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Child Item

Louise O Neill on rape culture.

Ralf and Florian

She presented a documentary on rape culture during the week on RTE which focused on the issue of sexual assault against females. It's interesting to note her response to a (male) follower would tweeted that it would be hilarious to see a remake of Deliverance featuring "pissed up dickheads on a drunken stag". For anyone who's not seen the movie Deliverance its about three city dwellers who go for a weekend fishing to what could be described as a backwoods community. Central to the storyline is when they are held captive and one of them raped by a bunch of rednecks.

https://twitter.com/oneilllo/status/794195404145442816

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eviltwin

suicide_circus wrote: »

I think calling this behaviour rape culture (when no rape is involved) both trivialises rape and also makes it easier to brush your type of experience aside. it's a misnomer that does everyone a disservice, it's shrill hyperbole and does nothing to tackle actual rape.

I never called it rape culture. I don't like, agree or use the term but that doesn't mean we should just shut down all conversation on the kind of behaviour some people are subjected to.

whaleofaday

suicide_circus wrote: »

I think calling this behaviour rape culture (when no rape is involved) both trivialises rape and also makes it easier to brush your type of experience aside. it's a misnomer that does everyone a disservice, it's shrill hyperbole and does nothing to tackle actual rape.

Agree with this completely.

suicide_circus

eviltwin wrote: »

As much as I hate the whole rape culture narrative it does raise an important point about some of the behaviour women experience and how it seems to be accepted as normal. I've experienced non consentual physical contact and so have most women I know. So have a lot of men I know too but it seems to be something they are able to brush off, maybe they don't feel as threatened by it. Maybe it's because with men it tends to happen in a public place like a nightclub but for myself and other women we were alone and cornered. As a woman if a man is intimidating me I'm always wondering where it will end, will it just be the hand on my arse or will it be something more serious.

I think calling this behaviour rape culture (when no rape is involved) both trivialises rape and also makes it easier to brush your type of experience aside. it's a misnomer that does everyone a disservice, it's shrill hyperbole and does nothing to tackle actual rape.

whaleofaday

Wibbs wrote: »

Plus I would also consider growing a spine and dealing with it. Dickheads exist and we have to learn to deal with that too without going around on a hair trigger of fear.

Are you suggesting that women who have been raped grow a spine and "deal with it"? Or that girls and women who have been subject to crappy behaviour from men just deal with it? How is anything going to improve if we all just brush it under the carpet and get on with life? Should we not strive to improve society for everyone?

eviltwin

As much as I hate the whole rape culture narrative it does raise an important point about some of the behaviour women experience and how it seems to be accepted as normal. I've experienced non consentual physical contact and so have most women I know. So have a lot of men I know too but it seems to be something they are able to brush off, maybe they don't feel as threatened by it. Maybe it's because with men it tends to happen in a public place like a nightclub but for myself and other women we were alone and cornered. As a woman if a man is intimidating me I'm always wondering where it will end, will it just be the hand on my arse or will it be something more serious.

osmiumartist

ash23 wrote: »

To be fair what I've described is pretty common in varying degrees.

Rape? No.
Condoned by the wider community? No.
Rape culture? No and no.
Do you want to open a new thread about "what you've described" which isn't rape?

Wibbs

whaleofaday wrote: »

Those of you saying that rape culture doesn't exist, can you at least acknowledge that some of us have experienced behaviour which might lead us to feel fearful and unsafe?

Of course. I certainly would. But it's one helluva leap from that to claiming Ireland is a "rape culture". Plus I would also consider growing a spine and dealing with it. Dickheads exist and we have to learn to deal with that too without going around on a hair trigger of fear.

For example young men are significantly more likely to be physically assaulted than women are and the hard stats and the casualty depts. of hospitals at weekends reflect this. When I was younger I certainly had some close calls and a couple of examples of actual contact and of course it affected me at the moments in time. However, I did not then wildly extrapolate from these encounters and conclude that Ireland was a "fearful and unsafe" place for me as a young man.

ash23

The definition of sexual assault would cover unwanted groping which is why I used the term. It wasn't trying to be sensationalist.
Catcalling, lewd remarks etc is sexual harassment. As soon as it is physical it is sexual assault.

And we should call a spade a spade. If we did maybe the people who grope as a person walks past would not do it if they grew up knowing it's sexual assault and not just a bit of craic or a laugh and that they could potentially get themselves into real trouble over it.

ligerdub

Emmeline Whining Cork wrote: »

O'Neill doesn't appear to get much support on here.

Is it fair to say that a lot of support on social media comes from her friends and peers rather than the average Irish man or woman?

Still that's enough to keep her in the public eye.

I don't think either examples are good examples to support or refute how respected her views are. This thread is mainly centred around those who find her a dreadful character, and I'm all for that. Choo choo.

conorhal

ash23 wrote: »

But wibbs is sexually assaulting a woman or girl really ok to dismiss as dickhead behaviour? Just because it's in a club or pub? If I were in work and a colleague came up behind me and groped my backside and grabbed my breast would he be a dickhead or would he have sexually assaulted me? If he pulled up my skirt in front of the entire office is he just a dickhead or is he sexually harassing and humiliating me?

If it wouldn't be acceptable in work or school or a similar setting because it's sexual assault then why so we trivialise it when it's in a social setting?

It's not paranoia to tell a young girl that someone fondling her bottom or breast is sexual assault. It is and it shouldn't be passed off as someone being a dickhead.

Sexual 'assault' is a loaded term, I'd class that as sexual harrasment. When it comes to such debates there is a noticeable tendency on the feminist side to escalate language in a manner that's not helpful, proportionate or even accurate. Hence the talk about rape culture 'hysteria'.
There are boundaries, every adult should be aware of where they are, one would have hoped others around your daughter would intervened and come to her defense and the individual in question should have been literally booted out of the bar. I think in such situations where an individual feels harrassed they should report it to staff immediately.

um7y1h83ge06nx

O'Neill doesn't appear to get much support on here.

Is it fair to say that a lot of support on social media comes from her friends and peers rather than the average Irish man or woman?

Still that's enough to keep her in the public eye.

Bonniedog

I think Ash's post is more accurate than O'Neill's ideologically driven piece.

I have 20 year old daughter and I have no idea to be honest whether she experiences that sort of scummbaggery. I would hope that if she did that someone would intervene.

I know myself and brothers and cousins would. And have. And we are by no means UFC fighters!

whaleofaday

To go back to the OP. I cringe when some women take the extreme stance that "all men are potential rapists" or suggest that we should re-enact a film depicting a man being gang raped. All that does is cheapen the very real point that some women do not feel safe in their community. And I'm sure that some men do not feel safe in their community either. Violence against men happens too and should not be swept under the carpet or made out to be less serious than violence towards women.

I am a woman. I have been raped. I have also experienced men who show a serious lack of respect and boundaries around women. It happens.

However, I have a problem with the term "rape culture". I can see what it is trying to achieve and I respect other peoples' right to choose whatever language they like to describe their reality, but I think using that term to describe a range of problematic behaviours creates defensiveness and does more to shut down discussion than it does to create awareness.

How then do we talk about the very real issue that some women feel that they are not safe in our society?

Rape is very real. It probably happens more often than any of us would like to think about. But I think it is the "micro-aggressions" that people experience in their everyday lives which create a culture of disrespect and a sense of fear. The post by ash23 describes what women (and men - some women behave equally badly around men) have to tolerate in everyday situations. Over the course of years this can add up to a general sense of being viewed as a piece of meat, of boundaries being regularly overstepped, of not being listened to or treated with respect and a fear of escalation.

Is it really so hard to imagine how women might not feel safe in our culture, having endured countless episodes of men shoving their desires onto them? Dick pics, catcalling, touching, leering...these are not harmless no matter which gender is doing it. (I'm trying really hard to acknowledge that men experience these things at the hands of women too).

I have sons and a daughter. I have been teaching them about consent and respecting boundaries since they were really small...from not forcing them to kiss relatives that they don't want to, not making them hug me when they don't want to, teaching them all that when someone doesn't want to do something that it's not ok to try and persuade or manipulate them into saying yes (one of my sons does this if the other doesn't want to play a game). Unfortunately the adults in our kids' lives often demonstrate that consent and boundaries are not important so it needs to be talked about on a wider scale.

Those of you saying that rape culture doesn't exist, can you at least acknowledge that some of us have experienced behaviour which might lead us to feel fearful and unsafe?

ash23

But wibbs is sexually assaulting a woman or girl really ok to dismiss as dickhead behaviour? Just because it's in a club or pub? If I were in work and a colleague came up behind me and groped my backside and grabbed my breast would he be a dickhead or would he have sexually assaulted me? If he pulled up my skirt in front of the entire office is he just a dickhead or is he sexually harassing and humiliating me?

If it wouldn't be acceptable in work or school or a similar setting because it's sexual assault then why do we trivialise it when it's in a social setting?

It's not paranoia to tell a young girl that someone fondling her bottom or breast is sexual assault. It is and it shouldn't be passed off as someone being a dickhead.

lawlolawl

machiavellianme wrote: »

I thought this would be a thread about how Louise O'Neill rapes "culture" with her turgid drivel.
To think that Ireland once boasted some excellent journalists and have a phenomenal record for literature, she really knows how to defile our reputation with her assault of the written word.

To be fair, she is probably just regurgitating whatever nonsense ideals she learned in whatever college she went to to study to be a journalist.

ligerdub

ash23 wrote: »

To be fair what I've described is pretty common in varying degrees. The intimidating, unwanted groping and relentless pursuing or not taking no as an answer is fairly common on a night out for women.
Last night I was out with two female friends and we ended up leaving a pub because some guy was pestering us despite us telling him we were all in relationships.
The time before that I was with my sisters and one had her bum grabbed. In fact it's more rare that nothing happens. Less and less as we get older and therefore I assume the mentality of grabbing and harassing women fades as these men mature but hearing my daughter discuss it is horrible
What do I tell her? That it's lad culture? Locker room talk/action.
Or do I teach her that it's unacceptable and disrespectful and she shouldn't tolerate it. But then she is called a man hating feminist etc so what do we do about this behaviour?

You see, although anecdotal, I can at least see the logic of this, and why it could be a problem. Completely random sexual touches would fall under the banner of a problem if it's prevalent. This is entirely different to the other nonsense spouted by those who espouse rape culture in this thread. If anything the Helen Lovejoy types in that camp are doing more harm than good to more serious arguments which suggest there could be an acceptance of inappropriate behaviour of a sexual nature.

I'm a man and I've had my fair share of arse pinches in my direction. It happens to everyone. I can see why women would find this a problem right enough, but there's no lad in the country who would turn around to his mates and say "lads, I've had enough of women pinching my arse in here, I'm outta here!". The last comment is tongue in cheek, don't hang me for it.

Wibbs

Deleted User wrote: »

No you didn't experience any of that. The is no rape culture in Ireland.

Jesus. You take the biscuit, hell, you take the whole tin. None of that was "rape". Not even close. Unpleasant? Certainly. Unwanted? Assuredly. Crass and ignorant? Most definitely. Not rape though.

Or flashing ones penis is not part of rape culture. Or something about lots of actual rape in Africa so what you experienced is fine and it apparently upsets people to suggest that what you experienced is classic rape culture.

"Classic rape culture" as laid down by scary haired liberal arts lecturers in US campuses, but a culture that encourages rape? Get off the stage. Every hour of every day in Ireland folks are playing video games with shooting and killing, the TV is chock full of all sorts of murder and mayhem and a huge percentage are watching porn on the regular too. Funny that we don't live in a war zone culture with added sexy time. Or maybe we do. No doubt someone somewhere is getting a major attack of the Feelz over all this "murder culture".

The average family car of today is capable of going nearly twice the speed limit, the telly and the interwebs is chock full of guys driving like loons, there's motor racing as a regular fixture on the TV, young men and women like to buy bits that make their cars go faster and louder and more aggressive. Do you know people who speed or drive dangerously? No doubt you do and you've probably crept over the limit yourself(if your high horse is capable of course). Do people die on the roads? They most certainly do and it's a tragedy and sometimes a scandal. Can we as a society cut down on such tragedies? Yes and we do, but if anyone was to suggest we live in a "motor racing/death on the roads culture" they'd be sent to a special ward for the terminally bewildered. And so it is for me this "rape culture" stuff.

It's ironic that the strongest language on this thread comes from those who deny that stuff exists in Ireland, or say because it is not universal it means it can't even be talked about and seem to get quite angry about it.

You get freaked out by someone using the word "retarded" and have a mind shutdown.

ash23 wrote:

What do I tell her? That it's lad culture? Locker room talk/action

That it's "dickhead culture"? I really don't know how people get to a point where they can't see that dickheads exist as a minority of people in any society, but that this doesn't mean that either society or a gender is a dickhead as a default.

Or do I teach her that it's unacceptable and disrespectful and she shouldn't tolerate it.

Of course she shouldn't tolerate dickheads of any stripe. No need to go full on paranoid about same and generally label one group as dickheads eagerly looking for confirmation biases. That's usually the point where accusations of "man hating feminist" tends to start.

machiavellianme

I thought this would be a thread about how Louise O'Neill rapes "culture" with her turgid drivel.
To think that Ireland once boasted some excellent journalists and have a phenomenal record for literature, she really knows how to defile our reputation with her assault of the written word.

Topcat32

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Think rape culture is different to rape.

I mean, rape is rape. Rape culture is the whole depiction or representation of women in a crude or vulgar way as being simply sexual objects, hence from language like "I'd smash her back door in" to dick pics to the inability of some men to understand the word "no" (I don't mean in the context of sex, but even in bars or clubs where you see fellows after a few drinks going for the whining or abusive approach once a woman has made it clear she's not interested).

So by that logic drug culture to you means people talking about drugs or joking that somebody must be on drugs rather than people actually taking drugs?

Bonniedog

ash23 wrote: »

To be fair what I've described is pretty common in varying degrees. The intimidating, unwanted groping and relentless pursuing or not taking no as an answer is fairly common on a night out for women.
Last night I was out with two female friends and we ended up leaving a pub because some guy was pestering us despite us telling him we were all in relationships.
The time before that I was with my sisters and one had her bum grabbed. In fact it's more rare that nothing happens. Less and less as we get older and therefore I assume the mentality of grabbing and harassing women fades as these men mature but hearing my daughter discuss it is horrible
What do I tell her? That it's lad culture? Locker room talk/action.
Or do I teach her that it's unacceptable and disrespectful and she shouldn't tolerate it. But then she is called a man hating feminist etc so what do we do about this behaviour?

No-one should have to put up with un-solicited attention, physical or otherwise, from anyone.

Tell your daughter to tell such people to fk off. And ring cops. It is assault.

ligerdub

Deleted User wrote: »

No you didn't experience any of that. The is no rape culture in Ireland. Or flashing ones penis is not part of rape culture. Or something about lots of actual rape in Africa so what you experienced is fine and it apparently upsets people to suggest that what you experienced is classic rape culture. It's ironic that the strongest language on this thread comes from those who deny that stuff exists in Ireland, or say because it is not universal it means it can't even be talked about and seem to get quite angry about it.

Incidentally, I've seen exactly what you've experienced, and female friends of mine have gone through the same, and worse.

Yet you offered up some old comments...I.e. words, by an English TV presenter, in England, to support your arguments.

Unearthly

First time I've ever heard of rape culture and its definition.

Has me thinking though. So say if I'm out and about, and a woman I find attractive touches me on arm in a flirting manner, does the fact that I find her attractive count as consent and therefore I wasn't culturally raped?

Or the opposite. Some woman who I don't fancy touches me on arm. Was i culturally raped?

Or am I the cultural rapist? They may have just been friendly with no intention of flirting and I culturally raped them by even thinking of something more.

Actually I know the Answer, it's all bollocks, feck off with your 'rape culture'

ash23

osmiumartist wrote: »

Nah, most of the bluster is from those who take a few anecdotes and pretend it's the norm across the country, which is what it would have to be to be defined as a "culture". There would also have to be a "rape" involved, which none of these anecdotes have.
Rape? No.
Culture? No.
That's pretty much it.

To be fair what I've described is pretty common in varying degrees. The intimidating, unwanted groping and relentless pursuing or not taking no as an answer is fairly common on a night out for women.
Last night I was out with two female friends and we ended up leaving a pub because some guy was pestering us despite us telling him we were all in relationships.
The time before that I was with my sisters and one had her bum grabbed. In fact it's more rare that nothing happens. Less and less as we get older and therefore I assume the mentality of grabbing and harassing women fades as these men mature but hearing my daughter discuss it is horrible
What do I tell her? That it's lad culture? Locker room talk/action.
Or do I teach her that it's unacceptable and disrespectful and she shouldn't tolerate it. But then she is called a man hating feminist etc so what do we do about this behaviour?

Dr Jakub

osmiumartist wrote: »

Same story with murder victims. The vast majority are men murdered by men, but apparently we have a "culture" of violence towards women.

We have a murder culture in this country. However you don't have to commit murder to be part of the problem. All men are murderers.

py2006

osmiumartist wrote: »

Same story with murder victims. The vast majority are men murdered by men, but apparently we have a "culture" of violence towards women.

Actually, and I could be wrong here, I think the prison rape situation in the US is actually were the term, 'Rape Culture' comes from.

osmiumartist

Deleted User wrote: »

It's ironic that the strongest language on this thread comes from those who deny that stuff exists in Ireland, or say because it is not universal it means it can't even be talked about and seem to get quite angry about it.

Nah, most of the bluster is from those who take a few anecdotes and pretend it's the norm across the country, which is what it would have to be to be defined as a "culture". There would also have to be a "rape" involved, which none of these anecdotes have.
Rape? No.
Culture? No.
That's pretty much it.

osmiumartist

py2006 wrote: »

Yep, I read that too. More men are raped in the US than women. However, because it is men doing the rape its a stat dismissed by feminists.

Same story with murder victims. The vast majority are men murdered by men, but apparently we have a "culture" of violence towards women.

[Deleted User]

ash23 wrote: »

I'm not sure I'd call it rape culture here but there is definitely a need for talk about consent and what is and is not acceptable behaviour when dealing with people you are sexually interested in.

I'm sure I'm not the only woman who has had to physically push a man away from me. Nor the only one to be grabbed on the arse or boob by a randomer in a pub/club. It was a common enough occurrence when I was mid teens up to my early twenties. I've felt threatened when walking home late by groups of men catcalling. I've had a man wait for me after work and try to convince me that I really needed to get into his car. An offer of a lift is fine but a "no thank you" should be accepted as opposed to him driving along side the path until I actually threatened to call the guards. Then I was called a f**king b*tch.
I've had men flash their penis at me in the pub "for a laugh". Dick pics sent unsolicited and unwanted.
I've had older men leer at me and make sexual comments about me. I worked in pubs when younger so probably was more likely to encounter that behaviour but this stuff happened both in work and out.

My 13 year old daughter was at a teen disco where she was grabbed by the arse a couple of times. One poor girl there was left traumatised when a group of boys lifted her dress and flashed her underwear to the entire crowd.

I am a woman. And I only have a daughter. So my experience is from a woman's perspective. I am aware that women can behave in a similar way so I'm not suggesting that it's just men who are the problem.
But I know I've raised my child to know she should never lay a hand on a person without their consent. She should never try to intimidate or humiliate someone to show off and I think that is lacking somewhat in society as there is still a definite prevalence of that behaviour in younger people imo.

No you didn't experience any of that. The is no rape culture in Ireland. Or flashing ones penis is not part of rape culture. Or something about lots of actual rape in Africa so what you experienced is fine and it apparently upsets people to suggest that what you experienced is classic rape culture. It's ironic that the strongest language on this thread comes from those who deny that stuff exists in Ireland, or say because it is not universal it means it can't even be talked about and seem to get quite angry about it.

Incidentally, I've seen exactly what you've experienced, and female friends of mine have gone through the same, and worse.

py2006

Bonniedog wrote: »

You're up there with Stalin and Hitler if you ask me

Well, I have achieved all I can...

Bonniedog

py2006 wrote: »

I was never a wolf whistler or a chat up kinda bloke. However, after a couple pints (and way out of hearing distance) I have often muttered to a friend, "wow, the legs on your one" or more recently, "you can actually see her ass". Does that make me part of this rape culture too or am I merely a healthy heterosexual guy distracted by a female displaying what people find attractive?

You're up there with Stalin and Hitler if you ask me