Louise O Neill on rape culture.

Wibbs

Deleted User wrote: »

Are you saying rape culture cannot exist without the act of rape?

Ehh… yeah. Christ Almighty, does that even need to be said? Apparently it does. So in your little world if no murders occurred then somewhere could be a "murder culture" because they had TV shows with murders in them? Or because people might use the phrase "I'd murder a pint/burger/vegan meal". Oh oh, murder culture. *trigger warning*

If so, I disagree with your interpretation of that term.

Hmmm, it seems we reach a point of some agreement. Only in reverse.

And I think smiling at someone and sending them dick pics are not remotely alike.

You don't say. And some idiot sending dick pics isn't remotely comparable to rape. Oh and hold onto your safe suburban bonnet; booby and ladyparts pics can go the other direction too. We may certainly live in a gobshíte/naive/dopey culture, but to equate that with rape is beyond retarded in my book.

Christ, when did adult human beings get so bloody anxiety and offence ridden while getting positive feedback from celebrating victimhood? The subject of this thread has blamed eating disorders(inc her own) on unrealistic expectations of female beauty, which of course is again Men's Fault(™). Never mind that fashion and the beauty industry is overwhelmingly populated by women with a smattering of gay guys. Straight men, as pornography illustrates have a far wider range and appreciation of the female form, with size an age and ethnicity ranges that the catwalk and the photoshopped photospread has never come close to. Men have been choking their chickens to large women, long before and in greater volume than Parisian fashion houses who grudgingly added a couple of "plus sized" women to their lineup, while looking for canonisation.

This O'Neill wan is a perfect counterpoint to the Bro Science(™) of the "red pill" eejits, in her case pure Chick Think(™) with added cosseted chardonnay driven crocodile tear stained white girl Victimhood covering clickbait. Get off the stage love. Let women speak, we're all getting a little weary of externally adult perpetually adolescent girls.

That's the burn for me TBH. I really don't know women like this person. Well beyond the usual mental defectives regardless of gender. All I've known have been women and men with foibles and greatness in different measure. Including women and men who've had lives beyond shítty, some of whom have been raped and sexually molested BTW(both genders). It's most certainly crap part of their life journey, but they don't define themselves or more, others, because of it.

Wibbs

Wibbs wrote: »

Ehh… yeah. Christ Almighty, does that even need to be said? Apparently it does. So in your little world if no murders occurred then somewhere could be a "murder culture" because they had TV shows with murders in them? Or because people might use the phrase "I'd murder a pint/burger/vegan meal". Oh oh, murder culture. *trigger warning*

Hmmm, it seems we reach a point of some agreement. Only in reverse.

You don't say. And some idiot sending dick pics isn't remotely comparable to rape. Oh and hold onto your safe suburban bonnet; booby and ladyparts pics can go the other direction too. We may certainly live in a gobshíte/naive/dopey culture, but to equate that with rape is beyond retarded in my book...

Got as far as the dip into "retarded", presume the rest of it gets even angrier, skipped it.

Relax. We disagree. Not sure what you were referring to with the murders and vegan meals and boobies and lady parts, but guess it sounded good and makes sense to you, fair enough.

mzungu

Deleted User wrote: »

What experts in front lines said rape culture doesn't exist?

You quoted a piece earlier that did not deny it existed at all, but said blurring rape culture and the crime of rape is unhelpful, which is obviously true.

It stated that rape is not caused by cultural factors:

it is important to not lose sight of a simple fact: Rape is caused not by cultural factors but by the conscious decisions, of a small percentage of the community, to commit a violent crime.

Therefore there is no "Rape Culture" as it is the product of sick individuals, and not a collective act enabled by society at large normalising it.

Deleted User wrote: »

I have said they are distinct issues that occasionally may overlap, but certainly conflating expressions, gestures and even behaviour with the serious and violent crime of rape itself dilutes the latter. It's like saying alcoholism is not so bad because, well we do have a drinking culture.

You might believe they are totally different, but most theory of rape culture does state that rape and rape culture are intertwined and do not merely have an occasional "overlap".

As the claim was made in the documentary that we live in a Rape Culture, which, taking the definition from one study, it is a society that " fosters and encourages rape by instructing citizens that it is normal and natural for sexual relations to involve aggressive behavior on the part of males." (Barnet, Sligar & Wang 2016).

I do not think Ireland fits the bill for this by any stretch of the imagination.

Ralf and Florian

Only the big issues matter to the bould Louise. Like how come you never see "women of colour" in The Rose Of Tralee? (Actually there have been several ladies of the darker hue in the competition)

http://www.irishexaminer.com/viewpoints/columnists/louise-oneill/louise-o39neill-to-be-a-rose-was-to-have-made-it-in-life-416879.html

Wibbs

Deleted User wrote: »

Got as far as the dip into "retarded",

*triggered by bad word* Would "moronic" or "imbecilic" pass your offence hair trigger? Like "retarded", all old style medical terms for mental impairment. Ahh, dontcha all just love this "silly" word policing?

presume the rest of it gets even angrier, skipped it.

So for you, robust rebuttal equates to anger? Should we all have a little man hug of somesuch. Though maybe an actual rebuttal is just beyond your grasp? As I said; when did adult human beings get so bloody anxiety and offence ridden while getting positive feedback from celebrating victimhood? Though maybe it's the Patriarchy's fault? Hang on, IIRC we're both men… Somewhere a Louse O'Neill "feminist's" head implodes.

guess it sounded good and makes sense to you, fair enough.

:eek: Get out of my head.

Tigerbaby

Wibbs,

that was just "gold" !

thank you.

suicide_circus

omg this thread has more triggers than an only fools and horses boxset

mzungu

mzungu wrote: »

Therefore there is no "Rape Culture" as it is the product of sick individuals, and not a collective act enabled by society at large normalising it.

That's not what it says at all.

The piece you quoted made the very obvious point that the crime of rape is not a cultural issue, but an individual choice to commit a crime.

But it most certainly does not say that there is no rape culture...unless you believe rape culture is the act of rape itself - I say it has much more to do with language, attitude, gestures etc. And even if you dislike the rape culture term, that article most certainly does not say that there is a no culture of using violent and degrading behaviour towards and language about women amongst an element in society.

Dick phelan

Saying a rape culture can exist without rape is honestly one of the dumbest things i'v ever read on boards, it would be like saying murder rates have dropped but we have a culture of murder because people's fear of being murdered is at an all time high. There is no rape culture in Ireland, rape is not deemed acceptable by the vast vast majority of people in this country, The Congo parts of Pakistan, South Africa these are countries where a culture of rape exists, it's frankly embarrassing to hear people in Ireland say we live in a rape culture and it's also insulting to women who sadly do live in societies where rape is very prevalent and almost accepted.

Wibbs

Wibbs wrote: »

*triggered by bad word* Would "moronic" or "imbecilic" pass your offence hair trigger? Like "retarded", all old style medical terms for mental impairment. Ahh, dontcha all just love this "silly" word policing?

So for you, robust rebuttal equates to anger? Should we all have a little man hug of somesuch. Though maybe an actual rebuttal is just beyond your grasp? As I said; when did adult human beings get so bloody anxiety and offence ridden while getting positive feedback from celebrating victimhood? Though maybe it's the Patriarchy's fault? Hang on, IIRC we're both men… Somewhere a Louse O'Neill "feminist's" head implodes.

:eek: Get out of my head.

The thread is about rape culture, which is linked to the use of violent and degrading language, very often with an undercurrent of anger. It's all about respect and civility. Unlike the crime of rape which is, well about the crime of rape.

There was a wonderful irony in the language of your rebuttal. If you see references to "retards" as robust rebuttal, fair enough. I see your degrading language, your anger, and I am not surprised we disagree. I just guess I'm less...worked up about it.

Dick phelan

Dick phelan wrote: »

There is no rape culture in Ireland, rape is not deemed acceptable by the vast vast majority of people in this country...

There is both rape and rape culture in Ireland.

To say there is no rape culture whatsoever is...well not my experience anyway.

Sweetemotion

Deleted User wrote: »

I say it has much more to do with language, attitude, gestures etc. And even if you dislike the rape culture term, that article most certainly does not say that there is a no culture of using violent and degrading behaviour towards and language about women amongst an element in society.

What element of Irish society, does this?

suicide_circus

Deleted User wrote: »

There is both rape and rape culture in Ireland.

To say there is no rape culture whatsoever is...well not my experience anyway.

tell us of your cultural rape experiences

Wibbs

Ralf and Florian wrote: »

Only the big issues matter to the bould Louise. Like how come you never see "women of colour" in The Rose Of Tralee? (Actually there have been several ladies of the darker hue in the competition)

Ah here R&F, don't go off piste you dastard you! :eek:;)

From the "article":

Why do they think a woman in her twenties would need to be chaperoned?

Says the "woman" in her thirties who runs to daddy when Things Get Real(™). Well, when I say real… More like unreal. Oh and whose mum, the woman who co-raised her(went a tad california there) is a bit player and oft butt of her angst in her narrative.

(Has a woman of colour ever entered the competition? Answers on a postcard, please.)

Yes, as Ralf and Florian noted. No postcard required.

I’m obviously not the only person who cringes when they see impressive women with degrees in biochemistry or medieval history or international languages, being reduced to a ‘grand girl, altogether’.

We're on common ground here. Though oddly, my ground has a remote control for my telly, which gets used in such scenarios. Has she absorbed Father Ted? Apparently she has watched it and absorbed a couple of memes, but missed the obvious. Common in Chick Think(™), as it is in Bro Science(™).

There’s something so insular about the whole event, an obsession with celebrating a sense of Irishness that verges on the jingoistic.

No way? :eek: You think? Must have missed that.

heteronormative.
*quietly backs away*

No, they were internalising the notion that in order to receive love, attention, and validation, that a pretty dress and a ready smile are what they need.

Or maybe she was. Judging by her scribblings it would be a foolhardy man or woman who would think otherwise.

suicide_circus

suicide_circus wrote: »

tell us of your cultural rape experiences

I have already, men using graphic and violent language to describe what they would do, men not being able to take no, men sending dick pics to women I know with no invitation, that to me is rape culture. It is using the violence and degradation that underpins rape in more commonplace situations, in conversation, in texts, in the pub etc. It's like the Sky commentators looking at the female ref and saying they'd smash it, it's degrading and insulting. That's rape culture, as opposed to on one hand saying either a male or female is attractive, or on the other hand the crime of rape itself.

Wibbs

Deleted User wrote: »

The thread is about rape culture, which is linked to the use of violent and degrading language, very often with an undercurrent of anger. It's all about respect and civility. Unlike the crime of rape which is, well about the crime of rape.

I've seen fewer examples of knot tying at a Boy Scouts jamboree.

There was a wonderful irony in the language of your rebuttal.

I get the impression your grasp of irony is up there with Alanis Morissette's.

If you see references to "retards" as robust rebuttal, fair enough.

Bless, when one's "argument" falls short, seek an out.

I see your degrading language, your anger, and I am not surprised we disagree. I just guess I'm less...worked up about it.

*drink male tears" or something.

suicide_circus wrote: »

omg this thread has more triggers than an only fools and horses boxset

SC, I love you and I care not who knows.

suicide_circus wrote: »

tell us of your cultural rape experiences

Well the price of a pint in Dublin city is a continuing low point for me.

Sweetemotion

Deleted User wrote: »

I have already, men using graphic and violent language to describe what they would do, men not being able to take no, men sending dick pics to women I know with no invitation, that to me is rape culture. It is using the violence and degradation that underpins rape in more commonplace situations, in conversation, in texts, in the pub etc. It's like the Sky commentators looking at the female ref and saying they'd smash it, it's degrading and insulting. That's rape culture, as opposed to on one hand saying either a male or female is attractive, or on the other hand the crime of rape itself.

No sky commentator has ever said that.

I hear women in the pub saying what they would like to do men and sometimes me.

The women they are all after me where is my protection? :rolleyes:

mzungu

Deleted User wrote: »

That's not what it says at all.

The piece you quoted made the very obvious point that the crime of rape is not a cultural issue, but an individual choice to commit a crime.

Rape is not a product of cultural factors, therefore no rape culture.

You have your own definitions of what rape culture means to you, but that is not part of the discussion.

In general rape culture means the normalisation and acceptance of rape in society. We do not have a rape culture.

Wibbs

mzungu wrote: »

In general rape culture means the normalisation and acceptance of rape in society. We do not have a rape culture.

What M said.

mzungu

mzungu wrote: »

Rape is not a product of cultural factors, therefore no rape culture.

You have your own definitions of what rape culture means to you, but that it not part of the discussion.

In general rape culture means the normalisation and acceptance of rape in society. We do not have a rape culture.

It is interesting that you flatly refuse to accept that it exists here.

Across many other countries they are willing to examine the prevalence of rape culture. Such as in the UK...

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/sites-like-uni-lad-only-act-to-support-our-everyday-rape-culture-8360109.html

We'll just have to disagree on your "nope, not in Ireland, doesn't exist here" take.

Sweetemotion

Sweetemotion wrote: »

No sky commentator has ever said that.

Was Richard Keys not caught saying he'd smash it, and some co commentator or pundit would be found hanging off the back of some woman?

nullzero

[Deleted User] wrote: »

That's not what it says at all.

The piece you quoted made the very obvious point that the crime of rape is not a cultural issue, but an individual choice to commit a crime.

But it most certainly does not say that there is no rape culture...unless you believe rape culture is the act of rape itself - I say it has much more to do with language, attitude, gestures etc. And even if you dislike the rape culture term, that article most certainly does not say that there is a no culture of using violent and degrading behaviour towards and language about women amongst an element in society.

Jesus first you were defending the poor Travellers now its the SJW misandrists you're championing. Go Conor.

Advbrd

Deleted User wrote: »

There is both rape and rape culture in Ireland.

To say there is no rape culture whatsoever is...well not my experience anyway.

Well, it cannot be denied that there is rape in Ireland, one instance proves this.
But rape culture? That's pure horsesh1t.

drugstore cowboy

Deleted User wrote: »

Was Richard Keys not caught saying he'd smash it, and some co commentator or pundit would be found hanging off the back of some woman?

it was just banter

nullzero

drugstore cowboy wrote: »

it was just banter

Not allowed anymore. Everything is now appropriated at face value.

Welcome to generation snowflake, be offended, very offended.

Poor Uncle Tom

Wibbs wrote: »

I get the impression your grasp of irony is up there with Alanis Morissette's.

Hehehehe....:D

Shemale

Deleted User wrote: »

It is interesting that you flatly refuse to accept that it exists here.

Across many other countries they are willing to examine the prevalence of rape culture. Such as in the UK...

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/sites-like-uni-lad-only-act-to-support-our-everyday-rape-culture-8360109.html

We'll just have to disagree on your "nope, not in Ireland, doesn't exist here" take.

The last line "We shouldn’t be losing them to a culture of misogyny sickeningly disguised as ‘banter’."

What a crap article from a crap paper in another jurisdiction, this site has X number of likes from men and once it used the word clunge, therefore ...., ffs.

Society now has conventions of the type of body like never before, everyone going to the gym, not as much drinking, fake tans, waxing, selfies, tinder, grinder etc, it's far more sexualised that it was in your day so it's not surprising the language is more sexualised too.

Talk is talk and rape culture is rape culture, it doesn't exist in Ireland.

Didas

Deleted User wrote: »

Was Richard Keys not caught saying he'd smash it, and some co commentator or pundit would be found hanging off the back of some woman?

No, they made comments along the lines of 'female lineswoman? what's the game coming to, someone better explain the offside rule to her' about a match official


EDIT: I was wrong, apparently these clowns were involved in a number of incidents.

py2006

I no longer engage in one night stands for fear of being accused of rape (if SHE regrets it).

If things continue as they are, in a few years, men will be accused of all sorts for merely looking at a woman.

ligerdub

AnGaelach wrote:

Men are depicted in crude and vulgar ways too, or do you think Tom Hardy and Chris Hemsworth walking being goggled by women is somehow less "crude or vulgar" than men goggling Mila Kunis and Jennifer Aniston?

Deleted User wrote:

I think there is a world of difference between saying a person, male or female, is attractive, and saying you'd leave them bleeding or split them or smash their flaps in. I think the latter is crude and vulgar, I don't think the former is crude or vulgar, not sure how you conflate the two.

"I'd smash her backdoors in" might well be crude or vulgar but it has nothing to do with rape. If you think comments like that are made in the context of "with or without her permission" then you're off your rocker. No group of guys would be alright with one of their mates nonchalantly suggesting they would rape a woman they found attractive. Cop on.