Louise O Neill on rape culture.

The Rape of Lucretia

Up on youtube now for anyone who missed it. All looks pretty innocent to me. If that what kids want to do, let them at it I say:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYzzd5DfxaA

mzungu

osmiumartist wrote: »

The weird thing is I don't see how this helps feminists' arguments. If every man is capable of doing whatever one man has done, then the exact same applies to all the potential Myra Hindleys out there.

Indeed. The entire collective responsibility argument has a structural foundation of paper mache.

Grayson

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

The issue I have with a lot of modern third-wave feminists and their views on rape culture is that they almost always wilfully ignore much more blatant examples of rape culture that exist on their very doorsteps.

People on this thread have highlighted Pakistan, Congo et al as examples of where an actual culture of rape not only exists but is tolerated and borderline accepted.

You don't have to look that far from these shores to see same.

Look at the UK - Rotherham, Rochdale, Oxford, Doncaster et al. Thousands and thousands of young women systematically groomed and gang-raped over a period of a dozen years or so. With either collusion from or turning a blind eye from their specific community, the Police, Politicians and Social Services.

That, to me, is rape culture defined. A borderline acceptance of rape in a community and a mass cover-up of same.

Where were the feminist voices then? The outrage from feminists? The protest marches? Nothing. From Harriet Harman - a committed feminist voice and Senior Labour Politician? Oh lessons have been learned.

Look at Koln - same thing. Only this time German feminists went out and protested to be fair to them. And were water cannoned because Pegida were on the same march.

Is this silence because these cases are not linked to White Male Privilege and the Patriarchy?

It's not silence. We are all well aware of these things. I find it strange that there's a weird false equivalency there. It's possible to be against what happens in those hellholes and be against a more subtle rape culture here. It's not about choosing one over the other.

And I'm not saying all men are rapists. I'm not saying most are. But there is a very sexist undertone amongst some people. It's more visible with lad culture on campuses. If we said it existed in fraternities in the US the idea would be accepted far more than if we said it happened here. talk to girls in college. Ask them if there's a culture of fcukboys. Guys who really don't give a fcuk about women.

Do women have it better here than in Saudi or the congo or anywhere like that? Yeah. Can it still be better here? Yeah. That's the point.

Grayson

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Up on youtube now for anyone who missed it. All looks pretty innocent to me. If that what kids want to do, let them at it I say:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYzzd5DfxaA

I have no idea what that was but I liked it

mzungu

whaleofaday wrote: »

Those of you saying that rape culture doesn't exist, can you at least acknowledge that some of us have experienced behaviour which might lead us to feel fearful and unsafe?

I do not believe rape culture exists (I'll explain below) but just to be clear, the part in bold in your post was never in doubt. Of course women get hassled, sexually harassed and intimidated by arseholes. The fact that this happens was not what was being discussed in this thread.

The term rape culture and what it entails is a purely academic argument, and its definition is a society that "fosters and encourages rape by instructing citizens that it is normal and natural for sexual relations to involve aggressive behavior on the part of males." (Barnet, Sligar & Wang 2016). So my questions are, how does Irish society foster and encourage rape? And where are the instructions coming from in Irish society that tells men that it is OK to rape women? My answer is I do not believe Irish society fosters and encourages rape, nor do I believe men are instructed to do so, either. This is why I do not believe we have a rape culture in Ireland.

What has happened in this thread is that there has been an attempt to throw in other forms of sexual assault/harassment into the mix. But, as others have pointed out before in this thread, throwing these in with actual rape, and under a loaded term like "rape culture" does more harm than good.

The experiences many women have in social and private settings where they are harassed made feel intimidated does need to be addressed, no arguments there. But simply lumping it under a loaded term like "rape culture" for the shock value, in the hopes that it will create a change, is a fairly poor way of going about it and does a disservice to those who experience it.

Ulysses Gaze

Grayson wrote: »

It's not silence. We are all well aware of these things. I find it strange that there's a weird false equivalency there. It's possible to be against what happens in those hellholes and be against a more subtle rape culture here. It's not about choosing one over the other.

And I'm not saying all men are rapists. I'm not saying most are. But there is a very sexist undertone amongst some people. It's more visible with lad culture on campuses. If we said it existed in fraternities in the US the idea would be accepted far more than if we said it happened here. talk to girls in college. Ask them if there's a culture of fcukboys. Guys who really don't give a fcuk about women.

Do women have it better here than in Saudi or the congo or anywhere like that? Yeah. Can it still be better here? Yeah. That's the point.

My point in bringing up Rotherham, Cologne et al is not a way of undermining critical analysis of subtle sexism or rape culture. Or placing less emphasis on calling it out where it exists. Because it does exist.

My point is merely to highlight the blatant hypocrisy of the likes of Lindy West, Laurie Penny, Jessica Valenti and Amanda Marcotte who are quick to tweet or write about incidents like the Duke Lacrosse case but will not even come close to vocally condemning the outrageous mass sex abuse happening on their, in Laurie Penny's case, doorstep.

You say that it is not silence. I disagree. It is silence. Outright condemnation of all forms of rape culture, subtle or overt, is necessary.

And I don't see enough of that from Third-Wave Feminist writers, bloggers and activists.

Grayson

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

My point in bringing up Rotherham, Cologne et al is not a way of undermining critical analysis of subtle sexism or rape culture. Or placing less emphasis on calling it out where it exists. Because it does exist.

My point is merely to highlight the blatant hypocrisy of the likes of Lindy West, Laurie Penny, Jessica Valenti and Amanda Marcotte who are quick to tweet or write about incidents like the Duke Lacrosse case but will not even come close to vocally condemning the outrageous mass sex abuse happening on their, in Laurie Penny's case, doorstep.

You say that it is not silence. I disagree. It is silence. Outright condemnation of all forms of rape culture, subtle or overt, is necessary.

And I don't see enough of that from Third-Wave Feminist writers, bloggers and activists.

I'll agree that a lot of these writers are intensely irritating. Take Jessica Valenti for example. About one sixth of what she says I agree with. The rest just irritates me. I say irritate but really it's more like pisses me off. In fact she pisses me off so much that I actually get more annoyed with myself when I agree with her now.

However I don't think these women care any less about what happens far away. It's just that this is what they write about. It's like saying that an oncologist doesn't care about people with tropical diseases. Sure they do, it's just that they specialise in one area.

Widdershins

It struck me from reading some of her articles, that her family seem used to histrionics from Louise. I think it's one of those cases where anyone who knows her well probably takes her with a big pinch of salt and a lot of tolerance but everyone else has to fight with mixed feelings because she's speaking from a respectable platform normally given to fairly stable people, yet she's not really talking calmly and objectively. The media giving a platform to random people so they can mouth about their bugbears and turn them into a major issue without any objectivity is a fairly recent practice ( opinion columns in the past tended to be more measured than the stuff Louise churns out and they used to be tempered with a bit of humour )

midlandsmissus

Would dozens of men lining up to shake a convicted sexual assaulter's hand in Listowel, be a symptom of rape culture?

As a woman I would say that there are alot of good men in Ireland, but there are some very bad men, and every woman I know including myself has been sexually
assaulted, and I am counting S.a. as anything more than grabbing an ass in this instance. So in a country where women often feel unsafe, harassed and intimidated, conversations definitely need to be had.

midlandsmissus

For example, what I would say My least serious example of sexual assault would be: being grabbed by the vagina. And it's happened to numerous others that I know.

My boss recounted a tale to me of being at a social event in a hotel, and a man from a different group came up and grabbed her by her vagina, and she was still shocked and upset telling me. And I told her the story of when it happened to me too. I was in a nightclub, and a man just walked past, and shoved his hand right between my legs and grabbed my vagina.

We are just expected to take it. Interestingly, I've seen now that a man on a plane has been imprisoned for five months for touching a girl's vagina sitting next to him, so I think more girls will be confident about being able to charge these people.

Widdershins

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Would dozens of men lining up to shake a convicted sexual assaulter's hand in Listowel, be a symptom of rape culture?

As a woman I would say that there are alot of good men in Ireland, but there are some very bad men, and every woman I know including myself has been sexually
assaulted, and I am counting S.a. as anything more than grabbing an ass in this instance. So in a country where women often feel unsafe, harassed and intimidated, conversations definitely need to be had.

When I read about the case in Tralee I was disgusted but don't forget about all of the men who weren't there, all of the men who despise the actions of those who were. The ones who were were probably there more because they think their mate can do no wrong. They are idiots but they were hardly out in force representing the people of Kerry or Ireland.

I've been assaulted. I've also been stood up for, by men. And I know men with a rough, uncouth sense of humour who'd spout the kind of drivel already mentioned earlier, like ''I'd smash her back door in'' (not in front of me-which tells you it's bravado and they know it's wrong- but you overhear things), and the same men recently discussed taking the law into their own hands when a local woman's rapist was released from jail after a pathetically short sentence. (sentencing is another issue). Out of all of this I've taken the following: a big mouth and a rough exterior means nothing.
And men deserve better than Louise's dark, suspicious minded, prejudiced attacks.

osmiumartist

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Would dozens of men lining up to shake a convicted sexual assaulter's hand in Listowel, be a symptom of rape culture?

Not a rape. "Dozens" of men out of over 2 million.
So anything that twenty or so people do is representative of Irish culture, yeah?

Wibbs

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Would dozens of men lining up to shake a convicted sexual assaulter's hand in Listowel, be a symptom of rape culture?

Me. Earlier today wrote: »

that case in Kerry where a bunch of morons shook the hand of a convicted rapist. Rape culture right there… Only sorry, no, more like small town parish clannishness. When that story broke the overwhelming response from Irish people across the board was public revulsion and vilification of those muppets and a groundswell of support for the victim. Yep, must be a "rape culture" alright.

In an actual "rape culture" the chances of him been seen as a criminal, never mind being tried at all, never mind convicted would be minimal and the hand shaking would have been supported in the wider Irish community. He went to gaol and his band of parish pump supporters were roundly vilified. Oh and he'll need to be kept apart from the general prison population because they'll be out to get him.

Wibbs

midlandsmissus wrote: »

So in a country where women often feel unsafe, harassed and intimidated, conversations definitely need to be had.

As a man in this country I am significantly more likely to be physically assaulted in my lifetime than a woman. Does a conversation need to be had on that? Of course and we have laws and police and courts(though as Widdershins notes we need far more dialogue on sentencing) and politics to debate this. However, even though my chances of being the subject of a kicking are high enough(and have had a few incidents in my time), this does not mean I see all men as potential thugs as it's a tiny minority in particular circumstances, nor do I walk the streets in a state of fear and intimidation and I certainly don't consider Ireland to be a particularly violent society. Of course we can always improve, but there's no need to go full paranoid and over the top about it either. Have I been the victim of assault? Yes. Do I see myself as a victim? Hell no.

Grayson

osmiumartist wrote: »

Not a rape. "Dozens" of men out of over 2 million.
So anything that twenty or so people do is representative of Irish culture, yeah?

Saying rape culture exists in Ireland isn't the same as saying it's irish culture. Like I said about Goth culture. It exists but it's not representative of Irish culture.

I think that's one of the biggest bugbears in this discussion. The vast majority of Irish guys are decent blokes. You won't find any disagreement with that from anyone here (I'm sure you'll find some third wave feminist writer that thinks that but they aren't representative of all feminists).

I have no idea how many there are but if we say that it's one in a hundred men that's small enough that every bloke you know could be great and yet there would still be a large number of assholes out there.

Specialun

midlandsmissus wrote: »

For example, what I would say My least serious example of sexual assault would be: being grabbed by the vagina. And it's happened to numerous others that I know.

My boss recounted a tale to me of being at a social event in a hotel, and a man from a different group came up and grabbed her by her vagina, and she was still shocked and upset telling me. And I told her the story of when it happened to me too. I was in a nightclub, and a man just walked past, and shoved his hand right between my legs and grabbed my vagina.

We are just expected to take it. Interestingly, I've seen now that a man on a plane has been imprisoned for five months for touching a girl's vagina sitting next to him, so I think more girls will be confident about being able to charge these people.

Who said you're expectated to take it?

Widdershins

Grayson wrote: »

Saying rape culture exists in Ireland isn't the same as saying it's irish culture. Like I said about Goth culture. It exists but it's not representative of Irish culture.

I think that's one of the biggest bugbears in this discussion. The vast majority of Irish guys are decent blokes. You won't find any disagreement with that from anyone here (I'm sure you'll find some third wave feminist writer that thinks that but they aren't representative of all feminists).

I have no idea how many there are but if we say that it's one in a hundred men that's small enough that every bloke you know could be great and yet there would still be a large number of assholes out there.

1 in 100 might be thieves, wife beaters, child abusers, or otherwise nasty characters but we don't talk about nasty-behaviour culture of any kind. Ok, thieving isn't joked about in the way women are, but I don't believe joking equals intent OR tolerance of sexual assault.

Tigger

Specialun wrote: »

Who said you're expectated to take it?

If I saw someone do that I would deck them
If a mate told me they did it I'd spit on them and not bother with than again (althought I'd like to think that my mates are better than that)
Can't believe you think you have to take it

Tigger

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Would dozens of men lining up to shake a convicted sexual assaulter's hand in Listowel, be a symptom of rape culture?

As a woman I would say that there are alot of good men in Ireland, but there are some very bad men, and every woman I know including myself has been sexually
assaulted, and I am counting S.a. as anything more than grabbing an ass in this instance. So in a country where women often feel unsafe, harassed and intimidated, conversations definitely need to be had.

Anyone that I discussed that with way shocked
We put it down to the Catholic Church, is the church an example or rape culture ?
Probably

hollymartins

I see a tv critic commented on Louise O'Neills outfit during one interview in the show, her bare shoulders distracted him. LON has gone to town with outrage #shouldergate

I have to admit I was distracted by this outfit too but only because it looked awful.

I don't think she was interested in nuances of the law and why a jury may find a man not guilty of rape. It was almost like the victim should be believed without question or consideration given to possible false allegations.

AnGaelach

Grayson wrote: »

It's not silence. We are all well aware of these things. I find it strange that there's a weird false equivalency there. It's possible to be against what happens in those hellholes and be against a more subtle rape culture here. It's not about choosing one over the other.

Yet the silence is deafening.

Grayson wrote: »

And I'm not saying all men are rapists. I'm not saying most are. But there is a very sexist undertone amongst some people. It's more visible with lad culture on campuses. If we said it existed in fraternities in the US the idea would be accepted far more than if we said it happened here. talk to girls in college. Ask them if there's a culture of fcukboys. Guys who really don't give a fcuk about women.

There's also a culture of sluttiness among certain groups of women, should I now claim women are projecting and protecting a slut culture? Don't be stupid. There's no such thing as a rape culture in Ireland.

Grayson wrote: »

Do women have it better here than in Saudi or the congo or anywhere like that? Yeah. Can it still be better here? Yeah. That's the point.

How, exactly? By going up to every single male on a campus and polling their opinions on women? By opening up Campus NSA? By trying to browbeat everyone who does something I find offensive?

People who talk about rape culture in Ireland are nothing more than whiny shítbirds and men trying to get laid by scoring nice guy points.

coffee_cake

Tigger wrote: »

If I saw someone do that I would deck them
I

Doesn't sound like anyone did deck them though does it
Instead we have guys lining up to say "well *i* wouldn't do it so it doesn't count"

IvyTheTerrible

One thing I've remarked in this thread is that if we want people to be able to talk about assaults they've seen or been a victim of, we need to be teaching young people the correct names for body parts. Vulva /= vagina.

osmiumartist

Grayson wrote: »

Saying rape culture exists in Ireland isn't the same as saying it's irish culture. Like I said about Goth culture. It exists but it's not representative of Irish culture.

Then it isn't particularly descriptive of any men outside those in the pre-defined "rape culture". It has no connection to the general population. Can't have it both ways.
All men are potential rapists because of the "rape culture" of under 1% of the population.
Sure.

noaddedsugar

Wibbs wrote: »

As a man in this country I am significantly more likely to be physically assaulted in my lifetime than a woman. Does a conversation need to be had on that? Of course and we have laws and police and courts(though as Widdershins notes we need far more dialogue on sentencing) and politics to debate this. However, even though my chances of being the subject of a kicking are high enough(and have had a few incidents in my time), this does not mean I see all men as potential thugs as it's a tiny minority in particular circumstances, nor do I walk the streets in a state of fear and intimidation and I certainly don't consider Ireland to be a particularly violent society. Of course we can always improve, but there's no need to go full paranoid and over the top about it either. Have I been the victim of assault? Yes. Do I see myself as a victim? Hell no.

Women tend to get low level harassment a lot though, maybe men do too I don't know. As a woman I know that all those times I have been intimated by men, them touching me against my wishes, making unwanted comments about my appearance, not taking no for an answer when I don't want to talk to them etc all add up to a slight distrust of men I don't know, approaching me in certain situations. My uncomfortableness in certain situations doesn't come from a fear of being seriously assaulted or raped, it comes from just not wanting to be put in the position where I have to say no repeatedly or I have to take a hand off my body etc. I don't like it and I don't want it. I just want to do whatever it is I set out to do that day like read my book in the park or have a drink.

I don't walk around being scared everyday, I don't feel like a victim, I'm not paranoid but I would be stupid not to have learnt from previous interactions with various men and to not have my guard up when men I don't know approach me in certain situations.

lawlolawl

bluewolf wrote: »

Doesn't sound like anyone did deck them though does it
Instead we have guys lining up to say "well *i* wouldn't do it so it doesn't count"

I vote we deck every man in the country, just to make sure.

Am i a feminist yet?

AnGaelach

noaddedsugar wrote: »

Women tend to get low level harassment a lot though, maybe men do too I don't know. As a woman I know that all those times I have been intimated by men, them touching me against my wishes, making unwanted comments about my appearance, not taking no for an answer when I don't want to talk to them etc all add up to a slight distrust of men I don't know, approaching me in certain situations. My uncomfortableness in certain situations doesn't come from a fear of being seriously assaulted or raped, it comes from just not wanting to be put in the position where I have to say no repeatedly or I have to take a hand off my body etc. I don't like it and I don't want it. I just want to do whatever it is I set out to do that day like read my book in the park or have a drink.

Of course there's some creepy ****ers who won't stop touching women or harassing them, but that doesn't mean you can say there's a rape culture. The chances are, if you walk up to some random bloke and say "this guy is harassing me", that guy will tell the person bugging you to fook off. I'd personally give it about 98% certainty that Person B will tell Person A to get out.

We'll give an example under the premise that we actually do have a rape culture. You're in a bar, Person A is being creepy. You tell Person B that the guy is being creepy and harassing you. If there was a rape culture, Person B would applaud Person A for his efforts.

cantdecide

As an aside, Louise O'Neill getting air time is proof (if we needed it, which we don't) that patriarchy is a myth.

MyPeopleDrankTheSoup

scarleh on ya posting in this thread while Ireland bet the All Blacks

Olishi4

There's a man in my circle who has made a few derogatory comments towards me. Nothing crazy but definitely crossing the line. I was out with him and his wife and we were in a club. She couldn't hear me speaking through the music and she gave me a little slap across the face, not too hard mind but hard enough to say it was out of order. The minute, she did it, she took a step back and said "oh my god why did I just do that to you?"! Anyway I can tell from subtle things that she says and body language that she does not like me. Was she victim blaming me for her husband's comments, that may be considered "rape culture"? This is one of the reasons why defining certain interactions as "rape culture" does not work. They are both a bit crazy so I'll keep my distance and that's it.

Imo the problem with "rape culture" is that it is basically saying that it is only men and where a lot of men are not guilty of this behaviour. I have a friend who was molested by a childhood friend's mother when she was 9 and one of the things that she said to me was, that the thing that has most hurt her, was that when she did talk about it, that it was played down because it was a woman and the nature of the assault was played down. She has always felt that she wasn't heard. Another reason why "rape culture" should not be a thing. This girl was subject to serious sexual assault where "rape" is not considered a possibility.

I could give a lot of antidotes of friends who have confided in me of situations where they have been sexually or physically abused where women were either the culprits or active accessories but I feel, it's not my place to share their complete stories here publicly.

There is an issue where some people do not understand or do not care about another persons boundaries and it is played down in general. I was groped myself, completely randomly, walking through town by a man. I was in complete shock and it just so happened that the first person I saw was a lad from college. I told him what happened and he thought it was funny and made a joke of it.

I think rather than defining something as "rape culture", it is more important to instill personal boundaries in people and to give people an understanding of what is assault, sexual or just aggressive physical assault. If people or children are not getting this at home, then society need a new approach but I don't think "rape culture" is the answer to that.

I personally have had very healthy boundaries instilled in me from my family and this has allowed me to understand that sometimes we have to deal with ****ty people and I know if I need to and someone crosses the line that I am able to report them although I am aware that in some circumstances that this doesn't always work or isnt always a realistic option with any worth. I think that somewhere, maybe through school, that the best approach is to ensure that people are made more aware of others and their own personal boundaries.