Louise O Neill on rape culture.

lawlolawl

machiavellianme wrote: »

I thought this would be a thread about how Louise O'Neill rapes "culture" with her turgid drivel.
To think that Ireland once boasted some excellent journalists and have a phenomenal record for literature, she really knows how to defile our reputation with her assault of the written word.

To be fair, she is probably just regurgitating whatever nonsense ideals she learned in whatever college she went to to study to be a journalist.

ash23

But wibbs is sexually assaulting a woman or girl really ok to dismiss as dickhead behaviour? Just because it's in a club or pub? If I were in work and a colleague came up behind me and groped my backside and grabbed my breast would he be a dickhead or would he have sexually assaulted me? If he pulled up my skirt in front of the entire office is he just a dickhead or is he sexually harassing and humiliating me?

If it wouldn't be acceptable in work or school or a similar setting because it's sexual assault then why do we trivialise it when it's in a social setting?

It's not paranoia to tell a young girl that someone fondling her bottom or breast is sexual assault. It is and it shouldn't be passed off as someone being a dickhead.

whaleofaday

To go back to the OP. I cringe when some women take the extreme stance that "all men are potential rapists" or suggest that we should re-enact a film depicting a man being gang raped. All that does is cheapen the very real point that some women do not feel safe in their community. And I'm sure that some men do not feel safe in their community either. Violence against men happens too and should not be swept under the carpet or made out to be less serious than violence towards women.

I am a woman. I have been raped. I have also experienced men who show a serious lack of respect and boundaries around women. It happens.

However, I have a problem with the term "rape culture". I can see what it is trying to achieve and I respect other peoples' right to choose whatever language they like to describe their reality, but I think using that term to describe a range of problematic behaviours creates defensiveness and does more to shut down discussion than it does to create awareness.

How then do we talk about the very real issue that some women feel that they are not safe in our society?

Rape is very real. It probably happens more often than any of us would like to think about. But I think it is the "micro-aggressions" that people experience in their everyday lives which create a culture of disrespect and a sense of fear. The post by ash23 describes what women (and men - some women behave equally badly around men) have to tolerate in everyday situations. Over the course of years this can add up to a general sense of being viewed as a piece of meat, of boundaries being regularly overstepped, of not being listened to or treated with respect and a fear of escalation.

Is it really so hard to imagine how women might not feel safe in our culture, having endured countless episodes of men shoving their desires onto them? Dick pics, catcalling, touching, leering...these are not harmless no matter which gender is doing it. (I'm trying really hard to acknowledge that men experience these things at the hands of women too).

I have sons and a daughter. I have been teaching them about consent and respecting boundaries since they were really small...from not forcing them to kiss relatives that they don't want to, not making them hug me when they don't want to, teaching them all that when someone doesn't want to do something that it's not ok to try and persuade or manipulate them into saying yes (one of my sons does this if the other doesn't want to play a game). Unfortunately the adults in our kids' lives often demonstrate that consent and boundaries are not important so it needs to be talked about on a wider scale.

Those of you saying that rape culture doesn't exist, can you at least acknowledge that some of us have experienced behaviour which might lead us to feel fearful and unsafe?

Bonniedog

I think Ash's post is more accurate than O'Neill's ideologically driven piece.

I have 20 year old daughter and I have no idea to be honest whether she experiences that sort of scummbaggery. I would hope that if she did that someone would intervene.

I know myself and brothers and cousins would. And have. And we are by no means UFC fighters!

um7y1h83ge06nx

O'Neill doesn't appear to get much support on here.

Is it fair to say that a lot of support on social media comes from her friends and peers rather than the average Irish man or woman?

Still that's enough to keep her in the public eye.

conorhal

ash23 wrote: »

But wibbs is sexually assaulting a woman or girl really ok to dismiss as dickhead behaviour? Just because it's in a club or pub? If I were in work and a colleague came up behind me and groped my backside and grabbed my breast would he be a dickhead or would he have sexually assaulted me? If he pulled up my skirt in front of the entire office is he just a dickhead or is he sexually harassing and humiliating me?

If it wouldn't be acceptable in work or school or a similar setting because it's sexual assault then why so we trivialise it when it's in a social setting?

It's not paranoia to tell a young girl that someone fondling her bottom or breast is sexual assault. It is and it shouldn't be passed off as someone being a dickhead.

Sexual 'assault' is a loaded term, I'd class that as sexual harrasment. When it comes to such debates there is a noticeable tendency on the feminist side to escalate language in a manner that's not helpful, proportionate or even accurate. Hence the talk about rape culture 'hysteria'.
There are boundaries, every adult should be aware of where they are, one would have hoped others around your daughter would intervened and come to her defense and the individual in question should have been literally booted out of the bar. I think in such situations where an individual feels harrassed they should report it to staff immediately.

ligerdub

Emmeline Whining Cork wrote: »

O'Neill doesn't appear to get much support on here.

Is it fair to say that a lot of support on social media comes from her friends and peers rather than the average Irish man or woman?

Still that's enough to keep her in the public eye.

I don't think either examples are good examples to support or refute how respected her views are. This thread is mainly centred around those who find her a dreadful character, and I'm all for that. Choo choo.

ash23

The definition of sexual assault would cover unwanted groping which is why I used the term. It wasn't trying to be sensationalist.
Catcalling, lewd remarks etc is sexual harassment. As soon as it is physical it is sexual assault.

And we should call a spade a spade. If we did maybe the people who grope as a person walks past would not do it if they grew up knowing it's sexual assault and not just a bit of craic or a laugh and that they could potentially get themselves into real trouble over it.

Wibbs

whaleofaday wrote: »

Those of you saying that rape culture doesn't exist, can you at least acknowledge that some of us have experienced behaviour which might lead us to feel fearful and unsafe?

Of course. I certainly would. But it's one helluva leap from that to claiming Ireland is a "rape culture". Plus I would also consider growing a spine and dealing with it. Dickheads exist and we have to learn to deal with that too without going around on a hair trigger of fear.

For example young men are significantly more likely to be physically assaulted than women are and the hard stats and the casualty depts. of hospitals at weekends reflect this. When I was younger I certainly had some close calls and a couple of examples of actual contact and of course it affected me at the moments in time. However, I did not then wildly extrapolate from these encounters and conclude that Ireland was a "fearful and unsafe" place for me as a young man.

osmiumartist

ash23 wrote: »

To be fair what I've described is pretty common in varying degrees.

Rape? No.
Condoned by the wider community? No.
Rape culture? No and no.
Do you want to open a new thread about "what you've described" which isn't rape?

eviltwin

As much as I hate the whole rape culture narrative it does raise an important point about some of the behaviour women experience and how it seems to be accepted as normal. I've experienced non consentual physical contact and so have most women I know. So have a lot of men I know too but it seems to be something they are able to brush off, maybe they don't feel as threatened by it. Maybe it's because with men it tends to happen in a public place like a nightclub but for myself and other women we were alone and cornered. As a woman if a man is intimidating me I'm always wondering where it will end, will it just be the hand on my arse or will it be something more serious.

whaleofaday

Wibbs wrote: »

Plus I would also consider growing a spine and dealing with it. Dickheads exist and we have to learn to deal with that too without going around on a hair trigger of fear.

Are you suggesting that women who have been raped grow a spine and "deal with it"? Or that girls and women who have been subject to crappy behaviour from men just deal with it? How is anything going to improve if we all just brush it under the carpet and get on with life? Should we not strive to improve society for everyone?

suicide_circus

eviltwin wrote: »

As much as I hate the whole rape culture narrative it does raise an important point about some of the behaviour women experience and how it seems to be accepted as normal. I've experienced non consentual physical contact and so have most women I know. So have a lot of men I know too but it seems to be something they are able to brush off, maybe they don't feel as threatened by it. Maybe it's because with men it tends to happen in a public place like a nightclub but for myself and other women we were alone and cornered. As a woman if a man is intimidating me I'm always wondering where it will end, will it just be the hand on my arse or will it be something more serious.

I think calling this behaviour rape culture (when no rape is involved) both trivialises rape and also makes it easier to brush your type of experience aside. it's a misnomer that does everyone a disservice, it's shrill hyperbole and does nothing to tackle actual rape.

whaleofaday

suicide_circus wrote: »

I think calling this behaviour rape culture (when no rape is involved) both trivialises rape and also makes it easier to brush your type of experience aside. it's a misnomer that does everyone a disservice, it's shrill hyperbole and does nothing to tackle actual rape.

Agree with this completely.

eviltwin

suicide_circus wrote: »

I think calling this behaviour rape culture (when no rape is involved) both trivialises rape and also makes it easier to brush your type of experience aside. it's a misnomer that does everyone a disservice, it's shrill hyperbole and does nothing to tackle actual rape.

I never called it rape culture. I don't like, agree or use the term but that doesn't mean we should just shut down all conversation on the kind of behaviour some people are subjected to.

ancapailldorcha

eviltwin wrote: »

I never called it rape culture. I don't like, agree or use the term but that doesn't mean we should just shut down all conversation on the kind of behaviour some people are subjected to.

Of course. The problem is the term "rape culture" implies that our culture approves of rape in much the same manner as it does of drinking, sex, etc.... The term is loaded and carries with it the suggestion that men think rape isn't a big deal or that they don't care about it. The problem is that there is big money to be made in fostering division and hatemongering. For good examples, look at Milo Yiannopoulos, Jessica Valenti and, of course, Ms. O'Neil.

Wibbs

whaleofaday wrote: »

Are you suggesting that women who have been raped grow a spine and "deal with it"?

Nope. However sooner or later and it may take years, but they have to move past it(which does not mean trivialising it BTW), or be forever defined as a victim and you know who wins then? The bastard rapist.

Or that girls and women who have been subject to crappy behaviour from men just deal with it?

Yes. Pretty much. Shít happens and it's crap when it does, but as an adult you are then faced with two choices; define oneself and those around by such things, or see things as they are, a minority of idiots who should be ignored/reported/shamed and not let such idiots define you or the society you live in. For me there is far too much celebration of victimhood going on and worse it's getting.

How is anything going to improve if we all just brush it under the carpet and get on with life? Should we not strive to improve society for everyone?

Dealing with it personally does not mean not striving to reduce antisocial behaviour in our culture.

eviltwin

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Of course. The problem is the term "rape culture" implies that our culture approves of rape in much the same manner as it does of drinking, sex, etc.... The term is loaded and carries with it the suggestion that men think rape isn't a big deal or that they don't care about it. The problem is that there is big money to be made in fostering division and hatemongering. For good examples, look at Milo Yiannopoulos, Jessica Valenti and, of course, Ms. O'Neil.

I agree. But while we are arguing about phrasing the reality of what people have experienced is lost and that's a shame.

ligerdub

Collective Münchausen syndrome born out of the proliferation of social media.

osmiumartist

eviltwin wrote: »

I never called it rape culture. I don't like, agree or use the term but that doesn't mean we should just shut down all conversation on the kind of behaviour some people are subjected to.

It does when we are discussing "Louise O'Neill on rape culture." No rape, no culture = no rape culture.

Den14

suicide_circus wrote:

I think calling this behaviour rape culture (when no rape is involved) both trivialises rape and also makes it easier to brush your type of experience aside. it's a misnomer that does everyone a disservice, it's shrill hyperbole and does nothing to tackle actual rape.

Nail on head. The concept is maddening and is a lucrative avenue to draw up attention and hysteria. Sure absolutely there are serious problems that need to be sorted out and loutish behaviour cannot be condoned. To put it all into one little neat box is abhorrent and downright ludicrous

gizmo555

Dr Jakub wrote: »

We have a murder culture in this country. However you don't have to commit murder to be part of the problem. All men are murderers.

This was literally the position taken by the Irish Times in its asinine series on "How To Be A Man", published in September: all men are murderers and rapists.

On what a man is: ‘I could murder, kill, rape’

Tony Bates (clinical psychologist, in his 60s) . . . I could murder, I could kill, I could rape. I’m no different to guys who have done those things. I know that’s in me. And I feel it’s in all of us . . .

ancapailldorcha

eviltwin wrote: »

I agree. But while we are arguing about phrasing the reality of what people have experienced is lost and that's a shame.

If you're referring to calm, reasoned discussion then I'm afraid that that's currently experiencing a steep decline.

Call Me Jimmy

Wibbs wrote: »

Nope. However sooner or later and it may take years, but they have to move past it(which does not mean trivialising it BTW), or be forever defined as a victim and you know who wins then? The bastard rapist. Yes. Pretty much. Shít happens and it's crap when it does, but as an adult you are then faced with two choices; define oneself and those around by such things, or see things as they are, a minority of idiots who should be ignored/reported/shamed and not let such idiots define you or the society you live in. For me there is far too much celebration of victimhood going on and worse it's getting.

Dealing with it personally does not mean not striving to reduce antisocial behaviour in our culture.

It reminds me of any time men I've known have gotten their heads kicked in. Yes they got support and compassion but ultimately they had to deal with it, they must have had fear for a while after it too.

The key point is they did not want mandatory anti-violence training for all or to control language and disregard statistics and rationality. If they took up a campaign and had the idea everyone is now violent and 'society must strive to get better', they'd be worse off, and society would be worse off. If they called people out anytime they said something like 'that Tubridy has such a punchable face!' I'd worry for their mental health. Instead they recognised it wasn't colourful language or every person in the country that beat them up, it was a couple of disturbed individuals - which are a constant in any society throughout time - and they accepted that fact.

ligerdub

gizmo555 wrote: »

This was literally the position taken by the Irish Times in its asinine series on "How To Be A Man", published in September: all men are murderers and rapists.

On what a man is: ‘I could murder, kill, rape’

Tony Bates (clinical psychologist, in his 60s) . . . I could murder, I could kill, I could rape. I’m no different to guys who have done those things. I know that’s in me. And I feel it’s in all of us . . .

Bates is especially guilty in his actions there. As a clinical psychologist he could use the angle of emotionless analysis of criminal acts, and rather than analysing criminals as animals, who do things incomprehensible to average human beings, he could view those acts as those which could be taken by anybody, weaknesses of the human condition if you will. In the realm of criminology that could be considered professional, empathetic even. To spread those for the purpose of projecting those actions on those who have not committed such crimes, and to preach it as a social narrative, is the exact opposite, and a very wrong approach to take. I refuse to take part in the collective responsibility of actions taken by a very minor number of people, and in which I do not engage in.

It's funny, the same people who ask men to take collective responsibility as a man, are the same people who call people out on asking the Muslim community to self-police their people from committing acts of violence. Not that I think they should, it's just I don't understand the hypocrisy of misandrists like O'Neill.

osmiumartist

gizmo555 wrote: »

Tony Bates (clinical psychologist, in his 60s) . . . I could murder, I could kill, I could rape. I’m no different to guys who have done those things. I know that’s in me. And I feel it’s in all of us . . .

The weird thing is I don't see how this helps feminists' arguments. If every man is capable of doing whatever one man has done, then the exact same applies to all the potential Myra Hindleys out there.

Digital Solitude

For unwanted physical contact ladies, where do you bring consent from?

I know this is a tired old line, but if you're in a club, and some guy starts chatting you up, you accept a drink but don't plan on going anywhere with him, and he touches your ass. That's sexual assault of course. Same thing happens, this is with a guy you would like to go on with, he touches your ass. Still sexual assault, correct?

I'm not talking about catcalling and randomers touching you as you walk past, that's never okay.

Wibbs

osmiumartist wrote: »

The weird thing is I don't see how this helps feminists' arguments. If every man is capable of doing whatever one man has done, then the exact same applies to all the potential Myra Hindleys out there.

Actually if you read into that dreadful case, it's often suggested that it was her father who brutalised her and Brady added to it. Still men's fault dontchaknow.

professore

Louise O'Neill and her ilk pick a topic, blow it out of all proportion, and then blame all men for it, and portray all women as the victims. They also don't propose any solution other than to tell all men in a preachy manner to stop being rapists.

Absolutely no difference in attitude to racist groups like the KKK. Try making a documentary blaming all crime in America on black culture or IRA killings on Irish Culture and see how far you get.

There IS a problem with SOME men inappropriately touching women, and some women do it too to a lesser extent. I think in a nightclub situation they should go straight to security or their friends if it happens. Most men are not like this. Ironically the ones who do all the inappropriate comments and touching are often more successful with women, and the whole 50 shades thing didn't help.

Guess what I'm trying to say is that women are the ones with the power to change this. If the asshole was publically and privately shunned by women he wouldn't be long changing. Most guys already shun assholes like this.

Ulysses Gaze

The issue I have with a lot of modern third-wave feminists and their views on rape culture is that they almost always wilfully ignore much more blatant examples of rape culture that exist on their very doorsteps.

People on this thread have highlighted Pakistan, Congo et al as examples of where an actual culture of rape not only exists but is tolerated and borderline accepted.

You don't have to look that far from these shores to see same.

Look at the UK - Rotherham, Rochdale, Oxford, Doncaster et al. Thousands and thousands of young women systematically groomed and gang-raped over a period of a dozen years or so. With either collusion from or turning a blind eye from their specific community, the Police, Politicians and Social Services.

That, to me, is rape culture defined. A borderline acceptance of rape in a community and a mass cover-up of same.

Where were the feminist voices then? The outrage from feminists? The protest marches? Nothing. From Harriet Harman - a committed feminist voice and Senior Labour Politician? Oh lessons have been learned.

Look at Koln - same thing. Only this time German feminists went out and protested to be fair to them. And were water cannoned because Pegida were on the same march.

Is this silence because these cases are not linked to White Male Privilege and the Patriarchy?