Off Topic Chat. (MOD NOTE post# 3949 and post#5279)

Cass

An awful lot of places don't accept it, and rightly so as it's not a national identity card. Without putting on a tinfoil hat, Grizz is right. The more departments and services that demand it the more info that is retained about you in the one place. One breach and everything you are is out there.

In a world of social media and people incessantly documenting their lives via FB, Twitter, vblogs, etc. some might say that info is already out there, and to an extent i agree. However this is not your favorite restaurant, song, etc. this is social security numbers, driving license details, names, addresses, DoB, etc. Everything someone needs to invade/steal your life.

Nekarsulm

Agree with everything youve stated, Cass.
My wife was more or less forced to get the card or forgo the children's allowance, necessitating her to take a day off work and travel to West Cavan to get the official photo taken.

Uinseann_16

+1 agree with what you said Cass
I was forced to get the social services card it for my provisional licence

J.R.

Cass wrote: »

The new social welfare card. They claim it was not a national ID card yet people have had payments and services withheld for refusing to get one. They made it mandatory that you need it to get a driving license .

Uinseann_16 wrote: »

+1 agree with what you said Cass
I was forced to get the social services card it for my provisional licence

I. thankfully, never experience those demands.

I don't have a public service card - was never asked to get one.

I had no problem renewing my driving licence. My daughter has a PS card but had no problem getting her first licence without having to show it. She showed a letter from revenue with address and PPSN number on it.

They will accept a letter from revenue P.45...P.60... Certificate of Tax-free allowances etc. as PPSN number.

THey have a list of what is accepted as photograph proof.

Irish passport which cannot be expired by more than 12 months
Irish driving licence or learner permit
Current passport for all non-Irish citizens (valid for international use)
Current national identity card for EU/EEA/Swiss citizens
Irish Certificate of Naturalisation
Current UK photo driving licence
Current public services card (As this does not indicate date of birth an original birth cert will also be required)
Current Irish travel document

2nd last on the list is PS card...it can be used but not mandatory.

ezra_

I renewed my driving licence recently.

Passport card was sufficient for proof of ID, my E11 health card was sufficient for PPSN. The PSC card never came up. Address wasn't an issue as it wasn't changing.

Panjandrums

This post has been deleted.

Grizzly 45

Fortunately, at the moment all your other info is not cross-referencable with other govt depts or organisations.IOW the dept of social protection cant access your medical records, the revenue commissioners cant find out about your gun licenses and your doctor cant read your penalty points.THAT would be the most horrendous card ever to exist for mankind and be the card that if breached an utter calamity for anyone concerned.At the moment any dept that wants info on you has to still "ask" for it.However be assured that no doubt both here and in the EUSSR there is some faceless "beura rat" planning such a ball and chain for us all,and that, of course, it is available to some faceless minion from Ballincollig to Berlin ,that all our personal info and life is an open book to be pried into at a moments notice for any reason.

As you might know, there is even talk of doing away completely with the Euro and going utterly cashless.Already next year the 500 euro note is going, and if that why not remove the greatest privacy barrier,cash as well?? So everyone in power can know how much that new rifle cost and how much ammo you bought of course.All of course to keep us safe from "criminals and terrorists!":rolleyes:

Would someone please tell our elected,that 1984 and Brave New World were Satire,not feckin manuals on how to run a society?:mad:

gunny123

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Would someone please tell our elected,that 1984 and Brave New World were Satire,not feckin manuals on how to run a society?:mad:

Ever closer union, ever closer ties, until we disappear completely.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/dec/07/martin-schulz-united-states-of-europe-germany-sdp

Everyone scoffed at the brits when they refused to join the euro-dollar, but they did not lose control of their own currency as we did. And when they decided to pull the plug and leave completely, it gave the likes of schultz etc an open goal for the united states of europe.

Thats fine if thats what people want, but i have rarely heard any of the politicians of any hue, here, questioning any of the dictats from the eu.

Cass

J.R. wrote: »

I don't have a public service card - was never asked to get one.

Apparently they have more on order and everyone will have one.

I had no problem renewing my driving licence. My daughter has a PS card but had no problem getting her first licence without having to show it. She showed a letter from revenue with address and PPSN number on it.

As was said above it was meant for your first licenses and the proof your daughter handed in is the equivalent of the card.

2nd last on the list is PS card...it can be used but not mandatory.

Give it time.

Cass

gunny123 wrote: »

.............. but i have rarely heard any of the politicians of any hue, here, questioning any of the dictats from the eu.

Not a fecking chance. Talk back to our EU masters!!!!!!

We lost our Sovereignty with the forced loan from the IMF, were forced to pay monies for the financial crisis many times over the amount other countries had to, pay back the bondholders under threat from the EU (Jean Claude Trichet), then get a pat on the head from our EU masters when our so called "leaders" go to Brussels for their belly rub.

The corruption in our little country is rampant. From TDs and Ministers scamming expenses, double jobbing, involved in scandals yet holding their jobs, bankrupted yet holding their position, using the Gardaí as their personal enforcers, using the Gardaí as bailiffs, TDs lying about the banking crisis, TDs being paid off with cushy positions, driving the country and people into 10 years of some of the harshest austerity ever, sky rocketing homelessness, 250,000 children below the poverty line, loosing our Sovereignty, refusing to stand up for what is best for the country and its peoples over the EU, taking huge pensions from the moment they retire as opposed to the retirement age of 67, lavish pay rises, meaningless gestures spoken about in the Dail, ineffective legislation, then overly legislating every aspect of our lives. etc, etc.

As i asked someone not so long ago, name one thing we get that is free in response to his claim we, as a people, are free. We're told what to do, what to eat, when, how to piss, what to think, what to say, etc. Its absurd.

The views of the minority are held to a higher level than those of the majority for fear of being seeing as not "fair" or uncaring in the eyes of our masters. The same masters that have armed, 24hr guards and live in walled/gated communities/properties and never have to deal with the consequences of their actions.



(mini rant over)

Grizzly 45

"A people and country get the Govt they deserve." Ben Franklin
If we keep electing former school teachers and stroke artists, and "He fixed DA Road", or the local GAA hero or Rugby player types into govt and to lead us....Well, then can we expect not to have a country full of incompetence and corruption??

What kind of a country do we have, where our national leaders still have to curry favour with their electoral base, by getting councils to do their jobs of the basics of a modern societies function? IE fix a pothole or a street light?
All politics might be local, but it certainly is not when you get to Brussels and are playing in the really big boys class.
Ever look at our lot in Brussels?They are walking about the place like a bunch of slack-jawed yokels being overawed by "De big city."As they realise how far out of their depth they really are, and that the policy of letting the "grown-up " Europeans making the big decisions suits them down to the ground.As they have a job back home and the prospect of a better one in Brussels ,if they are good little boys and girls...Me fein, first, second and all the way down the line.

How do we stop this?Quit voting for local pothole fixing and stroke politics men and vote for those who put the country of Ireland first, and not pay lip service to it.Ask any of those who have sights on Brussels, can they speak another European language fluently?[Gaelic doesn't count!] Why?Every Mainland EU minister is fluent in at least two.You need to be able to pick up on nuances that only you understand in listening to a spoken language, not a translated in some cases garbled version in the parliament. We need our best of the best zero holders over there not the PITA in the Dail or as an award for incompetence. [Looking at you Phil Hogan...]
We,the people need to change in our attitude on how we want to be goverend and that will change our elected.

gunny123

“Europe’s nations should be guided towards the superstate without their people understanding what is happening. This can be accomplished by successive steps, each disguised as having an economic purpose, but which will eventually and irreversibly lead to federation.”

― Jean Monnet, aka the founding father of the eu.

Grizzly 45

Yes indeed.Anyone here know what the Ventotene declaration is[Or even where Ventotene is ,and what happened there??I bet you ask any one of our leaders who cheerlead the EU, they wouldn't have a clue on either] Or what the Frankfurt school is?:eek::mad:

Grizzly 45

Some of you know it as the "BAP" but John Brownings last pistol design is now history and is no longer made by Browning.Bummer! I wanted one of these.:mad:

https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/weapons/a16720630/browning-hi-power-production-ends/?src=nl&mag=pop&list=nl_pnl_news&date=020818

gunny123

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Some of you know it as the "BAP" but John Brownings last pistol design is now history and is no longer made by Browning.Bummer! I wanted one of these.:mad:

https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/weapons/a16720630/browning-hi-power-production-ends/?src=nl&mag=pop&list=nl_pnl_news&date=020818

Yes a sad day and the hi-power was a true classic. Nearly anything JM Browning designed was excellent, the b25 o/u, the A5, the first truly practical semi shotgun, the 1911 pistol, enough said, the list goes on and on.

But i should have said that Browning only did the first part of the design of the hi-power, as he died before it was completed. He also had to work around the 1911 design as he no longer held the patent of that pistol.

I believe the Argentinian copy of the Hi-power is excellent (unusually) and well worth having.

I wanted a hi-power too, but ahern put paid to that.

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Fortunately, at the moment all your other info is not cross-referencable with other govt depts or organisations.

However be assured that no doubt both here and in the EUSSR there is some faceless "beura rat" planning such a ball and chain for us all

So about that PSC. Simon McGarr (remember the "right to be forgotten" case against Google? That was him) has been posting a lot on twitter about this since it emerged and there are a few interesting points about it, such as:

- it has no legal grounds to exist.

Actually, that one is all you really need. Basically, there is no legal framework whatsoever to allow the thing to exist. Never has been. The entire basis for it so far appears to have been an agreement between the civil servants in two departments, but _not_ the Ministers of those departments and the agreement had a sunset clause that expired some years ago.

That one really should sink it, but in case not...

- it's not legal to share data the way Grizzly describes between departments if it is not made clear that that will happen at the time of collecting the data. Retrospective sharing is not legal.

About that EUSSR thing? The EU is the group saying you're not allowed share data (specifically the EU courts, it's the Bara case that applies here). Our government is in denial about it, but you know how courts like denial of a law's validity as a defence against breaking that law...

- it's planned to be linked to a large number of things like medical information and their proof of concept databases were populated with real data in violation of every software engineering best practice I know of and quite a few ethics guidelines and probably a law or two

- it's quite likely not legal under the GDPR either (as are a whole range of things like automatic facial recognitions systems hooked up to CCTV cameras by the Gardai and the like), and once again, that GDPR protection for the average schmuck is a nasty EUSSR plot to...


...actually, hang on a second. Compared to what our mob are trying to do, I think I'd rather the EUSSR thanks At least that lot could organise a pissup in a brewery and pay for it...

Grizzly 45

Sparks wrote: »

S



About that EUSSR thing? The EU is the group saying you're not allowed share data (specifically the EU courts, it's the Bara case that applies here). Our government is in denial about it, but you know how courts like denial of a law's validity as a defence against breaking that law...

- it's planned to be linked to a large number of things like medical information and their proof of concept databases were populated with real data in violation of every software engineering best practice I know of and quite a few ethics guidelines and probably a law or two

- it's quite likely not legal under the GDPR either (as are a whole range of things like automatic facial recognitions systems hooked up to CCTV cameras by the Gardai and the like), and once again, that GDPR protection for the average schmuck is a nasty EUSSR plot to...


...actually, hang on a second. Compared to what our mob are trying to do, I think I'd rather the EUSSR thanks At least that lot could organise a pissup in a brewery and pay for it...

Add one clause to that above... That applies to civilian and private databases.Govt databases might be a different story.Either which way it is best that be it the EUSSR or Ireland your data file is kept separate for each civil ,corporate,and govt entity you deal with. No need for the taxman to know what you bought in ammo recently,or your doctor to know your DUI points.

Sparks

No Grizzly, the Bara case explicitly deals with government databases. The original case was taken against the Romanian government:
https://www.dataprotection.ie/docs/Bara-Others/1528.htm

In this case the national legislation allowed the transfer of personal data to certify whether a person qualifies as an insured person. The national law did not define either the transferable data or the detailed arrangements for transferring the data. Instead those details were outlined in a bilateral protocol (a non-legislative measure) agreed between two public sector bodies. The European Court of Justice noted that the data in question (data relating to income) was not necessary to determine whether someone qualifies as an insured person. Therefore the court was satisfied that the data subjects had not been informed in advance from the general legislative measure in question of the details of the data being shared and furthermore the Member State was unable to rely on the restrictions provided by Article 13(1)(e) and (f) of the Directive as the details of the arrangement and the exemption being relied upon had been provided in a protocol which was a non legislative measure.
The judgement re-iterates the importance to inform the data subject about the processing of their personal data is as it affects the exercise by the data subjects of their right of access to, and right to rectify, the data being processed, set out in Article 12 of Directive 95/46/EC and their right to object to the processing of data as set out in Article 14 of that Directive.

The consequences of this judgment are significant and potentially very far reaching. The Office of the Data Commissioner recommends that all public sector bodies complete a full review of their obligations and arrangements on the basis of the findings in this judgment to ensure that those arrangements are fully compliant with the Data Protection Directive 95/46/EC.

In other words, even if the government writes a law saying they're allowed to share the data retrospectively, they're not allowed to do it under EU law. They don't have the legal authority to do so, that's ceded to the EU.

Cass

Several celebrities wore orange lapel pins during the Oscars in support of gun control and the Michael Bloomberg-founded gun control advocacy group Everytown for Gun Safety.

Meanwhile these advocates for gun control enjoy this on their night:

• The Los Angeles Police Department will deploy 500 officers to wrap the Dolby Theatre in multiple barriers of armed security for the 90th Academy Awards on Sunday night
• There will be concentric rings of security that start in the middle and radiate outward,
• There will be officers in fixed posts and foot beats keeping an eye on the event
• There will be road closures to prevent people breaching a security perimeter made up of a wall of ten-foot gates and barricades
• There will be FBI agents, and firefighters on scene all night.
• Police helicopters will be above
• There will be private security guards from Security Industry Specialists inside the Dolby Theater.

The puke fest that is the eternally unfunny Jimmy kimmel went on another tear jerking rant about gun control and even took a few digs at the GOP, but never mentioned the Democrat angle to the last dozen or so mass shootings. However leave political allegiances out of it for a minute and look at what they want.

They want more gun control. So what new law, exactly like the situation we have here when the gangs start killing each other in hotels dressed as Gardaí with AKs, do they want that will deal with people already working outside the system?

The latest shooting involved a kid that should never have gotten a gun because the system failed. The FBI never acted on previous tips and posts he made on the internet. The police were called to his home dozens of times. he had mental health issues, and was reported by staff at the school for his behaviour. Then couple that with a coward cop and his buddies that were too afraid to do their job and a Sheriff trying to pass the blame.

Yet somehow all this is the fault of the current gun laws! Somehow this is the fault of the NRA! Somehow this is the fault of the President!

As a result they want a draft of new laws including the banning of AR-15s. According to the FBI rifles (notice rifles and not just ARs) were responsible for some 300 deaths last year. I'm sure the number involving ARs is in there somewhere, but this includes all rifles. Pay no attention to the:

• 450+ deaths from knives
• 650+ deaths from beatings
• 8,000 deaths from handguns
• 35,000 from suicide
• 45,000 deaths from motor vehicles
• 48,000+ deaths from alcohol
• 250,000+ deaths from medical errors/malpractice
• 300,000+ (est) from obesity and other weight related problems
• 330,000+ from Planned Parenthood
• 500,000+ from smoking related diseases
• 500,000+ deaths from Heart disease (the continuous number one killer in the US)

Also pay no attention to the other firearms that use the same round as the AR but are not on anyone's list:

• AEK-971
• Ak 5
• AK-101
• AK-102
• AK-107
• Amogh carbine
• APS-95
• AR-15 style rifle
• Ares Shrike 5.56
• ArmaLite AR-15
• ArmaLite AR-18
• Armtech C30R
• Benelli MR1
• Beretta ARX160
• Beretta AS70/90
• Beretta Rx4 Storm
• BR18
• Remington ACR rifle
• Bushmaster Arm Pistol
• Bushmaster M4-type Carbine
• Bushmaster M17S
• Bushmaster XM-15
• CAR-15
• Carbon 15
• CETME Model L
• Close Quarters Battle Receiver
• Colt Advanced Piston Carbine
• Colt AR-15
• List of Colt AR-15 & M16 rifle variants
• Colt Canada C7
• Colt CM901
• Conventional Multirole Combat Rifle
• CZ 527
• CZ 805 BREN
• ČZ 2000
• Daewoo Precision Industries K1
• Daewoo Precision Industries K2
• S&T Daewoo XK8
• Desarrollos Industriales Casanave SC-2005
• EMERK
• Excalibur rifle
• FAMAS
• FARA 83
• FB Beryl
• Floro PDW
• FN CAL
• FN F2000
• FN FNC
• FN SCAR
• FX-05 Xiuhcoatl
• G13 carbine
• Heckler & Koch XM8
• Heckler & Koch G36
• Heckler & Koch HK416
• Heckler & Koch HK433
• Heckler & Koch SL6
• Heckler & Koch SL8
• Howa Type 89
• IMBEL IA2
• IMBEL MD
• IMBEL MD97
• IMI Galil
• IWI Tavor
• IWI Tavor 7
• INSAS rifle
• IWI ACE
• IWI Negev
• IWI Tavor X95
• Kbkm wz. 2003
• Kel-Tec PLR-16
• Kel-Tec RDB
• Kel-Tec SU-16
• KH-2002
• La France M16K
• Leader Dynamics Series T2 MK5
• Lightweight Small Arms Technologies
• LR-300
• LSAT rifle
• LWRC M6
• M4 carbine
• M231 Firing Port Weapon
• Magpul PDR
• Marine Scout Sniper Rifle
• Mk 12 Special Purpose Rifle
• Modern Sub Machine Carbine
• MPT-76
• MSBS rifle
• Multi Caliber Individual Weapon System
• Norinco CQ
• Olympic Arms OA-93
• Omark Model 44
• PAPOP
• Pindad PS-01
• Pindad SS1
• Pindad SS2
• PVAR rifle
• QBZ-95
• Remington Model 7600
• Remington R5 RGP
• Robinson Armament XCR
• Ruger American Rifle
• Ruger Gunsite Scout
• Ruger M77
• Ruger Mini-14
• Ruger Precision Rifle
• Ruger SR-556
• SA80
• Safir T-series
• S&T Daewoo K11
• SAR 21
• SAR 80
• Savage 10FP
• SEAL Recon Rifle
• SIG MCX
• SIG Sauer SIG516
• SIG Sauer SIGM400
• SIG SG 530
• SIG SG 540
• SIG SG 550
• Smith & Wesson M&P15
• SOCIMI AR-831
• Special Operations Assault Rifle
• SR 88
• Sterling SAR-87
• Steyr AUG
• Steyr Scout
• T65 assault rifle
• T86 assault rifle
• T91 assault rifle
• Tuma MTE 224 VA
• Ultimax 100
• United States Marine Corps Squad Advanced Marksman Rifle
• Valmet M76
• Valmet M82
• VB Berapi LP06
• Vektor CR-21
• Vektor R4
• HS Produkt VHS
• WASR-series rifles
• Wieger StG-940
• XM29 OICW
• XM214 Microgun
• XT-97 Assault Rifle
• Zastava M21
• Zastava M80
• Zastava M85
• Zastava M90

Everyone keeps on calling them assault rifles. Assault is an action, not a firearm, but that is being pedantic and the left say it doesn't matter. Well it does. The AR-15 was made by Armalite rifle company, variant 15, and bought out by colt. The military version is a fully automatic weapon, and it is a weapon, that civilians have not been able to own (at least not easily or cheaply) since 1986. The civilian version AR platforms are not designed for or even capable of sustained fire like its military counterpart.

Then you have news media outlets with an agenda and as soon as the gun control topic comes up they turn from reporters to advocates and all the rules and integrity of the profession goes out the window. They trot out kids with pre-planned statements, hold one sided "debates", report falsehoods like the youtube video below, and muffle/silence any critics or opposition to their agenda.

BTW the same kids they had to tell, two weeks ago, to stop eating washing machine tablets!!!!!!!!!!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xVQXCL2JGA

We live in a country with strong gun control, and no second amendment so the concept of such freedom in relation to guns is alien to me. However after much checking i find it's not so alien, and the "freedom" they have is not so free. There are controls on the types of guns, magazine capacities, age limits, and in some states outright bans (like in DC, NY, Cali, etc.) You cannot own a gun if you have a mental disorder, been dishonourably discharged from the military, or have an abuse/assault charge against you.

So with the hundreds/thousands of existing laws what more can be done without the ban they [the left] say they are not looking for?

Any way mini rant over. Carry on.

Grizzly 45

20 thousand Federal, State and local ordinances on the books in the US , and one more law or ban will work??How about enforcing whats on the statute books as it stands?
TBH,Hollywoo is now showing itself to be just utter hypocrisy and the self-love fest is impressing no one anymore.Movie stars making millions shooting bad guys with state of the art weaponary[The new Death Wish with anti-gun Bruce Willis is a great example] but espousing that us peasants who make them millions in cinema box office returns are much more entitled to be protected by armed security in their mansions with full auto weaponry, and the rest of us can go hump.I'd challenge the odifiours Whoopi Goldberg,the obnoxious Rosie O Donnell and the man-hater Ellen to go take a walk or spend a labour day weekend in the South side of Chicago,which has the strongest gun control in the USA now, to see how well their gun control ideas really work.:P The body count last labour day weekend there in three days and nights was 78 dead and 150+/- gunshot injuries..Twice as many as Las Vegas and the Fla shooting.

With now well North of 600 million more or less known guns in the USA,and God alone knows how much ammo and spare parts to make up Ar15s aplenty.Not to mind Cody Williams Ghost gun 3d CNC lathe at under 1000dollars now.It is just a pure bit of anti-gun masturbation fantasy to belive the banning of now the most popular gun design will ever happen.Its not like over here in Europe where the authorities know who has what and how many.You can make your own guns if you want in the US, provided you dont sell them on or pass them on in any form.
Plus,the anti gun nuts are remarkably silent on how this confiscation will ever take place.With the armed forces both retired and active and the majority of law enforcement stating they will not move on such an order against the Constitution.Who will enforce it?Or want to?Or accept the consequences of causing a potential 2nd civil war in the USA over this issue? It would be playing right into the hands of the anti-govt groups of all hues who have been saying that the Govt will eventually confiscate Americans guns. If two Islamic dimwitts making a homemade bomb in a domestic cooking pot,could shut down a major US city for 2days.What could a well equipped, competent group do in every major city?As we saw in Florida,not every cop is going to put their life on the line either to go and deal with a possible active shooter.So how is this going to work out house to house in gun searches,where they will be going up against possible ex-military or ex police who are saying come and take them if you dare?
Get rid of Free fire,AKA gun free zones and allow open carry,be amazed how quick things will change for the better over there. r

Grizzly 45

CNN 's report was laughable..An officer who was a REMF [Rear Echelon Muther F kr] whose last command was in Germany pushing pins on a supply depot map,after the Russians had long gone home, shooting a "semi-full automatic Assault rifle"and a reporter holding and shooting a, in all reality a glorified .22 like the thing weighed a ton and had the recoil of an elephant gun.:rolleyes:
That 10-year-old little girl or 80-year-old granddads can shoot better than that desk jockey and hack combined. No wonder Clinton Network News is aptly described by prez Trump as "fake news".

ezra_

Cass wrote:

330,000+ from Planned Parenthood

??

Are you talking about terminations?

Cass

ezra_ wrote: »

Are you talking about terminations?

Yes.

I don't know where you stand personally on the issue as i wouldn't ask, but with the upcomin referendum on the Eight amendment (here), and with everyone saying to save the babies and children i find it hypocritical and dishonest that planned parenthood that are financed to the tune of hundreds of millions each year abort over 300,000 babies each year.

That figure is from planned parenthood as they make no secret of it.

You can argue they're not babies/children because they're not born, but then at what point do you call a person, a person?

gunny123

Cass wrote: »

Yes.

I don't know where you stand personally on the issue as i wouldn't ask, but with the upcomin referendum on the Eight amendment (here), and with everyone saying to save the babies and children i find it hypocritical and dishonest that planned parenthood that are financed to the tune of hundreds of millions each year abort over 300,000 babies each year.

That figure is from planned parenthood as they make no secret of it.

You can argue they're not babies/children because they're not born, but then at what point do you call a person, a person?

Not to mention the Irish minister for children and uber leftie liberal Katherine Zappone, advocating abortion too. A minister for children advocating abortion, typical stupid Irish carry-on.

As for gun control in the USA, i can see America splitting, states like California and New York being very draconian towards gun ownership, and the southern and western states being very liberal towards gun ownership.

But is whats being proposed so bad ? A three day waiting period ? To me thats a small inconvenience, god knows i have waited over three months for licences at times. Back ground checks ? Again if you have no record of being a nutcase or a criminal, whats the issue ?

Cass

gunny123 wrote: »

Not to mention the Irish minister for children and uber leftie liberal Katherine Zappone, advocating abortion too. A minister for children advocating abortion, typical stupid Irish carry-on.

In very special and limited circumstances, yes, i can see a need for it. Situations were the Mother's life is in danger, etc. However as an "over the counter" procedure then no, absolutely not.

As for gun control in the USA, i can see America splitting, states like California and New York being very draconian towards gun ownership, and the southern and western states being very liberal towards gun ownership.

Yes and no.

While it's true most Southern states enjoy the full protection fo the 2nd amendment some Northern states are not far behind. Montana, Utah, Vermont, Maine, North Dakota, etc. are all fairly loose enough when it comes to firearms. They allow concealed carry sometimes without the need for a permit and they, and other northern states have fairly lax gun laws.

But is whats being proposed so bad ? A three day waiting period ? To me thats a small inconvenience, god knows i have waited over three months for licences at times. Back ground checks ? Again if you have no record of being a nutcase or a criminal, whats the issue ?

The thing is we are used to controls and because gun ownership is a prvilege, not a right, we cannot expect the same level of ownership as our American counterparts.

The 2nd amendment is not a law its a right. That means unless someone can say/prove you should not have one there is to be no restrictions on the ownership of firearm for American citizens. I hear the argument that ARs and similar guns are not needed for deer hunting, etc. but the 2nd amendment says nothing about deer hunting. Its for the citizens to be prepared, armed and ready to defend themselves even against their own Government. It's why America is unique. In any other country such talk, let alone a constitutional right, to defend yourself against your own Government would be called sedition.

Americans don't see the need to limit, curtail or restrict one right over any others. I mean if you are going to limit the 2nd amendment why not the first and stop all free speech, the right to religious freedom, etc. How about the 4th & 5th amendment so the cops can do as they please? How about the 15th and remove the ability for blacks to vote?

If you want to water down one right why not the others?

gunny123

But gun rights in America are watered down to a certain extent, The 1968 NFA act for instance, you are barred from owning quite a lot of firearms.

Anyway its not the firearms, but the people who misuse them, is what the issue is in the USA. Canada has large firearms ownership, but it does not seem to have the same problems as their neighbours south of the border.

gunny123

http://thegatewaypundit.com/2018/03/watch-speech-guns-virginia-senate-candidate-causes-democrat-walk-goes-massively-viral-online/

Cass

gunny123 wrote: »

But gun rights in America are watered down to a certain extent, The 1968 NFA act for instance, you are barred from owning quite a lot of firearms.

Exactly. The laws for each state are different, and bans/limitations are already in place. Background checks already exist. In some places it's 1 hour, some a day, 3 days and up to 10 days. Cooling off periods the longer ones are called. Bump stocks were banned after Las Vegas and from what i've read most genuine shooters don't give a rat's ass because they were a novelty and frankly useless. So it's not like there is no movement at all.

However state bans are different to federal bans and the talk about age restrictions is something they see as a condition on a constitutional right. It's only aimed at the 2nd amendment, as i said above, and like saying you cannot practice any religion you want until you're 21. In a time when kids are deciding their gender at 6, 8, 10 yrs of age, the same kids eating Tide pods which caused legislators to consider introducing laws to make them less appealing to eat, and when voting can be done at 18 they [the shooting community/NRA] see it as a slap in the face that such major decisions can be made at a young age yet the right to own a firearm is limited to 21 and over.

Lastly on the age thing look at age of some of the last few mass shooters:

Anyway its not the firearms, but the people who misuse them, is what the issue is in the USA.

Exactly.

In all of the debates not one person looks at the person who carried it out. As i said above about the recent shooting there were literally dozens of red flags thrown up about Cruz, but a systemic failure allowed him to go on unchecked. So if the laws are in place and they fail how can new laws prevent similar failures and similar tragedies?

The other aspect is the fake news being peddled which leads people to not understanding the subject. People think banning the AR will solve a host of problems not realising there are hundreds of variants and other rifles of the same caliber. I've even read comments where people have said to ban the ammo that assault/automatic weapons use. They don't understand that A) they're not automatic and the ammo is the same as a host of other calibers.

I seen a video where a guy laid out a dozen rifles & handguns. People only picked out the ones that were AR/AK style as a problem. They ignored the 30-30, the 357 lever action (13 round capacity), etc. Ignorance has a lot to answer for, but those in the liberal media, and the Democratic Party have an agenda and they don't want people to be better educated. Keep them dumb, keep they afraid and they remain in control.

Canada has large firearms ownership, but it does not seem to have the same problems as their neighbours south of the border.

They also don't have a 2nd Amendment. Canadian laws are very similar to ours, mostly because we took some of our laws from the Canadian system, and we haven't had one mass shooting nor the level of gun crime that America, Canada, etc. have had.

America is unique. It's why i hate seeing the comparisons with other countries and the best one the left can trot out is Australia. However you get what they want to show, not the facts. Gun crime in Australia spiked in the mid-late 80s and then "leveled off" around the same time as the gun ban of 96 came in. Stats show that gun crime was already decreasing when the ban came in so the ban did not cause the decline in gun crime.

Look also at the term mass shooting. It's the shooting/killing of 4 or more people. However Australia has had 14+ shootings since 1996 with 3 or fewer dead and mulitple injuries in each one right up to 2014. In the same time there were multiple casualty events (over 7 i believe) including arson which caused just as much death. Also Australia has 24m people, America has 320m. Not a fair comparison, but if you judge Australia against the 8 or 9 states with the same population total and the most lax gun laws you'll see the murder rate involving guns between those states and Australia is almost the same (0.96 to 1.20 per 100,000 i believe).

http://thegatewaypundit.com/2018/03/...-viral-online/

Yeah, seen that and its a great speech. Factual, to the point and no BS. The only response from the left was "i'm offended". So in the absence of the coherent rebuttal all the left can do is cry they're upset.

The simple truth is this is the reason things are as they are. Being offended doesn't do jack and it sure as hell shouldn't be an excuse to not debate a subject. Same with the lib-tard terrorist group antifa. They stick their fingers in their ears when something they don't like is said and scream blue murder. Never debate or discuss a point and unless you see it their way you're a facist and Nazi. They are the very thing they claim to be fighting.

Grizzly 45

Comparing the US gun laws to anywhere in the World is a non-starter.As you are comparing a blue whale to a dormouse, and a fridge.They are both mammals in one case and all three exist Earth.And comparing it to countries that have registration of firearms, and the PTB know who has what and how much, and could confiscate if need be, is a double non-starter. Even were only the 80+/- million US hunters to take up arms, they outnumber the entire current US armed forces, and the Russian armed forces together and purchased on two black Fridays under Obama, more firearms than was needed to re-equip the entire US Marine Corps 2and a half times over,and the US citizenry did this for two years running,and are now buying again under this last assault rifle hype.
So with those numbers of firearms out there, isn't it amazing you don't hear of a school or wherever shooting every other day?

The only other place that has as many, if not more guns than the US,is Yemen:eek: Second runner-up is Switzerland, and even those societies are incompatible with the US. If you wanted a rational debate on gun control and the figures you would need to look at the EU and say, the UK/IRL[the NYC/NJ of the EU] Vs the Czech Republic[The Texas of the EU] to see which system has less gun crime.

Grizzly 45

ASFIK the definition of a mass shooting is now 4or more people killed or injured , who were unknown to the shooter...guess we had our own mass shooting in the ROI then a up in the hotel a couple of years ago?