Off Topic Chat. (MOD NOTE post# 3949 and post#5279)

Grizzly 45

Savage93 wrote: »

Sorry Grizz your facts are wrong on this one.
1. not Kerry but Barna , Co. Limerick
2. Not INLA but local Provos who did indeed switch to banks and post office robberies as a result of army escorts on large CIT deliveries. Indeed some of these were involved in the Adare murder of Gerry Mc Cabe almost 20 years after.
3.No army presence at robbery, Army escorts only commenced after, and as a recspnse to, this robbery.
4. No troops were disarmed by these thugs are there were no troops present at this robbery ( only unarmed Gardai but I stand to be corrected on this.)

Absolutely correct, :)was quoting from memor y,although I do recall the INLA claiming it as one of theirs?

Uinseann_16

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

There you go!IF you can get a full auto Class3 in the US
https://www.armsunlimited.com/Heckler-Koch-MP7A1-PDW-4-6x30mm-Submachine-Gun-p/hk-mp7a1.htm

And this is why not it wont be built in semi auto ...Apart from HK's customer service motto of "Fk you, we hate our customers!":P
https://www.guns.com/2012/09/17/hak-semi-automatic-mp7-market-viability

Do H&K really hate their civvi customers or is that just an internet myth?:D
In the US their selling the MR556,MR762 and the USC(civvi ump) so maybe their just not bothered with the mp7 because of the issues raised in your link?

Grizzly 45

Uinseann_16 wrote: »

I thought that would've been just because they were available? Maybe the full auto carry comes from hand me downs from militaries, after ww2 there were huge amounts of surplus and police took advantage of all the equipment they could get?

Proably,but the idea of a militarised police force is definitely a Prussian concept. Post Armstice 1918 Germany was in chaos,you had returning troops coming home in a fully intact and functional,albeit very battle weary army. The Kaiser had run off to Holland,Berlin and Munich were declaring as Soviets,starvation,and other paramilitary groups abounded.And that's not even dealing with the international situation.So yes there was plenty of everything available to just about everyone of any political hue.
Post ww2 certainly too. German police in Bavaria were issued M1 carbines and were in some cases still using un issued MP44s.

Grizzly 45

Uinseann_16 wrote: »

Do H&K really hate their civvi customers or is that just an internet myth?:D

Jury is out on that one,although they do seem to have a "German" attitude to customer service alright.:) Maybe that grinds American gears?:D

ED E

While I totally agree that you don't want AGS spraying 556 into Henry Street what alternative are you suggesting? Detectives etc carry sidearms but specialist units everywhere use SMGs (or BTP who have feckin armalites for tube stations.....). When you're looking at PDWs its MP7, MP9, P90 or machine pistols hoses like an M11/Uzi. Should we spend extra to have customized units with the FA feature removed? Maybe.

AFAIK we trust the PDF with AUGs with two part triggers which have a far larger risk of accidental auto, if they can manage that then you would hope AGS can train to push the selector to the first stop (the click is significant, you'll know when its changed position to single fire).

Grizzly 45

It's a difficult one alright EDE. Because AGS as such is still an "unarmed police force" insomuch as the first on the scene police officers are going to be unarmed, and unfortunately not going to be able to do much to contain an armed situation. They have to wait for the ASU to arrive, whenever, depending on how close one is.be it Europe or the US at least your officers are armed and can start responding there and then and have either a patrol carbine or riot gun. Although I don't know even in the EU what the protocol for being able to use the SMG straight away?I'd assume you need someone higher up to authorise it on FA??

Maybe something along the line of a compact Browning or Remington-style deer rifle type design? Decent calibre, capable of AP rounds, semi-auto, pull the trigger fast enough you can put enough rounds downrange if needed.Hi cap mag, and doesn't look military, black gun scary, in these PC snowflake times?

Uinseann_16

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

It's a difficult one alright EDE. Because AGS as such is still an "unarmed police force" insomuch as the first on the scene police officers are going to be unarmed, and unfortunately not going to be able to do much to contain an armed situation. They have to wait for the ASU to arrive, whenever, depending on how close one is.be it Europe or the US at least your officers are armed and can start responding there and then and have either a patrol carbine or riot gun. Although I don't know even in the EU what the protocol for being able to use the SMG straight away?I'd assume you need someone higher up to authorise it on FA??

Maybe something along the line of a compact Browning or Remington-style deer rifle type design? Decent calibre, capable of AP rounds, semi-auto, pull the trigger fast enough you can put enough rounds downrange if needed.Hi cap mag, and doesn't look military, black gun scary, in these PC snowflake times?

Maybe Ruger mini-14s i think french police used them and so did the police in northern Ireland in the past. with a walnut wood stock they dont look too military like. Also theres no need for AP rounds when using a 5.56/.223 they will defeat iiia body armour with standard fmj rounds;).

ED E

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

They have to wait for the ASU to arrive, whenever, depending on how close one is.

My understanding is they don't. The figure I've heard is 30%. You'll have a detective available within each division that'll be closer than the ASU if you're out in the sticks. One would hope that the majority of calls would be sufficiently controlled by two detectives with sidearms.

Grizzly 45

Uinseann_16 wrote: »

Maybe Ruger mini-14s i think french police used them and so did the police in northern Ireland in the past. with a walnut wood stock they dont look too military like. Also there's no need for AP rounds when using a 5.56/.223 they will defeat iiia body armour with standard fmj rounds;).

The French make a copy of the Mini14 and the RUC version was I think the select fire version AC556?

Here would be my contender,with a solid butt folding stock.20 round mag. [Aimed shots count,not near misses with a SMG]slightly shorter barrel.Think that design would serve very well.

https://stateofguns.com/fnar-a-hunting-rifle-turned-badass-417/

Savage93

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

The French make a copy of the Mini14 and the RUC version was I think the select fire version AC556?

Here would be my contender,with a solid butt folding stock.20 round mag. [Aimed shots count,not near misses with a SMG]slightly shorter barrel.Think that design would serve very well.

https://stateofguns.com/fnar-a-hunting-rifle-turned-badass-417/

The main plus for SMG PDW tyoes rather than rifles ( Gardai also use HK416 and Remington 700s) for easy inconspicuous carry rather than visible deterrent(ASU RSU) for plain clothes cops.

Grizzly 45

From experience, nothing inconspicuous or easily carried when it comes to SMGs.:) Well, maybe if you Schwarzneggers build. Try fitting even a micro Uzi or an Ingram in a shoulder rig under a jacket and you look...Well odd. You still have to carry it in a tote bag or a large man bag. Both methods are not very quick to deploy either. Lugging it about in the HK thigh holster kind of destroys the concealability factor as well.:) If you need concealability and a reason to get lots of ammo down range,then something like a Glock 18[select fire version] or Beretta 93R with a "Cop Stock" or a telescoping stock would be alot more concealable under a jacket than a PDW.Trouble is ,they need alot of practise ro shoot well,but ultra concealable.

gunny123

Our glorious leader pissed as a fart :rolleyes:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVrpYTZMBcM

Grizzly 45

Our Dear Leaders "sciatica" is acting up again...:rolleyes::rolleyes:

BattleCorp

Sparks wrote: »

Yes. Because the drug gangs aren't supposed to be looking out for the well-being of the public, while the armed garda units are. Also, the armed gardai's tools are bought with public money, so frankly, whether we're buying the best tools for the job is something the public are allowed to question, and "best" in this case is not a metric set solely by the Gardai. We, the backstop, are part of that metric as well, so things like accuracy and over-penetration and the safety of the general public are factors.

While I am not disagreeing with you, I do find it gas that people here are questioning the suitability of the Gardaí's choice of firearms yet go mad when the Gardaí question the suitability of our firearms for target shooting.

Grizzly 45

BattleCorp wrote: »

While I am not disagreeing with you, I do find it gas that people here are questioning the suitability of the Gardaí's choice of firearms yet go mad when the Gardaí question the suitability of our firearms for target shooting.

Maybe its just nice to see the preachy and sanctimonious ones who claim "mere civilians shouldn't be allowed to own combat handguns or assault rifles,which are only suitable for ELITE military or police forces" fall headfirst flat into the mud puddle,and then roll around in it on a basic mistake, that they are probably making worse by blaming it on equipment failure and traffic conditions that would cost us mere civilians a lot in firearms ownership?

Uinseann_16

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

From experience, nothing inconspicuous or easily carried when it comes to SMGs.:) Well, maybe if you Schwarzneggers build. Try fitting even a micro Uzi or an Ingram in a shoulder rig under a jacket and you look...Well odd. You still have to carry it in a tote bag or a large man bag. Both methods are not very quick to deploy either. Lugging it about in the HK thigh holster kind of destroys the concealability factor as well.:) If you need concealability and a reason to get lots of ammo down range,then something like a Glock 18[select fire version] or Beretta 93R with a "Cop Stock" or a telescoping stock would be alot more concealable under a jacket than a PDW.Trouble is ,they need alot of practise ro shoot well,but ultra concealable.

Why not something like the FN-57 , was just looking at the HK 4.6x30 and at NATO trials the 5.7x28 was thought to be the superior option they gardai could get P90s and 5-7 pistols and maintain one caliber?

gunny123

How to get a tactical beard to match your .300 super dooper magnum, your shades, your 2.5-500 x 75 infra-red ninja scope, and your special forces military record (your father was in the FCA).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzsTgMCfdBk

Grizzly 45

All Comrades are now permitted to reload their own ammunition if they have a valid permit for rifles and shotguns. Not bad for a place that is a quasi dictatorship and gun ownership is a pretty difficult feat.

Meantime here in a constitutional republic.....[Tumbleweeed rolls by]

http://kremlin.ru/acts/news/58057

gunny123

https://www.dw.com/en/reichsbürger-and-neo-nazis-infiltrating-thuringia-gun-clubs/a-40780750

Grizzly 45

I'd take Deutsche Welle about as seriously nowadays about anything related to firearms as believable as any other MSM outlet.IE not very...

Reichburger are about as believable and successful as the "Freemen of the land " types over here in Ireland and the UK with their claims. That they are infiltrating gun clubs is an utter nonsense,as it is not a proscribed organisation or belif in Germany. Lumping it in with neo-Nazism is just the German states way of claiming these are "right-wing extremists."

Also, contrary to much belief, being a neo-nazi is not illegal in Germany either. Disseminating openly the belief of holocaust denial,supporting Hitler and the Nazi ideals supporting or being a member of a proscribed neo-nazi organisation,or displaying the Hiller salute or Swastika is.
Thuringia, hardly surprising either...All the nutters come from there.

Grizzly 45

Here is a better article from the Frankfurter Allegemine on the Reich citizens in Hessen.

The trouble with these crackpots is that one of their own shot a policeman and two ambulance men a few years ago, and that they say they don't believe in the German Federal Republic...So how can they possess arms then under its laws??

Ergo, if you are going to ignore the state that registers your arms.It might be prudent not to go violently jabbing your thumb in its eye.Especially,going and wave your legally held guns around the place defending the national frontier of your front garden from the invading neighbours.

http://www.faz.net/aktuell/rhein-main/hessen-entwaffnet-reichsbuerger-15697969.html

Cass

A truly tragic accident and will most likely push those on the sidelines over whether to demand licenses for air rifles into the "yes" side.

Steve

Cass wrote: »

A truly tragic accident and will most likely push those on the sidelines over whether to demand licenses for air rifles into the "yes" side.

Different limits in UK. 7JME (I think) as opposed to 1JME here before it's considered a firearm.

Theory is 1JME cannot do harm or pierce (in theory) an eyeball.

Cass

I was referring to the UK as that is where this happened and as all air rifles/pistols must be licensed here the subject is moot from an Irish perspective.

Anything under 1 joule (0.75ft/lb) is a toy.

The legal limit in the UK is 12ft/lb (16 joules) for rifles and 6ft/lb (8 joules) for pistols. Anything under those limits are not classed as firearms and don't require licenses.

There has been a lot of debate recently about licensing them and this tragedy may just push those undecided over the line. I don't want to be the one that politicizes this and i won't offer an opinion either way as any outcome will have no effect on me. Its the reason i stuck my post in the off topic thread rather than in the main forum.

gunny123

In scotland, rab c sturgeon has already changed the law to make all airguns licencable.

Grizzly 45

Not that many are complying with it apparently.TBH it is scary to see despite them having many more shooters and organisations, how badly the UK is handling this whole proposed firearms legislation.

Watching this on a FB group, and while the message seems to be getting thru to some MP's about 50 cals and MARS rifles, shooters are getting back standardised replies about how "the police and military experts" think these rifles "could be" used by terrorists and criminals. Obvious as day that people who are ignorant on a topic are going to believe official "experts" rather than those affected.

Despite the fact that MARS rifles are ideally suited to some disabled shooters,it seems to fly over some wooden-headed MPs,especially those who support people with disabilities.

Nor are they being helped by their own side.BASC applauded the ban on "bump stocks" in the UK. Despite them having nothing legal in the UK to fire them with in the first place, and NO they won't work on .22 semi-autos.
If you have organisations like that...:rolleyes:

Worse the UK Fudds are out in force as well, calling for licensing of airguns in the UK after this tragedy. It seems Britan wants to get rid of just about everything firearm related in civillian hands these days too.

tac foley

Quote from the Hunts Post of July 25th 2018 - local rag for much of Northern Cambridgeshire - 'Newly-released figures from the Home Office show that that in March this year, there were 10,181 licensed firearms in the area [Cambridgeshire], up from 7,287 in 2009. The number excludes shotguns, which are licensed separately....an increase in 28%......3,022 valid firearms licenses in Cambridgeshire covered an average of 3.4 guns each...There were a further 29,883 licensed shotguns in the county - a slight decrease on a decade ago'.

tac

gunny123

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

It seems Britan wants to get rid of just about everything firearm related in civillian hands these days too.

I do believe you are correct about that, the trouble is though, you have London now with a higher murder rate than New York, and a lot of UK cities not far behind in terms of violent crimes, acid throwing (a three year old in a buggy the other day), stabbings, beatings, shootings etc, while the police's budgets have been cut to the bone.

There was one of these fly on the wall programmes on last week, in which they follow the police around, and they were clearly barely in control, some things like Burglaries, they simply don't get to on the day its reported, forensics only work 9-5, and if you are the victim of theft, you get a crime number for your insurance and thats the end of it.

The thin blue line is getting ever thinner, and thats why i reckon they are afraid of either civil unrest or people taking the law into their own hands.

gunny123

tac foley wrote: »

Quote from the Hunts Post of July 25th 2018 - local rag for much of Northern Cambridgeshire - 'Newly-released figures from the Home Office show that that in March this year, there were 10,181 licensed firearms in the area [Cambridgeshire], up from 7,287 in 2009. The number excludes shotguns, which are licensed separately....an increase in 28%......3,022 valid firearms licenses in Cambridgeshire covered an average of 3.4 guns each...There were a further 29,883 licensed shotguns in the county - a slight decrease on a decade ago'.

tac

Good to see you posting again Tac.

Grizzly 45

gunny123 wrote: »

I

The thin blue line is getting ever thinner, and thats why i reckon they are afraid of either civil unrest or people taking the law into their own hands.

Hardly surprising as many of the UK police forces have lost the hearts&minds of the population years ago too.How could you support any force that is either orderd,or so politically indoctrinated to arrest people for displaying the Union Jack in their capital,but allows the religion of peace to go about with signs advocating beheading unbelievers.

Cass

Gavin Duffy throwing his hat into the ring for President. Already coming under fire for his role in hunting.

gunny123

This story would make a fantastic film.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dsvA0UkdRuw

Grizzly 45

Or this one? Would think there is enough stories out there to keep Hollywoo in business with original ideas for decades,without having to churn out CGI rich,pee poor storyline lunkers every year, or remakes of remakes.

gunny123

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/01/us/3d-guns-printing.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=first-column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news

Uinseann_16

gunny123 wrote: »

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/01/us/3d-guns-printing.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=first-column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news

Did he not win a massive lawsuit the beginning of last month against the state department how is a judge able to block it again despite him already winning in court? Its just delaying tactic i guess he'll win again

Cass

Seen on the news that he already published them online. It's done regardless of the court decision.

Grizzly 45

And it's not "all plastic" as wrongly claimed in the media.it still needs a steel barrel insert,and two or three steel pins for the trigger and hammer to work off.

Nekarsulm

His ideas about BitCoin and other Crypto-Currencies threatening a Governments ability to tax the citizen must worry the US more than the 3D printing of guns.

Grizzly 45

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mtBzIPhwLZc

Uinseann_16

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mtBzIPhwLZc

I dont own a shotgun but that clay range makes me wanna try clay shooting:P
Also it just hit me that simulator would be legal here since im pretty sure hes using a airsoft gun, which just stumps me as to why practical shooting is gone here when things like that would be ok :rolleyes:

Cass

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

And it's not "all plastic" as wrongly claimed in the media.it still needs a steel barrel insert,and two or three steel pins for the trigger and hammer to work off.

Yup,.

Seen that on SKY news. They showed as "AR". The upper was an 80% and all metal, not something you 3d print. It was, clearly, milled on a CNC. At almost 55,000 psi i wouldn't be putting any 223 round or bigger into a "plastic" gun mere inches from my face. Its not even a one shot rifle.

not to mention as you said the barrel, firing pin, etc. all have to be metal. The only thing that looked 3D printed was the hand guard, grip, and stock. All of which are plastic options as it is.

Same for the "handgun". A 9m can get to about 35,000psi, even a 22lr can be as high as 20,000 psi although 24,000 is the maximum its rated for. My point is how much pressure can a plastic gun handle? Secondly how accurate is it, can it fire multiple shots, etc, etc.

This is the same noise i've heard time and again about "Ghost guns" and once again it seems to be a big nothing burger.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJmFEv6BHM0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HI9tov6A2DI

gunny123

What the anti-gunners say does not actually have to be true, it just has to please those that support them. Plenty of buzz-words, and how deadly they are, we have all heard the claims that would leave you with your head in your hands.

gunny123

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mtBzIPhwLZc

When i win the euro-millions i'll build a place like that, it would be on my own private bond-villain-esq island though, not this dreary kip of country :P

Grizzly 45

Uinseann_16 wrote: »

Also, it just hit me that simulator would be legal here since I'm pretty sure he's using an airsoft gun, which just stumps me as to why practical shooting is gone here when things like that would be ok: rolleyes:

Nope,called SIMUNITION or CINESHOT,its a very reduced powder charge, almost just your percussion cap and a wax bullet head on the SIMUNITION. It allows you to use your personal firearm for this type of shooting. The Germans are using it nowadays for practising running shots and the like in their hunting license test.

https://rws-munition.de/rws-sportschuetzen-bereich/rws-sportmunition/rws-buechsenpatronen-fuer-den-sportschuetzen/Product/cineshot.html

Uinseann_16

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Nope,called SIMUNITION or CINESHOT,its a very reduced powder charge, almost just your percussion cap and a wax bullet head on the SIMUNITION. It allows you to use your personal firearm for this type of shooting. The Germans are using it nowadays for practising running shots and the like in their hunting license test.

https://rws-munition.de/rws-sportschuetzen-bereich/rws-sportmunition/rws-buechsenpatronen-fuer-den-sportschuetzen/Product/cineshot.html

Oh i thought the anemic look and sound of the pistol firing was because it was airsoft:o
Ive seen videos on simunition before kinda like paintball on steroids:D I dont think we'd be considered trustworthy enough to practice running shots like you are saying its being used for in Germany. I can just imagine a garda looking up videos of simunition "i dont like the look ah dem yokes " would be an understatemet:eek::D

Grizzly 45

Cass wrote: »

Yup,.

Seen that on SKY news. They showed as "AR". ....

No doubt they were semi-full automatics as well.:rolleyes: The simple fact is you can make the AR lower out a hunk of WOOD too. Its not a pressure bearing part,and as you rightly said,as of yet you cant 3d print a barrel or upper, or bolt carrier or bolt out of a 3D printer.
Yes, we know all about the 1911A1 that was printed out of some exotic metal powder with a 190 thousand dollar laser 3d printing machine.The 1911 only cost about 8thousand dollars to make in that process. :rolleyes:

So we can be assured Tyrone and Dindu[surname Nuthin] local hood rats and gang bangas, are going to go get a hundred thousand dollar 3d laser printer,a bunch of exotic metal powder at probably a few thousand dollars a kilo.

Go learn computer programming and CAD to produce AR15 lowers and all the component parts for various firearm parts favoured by gang bangas and sell them to their fellow hood rats? When could they just go and steal them a lot easier? Sounds plausible:rolleyes: alright...

Grizzly 45

Uinseann_16 wrote: »

don't think we'd be considered trustworthy enough to practice running shots like you are saying its being used for in Germany.

Going to be a bummer if we ever get wild boar enmasse in Ireland then. They are usually shot on drives, and you learn how to lead and be quick on the trigger there. You need 6out of 10 to pass that part of the hunting test over there in that phase alone. Always wondered why people here were so shocked or amazed when I told them I have shot deer on the hoof here. It's just part &parcel of the test and real-life hunting over there in some cases and situations.:)

Uinseann_16

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Going to be a bummer if we ever get wild boar enmasse in Ireland then. They are usually shot on drives, and you learn how to lead and be quick on the trigger there. You need 6out of 10 to pass that part of the hunting test over there in that phase alone. Always wondered why people here were so shocked or amazed when I told them I have shot deer on the hoof here. It's just part &parcel of the test and real-life hunting over there in some cases and situations.:)

Some lads have a knack for it ive seen it done here:P lads who shoot alot of foxes generally are very quick at getting a round on a moving target and it translates over to deer quite well imo. Its just not something lads consider here if the deer etc isnt dead still most lads wouldnt dream of shooting but theres also lads who wont shoot past 100 yards though:p
ive shot running hares before when they were only visible in tall grass as they were moving and their heads bobbed above the grass and its a bas!erd to do i dont know if id try it on a deer yet ive nowhere near enough rounds through my 308 to be that comfortable

Nekarsulm

Has any journalist even a rudimentary knowledge of what they write about?
This article and photo has been in many media publications this last few days, so can we assume the Gardai are having a laugh by describing it as a Luger pistol?

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/two-arrested-after-garda-vehicles-rammed-gun-seized-in-limerick-1.3581902%3Fmode%3Damp&ved=2ahUKEwiw-Pv__83cAhXJcsAKHdXZB8IQqUMwAXoECAkQCg&usg=AOvVaw1t4YDEQXw71o_Erz93LW4C&ampcf=1

BattleCorp

Nekarsulm wrote: »

Has any journalist even a rudimentary knowledge of what they write about?
This article and photo has been in many media publications this last few days, so can we assume the Gardai are having a laugh by describing it as a Luger pistol?

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/two-arrested-after-garda-vehicles-rammed-gun-seized-in-limerick-1.3581902%3Fmode%3Damp&ved=2ahUKEwiw-Pv__83cAhXJcsAKHdXZB8IQqUMwAXoECAkQCg&usg=AOvVaw1t4YDEQXw71o_Erz93LW4C&ampcf=1

Jaysus, how long was that pistol buried in a bog before they dug it up?