance agencies or private detective firms.

Not the first time we have something that was implemented without debate, forethought or the infrastructure to make sure it works.

True

I must check out that statement by Doherty. For months they have claimed it's not a national ID card, which anyone with half a brain can see is a lie, but i've been reading a few stories/accounts of people being refused payments and benefits unless they signed up to it. The most recent being an OAP having her pension withheld for the last 18 months because she refused the card. Illegal, but it's being done.

Not just withheld; actually taken away, unrecoverable.

Doherty made her statement on Newstalk FM this morning.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/regina-doherty-says-public-services-card-now-mandatory-for-welfare-1.3198024

Cass

On the aspect of facial recognition, is it not a useful tool however limited it may be?

We don't like it when some "pencil pusher" that never owned or held a firearm introduces a law that makes life harder for us, but we (the shooting community) are a known quantity and easily traced. However with spate of attacks and terrorist activities such a system would be useful if not vital in tracing someone's whereabouts and monitoring them.

The issue you mention above about treating everyone as a criminal is true, but also a necessity (at least in my opinion). The various agencies responsible for our safety and security don't always know who the "enemy" is so such systems of surveillance can have their uses. It goes back to the same argument, that we all hate and argue against, used against firearm owners. If banning all guns saves one life its worth it. Well if such measures, that are electronically intrusive and not physically, help are they not worth it?

Grizzly 45

"Especially if you're from the darker end of the ronseal colour swatch.":D:D:D:D:D

Good job I had the anti splatter screen up on my machine when I read that Sparks.

"However with a spate of attacks and terrorist activities such a system would be useful if not vital in tracing someone's whereabouts and monitoring them."
"For every trick there is a trick to it."[Old African Zulu saying] The people we are fighting against are nobody's fools. They could have a mosque worth of terrorists walking about our streets waving at CCTVs and facial recognition every hour and there would be damn all use to us.They know we are using this technology against them ,but so long as they do nothing illegal or break any pattern of normal behaviour you just have Big brother reality show footage.. You can have as much footage and CCTV going, but once one pulls out a knife yelling Aloha snack bar in a public place its useless against a self-radicalised lone wolf attack
.Did you know there are now more CCTV cameras and in some cases directional mikes in London than there is in the entire Communist Chinese capital of Bejing?? Did it stop the London bus bombs?Westminister bridge even on the London underground did it get rid of the buskers? [Famous pic of one lad defying it by sitting directly under the CCTV camera and warning sign playing away] As it stands at the moment it is a very crude surveillance tool, that has a placebo effect on the population,and is great for catching drunken yobs and petty crime, but against a full blown terror attack...Well you'll have better footage for the SKY/CNN other daily BS suppliers.Untill we get to a totally chipped "minority report" big brother society with one stuck in every room in your house,which I hopefully wont live to see..Then it will be very effective and much to late for us all then.

Sparks

Well, useful is a dangerous word with these things; for example, it's "useful" to have a ballistic fingerprinting system because you can point to a conviction obtained with such a system in Maryland. It's just that in context, that's one conviction after several years of it being deployed, costing millions every year, with huge numbers of false negatives and false positives, and earning the ire of the police department who were calling for its enforced retirement.

Facial recognition just isn't much better. Yes, you might well get a few hits; but you'll swamp those out in false positives and you'll miss all the hits you should have gotten. "Useful" stops being a useful word under those circumstances (pardon the irony).

I mean, with the rising level of terrorist attacks, any backbencher TD could argue that we should just confiscate all firearms on the gounds that that would be "useful".

Actually, I think one did, back in 1972...

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

"Especially if you're from the darker end of the ronseal colour swatch.":D:D:D:D:D

Good job I had the anti splatter screen up on my machine when I read that Sparks.

I wasn't kidding:



Turns out, if most programmers are pasty white nerds, they'll test their software on their own faces first and miss things. Like skin coming in a range of colours...

Cass

Whats the alternative? not looking to solve the world's security problems, but computers are not reliable, neither are people. They are flawed, and corrupt.

The reports we hear on the news about suspected and actual terrorists moving freely among EU countries would wonder why the feck we have a security council at all or more accurately what are they doing other than living large and using the fear of terrorism to gain more in the way of funding.

Sparks

Cass wrote: »

Whats the alternative? not looking to solve the world's security problems, but computers are not reliable, neither are people. They are flawed, and corrupt.

Well, not making the problem worse by getting us all to live in a panopticon before we have even a single attack here would be a good idea, at least in my opinion.

Actually funding police instead of the ****e we have now where there's no oversight, no funding, laws being written every few days because TDs can't think of anything else to try; that might be worth a try.

Plus, I don't really trust the image being portrayed on the 24 hour news cycle. You'd think the western world was the target if you did that (in fact, we've seen about 2% of the attacks and 1% of the casualties).

Besides, we've seen several attacks (like, say, 9/11) where the attackers were known to the police, were on lists, had had everyone up to family members calling in ahead of time to say they were worried, and nothing got done, so how would facial recognition help if the police can't stop an attack when they have the names of the attackers already?

I mean, I've seen the Manchester police pleading with then-Home-Secretary Theresa May to not cut off funding from their community policing work lest it trigger something like the Manchester bombing that happened a few years later:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irm2VZMDEvo

Her response was to publicly denounce them as scaremongering. And she kept doing that for several years.

It seems to be a pattern - you gut funding for a service, it comes back to bite us a few years later.

In counterpoint, they didn't gut the funding in London; they had the SAS on London Bridge embedded with armed police in eight minutes after the London Bridge attack. And if they hadn't gutted funding for intelligence services, that attack might not have happened in the first place (which, honestly, I'd prefer over the whole SAS rah-rah-rah approach, but that's another can of worms).

Instead, we're talking about deploying a commercial facial recognition system in Clane (and using mobile phones instead of secured communications links and the sales pitch is all "cloud" this and "apps" that which engenders as much confidence as snake oil usually does).

I mean. Clane. Come on. It's not exactly a high-profile soft target for dissident republicans, is it?

yubabill1

Absolutely agree on the security funding bit.

Governments will seek any alternative before spending funds and then go for one or two rungs below the cheapest option.

CCTV has been seen by a lot of people as a cheap replacement for police on the ground.

Grizzly 45

It would also help if some jobs worthies would engage brains before engaging gob. Bright ideas like banning online door deliveries of knives in the UK or requesting further information and details before people go and hire large vans springs to mind.:rolleyes:

Cass

Cass wrote: »

I must check out that statement by Doherty. .

Jaysus has this woman no shame.

Considering her actions with her failed businesses, followed by the events involving an Gardaí issuing a caution to a reporter who, i'd imagine Regina sees it as, "dared" to question her [Regina Doherty], then her latest actions with seemingly illegal and subversive national identification card.


Seen her on the news this evening behind the unelected taoiseach, nodding along approvingly, along with the rest of the crony brigade.

How can people in this country sit back and take this sh*t. They care about supposed social justice issues (don't make me laugh, when you add anything before the word justice the word no longer relates to justice) such as having 50 genders, or tearing down statues than a sneaky national id card that will have us being stopped and questioned and tracked just like the facial recognition issue above.

Take your head out your arses people and cop on to what is important before you wake up and realise that while you can choose to "identify as a unicorn" you have no pension, medical services and scandal after scandal is going unreported and ignored.

Sparks

Um... DRI kindof have been at this for a year or so now, a bunch of the data privacy wonks have been writing about it for at least two years, and now we're finally starting to see the origins of cases that could go to court, I think we're going to start seeing some of the social justice solicitors get their teeth into it, and they have a nasty habit of ripping the absolute arse out of much scarier groups than the Irish government.