Louise O Neill on rape culture.

ivytwine

Smegmaniac17 wrote: »

Can you elaborate on the bootlicking? I don't know anything about that ( But I predict some cringing!

Oh lord I don't think I can face trawling through her Twitter. I was following her then (and I was on Twitter). They were both chosen for the no 7 campaign and I just remember tweet after tweet gushing about Chimamanda in a teenager-y way. Pretty sure there was an Examiner column about her as well. Could be wrong but it seemed to be all one way traffic. Actually that love in stuff on twitter is another mark against it, there's something so phoney about gushing so much about someone you have a professional relationship with.

TerrorFirmer

That Twitter account, tweetsbysimone, is so incredibly irrational that it's beyond frustration. Labelling an awareness campaign (which exist for all manner of crimes and dangers for good reason, not simply violence against women) as proof of rape culture, a state which encourages victim blaming, even somehow managing to include the Tuam Mother and Baby Home in the mix.

These people scare me. They're people I don't want to be around for fear of setting off their blinkered irrationality with the most innocuous comment. She even has 'misogynist trolls' featured in her bio, which I strongly suspect is essentially anyone of the male gender who disagrees with her truths.

JRant

mzungu wrote: »

I think this article highlights the craziness of identity politics. Last weekend, Nigerian author Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie said in an interview: “When people talk about, ‘Are trans women women?’ my feeling is trans women are trans women.” . Her point being that before they transitioned they enjoyed privilege as men, and therefore they would not be able to understand the experience of cisgender women.

Fairly innocuous stuff. Although it has caused controversy and follows on from outrage last week over similar comments made by Loose Women's Jenni Murray:

Is this a sign of things to come? Before, people outside of the identity groupings were rife for shaming (Tim Hunt, Shirt guy etc), now the movement looks to be cannibalising itself. It seems that intersectionality is increasingly becoming (if it is not there already) akin to a cult where even the most banal of statements will be jumped on for not being completely "on message".

Identify politics by its very nature has no other course to run but to turn on itself. it gets to a point whereby they've nobody else to castigate so it just starts in fighting over who is the most oppressed, hard done by or gets the most funding.

I must say intersectionality is the biggest pile of shîte i've heard of in a long time. It's akin to the oppression Olympics.

ivytwine

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

That Twitter account, tweetsbysimone, is so incredibly irrational that it's beyond frustration. Labelling an awareness campaign (which exist for all manner of crimes and dangers for good reason, not simply violence against women) as proof of rape culture, a state which encourages victim blaming, even somehow managing to include the Tuam Mother and Baby Home in the mix.

These people scare me. They're people I don't want to be around for fear of setting off their blinkered irrationality with the most innocuous comment. She even has 'misogynist trolls' featured in her bio, which I strongly suspect is essentially anyone of the male gender who disagrees with her truths.

Just ignore them. These people in my experience talk an amazing game online but in real life, their debating skills are usually minimal. That's if they even make a peep in the real world.

So many of the people now tweeting about Tuam wouldn't have done anything about it if they'd been around back then. I take my example from people like Catherine Corless. They mightn't be the most glam or spend most of their lives on Twitter pretending to care about every single injustice in the world, but they get **** done and they often stand alone in defence an unfashionable cause.

retro:electro

Why isn't there a man on the poster? Do men not get attacked? Statistically men are more likely to be attacked on nights out than women, should men not have a plan as well? While I'm being deliberately obtuse and provocative, I bet if there had been a man on the poster there'd be people giving out about that too and crying oppression. The outrage brigade will always find something to feel wronged and disgust over.

JRant

ivytwine wrote: »

Just ignore them. These people in my experience talk an amazing game online but in real life, their debating skills are usually minimal. That's if they even make a peep in the real world.

So many of the people now tweeting about Tuam wouldn't have done anything about it if they'd been around back then. I take my example from people like Catherine Corless. They mightn't be the most glam or spend most of their lives on Twitter pretending to care about every single injustice in the world, but they get **** done and they often stand alone in defence an unfashionable cause.

Ah but you see Catherine Corless put the hard yards in and actually fought the good fight for years to get justice. If these clowns on twitter can't solve world hunger and peace in 140 characters or less they just don't want to know about it. Even Dory in Finding Nemo has a longer concentration span than some of these numpties.

professore

mzungu wrote: »

Would that not happen in all types of court cases? Being surrounded by family and friends?


Nobody disputes rapes happen. What is disputed is that there is a "rape culture".
Unfortunately, there are some people out there with backwards attitudes. It wouldn't make it a culture, though.


Is this the study you are referring to?

The results don't seem to make much sense.

For example, the results state that 21% said sex without consent is acceptable in certain situations and 11% said being drunk or on drugs justifies sex without consent.

But at the same time....

97% said violence against women was not acceptable.
99% said that sending unwanted texts/pictures of a sexual nature was wrong.
97% said making lewd remarks in public was wrong.
99% thought that making unwanted physical contact with a colleague was wrong.

How exactly do these two sets of figures add up? Violence against women, lewd remarks, unwanted pictures and contact is shown to be unacceptable by 97% and higher, but then 21% believe sex without consent is fine?

Something is not right with the above.

Also, we don't know how they defined consent (or even if they did define it) for the study. I think clues to the results may lie in the wording of the wording of the questions.

Here is the question from it concerning consent that the figures were taken from:


Take the wording of the question itself. It starts off with "Some people believe that having sexual intercourse without consent may be justified in certain situations." So, immediately it is guiding the respondent to think of other people rather than him or herself. Then asks "Do you think this applies to the following circumstances?"

That leaves a hell of a lot of room for misinterpretation.

I had a separate thread on this before. The only possible conclusion is that this question was deliberately designed to be ambiguous. The fact that the 21% was split evenly by gender shows that lots of people thought it referred to what some other people might think.

JRant

anna080 wrote: »

Why isn't there a man on the poster? Do men not get attacked? Statistically men are more likely to be attacked than women, should men not have a plan as well? I'm being deliberately obtuse here, but I bet if there had been a man on the poster there'd be people giving out about that too and crying oppression. The outrage brigade will always find something to feel disgust over.

It wouldn't matter if they put a disabled, ethnic minority, trans-species midget on the poster as someone would be crying oppression.

ivytwine

JRant wrote: »

Ah but you see Catherine Corless put the hard yards in and actually fought the good fight for years to get justice. If these clowns on twitter can't solve world hunger and peace in 140 characters or less they just don't want to know about it. Even Dory in Finding Nemo has a longer concentration span than some of these numpties.

Yep and I'd rather be a Catherine Corless than a numpty on Twitter!

mzungu

Smegmaniac17 wrote: »

Yeah, it's looking that way alright. Ive actually heard a speech from Chimamanda a few weeks back and I have to admit that I agreed with most of what she said. I think if the feminist movement has any ambitions to become mainstream, this is the type of woman that they want fronting it! Though, it is highly doubtful that they do want it to become mainstream anyway!

I would disagree with her fundamentally on a few things. A major one being her belief that gender is a social construct. I just can't get on board with that one. Nevertheless, to be fair to her, she is quite active in trying to promote feminism in Nigeria, which in itself is a huge task. Big kudos there.

JRant wrote: »

Identify politics by its very nature has no other course to run but to turn on itself. it gets to a point whereby they've nobody else to castigate so it just starts in fighting over who is the most oppressed, hard done by or gets the most funding.

No doubt, I expected it might take another wee while before the infighting over who is most oppressed would begin. But it appears things are moving more swiftly than anticipated.

JRant wrote: »

I must say intersectionality is the biggest pile of shîte i've heard of in a long time. It's akin to the oppression Olympics.

It's not too far off primary school playground popularity politics with identity thrown into the mix. But it is a complete and utter load of tosh.

The J Stands for Jay

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

As spoken about yesterday, some feminists seem to confuse warnings about what raises risk factors of being assaulted and how to reduce them, with actually being blamed for causing the assault.

I see Louise has just re-tweeted the following tweet which shows the latest poster from An Garda Siochana's 'Community Safety' as doing just that, when in actuality it is doing anything but:


https://twitter.com/TweetsbySimone/status/841388800525897731

I've seen a few of these, but only for men. One about getting beaten up (I think), and the other pretty much like this one but with a wallet instead of lippy. Is that not equality?

ivytwine

mzungu wrote: »

I would disagree with her fundamentally on a few things. A major one being her belief that gender is a social construct. I just can't get on board with that one. Nevertheless, to be fair to her, she is quite active in trying to promote feminism in Nigeria, which in itself is a huge task. Big kudos there.

No doubt, I expected it might take another wee while before the infighting over who is most oppressed would begin. But it appears things are moving more swiftly than anticipated.

It's not too far off primary school playground popularity politics with identity thrown into the mix. But it is a complete and utter load of tosh.

I cannot understand how "gender is a social construct" is compatible with trans rights actually. In my view there's a fundamental conflict there. Maybe I'm a bit dense. Anyway while I'd agree that certain aspects of gender identity aren't fixed (pink used to be for boys for example) they are the most trivial aspects. Yeah, absolutely fair play to her. Promoting feminism in Ireland is an absolute cakewalk in comparison.

Like so many things intersectionality came from a good place. non white women etc were ignored by feminism by a long time. I would argue tho that nothing has been achieved by this. Practical action is almost non existent, and the infighting has everyone so stuck and afraid to put their head above the parapet. Gay marriage happened because LGBT people put their rights first and fought for them.

Anyway in light of the existential crisis facing the human race (climate change) I find all this stuff darkly amusing. It reminds me of nothing more than the characters in GOT slinging it out over the Iron Throne, pretending that the White Walkers aren't coming ever closer to the Wall.

RabbleRouser2k

RabbleRouser2k wrote: »

We see class systems all the time-Tim Allen, the chef, as I mentioned. He got so much support from locals, it was disgusting.

OR the Judge Curtin case- where the warrant used to obtain child porn off of his computer was a day out of date. So he walked free from court, despite him being clearly guilty. Do you honestly think that if he was 'Joe Curtin, the plumber' that he'd have gotten away so easily? He only stepped down from his job by claiming health problems-he could still be working as a judger but for people clamoring for him to 'do the right thing' regarding not presiding over cases.
(His ex-wife was also the mayor of tralee at one point, and is a former solicitor who lectures in the college in Tralee). Class played a huge part in his case.
It plays a huge part all the time-the IRish presenters caught for drink driving, who go on TV all the time.
Some of them read the weather to us...to me, that would show a sad symptom of our drink culture-but there is far more evidence of that than 'rape culture'.

ivytwine wrote: »

I cannot understand how "gender is a social construct" is compatible with trans rights actually. In my view there's a fundamental conflict there. Maybe I'm a bit dense. Anyway while I'd agree that certain aspects of gender identity aren't fixed (pink used to be for boys for example) they are the most trivial aspects. Yeah, absolutely fair play to her. Promoting feminism in Ireland is an absolute cakewalk in comparison.

Like so many things intersectionality came from a good place. non white women etc were ignored by feminism by a long time. I would argue tho that nothing has been achieved by this. Practical action is almost non existent, and the infighting has everyone so stuck and afraid to put their head above the parapet. Gay marriage happened because LGBT people put their rights first and fought for them.

Anyway in light of the existential crisis facing the human race (climate change) I find all this stuff darkly amusing. It reminds me of nothing more than the characters in GOT slinging it out over the Iron Throne, pretending that the White Walkers aren't coming ever closer to the Wall.

Spoilers ffs. :pac:

Dravokivich

McGaggs wrote: »

I've seen a few of these, but only for men. One about getting beaten up (I think), and the other pretty much like this one but with a wallet instead of lippy. Is that not equality?

There's another about burgalary. I think it's just a general awareness campaign of... I dunno awareness i guess.

anna080 wrote: »

Why isn't there a man on the poster? Do men not get attacked? Statistically men are more likely to be attacked on nights out than women, should men not have a plan as well? While I'm being deliberately obtuse and provocative, I bet if there had been a man on the poster there'd be people giving out about that too and crying oppression. The outrage brigade will always find something to feel wronged and disgust over.

There's a whole range of subjects covered by "Make a Plan." One twitter user focused on one particular poster for their own agenda, without looking into what was going on. Nor do they care really. They just want to be seen, to be vocal on the topic. Doesn't matter what comes out of what they're vocalising.

Widdershins

ivytwine wrote: »

Yep and I'd rather be a Catherine Corless than a numpty on Twitter!

That's a woman with the courage of her convictions. I can look up to someone like that. And that lady in the news lately, Vera Twomey.

Outlaw Pete

McGaggs wrote: »

I've seen a few of these, but only for men. One about getting beaten up (I think), and the other pretty much like this one but with a wallet instead of lippy. Is that not equality?

Yeah, seen the wallet one (included below) but not the beaten up one.

Doctor Jimbob

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

Yeah, seen the wallet one (included below) but not the beaten up one.

That's different though, because, you know, stuff. And reasons. Important reasons.

Outlaw Pete

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

That's different though, because, you know, stuff. And reasons. Important reasons.

Close


https://twitter.com/Ciarabelles/status/841545613539966976


I replied pointing out that there was also a poster saying similar to men (with regards to them 'not having a plan') and Louise chimed in:


https://twitter.com/oneilllo/status/841625743310356480

Dravokivich

"I have had that account muted for ages. I am SO WISE"

All i can think of, is a kid putting their fingers in their ears going "LALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YouUUU!"

Shows'em up for their bias. Look hard enough for a problem and you'll find one.

TerrorFirmer

By that logic, awareness campaigns around home security, hi-visbility wear at night, etc are victim blaming. Awareness ≠ blame

Response:

They actually do. Which just shows you have no idea of what rape culture is and how it works. Shocking.

And I really don't give a **** about some random dude's opinion on this, you've never had to deal with this ****.

ivytwine

All of these people need to put their phones away and go for a walk.

Dravokivich

ivytwine wrote: »

All of these people need to put their phones away and go for a walk.

Not by themselves, or down dark alleys. and this time of year it still gets dark relatively early. So some Hi-Viz gear, or a torch would be advisable.

#VictimBlaming

Sleepy

I dunno, would it really be a loss to society if a few of them fell down an open manpersonhole ?

RabbleRouser2k

ivytwine wrote: »

Twitter is such a crock of nonsense though. Especially for discussing such complex issues. At least Facebook gives you the space for debate. Most people use twitter for I don't even know what- I know one person who pretty much follows poker accounts only- and for small numbers of left and right it's a ridiculous echo chamber. I'd dearly love for people to pay it no mind and it'll eventually go away.
It really has done so much damage to debate and discussion.

Twitter is slowly but surely dying on it's @rse.

If you check out the increase in users, year by year, in most social media-twitter is dead last. It's heading towards myspace levels of 'never used again'.

There was more excitement when Bebo was claiming it would be revived.

Instagram is a new social media platform, but it has twice as many users as twitter, continually growing. Twitter-the negative press it recieves, means it has half the user base-and has pretty much flatlined (Disney very publicly stated they weren't interested in buying it because of it's toxic environment). You can find charts showing it's user based growth, and in the last 2-3 years, it's the same. Comparitively, facebook, and insta, are constantly growing. So Lon can scream from a cottage on twitter all she wants, as can many-they do nothing.

I would imagine they got a very harsh wake up call when all their 'activism' on twitter led to Donald Trump winning.

ivytwine

RabbleRouser2k wrote: »

Twitter is slowly but surely dying on it's @rse.

If you check out the increase in users, year by year, in most social media-twitter is dead last. It's heading towards myspace levels of 'never used again'.

There was more excitement when Bebo was claiming it would be revived.

Instagram is a new social media platform, but it has twice as many users as twitter, continually growing. Twitter-the negative press it recieves, means it has half the user base-and has pretty much flatlined (Disney very publicly stated they weren't interested in buying it because of it's toxic environment). You can find charts showing it's user based growth, and in the last 2-3 years, it's the same. Comparitively, facebook, and insta, are constantly growing. So Lon can scream from a cottage on twitter all she wants, as can many-they do nothing.

I would imagine they got a very harsh wake up call when all their 'activism' on twitter led to Donald Trump winning.

You're right. Instagram for me is a really nice place, I follow loads of photography and art accounts. People don't seem as angry.
I know tons of really smart people with moderate opinions who just don't engage online, unless something really riles them. It isn't even that they're scared, but that they feel they have better things to do than being screamed at by strangers.

RabbleRouser2k

https://twitter.com/RosemaryMacCabe/status/841064644609474560

Yes, everyone on boards is an MRA...wow, didn't know that equality meant I was an MRA...so disappointed in myself.... (Actually, even if I was an MRA, which I am not, I would not be disappointed in myself).

(And the tweet that started it all was about teens on a school trip-ya know, when people haven't figured out their own identity and 'try' to fit in. I would argue the LoN types are doing the same thing now-like they haven't left that phased).

Birneybau

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

Close


https://twitter.com/Ciarabelles/status/841545613539966976


I replied pointing out that there was also a poster saying similar to men (with regards to them 'not having a plan') and Louise chimed in:


https://twitter.com/oneilllo/status/841625743310356480

That's just infuriating!

ivytwine

Ah sure they're only dying for a reaction, don't give them one. Have to say though, the people they are criticising are legally children and that's just scummy. If they're concerned with how they're talking about women, organise a talk in the school?

retro:electro

RabbleRouser2k wrote: »

https://twitter.com/RosemaryMacCabe/status/841064644609474560

Yes, everyone on boards is an MRA...wow, didn't know that equality meant I was an MRA...so disappointed in myself.... (Actually, even if I was an MRA, which I am not, I would not be disappointed in myself).

(And the tweet that started it all was about teens on a school trip-ya know, when people haven't figured out their own identity and 'try' to fit in. I would argue the LoN types are doing the same thing now-like they haven't left that phased).

She's obsessed with calling people who don't agree with her MRA's, it's actually gas.

Outlaw Pete

Birneybau wrote: »

That's just infuriating!

Ah I don't mind the replies tbh. I find it kind of entertaining to see how people like them repsond to opposing views, even if it is to come out with madness like citing the recent consent survey when I pointed out that the Garda campaign wasn't blaming women on being attacked (yup, she did that).

What Louise was doing though does annoy me (and she does it often) and that is to try and convince others that they should not be engaging with people on on Twitter, FB etc, that don't agree with their worldview, and would be best to just mute them just as she does... and boy does she.

Her film Only Ever Yours starts shooting soon enough. She's bad enough now, what'll she be like after her name rolls on the big screen. Saints preseve us.