Off Topic Chat. (MOD NOTE post# 3949 and post#5279)

gunny123

Cass wrote: »

They are saying the sick bastard that carried out the attacks in law vegas was anti Trump and a member/supporter of antifa (the left wing nutjob association) and it was heralded as their [antifa's] opening salvo in a "Civil War".

Way too early to start speculating, but if you think they are not capable of thinking like that well look what a "nice", "polite", "peace loving" lefty said only hours after the attack.

Like Ryan, Hamilton, Bird et al, they will never really know why it happened. Someone who's life has veered off track, feeling a grudge towards society in general and wallop, a spree killing.

Am i the only one here who fears waking up one morning to a news flash of someone committing a shooting atrocity here ?

Cass

Sparks wrote: »

That one is one of the known fake stories Cass : http://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/02/business/las-vegas-shooting-fake-news.html

I don't believe anything, except the person responsible is a sick coward, as it's too early to know and the story is still unfolding. However i sure as chips won't be taking the NYTimes, Snopes, CBS, CNN or any other medias word that he wasn't associated to any group. If it turns out he wasn't then so be it as it won't change what happened nor my opinion of such a person.

The same "sources" have lied in the past and have a true left wing agenda and that includes Snopes, the so called fact checker website.

TBH now is not the time for politics and it sickens me that once again with the situation still being investigated, and very few facts available that the usual brigade have already started politicizing this for their own end.

I've watched reports from CNN, SKY News, and other media outlets and the hyper sensationalism being trotted out is unbelievable. I'm not talking small, pedantic issues, but honest to God exaggerations and simply blowing things out of proportions. One reporter from SKY news said the "gunman" was using military grade equipment such as a bipod and scope. Another "reporter" said the weapons used had a rate of fire of over 2,000 rounds per minute.

This causes people to believe such things and leaves us with an uphill battle at best or truly horrible legislation at worse. Think of the 5 round mag limit on 22 pistols here or the mag limit the EU just brought in.

In short they are blaming whole sections of society for the actions of a few or in this case a single individual.

gunny123 wrote: »

Someone who's life has veered off track, feeling a grudge towards society in general and wallop, a spree killing.

That is the key point. You cannot legislate for the unpredictable.

I hesitate to use the term unpredictable for such a tragedy but no amount of legislation can prevent it. To eliminate any possible future tragedies you need to ban lorries, guns, knives, vans, limit internet content, censor TV, control media, etc, etc. IOW you'd want something between North Korea and Honduras where civilian rights and gun ownership doesn't exist but has the worst civil rights in the world (NK) and the highest murder rate in the world (Hon).

Am i the only one here who fears waking up one morning to a news flash of someone committing a shooting atrocity here ?

I'd hope so [that you're the only one].

There has never been such an atrocity here and we as a community have a much different attitude and approach to shooting and firearms than our American brethren. With shooting sports being the oldest organised sport (older than the GAA which is around 130 years) and no such incident being recorded, that is over 150 years without an ounce of trouble.

gunny123

Just because a spree has never happened here before, doesn't mean it cannot, or will not happen. To think otherwise is illogical, if you accept, as you have, that people can be unpredictable, get upset, be under stresses and pressures with life.

The UK has a very similar gun culture to our own, similar lifestyle, and they have had three mass murders in my memory.

Cass

I am not saying it cannot happen for the very reasons you have outlined, but i do not worry about it for the reasons i gave.

We have a completely different attitude to firearms, and the laws to prevent and prosecute such crimes already exists. No amount of legislation will prevent such a shooting, but my point about the history of our sport/relation with firearms is that in over 150 years we have no had one. In Barry's two terms there were over 160 mass shootings (some dispute this and class some shootings as multiple victim shootings so not mass, but they still occurred), 20 for bush jnr, 23 for Clinton, 12 for Bush snr, 11 for Reagan. So from 1981 to 2017 (36 years) there was 226 multiple victim shootings in the states. In Ireland from 1864 to 2017 (153 years) we had none.

Our thinking with regard to firearms comes from a difference in social aspects too. We don't have any right to them, and as a society we seem to have a "feck it" then move on attitude and not "who can i hurt for no reason". Hell when you put "cooling off period" into your gun laws you know there might be an issue that needs addressing.

Grizzly 45

Cass wrote: »

They are saying the sick bastard that carried out the attacks in law vegas was anti Trump and a member/supporter of antifa (the left wing nutjob association) and it was heralded as their [antifa's] opening salvo in a "Civil War".

Way too early to start speculating, but if you think they are not capable of thinking like that well look what a "nice", "polite", "peace loving" lefty said only hours after the attack.

What is utterly sickening is, of course, hardly had the bodies hit the floor "Cersei Lannister", aka Hillary Clinton[She identifies with this character in GOT, an incestuous, psychopath power hungry biatch ...Hillary that is..Think Ceresi wouldn't want to be associated with Hillary Clinton TBH.]
Has tried to make political capital on the proposed legislation to make silencers in the US a non-class three item. Class3 items are things like Full auto anything, destructive devices, sawed-off shotguns, and silencers under the 1934 National firearms act. claims the shooter would have killed more people had he being using a silencer...FS! In a situation like that, with the screams and chaos, a silencer is about as useful as a half door on a submarine.

One thing that I wonder will it come out...Was this guy on anti-depressants?This seems to be a continuous thread thru mass shootings in the USA from Huberty in San Diego in 1984 to the present day.They were all on medication for various mental problems when they should have been in institutions.Huberty practically begged a psycharitac board in San Diego to get him into a place as he believed he was likely to self-harm or others.
[ In a previous life,in a country far,far away I actually got to read the original San Ysidro PD report on the whole shooting incident and the background to it.It was a disaster waiting to happen].

American mental health treatment is absolutely shocking historically as well as today."One flew over the Cuckoos nest" was luxury accommodation and treatment to some asylums in the 1900s to 1970s.Stories of brain lobotomies gone wrong and other experimental treatments and malpractice suits abound to the present day. And that's where big pharma stepped in... Think the NRA have lobbying power in Washington??Piffle compared to the drug company lobby. Solution give the people wonder drugs, chemical nut suits...Alot cheaper than keeping them locked up in the big house for the State, and hey they can function out in society, while pushing their shopping carts full of their possessions around the place and mumbling at the big bugs bunny following them.:rolleyes:
Is your kid just being a normal growing up, hormone imbalanced, mopey teen?Or do they have AHAD and "issues"?Get them to your head shrinker and if they are a bit odd get them on a course of the new wonder drug.Because quite frankly, you suck as parents and just aren't arsed to interact with your kids to find out whats wrong..What happened to Harris and Klebold of Littleton fame.Both were test subjects for a multinational drug company.Their medical records are sealed by the US govt. Something like 30% of US children under 21 are on meds for" behavioural issues".So how many adults are then on happy pills over there?And it seems that if they come off them for whatever reason shooting sprees happen. I'll bet any money this guy was on some intresting meds too.

Grizzly 45

In Barry's two terms there were over 160 mass shootings (some dispute this and class some shootings as multiple victim shootings so not mass, but they still occurred), 20 for bush jnr, 23 for Clinton, 12 for Bush snr, 11 for Reagan. So from 1981 to 2017 (36 years) there was 226 multiple victim shootings in the states. In Ireland from 1864 to 2017 (153 years) we had none.

Remember too that the FBI classify, as do the anti-gun orgs a mass shooting involves four or more injured or dead from gunshot. In that case the 4th of July weekend in Chicago this year[2017] was the biggest unreported shooting in the US.Over 150 gang-related deaths in 72 hours.In the city with the most stringent gun control laws too...
I suppose the closest we in Ireland have had to such, has been either the Austrian ,Gert Isenborger or Abbylara?

Our thinking with regard to firearms comes from a difference in social aspects too. We don't have any right to them, and as a society we seem to have a "feck it" then move on attitude and not "who can i hurt for no reason". Hell when you put "cooling off period" into your gun laws you know there might be an issue that needs addressing.

Oh no...We brood and let it fester our psyche and build it into a feud that can span generations. "Yer family ate our families last rotten spud out of our haggard back in Black 47 and we'll get ye for ratting us out to the landlord to save your own hides! May our future generations avenge us !" US Irish can carry grudges for long past ills with the best of them,like the Scillians or Serbs, and they are in the petty league compared to the Corsicans..However we seem to be getting abit more with it like most civilised countries,and just get riled up and stab each other instead,or literally kick the brains out of each other. Same problems,different methods of sorting it i guess...

gunny123

The thing is you get rubbish like Clinton ( which our glorious state broadcaster spent much money sending the young fogey over to interview) banging on about the availability of firearms, when just across the border in Canada, there are a huge amount of firearms in civilian ownership but with much less violence. Ditto Switzerland, which is basically an army in itself, very little gun violence. So it's something in the mindset of the American people, that leads to huge amounts of murders.

Cass

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Has tried to make political capital on the proposed legislation to make silencers in the US a non-class three item. .

She tried something similar in relation to Puerto Rico but that also backfired on her as can be seen:



I'm also watching reports from aid workers and people on the ground and a small few media outlets about how aid and relief is there and is large enough quantities with more coming, but the Mayor of Puerto Rico is not liaising with FEMA, spreading falsehoods, and also the union for the drivers/workers that distribute the aid are involved in a dispute over pay and are basically holding the place to ransom. IOW they won't deliver the aid unless they get paid an exorbitant amount of money.

Again you have to take everything you're told with a pinch of salt, but people (the ones affected) are saying this, FEMA are the ones saying the Mayor has not liaised with them once, she has said as much herself, and there are pallets upon pallets of aid sitting in the background of all reports so there seems to be some bit of truth to it.

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Oh no...We brood and let it fester our psyche and build it into a feud that can span generations.

It's hardly the Hatfields V McCoys, but does happen however it sure as hell isn't what we've seen on TV the last few days or even close.

gunny123 wrote: »

Ditto Switzerland, which is basically an army in itself, very little gun violence.

As i spoke to Switzerland above and how they have nearly 25% gun ownership rate with a low gun crime rate by comparison and how Honduras that bans its citizens from owning guns altogether has the highest murder rate in the world.

So it's something in the mindset of the American people, that leads to huge amounts of murders.

The guns are not evil in themselves. They are inanimate objects that are used by evil people. The truck attacks, knife attacks, acid attacks, bombings, etc. show that guns are not always the weapon of choice and where they are not as easily available these evil people will find other means to do harm.

I honestly believe that given the choice people intent on doing harm will not go for a gun as the other methods used thus far have proven to cause greater harm and damage as well as instill a greater level of fear in people which is the desired effect from such attacks.

Grizzly 45

As I said about mass shooters being on or off their Meds and the ****ty mental health services, handed over to big Pharma in the USA?

https://www.reviewjournal.com/local/the-strip/las-vegas-strip-shooter-prescribed-anti-anxiety-drug-in-june/

Grizzly 45

Again you have to take everything you're told with a pinch of salt, but people (the ones affected) are saying this, FEMA are the ones saying the Mayor has not liaised with them once, she has said as much herself, and there are pallets upon pallets of aid sitting in the background of all reports so there seems to be some bit of truth to it.

Nor is it helped in the fact that the majority of Puerto Rican truckers belong to the Teamsters union,[ one of the most Mob influenced trade unions known in US history] and are holding out for a 50 dollar per hour payment to deliver aid egged on by this governor....:mad:

Cass

Can someone explain this to me.

7 months ago they were told to take it and now they are facing court for not taking it.

So far they (Irish Gov) have spent over €3,200,000 on solicitors and Barrister fees fighting this. Now i've heard the so called reasons such as:

1. Accepting it would imply Ireland, illegally, gave Apple tax breaks
2. It could risk Apple and other companies pulling out of Ireland
3. Apple, if they pulled out of Ireland, could take 5,000+ jobs with them

Well excuse me, and this is where i need it explained to me, but so fecking what.

1. They must have done something, whether illegal or not (which is not my call), for someone to come up with the number of €13 BILLION. Not million, or even hundred million, but BILLION.
2. Ireland has one of the lowest corporation tax rates in the world (somewhere around 8th or 9th if i remember the article). So if Apple want to pull out and take 15%, 20% or how about 35% in their home country then have at it. See how long it is before they come running back after 2, 5, or 10 years of paying billions in extra tax.
3. Doing some quick math, and i'm no economist, it would take 269 years for 5,000 people on welfare (at the current rate of unemployment/jobseekers) to make up the €13 billion owed by Apple. Let that sink in for a bit. 269 YEARS.

The money, nearly 8% of GDP, could end the housing crisis, pay for the national education plan, pay for hospitals, roads, healthcare, Gardaí, Defense forces, and all this before the estimated €6 billion in interest on that money.


As said i'm not an economist and i don't pretend to understand the intricate details of finance, but given what Michall Noonan has done with Vulture funds, NAMA to Project Eagle Sales, PAC threats (allegedly), Shell Oil to Sea, the "Grace" case, etc, etc. and of course the testimony of Jonathon Sugarman (see vid) how much do you trust what he has to say. Now i know it's Paschal Donohue, but all this cam eon Noonans watch (or most of it).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fuAQO-jkjwM

gunny123

"Taxes are for the little people" - Leona Helmsley.

Thats all you need to know really Cass. "We don't want to pay any tax, and if you force us to, we will pull out of Ireland, and all those highly skilled, well payed people will be on the dole". Thats basically it.

gunny123

Comrade Corbyns brother wades into the las vegas shooting.



http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/862015/Las-Vegas-Shooting-Conspiracy-Democrats-Jeremy-Corbyn-Piers-Labour-dead-festival

Nekarsulm

gunny123 wrote: »

"Taxes are for the little people" - Leona Helmsley.

Thats all you need to know really Cass. "We don't want to pay any tax, and if you force us to, we will pull out of Ireland, and all those highly skilled, well payed people will be on the dole". Thats basically it.

"Doing a DELL"

Grizzly 45

We wont see a RED CENT of that money here, so dont be planning anything.It will go to Europe in ,fines and other hoover up manouvers to be distributed for "the common good."

gunny123

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2017/oct/06/australias-firearms-amnesty-collects-more-than-50000-guns

Grizzly 45

All the more reason to move if you are, to New Zealand.

Cass

Jesus wept.

Our unelected leader was on the radio a few days back, and i quote, "calling for banks to rectify the tracker mortgage issue, and apologise to customers". I see today he is quoted in the Times as saying that if the banks continued to ignore the scandal of tracker mortgages he would instruct Paschal to bring in the bank bosses to "admonish" them.

Seriously!! I mean WTF.

Admonish them, for theft on a grand scale. If i steal money i go to jail. They steal it from tens of thousands of people and are asked, nicely, by the government to get it sorted and apologise for doing it.

Why in the name of all that is holy are these people not being arrested, prosecuted and jailed, the banks fined heavily, the customers refunded immediately and their original mortgage rate reinstated.

It is beyond me how this is allowed to go on. We sit back and take it EVERY SINGLE TIME.

People have gone from being able to afford their homes to not being able, to struggling, to being in debt, to loosing sleep and incurring health issues because of this. I don't doubt there has been repossessions and possible suicide/suicidal thoughts because of this. And what do we get from our so called leaders? A "call" for the banks to fix this.

A thorough disgrace.

Nekarsulm

If there was such a thing as a "Class Action" legal procedure in this country, they would be more easily brought to heel.

As it is, every single individual would have to take them to court individually.

Cass

I'm not legally minded so don't know the details but if you commit a crime the state (via the various departments) arrest you, charge you, prosecute you and imprisons you.

A person bringing a lawsuit would be civil and not criminal. So only the state could bring the people responsible to task for their crimes.

While class actions don't exist and people would, as you said, have to sue on an individual basis, it's up to the state to investigate, arrest, charge and prosecute the people involved. So if it's not being done it's not because you (the general you) don't choose to do it, follow it up or press charges, it's because the state hasn't done it.

Might be saying this arse ways, but you get the idea. It's not up to the people that were robbed, it's the state's responsibility.

Grizzly 45

Cass wrote: »

Jesus wept.

Our unelected leader was on the radio a few days back, and i quote, "calling for banks to rectify the tracker mortgage issue, and apologise to customers". I see today he is quoted in the Times as saying that if the banks continued to ignore the scandal of tracker mortgages he would instruct Paschal to bring in the bank bosses to "admonish" them.

Seriously!! I mean WTF.

Admonish them, for theft on a grand scale. If i steal money i go to jail. They steal it from tens of thousands of people and are asked, nicely, by the government to get it sorted and apologise for doing it.

Why in the name of all that is holy are these people not being arrested, prosecuted and jailed, the banks fined heavily, the customers refunded immediately and their original mortgage rate reinstated.

It is beyond me how this is allowed to go on. We sit back and take it EVERY SINGLE TIME.

People have gone from being able to afford their homes to not being able, to struggling, to being in debt, to loosing sleep and incurring health issues because of this. I don't doubt there has been repossessions and possible suicide/suicidal thoughts because of this. And what do we get from our so called leaders? A "call" for the banks to fix this.

A thorough disgrace.

Simply because everyone in power here has their hands in each other's pockets and all the "people that be important" have their hands in there as well, so we have the great Irish circle jerk [off]. All these people meet and mingle in the same circles, events, society soirees, orgies, mistresses etc.You are not going to demand off your pals the banker that they cop on to themselves, or they will be doing a Bernie Madoff frogmarch from their office in the Docklands to a squad car. Elections are expensive things and come around pretty often, and that personal loan for your campaign mightn't be that easy to get once your pal is sitting in jail? why do you think massive personal debt suddenly became a govt problem, in reality, OUR, the taxpayer's problem on the night in Nov about 7 years ago?? The banks simply said to a man dying of cancer and was unfit for the job."If we go down, the country and your govt is coming along for the ride!" Everyone has dirt on everyone else in these circles, and no one wants to be seen as the bad guy and possibly involved in some scandal.It's why incompetence is awarded here and not punished.throw someone else's money at the problem and it goes away..
It's why we will never have a Trump-like figure in Ireland.Anyone with enough money to challenge the system, will be bought and sold by the system that created their wealth here.Unless someone wins the biggest euro millions possible and is patriotic or crazy enough to want to change Irish politics.if you have that sort of money, would you waste it or be arsed enough to do it or be bothered?

cavan shooter

its shocking....if I walk into a bank and take 17,000 im a thief and will be hunted by the Law.

If the bank does it......No problem??? WTF, it brings back to me the words of a woody gutherie song "Pretty boy floyd"

"As through this world I've wandered
I've seen lots of funny men;
Some will rob you with a six-gun,
And some with a fountain pen.

And as through your life you travel,
Yes, as through your life you roam,
You won't never see an outlaw
Drive a family from their home."............

Nekarsulm

I see that The Herald are reporting that the gun carried by the career criminal in Tallagh yesterday was a "9mm 8 guage".

This must be a rare beast indeed! Especially as the photos show something resembling a MP 40.

juice1304

Interesting it is a PPS43 from looking at the photo, so it could have come from pretty much anywhere.
Goes to show how simple it is for petty criminals to purchase illegal firearms though and how useless the majority of the laws in Ireland are.

Walter Mittys Brother

Legislation is there getting judges to give the mandatory sentence might help

Grizzly 45

Our criminals sure do have some exotic firepower here in 9mm 8 gauge.:rolleyes: And literally if someone is getting their hands on old Russian "burp guns"
Isn't that the ultimate irony..Imagine if Las Vegas had been shot with a genuine full auto anything..What sort of an outcry there would have been if the shooter had rebuilt a "parts kit" into a reactivated gun.Yet here with the strictest gun control in the EU, it's almost part and parcel and Ho hum! that gangs shoot at each other here these days with full auto stuff on our streets..

cavan shooter

Shocking waste of resources and now Garda time.
He had a gun, he had showed intent, taxpayer saves 70K per year for the hotel on the North Circular road.

The press are ill informed muppets..

Resistance is futile

Nekarsulm wrote: »

I see that The Herald are reporting that the gun carried by the career criminal in Tallagh yesterday was a "9mm 8 guage".

This must be a rare beast indeed! Especially as the photos show something resembling a MP 40.

Not much research done there . I'm not an expert but it look like an old British Army Sterling 9 mm Typical journalists trying for the explosive quote

cavan shooter

Resistance is futile wrote: »

Not much research done there . I'm not an expert but it look like an old British Army Sterling 9 mm Typical journalists trying for the explosive quote

No checked it out definitely its a 9mm 8 gauge, looks like a suppressed variant dating from the 1970's. Id say it came from the batch that was stolen and buried by the UVFF. If you look a bit closer you can see that its designed for an under slung PIAT.

Cass

Lads,

Just letting ye know i'e moved the thread into the "Off Topic" thread, here, as it's not sporting related. You can discuss it on this thread.