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Louise O Neill on rape culture.

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Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,114 ✭✭✭ivytwine


    All of these people need to put their phones away and go for a walk.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,360 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    ivytwine wrote: »
    All of these people need to put their phones away and go for a walk.

    Not by themselves, or down dark alleys. and this time of year it still gets dark relatively early. So some Hi-Viz gear, or a torch would be advisable.

    #VictimBlaming


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,289 ✭✭✭✭Sleepy


    I dunno, would it really be a loss to society if a few of them fell down an open manpersonhole ?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,386 ✭✭✭RabbleRouser2k


    ivytwine wrote: »
    Twitter is such a crock of nonsense though. Especially for discussing such complex issues. At least Facebook gives you the space for debate. Most people use twitter for I don't even know what- I know one person who pretty much follows poker accounts only- and for small numbers of left and right it's a ridiculous echo chamber. I'd dearly love for people to pay it no mind and it'll eventually go away.
    It really has done so much damage to debate and discussion.

    Twitter is slowly but surely dying on it's @rse.

    If you check out the increase in users, year by year, in most social media-twitter is dead last. It's heading towards myspace levels of 'never used again'.

    There was more excitement when Bebo was claiming it would be revived.

    Instagram is a new social media platform, but it has twice as many users as twitter, continually growing. Twitter-the negative press it recieves, means it has half the user base-and has pretty much flatlined (Disney very publicly stated they weren't interested in buying it because of it's toxic environment). You can find charts showing it's user based growth, and in the last 2-3 years, it's the same. Comparitively, facebook, and insta, are constantly growing. So Lon can scream from a cottage on twitter all she wants, as can many-they do nothing.

    I would imagine they got a very harsh wake up call when all their 'activism' on twitter led to Donald Trump winning.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,114 ✭✭✭ivytwine


    Twitter is slowly but surely dying on it's @rse.

    If you check out the increase in users, year by year, in most social media-twitter is dead last. It's heading towards myspace levels of 'never used again'.

    There was more excitement when Bebo was claiming it would be revived.

    Instagram is a new social media platform, but it has twice as many users as twitter, continually growing. Twitter-the negative press it recieves, means it has half the user base-and has pretty much flatlined (Disney very publicly stated they weren't interested in buying it because of it's toxic environment). You can find charts showing it's user based growth, and in the last 2-3 years, it's the same. Comparitively, facebook, and insta, are constantly growing. So Lon can scream from a cottage on twitter all she wants, as can many-they do nothing.

    I would imagine they got a very harsh wake up call when all their 'activism' on twitter led to Donald Trump winning.

    You're right. Instagram for me is a really nice place, I follow loads of photography and art accounts. People don't seem as angry.
    I know tons of really smart people with moderate opinions who just don't engage online, unless something really riles them. It isn't even that they're scared, but that they feel they have better things to do than being screamed at by strangers.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,386 ✭✭✭RabbleRouser2k


    https://twitter.com/RosemaryMacCabe/status/841064644609474560

    Yes, everyone on boards is an MRA...wow, didn't know that equality meant I was an MRA...so disappointed in myself.... (Actually, even if I was an MRA, which I am not, I would not be disappointed in myself).

    (And the tweet that started it all was about teens on a school trip-ya know, when people haven't figured out their own identity and 'try' to fit in. I would argue the LoN types are doing the same thing now-like they haven't left that phased).


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,373 ✭✭✭✭Birneybau


    Close ;)


    https://twitter.com/Ciarabelles/status/841545613539966976


    I replied pointing out that there was also a poster saying similar to men (with regards to them 'not having a plan') and Louise chimed in:


    https://twitter.com/oneilllo/status/841625743310356480

    That's just infuriating!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,114 ✭✭✭ivytwine


    Ah sure they're only dying for a reaction, don't give them one. Have to say though, the people they are criticising are legally children and that's just scummy. If they're concerned with how they're talking about women, organise a talk in the school?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,039 ✭✭✭✭retro:electro


    https://twitter.com/RosemaryMacCabe/status/841064644609474560

    Yes, everyone on boards is an MRA...wow, didn't know that equality meant I was an MRA...so disappointed in myself.... (Actually, even if I was an MRA, which I am not, I would not be disappointed in myself).

    (And the tweet that started it all was about teens on a school trip-ya know, when people haven't figured out their own identity and 'try' to fit in. I would argue the LoN types are doing the same thing now-like they haven't left that phased).

    She's obsessed with calling people who don't agree with her MRA's, it's actually gas.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,423 ✭✭✭✭Outlaw Pete


    Birneybau wrote: »
    That's just infuriating!

    Ah I don't mind the replies tbh. I find it kind of entertaining to see how people like them repsond to opposing views, even if it is to come out with madness like citing the recent consent survey when I pointed out that the Garda campaign wasn't blaming women on being attacked (yup, she did that).

    What Louise was doing though does annoy me (and she does it often) and that is to try and convince others that they should not be engaging with people on on Twitter, FB etc, that don't agree with their worldview, and would be best to just mute them just as she does... and boy does she.

    Her film Only Ever Yours starts shooting soon enough. She's bad enough now, what'll she be like after her name rolls on the big screen. Saints preseve us.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,633 ✭✭✭✭Widdershins


    I don't know what an MRA is. I'm imagining equally militant and neurotic male versions of this type of pseudo feminist.

    I reckon this is all a symptom of people who have some serious problems with the opposite sex ( opposite to whichever they happen to be)

    Reading those tweets and other gender wars stuff on Boards is bringing on a ''I hate people'' kind of mood


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,309 Mod ✭✭✭✭mzungu


    ivytwine wrote: »
    I cannot understand how "gender is a social construct" is compatible with trans rights actually. In my view there's a fundamental conflict there. Maybe I'm a bit dense. Anyway while I'd agree that certain aspects of gender identity aren't fixed (pink used to be for boys for example) they are the most trivial aspects. Yeah, absolutely fair play to her. Promoting feminism in Ireland is an absolute cakewalk in comparison.
    I believe Adichie's exact words were gender was more "sociology than biology". I think it is the opposite, that it is more "biology than sociology" but at the same time I do think social influences have a part to play in there too. I can totally understand gender roles, they are a social construct. But, this idea that biology is just a myth and it is all social influences? I can't hop on board that one. Thankfully, I doubt many people fully sign up to it either.

    The social construction of gender theory is an example postmoderism's (and gender theorists) casual relationship with science, a relationship that borders on being completely anti-science when it is most convenient (e.g. funding). It ignores even the most obvious of differences. We see it a lot in nature in the animal kingdom and with apes especially, the males are all rough and tumble with the females being more nurturing. In studies, when monkeys are given toys the males will prefer trucks while the females will prefer dolls. Is this behaviour socially constructed too? :D

    There are natural differences between the two sexes, it doesn't mean one is better than the other, it just simply means that we are hardwired differently. I find stuff like gender neutrality, especially forcing it upon children, to be a bit off. It is trying to stifle natural and non-threatening behaviour. In that sense, it is not a million miles away from those barbaric practices of trying to turn gay people straight. I mean, these same people would be up in arms at Mike Pence and his support of conversion therapy, whilst at the same time they are championing more or less the same thing. Both have their own brand of sinister social engineering, although only one of these is demonised. It should be both IMO.

    As regards trans rights, I would agree. Add to that, if it is all a social construct, then is homosexuality a social construct too? If you look at Julie Bindel, she follows this line of thought and her view is that homosexuality is a choice. She started a movement to try get women to identify as gay, as she says it should be a political choice above all else. Sounds barmy, and flies in the face of gay rights campaigners, but this is where a lot of this stuff leads when it is taken seriously.

    It is quite the pickle though, and it does take a lot of fancy dancing and science denial to try and successfully square that particular circle. Rightfully, I am sure many trans activist's do not subscribe to the "it's all a social construct" idea.
    ivytwine wrote: »
    Like so many things intersectionality came from a good place. non white women etc were ignored by feminism by a long time. I would argue tho that nothing has been achieved by this. Practical action is almost non existent, and the infighting has everyone so stuck and afraid to put their head above the parapet. Gay marriage happened because LGBT people put their rights first and fought for them.
    Yep, I think the problem is getting caught up in ideological purity, instead of actively trying to do something. Usually for movements to be successful and get some traction you need to bring along the rest population for the spin too. That's how stuff gets done.
    ivytwine wrote: »
    Anyway in light of the existential crisis facing the human race (climate change) I find all this stuff darkly amusing. It reminds me of nothing more than the characters in GOT slinging it out over the Iron Throne, pretending that the White Walkers aren't coming ever closer to the Wall.
    Well.....that's obviously all a social construct too! :P


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,249 ✭✭✭ Holland Helpful Pita


    Ah I don't mind the replies tbh. I find it kind of entertaining to see how people like them repsond to opposing views, even if it is to come out with madness like citing the recent consent survey when I pointed out that the Garda campaign wasn't blaming women on being attacked (yup, she did that).

    What Louise was doing though does annoy me (and she does it often) and that is to try and convince others that they should not be engaging with people on on Twitter, FB etc, that don't agree with their worldview, and would be best to just mute them just as she does... and boy does she.

    Her film Only Ever Yours starts shooting soon enough. She's bad enough now, what'll she be like after her name rolls on the big screen. Saints preseve us.

    She's going to get worse with the movie imho - she irks me as there are younger women who are going to be 'brainwashed' /impressionable with the stuff she comes out with and that's a fear for anyone - but looking at the lack of attendance for the consent classes in Dublin and Limerick give hope that they're seeing through her and her ilk


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,844 ✭✭✭py2006


    anna080 wrote: »
    She's obsessed with calling people who don't agree with her MRA's, it's actually gas.

    And straight and white apparently too!! Bizarre stuff.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,373 ✭✭✭✭Birneybau


    I don't know what an MRA is. I'm imagining equally militant and neurotic male versions of this type of pseudo feminist.

    I reckon this is all a symptom of people who have some serious problems with the opposite sex ( opposite to whichever they happen to be)

    Reading those tweets and other gender wars stuff on Boards is bringing on a ''I hate people'' kind of mood

    Men's Rights Activist...


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,386 ✭✭✭RabbleRouser2k


    ivytwine wrote: »
    Ah sure they're only dying for a reaction, don't give them one. Have to say though, the people they are criticising are legally children and that's just scummy. If they're concerned with how they're talking about women, organise a talk in the school?

    Well, when Louise has spoken at schools--they rightfully call her a manhater. (The students-not the teachers).


    Hence why she targets the vulnerable.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,386 ✭✭✭RabbleRouser2k


    She's going to get worse with the movie imho - she irks me as there are younger women who are going to be 'brainwashed' /impressionable with the stuff she comes out with and that's a fear for anyone - but looking at the lack of attendance for the consent classes in Dublin and Limerick give hope that they're seeing through her and her ilk

    The thing is-book deals to movie deals happen all the time-and no movie takes place.

    Skullduggery pleasant is a good example, the book sale was hyped up when it was planned to be a movie...and then nothing happened. Now the rights have reverted back to the author.

    The author usually makes a couple of grand on a book deal-which is micro-change to a studio.

    If anything comes out of it, it will be either a tv drama, or a tv movie-little else.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,423 ✭✭✭✭Outlaw Pete


    py2006 wrote: »
    And straight and white apparently too!! Bizarre stuff.

    Aye and she always at pains to make sure she's never including gay men either.

    In her rant article on pornography for example (which I can't find now - was in the Examiner I think) she said 'heterosexual' porn was misogynistic, making sure to not be including gay porn in her forthcoming rant. She then went on to say though that people should watch porn made by Erika Lust (and to 'thank her later') and has even tweeted the odd time recommending people view her stuff:


    https://twitter.com/oneilllo/status/746425600357842944


    Well I did watch some of her stuff (purely for research purposes you understand - hate the filth usually) and low and behold but what Erika makes has been made a thousand times before and far better too. (Watch some of it tell me different). I even also watched Erika's Tedx talk (included below...skip to the 6m mark) as maybe I had been watching it wrong or something (could happen) and was missing something that Louise was seeing as a result.. but no.. all I found was a nonsensical narcissistic rant from that was really just an attack on men.

    At one point she says that the history of porn has been a discourse (fair enough) which ONLY MEN had participated in thus far and who have ALL been narrow minded chauvinists making misogynistic porn with "little sexual intelligence". Says it all really that she thinks (in 2014) that only men have had a hand in producing pornography for the last 40 to 50 years. The usual ranting on a topic she clearly knows nothing about. It's as if they decide that because they are feminists they can just become an expert on any topic they so choose whenever they like and they are from that point on the first women to have done so... cause patriarchy or something.





    Guess I must have imagined watching all the Candida Royalle, Princess Donna, Nina Hartley, Belladonna (etc etc) produced and directed adult films. Course they don't make "sex positive" feminist porn and so guess they no doubt don't count as being a "female contribution" to the 'discourse' that pornography has been down the years. Funny how feminists get to decide which women's voices count and which one's don't.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,386 ✭✭✭RabbleRouser2k


    Aye and she always at pains to make sure she's never including gay men either.

    In her rant article on pornography for example (which I can't find now - was in the Examiner I think) she said 'heterosexual' porn was misogynistic, making sure to not be including gay porn in her forthcoming rant. She then went on to say though that people should watch porn made by Erika Lust (and to 'thank her later') and has even tweeted the odd time recommending people view her stuff:


    https://twitter.com/oneilllo/status/746425600357842944


    Well I did watch some of her stuff (purely for research purposes you understand - hate the filth usually) and low and behold but what Erika makes has been made a thousand times before and far better too. (Watch some of it tell me different). I even also watched Erika's Tedx talk (included below...skip to the 6m mark) as maybe I had been watching it wrong or something (could happen) and was missing something that Louise was seeing as a result.. but no.. all I found was a nonsensical narcissistic rant from that was really just an attack on men.

    At one point she says that the history of porn has been a discourse (fair enough) which ONLY MEN had participated in thus far and who have ALL been narrow minded chauvinists making misogynistic porn with "little sexual intelligence". Says it all really that she thinks (in 2014) that only men have had a hand in producing pornography for the last 40 to 50 years. The usual ranting on a topic she clearly knows nothing about. It's as if they decide that because they are feminists they can just become an expert on any topic they so choose whenever they like and they are from that point on the first women to have done so... cause patriarchy or something.


    Guess I must have imagined watching all the Candida Royalle, Princess Donna, Nina Hartley, Belladonna (etc etc) produced and directed adult films. Course they don't make "sex positive" feminist porn and so guess they no doubt don't count as being a "female contribution" to the 'discourse' that pornography has been down the years. Funny how feminists get to decide which women's voices count and which one's don't.

    Badly shot, badly filmed, without any sense of composition, cinematography or anything else-yeah, feminist porn...aka badly made.

    (And really, LoN, promoting an industry where no matter how much one can argue 'it's a job, their choice' there is no arguing that many performers are people in pain who have been violated-the James Deens (his attacks on women, and rape of his then girlfriend), the Bella Donna's (molested), Jenna Jameson (molested and raped), Jesse Rogers (raped), Nadia Hilton (now a pastor, was a victim of sexual abuse by two individuals as a kid) and the list goes on. It's completely irresponsible to suggest because porn is 'feminist' that it is somehow more valuable or 'better'-nope.)

    As for the 'when women's voices count'...yeah, it's the same crud we got with Ghostbusters-another movie LoN cited with her 'white girl' movie article. They completely ignored the action moves that had come before-the Ellen Ripley's, Sarah Connor's, or the Bride's etc- when they spoke of how 'no movie had a powerful female lead' like this one. (You can find that promotional video on youtube). Never mind that the massive hit movie of the year before, The Force Awakens, was lead by a female lead. (Debating the quality of the movie, as each of us has an opinion on it, the narrative they were pushing ignored a film that had come out months prior).


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,539 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    Close ;)


    https://twitter.com/Ciarabelles/status/841545613539966976


    I replied pointing out that there was also a poster saying similar to men (with regards to them 'not having a plan') and Louise chimed in:


    https://twitter.com/oneilllo/status/841625743310356480

    I'd be genuinely interested to find out how they can say it is not the same.

    Imagine the HSE put out a series of anti smoking posters. If there was a male poster and a female poster, both saying that it's not healthy to smoke, would they argue that they are not the same and that the male poster is trying to help men live better lives while the female poster is trying to dictate to women what they can or can't do with their own bodies?

    The irony of all this is that the campaign is from an organisation whose job it is to keep us all safe. Gardai see hundreds/thousands of drunk men and women on the streets of Dublin on a Friday or Saturday night.

    Sometimes people are just drunk and making a mess or can't get home. Some times they have to bring people to the hospital, or to the barracks to make a statement. Sometimes they have to go to the morgue. If the Gardai see all this stuff and think "we really have to educate young people about the perils of drinking too much", a part of which is about the risk of being sexually assaulted while drunk, what is wrong with that?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,249 ✭✭✭ Holland Helpful Pita


    I'd be genuinely interested to find out how they can say it is not the same.

    Imagine the HSE put out a series of anti smoking posters. If there was a male poster and a female poster, both saying that it's not healthy to smoke, would they argue that they are not the same and that the male poster is trying to help men live better lives while the female poster is trying to dictate to women what they can or can't do with their own bodies?

    The irony of all this is that the campaign is from an organisation whose job it is to keep us all safe. Gardai see hundreds/thousands of drunk men and women on the streets of Dublin on a Friday or Saturday night.

    Sometimes people are just drunk and making a mess or can't get home. Some times they have to bring people to the hospital, or to the barracks to make a statement. Sometimes they have to go to the morgue. If the Gardai see all this stuff and think "we really have to educate young people about the perils of drinking too much", a part of which is about the risk of being sexually assaulted while drunk, what is wrong with that?

    Honestly these third wave feminists just look deep and hard for anything that is remotely sexist and try to pedal their agenda (bit like the 1 in 4 charity and searching for funding)...

    Maybe its just me noticing things, do a lot of these types of feminists have some type mental issues, LON, RMC and Mullally have had mental issues (documented in their articles)

    Mod: banned


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,309 Mod ✭✭✭✭mzungu


    I'd be genuinely interested to find out how they can say it is not the same.

    Imagine the HSE put out a series of anti smoking posters. If there was a male poster and a female poster, both saying that it's not healthy to smoke, would they argue that they are not the same and that the male poster is trying to help men live better lives while the female poster is trying to dictate to women what they can or can't do with their own bodies?
    When you throw logic out the window all kinds of stuff is possible.
    The irony of all this is that the campaign is from an organisation whose job it is to keep us all safe. Gardai see hundreds/thousands of drunk men and women on the streets of Dublin on a Friday or Saturday night.

    Sometimes people are just drunk and making a mess or can't get home. Some times they have to bring people to the hospital, or to the barracks to make a statement. Sometimes they have to go to the morgue. If the Gardai see all this stuff and think "we really have to educate young people about the perils of drinking too much", a part of which is about the risk of being sexually assaulted while drunk, what is wrong with that?
    There was an opinion piece in yesterdays Irish Times critiquing that campaign and called it an example of "Gardasplaining". :D They're not even trying anymore over at the IT these days are they?

    On a more serious note, I think there is always going to be no pleasing a certain cohort in society. That goes for just about everything in all walks of life. However, I would wager that most rational minded people were able to understand the true message of the campaign, and hopefully they will heed it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,386 ✭✭✭RabbleRouser2k


    mzungu wrote: »
    When you throw logic out the window all kinds of stuff is possible.

    There was an opinion piece in yesterdays Irish Times critiquing that campaign and called it an example of "Gardasplaining". :D They're not even trying anymore over at the IT these days are they?

    On a more serious note, I think there is always going to be no pleasing a certain cohort in society. That goes for just about everything in all walks of life. However, I would wager that most rational minded people were able to understand the true message of the campaign, and hopefully they will heed it.

    Oh they are getting crazy by the week-there are people on twitter campaigining against 'Manel's aka panels that consist of just men, and not a mix of women and men.

    I forgot to note how LoN claimed 'one director's' pornography was feminist, yet her 'documentary' included scenes from another porno called All about Anna, a film written by, and directed by, Women. Yet LoN saw it as 'degrading'...

    So loN is now deciding which voices get heard then?


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,539 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    Feminism seems prepared to give the long-term game away for the sake of a snarky tweet, never mind the hundreds of men who have been alienated in the process. If we want more men to join the Breitbart brigade, the Feminist Left need only keep doing what it is doing.

    https://newmatilda.com/2017/03/16/the-feminist-far-left-is-making-more-enemies-than-allies/

    Good article I thought. Probably explains the LONs of this world talking about how they are ironically misandrists.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,289 ✭✭✭✭Sleepy


    The comments on that article are telling - the usual numpties telling her she's not a real feminist... :rolleyes:


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,539 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    mzungu wrote: »
    If you look at the backstories for similar MRA "gurus", you will see a distinctly similar pattern emerge. Ditto for the men that follow the movement and buy into its "philosophy"
    .

    True.

    It's a pity that there isn't a clever catchy group word for people who are skeptical of feminists, MRAs, internet agenda pushers etc without having to allign themselves with another group. Basically anyone who wants to look at the world reasonably has no place on the internet anymore it seems.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,039 ✭✭✭✭retro:electro


    Honestly these third wave feminists just look deep and hard for anything that is remotely sexist and try to pedal their agenda (bit like the 1 in 4 charity and searching for funding)...

    Maybe its just me noticing things, do a lot of these types of feminists have some type mental issues, LON, RMC and Mullally have had mental issues (documented in their articles)

    Honestly I think these women just hate themselves and blame society for that and take their anger out on the world around them.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,386 ✭✭✭RabbleRouser2k


    anna080 wrote: »
    Honestly I think these women just hate themselves and blame society for that and take their anger out on the world around them.

    I agree with that-tbh. They change the self hate (such as bulimia/ anorexia/ depression-the last I have too much experience with) to outward blame or hatred of society-that they aren't perceived as 'sexy' by the masses. Yet 'sexy' is, I feel, something one can become-it's not genetic-at least not entirely. There have been some women who were not considered 'sexy', got a makeover, and suddenly it was like 'hey gurl'... For ladies, Benedict Cumberbatch went from 'oh yeah, that guy in that thing...' to 'oh yeah...him...wait, is he reading R. Kelly...oh my...'.
    There are many unconventionally attractive people who are attractive to many because there is a confidence, or 'light' that they exude that makes em attractive.
    For me, I never understood the hype around certain ladies-Megan Fox, for example-because I just saw a bland, rather irritating person. On the other hand, I think Mindy Kaling is really cute.

    I found it telling when RMC was all like 'why didn't people hit on me when I wore a bikini'-then proceed to condemn society for objectifying women. Seems if folks had been al laike 'La bella RMC' while she wore the bikini, she might have gone on to call wearing a bikini 'empowering' to women.


  • Registered Users Posts: 465 ✭✭76544567


    My friend's wife is as radical a feminist as you can get. I actually think she wants all men dead, including my friend, who has provided what she needed now and is of no use to her anymore.

    She has long fully grey hair down to her arse. It really is shocking looking and she could easy look like a normal woman if she took a bit of pride in her appearance.
    One or two of the womem in our social circle have had a kind chat with her about her appearance and then got the tirade off her about how she isn't falsely going to change her ways for MEN. Ehm it's actually everyone who thinks you look like a witch, including your you children who listen to their friends calling their mother a witch.

    Let her look like a witch if she wants i say as long as i don't have to look at her, but Jesus she should shut up about the femenism stuff. It hurts everybody's ears, even the women's at this stage. None of us can stand to be around.d her anymore. Even the women avoid her as often as possie and have taken to having girly themes to any event they have only so that she doesn't turn up.

    And her poor children. And she wasn't like that when my friend married her. He's a shell of a man now too, but he made his bed himself. He can get out of it himself if he wants. Married to a woman who could play a witch in a movie without makeup and treated like sh1t. He even said to me he is actually afraid of how the children, 3 girls and 1 boy will turn out if he leaves.

    Can people not just be normal people anymore.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,587 ✭✭✭FishOnABike


    76544567 wrote: »
    My friend's wife is as radical a feminist as you can get. I actually think she wants all men dead, including my friend, who has provided what she needed now and is of no use to her anymore.

    She has long fully grey hair down to her arse. It really is shocking looking and she could easy look like a normal woman if she took a bit of pride in her appearance.
    One or two of the womem in our social circle have had a kind chat with her about her appearance and then got the tirade off her about how she isn't falsely going to change her ways for MEN. Ehm it's actually everyone who thinks you look like a witch, including your you children who listen to their friends calling their mother a witch.

    Let her look like a witch if she wants i say as long as i don't have to look at her, but Jesus she should shut up about the femenism stuff. It hurts everybody's ears, even the women's at this stage. None of us can stand to be around her anymore. Even the women avoid her as often as possie and have taken to having girly themes to any event they have only so that she doesn't turn up.

    And her poor children. And she wasn't like that when my friend married her. He's a shell of a man now too, but he made his bed himself. He can get out of it himself if he wants. Married to a woman who could play a witch in a movie without makeup and treated like sh1t. He even said to me he is actually afraid of how the children, 3 girls and 1 boy will turn out if he leaves.

    Can people not just be normal people anymore.

    Why should he have to chose between remaining in what sounds to be an abusive situation to be with the children and leaving an abusive situation and be afraid of how the children will turn out if he leaves. Why should society almost automatically see this as the default choice?

    'Feminism' claims to be all about equality but is strangely silent on the glaring inequalities in our family law system.

    Similarly with domestic violence. From the beginning with Erin Pizzey and the first domestic violence shelters it was seen that domestic violence is not a gender issue, men and women are equally responsible yet where (outside some of the nordic countries) are the domestic violence shelters for men? Where is the vast state sponsored support network for male victims of domestic violence?

    If feminism is about equality where are their campaigns for equal treatment, equal resources and equal funding? It is clear feminism is about tackling areas of female disadvantage (and in the developed western world there are fewer and fewer of these) rather than about equality.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,854 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    76544567 wrote: »
    My friend's wife is as radical a feminist as you can get. I actually think she wants all men dead, including my friend, who has provided what she needed now and is of no use to her anymore.

    She has long fully grey hair down to her arse. It really is shocking looking and she could easy look like a normal woman if she took a bit of pride in her appearance.
    One or two of the womem in our social circle have had a kind chat with her about her appearance and then got the tirade off her about how she isn't falsely going to change her ways for MEN. Ehm it's actually everyone who thinks you look like a witch, including your you children who listen to their friends calling their mother a witch.

    Let her look like a witch if she wants i say as long as i don't have to look at her, but Jesus she should shut up about the femenism stuff. It hurts everybody's ears, even the women's at this stage. None of us can stand to be around.d her anymore. Even the women avoid her as often as possie and have taken to having girly themes to any event they have only so that she doesn't turn up.

    And her poor children. And she wasn't like that when my friend married her. He's a shell of a man now too, but he made his bed himself. He can get out of it himself if he wants. Married to a woman who could play a witch in a movie without makeup and treated like sh1t. He even said to me he is actually afraid of how the children, 3 girls and 1 boy will turn out if he leaves.

    Can people not just be normal people anymore.

    did she catch feminism after they married? the general advise would be dont marry or even date a feminist, its bound to be a car wreck.

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • Registered Users Posts: 465 ✭✭76544567


    silverharp wrote: »
    did she catch feminism after they married? the general advise would be dont marry or even date a feminist, its bound to be a car wreck.

    It wouldnt be an abusive relationship at all. She just hates him ;)
    I think she hates everyone actually, including herself.

    In years gone by she used to go on the odd rant and we all agreed with her to her face rather than argue. But she wasnt that bad at all. Just funny.
    Roll on 10 years and she is a certifiable lunatic self professed feminist.

    The more militant she got the uglier she got, or it might have been the other way round. The uglier she got the more feminist she became.

    Even was in my house and saw my wife unloading the dishwasher and sneered at her and asked her why I wasnt doing it. The wife just said it was part of the deal when we got married, she would do the dishes and mind the kids and i would go out to work, so shes used to it - she was joking. Well that went down like a lead balloon. My wife told me she was glad there were two other friends in the house that day. They try and avoid her at all times now.

    She cant even see that all her old female friends avoid her because she is a hardline feminist. She thinks its the men that are telling them to stay away. Now us ,en like women with a mind of their own, not a mind yer wan is telling them they should have.

    Oh man, i have to stop posting here. I feel sick every time I even think of any woman long grey hair now. It is disgusting to look at and easily puts 20 years on a woman. And it shows a lack of pride in personal appearance too. Tidy yourself up for yourself or others, but tidy yourself up please.

    sorry for the little rant. I'll get my coat.

    Mod: banned.


  • Site Banned Posts: 1,489 ✭✭✭Ralf and Florian


    Sleepy wrote: »
    The comments on that article are telling - the usual numpties telling her she's not a real feminist... :rolleyes:

    And that "check your privilge" tripe.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,114 ✭✭✭ivytwine


    Hate to get all #notallfeminists but most women who I know who identify as feminists are actually fairly normal people. Many of them are in healthy relationships with men!

    There's a reason why a lot of women stay quiet during these debates, the most extreme voices are the loudest and ain't nobody got time for that.

    One bizarre zealot (not sure what her witch hair has to do with it) does not a group make.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,423 ✭✭✭✭Outlaw Pete


    Yeah, we've heard it call before... but the fact of the matter is that almost all the feminists of today in positions of power (be it just spokeswomen for the NWCI here in Ireland or feminists who manage to get themselves into Governmental positions) tend to be expressing the kind of nonsense opinions which Louise and her ilk are want to do.

    Any young lads I have spoken to about the kind of crap which she expresses (regarding rape culture etc) tell me that her voice is far from a lone one, as you suggest, and that there are a lot of young women to today (unfortunately) buying into, and identifying with, her brand of victimhood feminism.

    One bizarre zealot? If only. Truth is her voice, and those like hers, are resonating with a section of society. It's why she has been asked to speak at colleges in Ireland for example and editors in Irish newspapers are giving her a platform and indeed why old school feminists such as Camile Paglia have felt the need to speak out too of course. Were such feminists not appearing in such large numbers I doubt she would be bothering.




  • Registered Users Posts: 16,500 ✭✭✭✭DEFTLEFTHAND


    anna080 wrote: »
    Honestly I think these women just hate themselves and blame society for that and take their anger out on the world around them.

    Would agree with this, I sense that psychological issues may be present in certain cases.

    To me eyes many of these women seem to be desperately unhappy.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,114 ✭✭✭ivytwine


    Yeah, we've heard it call before... but the fact of the matter is that almost all the feminists of today in positions of power (be it just spokeswomen for the NWCI here in Ireland or feminists who manage to get themselves into Governmental positions) tend to be expressing the kind of nonsense opinions which Louise and her ilk are want to do.

    Any young lads I have spoken to about the kind of crap which she expresses (regarding rape culture etc) tell me that her voice is far from a lone one, as you suggest, and that there are a lot of young women to today (unfortunately) buying into, and identifying with, her brand of victimhood feminism.

    One bizarre zealot? If only. Truth is her voice, and those like hers, are resonating with a section of society. It's why she has been asked to speak at colleges in Ireland for example and editors in Irish newspapers are giving her a platform and indeed why old school feminists such as Camile Paglia have felt the need to speak out too of course. Were such feminists not appearing in such large numbers I doubt she would be bothering.



    I was referring to the poster with the person in his life that seems to be a horrible abusive woman with no positive traits. Someone I would choose not to engage with honestly.

    I take your point but I think we're at risk of overstating LON etc and the NWCI's actual influence on society. What has changed really? The consent classes have been a flop. The 8th is still there- and that will change because moderate people and doctors, lawyers etc are putting the groundwork in to do so. The consent ruling was actually legally needed and does, I feel, out greater clarity for how a rape case should be prosecuted. As I have said countless times the practical aspects of what rape victims have to go through, legally, with supports etc are almost never addressed by these campaigners, so nothing has changed there certainly.

    I think the risk is when you're politically engaged on a certain issue you assume everyone is. And they're not. There are people all over Ireland who just don't care about this stuff. I'm not saying the current discourse with its extremes on both sides hasn't done some damage to how men and women relate to each other, but that's always been a bit ****ed up anyway. I don't see large amounts of either outside Twitter, Tumblr, Reddit. Where it's easy to be amplified. Your average Joe and Josephine just don't engage. I guess I'm optimistic cos of humanity's apathy?

    As for young women... yes that's definitely a factor. But most I think, are like myself, able to separate the wheat from the chaff, and the minority of those who can't are just immature IMO. When I was 18 I used to believe the most ridiculous things about gender and I was terribly cynical and black and white. I'm glad twitter wasn't around! Life happened and I grew up.

    Also the reason LON etc are given their platform in the media is because newspapers are desperate for readers and clicks. They know these articles will get people talking, and reasonable positions just don't. It's unfortunately a complete mess media wise at the moment. I used to edit for a website and some of my favourite writers who were measured and reasonable (on all sorts of topics, not just politics) didn't draw engagement the way more controversial articles did. Even if they were often not as well written.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,386 ✭✭✭RabbleRouser2k


    ivytwine wrote: »
    Hate to get all #notallfeminists but most women who I know who identify as feminists are actually fairly normal people. Many of them are in healthy relationships with men!

    There's a reason why a lot of women stay quiet during these debates, the most extreme voices are the loudest and ain't nobody got time for that.

    One bizarre zealot (not sure what her witch hair has to do with it) does not a group make.

    Yeah, the comment on her appearance is a bit uncalled for-I know too many people who get that crap in their daily lives-by close minded people who just won't walk over and talk to them. Sometimes a neglect of one's outer appearance is down to something being 'off'-ie something troubling them. I know myself, if I haven't shaved my face for a week or so, it's down to something going on-so just busting out the electric razor fixes that-helps me get back to normal- i start to feel productive then. For others, that may mean more of a change.

    I've encountered a few of em-tbh, and it's sad. The loud folks scream so loud, but illogical trash-hurtful, spiteful stuff too. Like, the pay gap myth pops up again, and again. A few weeks back, a friend told me how someone she knows got into a debate with another 20 something girl about the pay gap thing-she retorted with 'but so many CEO's are male'-when he said 'but there's this person, this person,this person (all female, bar one trans woman) she shot back with 'but that person is trans'-as if being trans was so easy. Never mind the stigmas, and other opinions about a trans individual-as well as the 'they are tricking straight men/ women into having sex with them' craziness.

    I felt angry and disappointed-I know that person-she's one of these 'ultra feminists' despite relying on her boyfriend cos he has a car. Also bisexual, and her attitude, considering the stigma of bisexuality, is rather ugly.

    I won't lie though-I cannot judge a person, or most people, because up until my late teens I was homophobic-not to the point of going around beating lgbt people up, but instead saying horrible crud. And words can sting far more than some punches.
    A friend of mine is bisexual-she sort of had similar feelings as a teen, this whole 'anti-lesbian/ anti-bisexuality' thing. Until she realised how wrong she was being, as she was bisexual herself.


  • Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 26,403 Mod ✭✭✭✭Peregrine


    I've just banned two people for commenting on feminists' appearances and theorising on mental health issues. The last page or so been a cluster****. This thread was a mess a few months ago but had been okay since. If the quality of posts don't improve then I'll have no option but to close it.

    The same goes for generalisations about any groups.

    Mod


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,386 ✭✭✭RabbleRouser2k


    ivytwine wrote: »
    I take your point but I think we're at risk of overstating LON etc and the NWCI's actual influence on society. What has changed really? The consent classes have been a flop. The 8th is still there- and that will change because moderate people and doctors, lawyers etc are putting the groundwork in to do so. The consent ruling was actually legally needed and does, I feel, out greater clarity for how a rape case should be prosecuted. As I have said countless times the practical aspects of what rape victims have to go through, legally, with supports etc are almost never addressed by these campaigners, so nothing has changed there certainly.

    The biggest problem of the consent classes-well, besides the entire premise of the consent classes-is that they were founded on a falsity-too much 'hearsay', not enough facts. And when one claims hearsay as facts, it's downhill from there. And in this case, there were no facts supporting the 'facebook page'.
    So if you want to have consent classes, that is fine. Totally. But if you are saying 'we are having consent classes because of you nasty people and your 200 friends'-which turns out to be a lie, then you're in totally dangerous territory. Still think Trinity and their forced consent classes are completely illogical. To me, better sex education and 'letting someone know what's cool and what isn't' is far better. Like, don't be afraid to say 'yeah, I'm not liking that'. I mean, if one gets a burger in a takeaway, or a fancy restaurant, we are gonna say if this food tastes bad. It's just normal. Why wouldn't one do the same with intimacy?

    The people on twitter were not the folks who 'made gra the law', far from it. It was the people on the ground, folks who posted in letters and pamphlets, the genuine folks who said 'this is my life, I just want to be able to marry someone who is of the same gender to myself. I'm like you, but I just cannot marry my boyfriend/girlfriend'. And really, the tears, the joy, the looks on people's faces when it went through. IT was lovely. There were a few crazies who were like 'ban surrogacy now, so gay folks cannot have kids' as well as a gay couple who, not understanding the law, tried to get married that day, then complained to have been let 'down by their country'. I don't think they quite got that once the vote passes, it takes another couple of weeks/ months to put it into the constitution.
    I think the risk is when you're politically engaged on a certain issue you assume everyone is. And they're not. There are people all over Ireland who just don't care about this stuff. I'm not saying the current discourse with its extremes on both sides hasn't done some damage to how men and women relate to each other, but that's always been a bit ****ed up anyway. I don't see large amounts of either outside Twitter, Tumblr, Reddit. Where it's easy to be amplified. Your average Joe and Josephine just don't engage. I guess I'm optimistic cos of humanity's apathy?

    It's sort of the 'theatre of the oppressed'-claim to be starting a revolution, then actually just pushing the norms and doing nothing. Mainly because 'you cannot start a revolution with the people, because the folks paying you to publish/ print' your work, are rich folks, not ordinary joes. So if you try to rebel against them, who's gonna pay to read your stuff?
    LoN and co claim to be pushing for all this stuff to happen-but really, they are looking out for themselves. Nothing they claim to champion will happen-but they will continue to cry 'oppression'. The 'revolution' is just a vague term-like empowerment.
    As for young women... yes that's definitely a factor. But most I think, are like myself, able to separate the wheat from the chaff, and the minority of those who can't are just immature IMO. When I was 18 I used to believe the most ridiculous things about gender and I was terribly cynical and black and white. I'm glad twitter wasn't around! Life happened and I grew up.

    Also the reason LON etc are given their platform in the media is because newspapers are desperate for readers and clicks. They know these articles will get people talking, and reasonable positions just don't. It's unfortunately a complete mess media wise at the moment. I used to edit for a website and some of my favourite writers who were measured and reasonable (on all sorts of topics, not just politics) didn't draw engagement the way more controversial articles did. Even if they were often not as well written.

    Yeah, see above with the 'theatre of the oppressed'. I would imagine if you tried to tell LoN why she was writing badly, as in how her articles are badly written, you'd get told off for 'mansplaining' or 'not being a real feminist' or 'internalised misogyny'.

    Sadly, some people are so pessimistic and negative about the world, they believe all teh crud you could imagine. See Jim Corr and his claims.

    Also, this was on the twitter.
    Dear lawd-as if Irish means 'white'. They never heard of Thin Lizzy?
    https://twitter.com/femifisting/status/842870404775591936/photo/1


  • Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 26,403 Mod ✭✭✭✭Peregrine


    Again, off topic posts on appearance of feminists deleted. Some people seem to be treating this thread as an ongoing thread to discuss all aspects about feminism. Evident by the user who marched in to rant about some random feminist he knew (i.e. absolutely feck all to do with the topic) and stemmed a discussion on feminist's appearances. Back on topic please. That's 'Louise O'Neill on rape culture'.

    Mod


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,633 ✭✭✭✭Widdershins


    A poster recently complained about an obsession with Louise O'Neill and now anything not about her is being deleted! I was under the impression a slight bit of deviation from the literal wording of the title was acceptable in most Boards conversations? It's a bit restrictive to only be allowed to talk about an aspect of feminism that has been spoken about by Louise O'Neill!.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,386 ✭✭✭RabbleRouser2k


    I think it's more staying on topic with regards to relating to both LoN, and co and their belief in the 'rape culture' myth. Then discussion of that and other perceptions of it within. Like, criticising a person who starts saying 'feminism makes one physically ugly' ie appearance is not helpful at all-it's similar thinking to 'girls, don't do math, you'll get wrinkles'-totally silly thinking.

    A critique of physical appearance is unrelated to anything.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    Just to point out, some people became MRAs because they genuinely resent having grown up in what they perceive to be a gynocentric society - and their grievance is not against a particular woman or even women in general, but simply against what they see as double standards against them which go ignored, or even championed, by the exact same mainstream society which rightfully demonises and opposes any double standards which target women.

    The root cause of the growth in MRA and MGTOW movements is that many young men feel they live in a society which preaches the message "male = bad, female = good" in a not so subtle manner, and they resent this. Nothing more, nothing less.

    I for one really wish that reasonable, moderate feminists would think about this the next time they're about to click retweet or share on some article which begins with a patronising headline like "we need to talk about X..." where X is some behaviour or trait stereotypically applied to men without a "some" qualifier.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,633 ✭✭✭✭Widdershins


    I think it's more staying on topic with regards to relating to both LoN, and co and their belief in the 'rape culture' myth. Then discussion of that and other perceptions of it within. Like, criticising a person who starts saying 'feminism makes one physically ugly' ie appearance is not helpful at all-it's similar thinking to 'girls, don't do math, you'll get wrinkles'-totally silly thinking.

    A critique of physical appearance is unrelated to anything.

    I agree it's not helpful but I was trying to get at why it's done in the first place, it's all connected in a way, how women are valued on their appearance, the feminist fight against it, and the idea of rape culture. I think this one is the only active thread on feminism in any form so it would have been good to explore it a bit, I thought.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 10,633 ✭✭✭✭Widdershins


    Just to point out, some people became MRAs because they genuinely resent having grown up in what they perceive to be a gynocentric society - and their grievance is not against a particular woman or even women in general, but simply against what they see as double standards against them which go ignored, or even championed, by the exact same mainstream society which rightfully demonises and opposes any double standards which target women.

    The root cause of the growth in MRA and MGTOW movements is that many young men feel they live in a society which preaches the message "male = bad, female = good" in a not so subtle manner, and they resent this. Nothing more, nothing less.

    I for one really wish that reasonable, moderate feminists would think about this the next time they're about to click retweet or share on some article which begins with a patronising headline like "we need to talk about X..." where X is some behaviour or trait stereotypically applied to men without a "some" qualifier.

    Gynocentric society? :confused:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    Peregrine wrote: »
    I've just banned two people for commenting on feminists' appearances and theorising on mental health issues. The last page or so been a cluster****.

    And not only that, but it totally, completely and entirely undermines ideological or philosophical arguments when personal jibes like this are thrown in - we're handing them the ideological victory on a silver platter if we stoop to their level in this manner.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    Gynocentric society? :confused:

    A society which sends the message that women are inherently 'special' or matter more just because they're female. When you're a young boy growing up, without any historical or contextual knowledge, and people say things like "ladies first" and "never hit a girl even if she attacks you", and this kind of message is reinforced by pop culture in hundreds of different ways (nursery rhymes praising girls while attacking boys are particularly insidious in this regard), then what exactly is a boy supposed to think about his place in society or how he's viewed on the basis of his gender?

    Feminists are always talking (sometimes very legitimately) about how societal tropes harm girls and young women, but the fact that when people are kids girls tend to be put on an automatic gender based pedestal by adults (and thereby encouraged to do so themselves in the playground etc), this is something that is obviously going to have a knock on effect on boys' self-confidence and how they view themselves and their place in the world.

    EDIT: I can give one or two examples of how this manifests in adults, as well as in kids.

    Example A: If people on the radio are talking about women being under-represented in corporate achievement, that's a crime against humanity which is clearly caused by sexism - but if women are over-represented in educational achievement, that's a fantastic, wonderful thing and simply a sign of female potential - not the result of any systematic discrimination against males which needs to be tackled or dealt with somehow.

    Example B: The whole argument around FGM, which is a horrific and totally unacceptable thing and is rightly being roundly condemned and attacked by feminists all over the world - but even though it's far less severe, the fact that a boy's penis is seen as fair game for a surgical procedure which is done for cultural or cosmetic reasons most of the time and which alters the sexual function of the penis, sends the simple message that "girls and their bodily autonomy is a sacred, non-negotiable thing - boys, well meh who gives a f*ck, slice them up if you like".

    Honestly - what other conclusion is a preteen or teenage boy supposed to draw from these tropes? And I could ramble on providing dozens of other examples if people still didn't understand what I'm trying to illustrate here.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,948 ✭✭✭gizmo555


    . . .even though it's far less severe, the fact that a boy's penis is seen as fair game for a surgical procedure which is done for cultural or cosmetic reasons most of the time and which alters the sexual function of the penis, sends the simple message that "girls and their bodily autonomy is a sacred, non-negotiable thing - boys, well meh who gives a f*ck, slice them up if you like".

    It's not always less severe. FGM is of course abhorrent, but to the best of my knowledge, it hasn't caused the death of any Irish girl or woman. On the other hand, Callis Osaghae, a 30 day old Waterford boy, bled to death after a botched home circumcision in 2003. It doesn't get more severe than that.

    The man who carried out the circumcision was acquitted of a charge of reckless endangerment, when the late Judge Kevin Haugh instructed the jury at Waterford Circuit Court to put their "white, Western values to one side" when considering their verdict. It is, I believe, inconceivable that any such instruction would have been given if it had been a female infant who died in this way.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,633 ✭✭✭✭Widdershins


    A society which sends the message that women are inherently 'special' or matter more just because they're female. When you're a young boy growing up, without any historical or contextual knowledge, and people say things like "ladies first" and "never hit a girl even if she attacks you", and this kind of message is reinforced by pop culture in hundreds of different ways (nursery rhymes praising girls while attacking boys are particularly insidious in this regard), then what exactly is a boy supposed to think about his place in society or how he's viewed on the basis of his gender?

    Feminists are always talking (sometimes very legitimately) about how societal tropes harm girls and young women, but the fact that when people are kids girls tend to be put on an automatic gender based pedestal by adults (and thereby encouraged to do so themselves in the playground etc), this is something that is obviously going to have a knock on effect on boys' self-confidence and how they view themselves and their place in the world.

    EDIT: I can give one or two examples of how this manifests in adults, as well as in kids.

    Example A: If people on the radio are talking about women being under-represented in corporate achievement, that's a crime against humanity which is clearly caused by sexism - but if women are over-represented in educational achievement, that's a fantastic, wonderful thing and simply a sign of female potential - not the result of any systematic discrimination against males which needs to be tackled or dealt with somehow.

    Example B: The whole argument around FGM, which is a horrific and totally unacceptable thing and is rightly being roundly condemned and attacked by feminists all over the world - but even though it's far less severe, the fact that a boy's penis is seen as fair game for a surgical procedure which is done for cultural or cosmetic reasons most of the time and which alters the sexual function of the penis, sends the simple message that "girls and their bodily autonomy is a sacred, non-negotiable thing - boys, well meh who gives a f*ck, slice them up if you like".

    Honestly - what other conclusion is a preteen or teenage boy supposed to draw from these tropes? And I could ramble on providing dozens of other examples if people still didn't understand what I'm trying to illustrate here.

    I hadn't seen your edited part. Well I don't think circumcision is looked on like that. Yes FGM is more severe. I don't think there's more to this than that. I happen to know Irish women who call FGM ''just a little nick'' but they are wholly anti circumcision. It all depends on who you listen to!

    LON definitely hasn't mentioned FGM by the way. And she probably hasn't tweeted about circumcision.


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