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Louise O Neill on rape culture.
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I think part of finding a therapist is finding someone who's a good fit. But (Vela) you're right about qualifications. This is going to sound snobbish but I also think a big part is intelligence (both IQ and EQ). I went to a therapist years ago about panic attacks. Something happened to me and it triggered them. The therapist I went to was nice but any suggestions they came up with were pretty crap. I wanted to see someone who could help supply me with the mental tools I need to deal with the panic attacks whilst I worked my way through them. She felt that her job was to just listen to me talk about them.
I honestly don't know if she would have been capable to help someone who had a far worse issue like PTSD.
I think in those cases the person going to them needs to be able to say it isn't working and move on to the next therapist until the find someone they are comfortable with. However when someone is vulnerable and needs help they might not be capable of recognising it at those early stages. In that case it should be the therapist who says it, but they don't.
I agree with you there. My current psych is far more intelligent than I am, and I think I'm pretty smart! But she's got fantastic EQ and IQ and I'm blown away every week by the insights I get and tools I am given to cope.
However when you're vulnerable it's way too hard to "shop around"- especially when you're going to an organisation that is supposed to be specialising in dealing with this. The rape victim does blame his or her self, generally speaking, already. I can imagine that if you had a negative experience you'd come away thinking "I'm a rape victim and they couldn't fix me... I'm unfixable..." and therefore add even more pain to the absolute ****storm of emotions you're experiencing. Also telling someone this happened to you, especially the details, is a scary thing. You need to trust the person, and you can't establish that level of trust after one session.
As for the therapist themselves, generally they're not at the intellectual or emotional level to realise they're doing it wrong. People get attracted to this job because they're so genuinely want to help and sure when Mary down the road lost her husband didn't she come over here everyday for tea and chats and she said that I was a great help to her.
So many people I know are "trained counsellors" with dips etc and yeah, they might be fine for basic bereavement etc they don't have the skills for this. And there are some I wouldn't let counsel my cat.
I've told one person who didn't handle it well and that has really screwed me up tbh. And I'm kind of more at peace with it than some victims that might be it be more raw for.0 -
Ffs, you're trotting out the Kerry story? Again?0
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On Kerry.
It was mainly a class thing tbh. She was a single parent- he came from a good family. The reason it stands out because it is an anomaly, and people have been using it as their sole example ever since.0 -
Well, at least we agree on something
Accreditation in Ireland is completely fcuked in this regard. My guy is a qualified counseling psychologist and I wouldn't recommend that anyone who wants more than some 'life coaching' (i.e. the actual kind and not the kind run by people who post motivational slogans on Instagram), to go to anyone who doesn't have a Masters at the very least. Whether that's in couns.psych, psychotherapy, or whatever.
I have a friend who's working towards her degree in psychotherapy. She was previously a volunteer on a helpline and at that point realised it's what she wants to do.
The thing is the type of qualification, not necessarily the level. What I mean is that if you do a degree in psychology it's not at all practical. You'd have to follow it up with a masters in applied psychotherapy or something similar. Psychology degrees spend most of their time on abstract theories or on becoming an academic psychologist (research etc).
Where as the 4 year degree in psychotherapy is far more practical and actually gives more experience than the MSc.
Therapy is a weird mix of art and science. You need the scientific knowledge so the therapy has a good factual foundation but you need the ability to apply it in practice and that's almost an art form.0 -
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I agree with you there. My current psych is far more intelligent than I am, and I think I'm pretty smart! But she's got fantastic EQ and IQ and I'm blown away every week by the insights I get and tools I am given to cope.
However when you're vulnerable it's way too hard to "shop around"- especially when you're going to an organisation that is supposed to be specialising in dealing with this. The rape victim does blame his or her self, generally speaking, already. I can imagine that if you had a negative experience you'd come away thinking "I'm a rape victim and they couldn't fix me... I'm unfixable..." and therefore add even more pain to the absolute ****storm of emotions you're experiencing. Also telling someone this happened to you, especially the details, is a scary thing. You need to trust the person, and you can't establish that level of trust after one session.
As for the therapist themselves, generally they're not at the intellectual or emotional level to realise they're doing it wrong. People get attracted to this job because they're so genuinely want to help and sure when Mary down the road lost her husband didn't she come over here everyday for tea and chats and she said that I was a great help to her.
So many people I know are "trained counsellors" with dips etc and yeah, they might be fine for basic bereavement etc they don't have the skills for this. And there are some I wouldn't let counsel my cat.
I've told one person who didn't handle it well and that has really screwed me up tbh. And I'm kind of more at peace with it than some victims that might be it be more raw for.
THIS is what really gets to me re: the whole rape culture debate. There are people who have experienced the worst of the worst side of this, and they can still look at it objectively and say 'no, there isn't a rape culture in Ireland'. And then you have eejits like LON who write fictional stories and call themselves representatives of actual victims? No. It doesn't work like that. And it's fcuking insulting, to say the least.
I know myself what it's like when people don't handle it well. Some people just aren't able to. And I think that's something you eventually learn to accept, but damn - it's hard, because you lose those people from that very moment. Sure, you can stay in touch, but there will always be something broken in that relationship - be it romantic, platonic, or familial - that can never be fixed. And that's the kind of sh1t that can ruin you. I'm really sorry you had to experience that too.
And if anyone who has experienced all of that, can look at the situation objectively and say 'well, look, I've had some sh1tty experiences but it doesn't mean there's a rape culture in Ireland', then why the hell are these idiots on social media claiming that there is?0 -
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Ffs, you're dismissing an argument I constructed without actually constructing a counter argument? Again?
I think if there was anything in Tralee it was a rape microclimate. A certain type of people will band together and stick up for their cronies no matter what. Applies to all kinds of things.0 -
Ffs, you're dismissing an argument I constructed without actually constructing a counter argument? Again?
There ya go.On Kerry.
It was mainly a class thing tbh. She was a single parent- he came from a good family. The reason it stands out because it is an anomaly, and people have been using it as their sole example ever since.0 -
You're saying that culture is everyone. It's not. No-one would say that. I belong to loads of different cultures. Lad culture, gaming culture, irish culture etc... Saying that a culture exists doesn't mean that everyone belongs to it.
I could say that there's a culture of homophobia in the catholic church. It doesn't mean that all catholics are homophobic. It just means there's a group within the church that are.
Even then there's a large difference in the attitudes to gay people in the church. The new pope for example has a very different attitude than the more right wing members.
This story below is intensely disturbing. The fact that so many people would turn up to support a man convicted of rape is freaky. It shows that in Kerry at least there is a culture (Or sub culture depending on how you classify it) which supports rapists rather than the victim.
http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/people-queued-to-shake-this-sex-attackers-hand-108061.html
Now that doesn't mean that every single person in the country supports rapists. It doesn't mean that every single person in the country thinks rape is ok. It does show that there are some people with very regressive attitudes.
I think that there is an important distinction to be made between saying that 'there is a culture of rape' in a country and saying 'we live in a rape culture'. The former doesn't imply that rape is normalised and widespread in the country but the latter does! Just like saying that there is a dogging culture or subculture in Ireland doesn't imply that dogging is widespread and normalised but the statement 'we live in a dogging culture' in Ireland does. The likes of LON insists on pedaling the 'we live in a rape culture' narrative and though that doesn't imply that everyone is a rapist, it implies that rape is such a normalised and widespread occurance in society that if you are a person who doesn't rape, you are the exception to the rule. That's why saying that we live in a 'drinking culture' or 'TV watching' culture are appropriate statements, because if you don't do those things in Ireland, yo are the exception and not the rule. Now, I know that some feminists insist on saying that they are not implying that the majority of men are rapists (though some do) , they will then have to discard their 'rape culture' ideology which so many of them seem so unwilling to do for some curious reason! You don't just get to redefine the meanings of words to suit your own narrative! (not you, personally btw)
The case in Kerry was indeed horrific but it was also exceptional. It seems to me to be very insensitive and misguided to make a claim that there is a culture in Kerry that supports rapists based on one exceptional case , as appalling as it is! I know if I was a proud Kerry person, I wouldn't be too happy about that!0 -
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Donal trump 15 Women alleged he sexual assault them groped them assaulted them. so why is he President of America? ask Louise o Neill go in to a public meeting with President of America Donal trump a live Tv debate and tell him I am Louise o Neill and we have a rape culture in Ireland Like the rape culture in America and he would put her in her place . the have it to rape culture America it start in 1970s by feminist just google iT so is Louise o Neill a copy cat its cool in America we can do the same thing in Ireland.0
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Join Date:Posts: 13643
You're saying that culture is everyone. It's not. No-one would say that. I belong to loads of different cultures. Lad culture, gaming culture, irish culture etc... Saying that a culture exists doesn't mean that everyone belongs to it. I could say that there's a culture of homophobia in the catholic church. It doesn't mean that all catholics are homophobic. It just means there's a group within the church that are.
Let's not be jesuitical about this. LON and others are trying to assert that there is a pervasive culture that endorses or supports rape. She is not saying that some people are rapists even if most people disapprove of rapists. So saying that "rape culture" doesn't apply to everyone just a few people renders the whole thing meaningless. There is simply no insight or controversy in saying that some people are rapists or facilitate rapists and others are not. So what LON is saying is that the majority of our culture is supporting rape.
So pick one of two of your strawmen. Either you believe that there is a pervasive majority culture that supports and endorses rape and we can discuss it with you, or you believe that a tiny minority of people support and endorse rape and we will agree with you, end of discussion.This story below is intensely disturbing. The fact that so many people would turn up to support a man convicted of rape is freaky. It shows that in Kerry at least there is a culture (Or sub culture depending on how you classify it) which supports rapists rather than the victim.
Yes. As every other poster on this thread has said, that was an awful situation. Luckily though, society through it's media got wind of this awful occurrence and brought widespread attention and condemnation towards those people.
As an aside though, if this were a murder trial, and the accused was convicted of murder, I would be confident that many of his friends, family and acquaintances in the community would stand by him, and would maintain his innocence. This happens all the time.
So while it is wrong that he got such overwhelming support after a guilty verdict, it is not that unusual. Sure Bob Dylan wrote a song about someone who he believed to have been falsely convicted (although later changed his mind). Making a murderer was also a popular show that heavily suggested that the subjects were falsely convicted.
Again, not saying that it is right. As someone who believes in the jury system, I think people should respect that verdict while in court. But it happens all the time.
If people standing by the person convicted of murder doesn't amount to murder culture, why is that case indicative of rape culture?
Let me ask you another question - if a rape accused is acquitted and is sitting alone in the courtroom while dozens of people come up and console the complainant, is that equally wrong? If not, why not?It does show that there are some people with very regressive attitudes.
I agree with that. But it completely misses the point. No one is disputing that there is a lot of bad stuff in the world. But people on this thread take issue with the fact that these often unconnected bad things are sewn together into a theory that we live in a patriarchal rape culture, and that if I complement a random woman on the street I am implicitly endorsing rape occurring in Kerry or Galway or indeed anywhere.0 -
please helpThank YOU wrote: »Donal trump 15 Women alleged he sexual assault them groped them assaulted them. so why is he President of America? ask Louise o Neill go in to a public meeting with President of America Donal trump a live tv debate and tell him I am Louise o Neill and we have a rape culture in Ireland Like the rape culture America and he would put her in her place . the have it to rape culture America it start in 1970s by feminist just google i. t so is Louise o Neill a copy cat its cool in America we can do the same thing Ireland thing
Is that his Irish cousin?0 -
THIS is what really gets to me re: the whole rape culture debate. There are people who have experienced the worst of the worst side of this, and they can still look at it objectively and say 'no, there isn't a rape culture in Ireland'. And then you have eejits like LON who write fictional stories and call themselves representatives of actual victims? No. It doesn't work like that. And it's fcuking insulting, to say the least.
I know myself what it's like when people don't handle it well. Some people just aren't able to. And I think that's something you eventually learn to accept, but damn - it's hard, because you lose those people from that very moment. Sure, you can stay in touch, but there will always be something broken in that relationship - be it romantic, platonic, or familial - that can never be fixed. And that's the kind of sh1t that can ruin you. I'm really sorry you had to experience that too.
And if anyone who has experienced all of that, can look at the situation objectively and say 'well, look, I've had some sh1tty experiences but it doesn't mean there's a rape culture in Ireland', then why the hell are these idiots on social media claiming that there is?
Thank you for that Vela. That's articulated what I couldn't quite do.
For me, without going into too much detail, it was a romantic relationship and he would probably be on here arguing there's a rape culture in Ireland if he uses boards. So I felt safe and that he was a "woke" person and he'd get it and he did not. At all. It damn near destroyed my mind. I again went into denial (not just a river in Egypt but Ivy's favourite place) and minimised how terrible he made me feel. Until again the psych pulled it out of me. it was a while ago and I've had a few flirtations since, I'm nearly back to square one with dating. And I resent him so much. And by extension people who talk a good game and act like they give a ****e when they actually don't.
There isn't a going back with something like that, as you say. I've been really fortunate. I have only told a handful of people. One male friend has been incredible, in particular. And if there's a rape culture why have the vast majority of people I've spoken to about it been nothing but kind?
People use "rape culture" as a meme are by and large using it to fuel their own agenda, whether that's an anti-male or anti-female agenda, or a way to further their career, or to curry favour. Not all of them have bad intentions, not by any means. They get outraged at something that is wrong and they want to stop it. But the problem is this is a CRIME. Have we ever had campaigns to "stop murder"? No cos that would be daft. People are taught murder is wrong, just as they are taught rape is wrong. And every year people disregard both of these basic social rules and decide to do it anyway. We can try and punish these people but some get away with it. Many campaigners I feel forget that there's tons and tons of us out there, people trying to negotiate their way through a world that won't be quite the same, and every one of us are different. Where's the practical help? Because hysteria is not helpful.0 -
Regarding therapy, I sought therapy, myself, for OCD and depression-and yes, some of the folks I got were so unprofessionaly, or so rubbish, it was depressing, tbh. And yes, moreso than the depression. ONe therapist I went to put me on effexor (I was taking prozac, still am) and it messed me up entirely-my sleep pattern was all over the place-I was getting up at 7 pm, and going to bed at 7 or 8 am. Then sometimes I did odd things, and I Was just messed up. And that was after two weeks or so of taking it-I stopped, went back to prozac, but it took me months to get back onto the right pattern that I had before (i was making progress, then reverted-ugh-then I started making progress again). Some of the therapists I met, I dunno, you'd get some that were in the mid process of training, and had no empathy, and others that were great-really great. And then some were like 'yeah, you get 12 weeks, and after that, you're on your own'.
Regarding the OCD-again, some folks were great, and some-not so. Again, the guy who put me on effexor (which will most undoubtedly help some-just not me) told me to 'wear an elastic band on your wrist, and snap it every time you have an OCD thought'-well, I didn't even try it-as all it does is give you a sore wrist. (And from my reading, the thoughts will just get stronger-so the elastic band will be useless in a short spell of time).
Attacking a pillow can help, strangely (I always laugh at 'Analyze this' when De Niro's character shoots the pillow-then feels better).
I did wear a 'just a thought?' wrist band tho-got it from an OCD site I donated to. But what helped me with my OCD was my curiousity-I read, a lot. And so I went on book sites, and bought books, tons of em, on OCD-and they helped, enormously. I went from freaking out at the sight, sound or smell of some things, to sort of 'let it wash over you' and then slowly but surely the symptoms lessened. It's sort of like when you ignore a bully, they get bored.
I found therapists lacking-one I Really liked, but travelling to an fro was a problem-others were like 'here's some medication-I don't wanna know'.
This story below is intensely disturbing. The fact that so many people would turn up to support a man convicted of rape is freaky. It shows that in Kerry at least there is a culture (Or sub culture depending on how you classify it) which supports rapists rather than the victim.
Dear sweet God...did you actually type that with a degree of how blinkered and ridiculously insulting it is? You've blanket statemented an entire county, and said that the people of that county support rape.
What kind of mentality is that??? That's so wrong, on so many levels, that the language I want to use right now would get me banned from boards. So I won't.
You could cite this case in Clare as 'the entire county of clare supports rape'. http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/rape-victims-horror-as-attacker-walks-free-301990.html
You could even say that because she had to travel home, on the same train, with her rapist, that the 'train company supports rape'...as do all the passengers on that train.
Do you see how ridiculously stupid such a claim is? But it's not far from what you have said.
Yet here we are. That case was anything but based on 'supporting rape'...the '50' locals came out to support him, yes-and they were stupid to do so. Those 50 people were vilified, both within and without the county-and mocked and derided nationally. And rightfully so. NOBODY who knew the rapist was surprised he was a complete D-bag. I have friends who knew him, before his conviction, and said that he was the reason they avoided the club he was a bouncer at-he was scummy. His claim to 'help the guards' was balderdash-many of those same guards testified he was often a cause of concern or his behaviour made folks uncomfortable.
I grew up in Kerry-I know the town in question. Nobody supports rape there-nobody. Everyone was horrified by the case, and horrified even more by the actions of the people, and that one priest in particular.
I cannot imagine how alone that poor girl felt seeing that happen.
But that was an incident that nobody but the most insane would blame the entire 'people of Kerry' for.0 -
There ya go.
That's providing a background to the issue but doesn't dismiss the fact that it happened. It's like me saying "Someone was speeding" and you saying "It was a blue car".
The point of rape culture is that it diminishes rape in a number of ways. At the start of this article it gives two definitions of rape culture.The Oxford English Dictionary defines rape culture as “A society… whose prevailing social attitudes have the effect of normalising or trivialising sexual assault and abuse”. Wikipedia adds: “Behaviours commonly associated… include victim blaming, sexual objectification, trivialising rape, denial of widespread rape, refusing to acknowledge the harm caused by some forms of sexual violence, or some combination of these.”
The fact is that in the Kerry case they did try to dismiss it. Even after knowing the details of the case (which are pretty horrific) the parish priest still said "well, she was a single mother and that doesn't look good". What the **** does being a single mother have to do with anything.Of Foley’s victim, Father Sheehy said: “I don’t want to make any judgment on her at all, but obviously the whole situation must have been embarrassing, for the police to happen upon them and what-not. She’s the mother of a young child as well and, you know, that in itself doesn’t look great.”
If you lived in Kerry do you think you'd feel comfortable reporting a sexual assault or do you think you'd fear the social ramifications of reporting it. Would you want to turn up at a trial when all the rapists friends turn up and support them in that manner?
The majority of rapes go unreported because women are scared of the social stigma or are scared that they won't be believed. What sort of society is it where a woman who's raped is scared of societies judgement? And that's not just Kerry. That's throughout Ireland.0 -
Thank you for that Vela. That's articulated what I couldn't quite do.
For me, without going into too much detail, it was a romantic relationship and he would probably be on here arguing there's a rape culture in Ireland if he uses boards. So I felt safe and that he was a "woke" person and he'd get it and he did not. At all. It damn near destroyed my mind. I again went into denial (not just a river in Egypt but Ivy's favourite place) and minimised how terrible he made me feel. Until again the psych pulled it out of me. it was a while ago and I've had a few flirtations since, I'm nearly back to square one with dating. And I resent him so much. And by extension people who talk a good game and act like they give a ****e when they actually don't.
There isn't a going back with something like that, as you say. I've been really fortunate. I have only told a handful of people. One male friend has been incredible, in particular. And if there's a rape culture why have the vast majority of people I've spoken to about it been nothing but kind?
People use "rape culture" as a meme are by and large using it to fuel their own agenda, whether that's an anti-male or anti-female agenda, or a way to further their career, or to curry favour. Not all of them have bad intentions, not by any means. They get outraged at something that is wrong and they want to stop it. But the problem is this is a CRIME. Have we ever had campaigns to "stop murder"? No cos that would be daft. People are taught murder is wrong, just as they are taught rape is wrong. And every year people disregard both of these basic social rules and decide to do it anyway. We can try and punish these people but some get away with it. Many campaigners I feel forget that there's tons and tons of us out there, people trying to negotiate their way through a world that won't be quite the same, and every one of us are different. Where's the practical help? Because hysteria is not helpful.
One thing I've learned about romantic partners is that they often think they understand until they're faced with it head-on. And that's the kicker. I've had similar situations, one in particular, and I'd never excuse that behaviour from someone who's meant to care about you. Or from anyone. I understand the resentment so much, because when someone who's meant to 'know' you turns on you when you need them most - it's fcuking soul destroying. It set me back so much in my own recovery. But there is one thing that I've come to realise and that's that some people just aren't emotionally equipped to deal with it. And that's not your fault. That's just how it is. And it's on them - not you. That's not 'playing the victim' either, that's looking at a situation objectively and saying 'this person is a negative influence on my life and can't deal with my situation' and being strong enough to walk away.
In the two main instances where I've experienced something like this, the people involved both had their own mental health sh1t going on at the time that I was unaware of. They've both since explained and apologised. It was too little too late in both cases, for something that had a devastating affect on me in both instances, but you can't carry that sh1t around with you so I've tried to accept those apologies. It's just a lot harder to forget.
Anyway, my point from that is; it's very hard for someone who isn't a fully trained therapist to understand what a victim goes through, so it must be almost impossible for a friend or partner to understand. What it boils down to, is whether or not they try to understand. And if they don't, then it's inexcusable regardless.
Also, similarly to you, my closest confidant and the person who got me through most of it was a male friend.
So, rape culture? No. Narrow-mindedness? Selfishness? Narcissism? A lack of empathy? Yes - there's loads of that. And that's something that reveals itself in a lot of people once they're confronted with something like this. I guess it shows you who your real friends are.0 -
RabbleRouser2k wrote: »I grew up in Kerry-I know the town in question. Nobody supports rape there-nobody. Everyone was horrified by the case, and horrified even more by the actions of the people, and that one priest in particular.
I cannot imagine how alone that poor girl felt seeing that happen.
But that was an incident that nobody but the most insane would blame the entire 'people of Kerry' for.
I wouldn't say everybody. There were enough people lining up to support the rapist. But that's the problem. If you look through my posts I'm made certain not to say that everyone is like that. It's a culture all right but a subculture might be a better word.
There's one good thing about the kerry case and that's that those idiots who supported the rapist got ripped apart for it. They now realise that that sort of behaviour is unacceptable.
The problem is that those attitudes do exist in society and they do pollute the discourse. That's why so many women fear saying they were raped. What we need is more of the reaction to the Kerry case whilst at the same time not denying that these people exist and that there is a problem.
It's better than it was. 30 years ago rape victims would have faced a lot worse. Now at least the pendulum of public opinion has swung the other way.
As for medication. I was placed on seroxat. It was horrible. I was placed on lexepro afterwards. about 90% of my symptoms disappeared in a week. I think just like therapists you have to shop around to get the right treatment and if it's not working for you, then you should go somewhere else. But as Vela said, unfortunately most people when they go to therapy are very vulnerable. And they also tend to see the therapist as an authority figure. So saying "this isn't working for me. And by this, I mean you" isn't something most feel comfortable with.0 -
this by far the best post I have read so far in the thinking and its very fair to alljohnnyskeleton wrote: »Let's not be jesuitical about this. LON and others are trying to assert that there is a pervasive culture that endorses or supports rape. She is not saying that some people are rapists even if most people disapprove of rapists. So saying that "rape culture" doesn't apply to everyone just a few people renders the whole thing meaningless. There is simply no insight or controversy in saying that some people are rapists or facilitate rapists and others are not. So what LON is saying is that the majority of our culture is supporting rape.
So pick one of two of your strawmen. Either you believe that there is a pervasive majority culture that supports and endorses rape and we can discuss it with you, or you believe that a tiny minority of people support and endorse rape and we will agree with you, end of discussion.
Yes. As every other poster on this thread has said, that was an awful situation. Luckily though, society through it's media got wind of this awful occurrence and brought widespread attention and condemnation towards those people.
As an aside though, if this were a murder trial, and the accused was convicted of murder, I would be confident that many of his friends, family and acquaintances in the community would stand by him, and would maintain his innocence. This happens all the time.
So while it is wrong that he got such overwhelming support after a guilty verdict, it is not that unusual. Sure Bob Dylan wrote a song about someone who he believed to have been falsely convicted (although later changed his mind). Making a murderer was also a popular show that heavily suggested that the subjects were falsely convicted.
Again, not saying that it is right. As someone who believes in the jury system, I think people should respect that verdict while in court. But it happens all the time.
If people standing by the person convicted of murder doesn't amount to murder culture, why is that case indicative of rape culture?
Let me ask you another question - if a rape accused is acquitted and is sitting alone in the courtroom while dozens of people come up and console the complainant, is that equally wrong? If not, why not?
I agree with that. But it completely misses the point. No one is disputing that there is a lot of bad stuff in the world. But people on this thread take issue with the fact that these often unconnected bad things are sewn together into a theory that we live in a patriarchal rape culture, and that if I complement a random woman on the street I am implicitly endorsing rape occurring in Kerry or Galway or indeed anywhere.0 -
I think just like therapists you have to shop around to get the right treatment and if it's not working for you, then you should go somewhere else. But as Vela said, unfortunately most people when they go to therapy are very vulnerable. And they also tend to see the therapist as an authority figure. So saying "this isn't working for me. And by this, I mean you" isn't something most feel comfortable with.
I actually did do this in the RCC. That woman was so fcuking incompetent and pushed me so much that I was hysterical in there. So I went back one more time and said 'I don't think you're qualified to help me, so I won't be coming back'. She did not react well - or at least like you'd think a therapist should. Which was a lot of what my complaint was based on.
Looking back, I still don't know how I did it tbh. I think it was out of sheer rage and desperation.0 -
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I was just thinking for a min could Louise o Neill the rape culture expert be a member of boards and post here? ? just a thought came into my head ?0
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please helpThank YOU wrote: »I was just thinking for a min could Louise o Neill the rape culture expert be a member of boards and post here? ? just a thought came into my head ?
Nope, apparently only straight and white males do.0 -
That's providing a background to the issue but doesn't dismiss the fact that it happened. It's like me saying "Someone was speeding" and you saying "It was a blue car".
The point of rape culture is that it diminishes rape in a number of ways. At the start of this article it gives two definitions of rape culture.
The fact is that in the Kerry case they did try to dismiss it. Even after knowing the details of the case (which are pretty horrific) the parish priest still said "well, she was a single mother and that doesn't look good". What the **** does being a single mother have to do with anything.
If you lived in Kerry do you think you'd feel comfortable reporting a sexual assault or do you think you'd fear the social ramifications of reporting it. Would you want to turn up at a trial when all the rapists friends turn up and support them in that manner?
The majority of rapes go unreported because women are scared of the social stigma or are scared that they won't be believed. What sort of society is it where a woman who's raped is scared of societies judgement? And that's not just Kerry. That's throughout Ireland.
The fact is that it's extremely relevant. Ireland is in denial about its class system but I can guarantee you as someone on the bottom rung of it in a rural town, as I grew up on, it exists. Is it rape culture to dismiss the experience of a lower class victim? Nope, it's class discrimination.
In fact one of my main criticisms of much of the debate around rape culture is the focus on college campuses and consent classes. It excludes those who don't go to third level completely. Especially in the US. At least you've some chance of going to college in Ireland if you're working class.
That priest is a moron. Wouldn't waste my time on him. He's not emblematic of a wider culture, not even in the Church, where such open discrimination against single parents is no longer acceptable.
I think sexism was a factor, for sure, but class and "family reputation" and all sorts of bull that unless you grew up in a town like that it, it's hard to quantify all mixed up together to create a toxic mix.
You've had a Kerry person point out to you the feeling towards this man in the county. Why would a Kerry rape victim be less willing to report?0 -
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One thing I've learned about romantic partners is that they often think they understand until they're faced with it head-on. And that's the kicker. I've had similar situations, one in particular, and I'd never excuse that behaviour from someone who's meant to care about you. Or from anyone. I understand the resentment so much, because when someone who's meant to 'know' you turns on you when you need them most - it's fcuking soul destroying. It set me back so much in my own recovery. But there is one thing that I've come to realise and that's that some people just aren't emotionally equipped to deal with it. And that's not your fault. That's just how it is. And it's on them - not you. That's not 'playing the victim' either, that's looking at a situation objectively and saying 'this person is a negative influence on my life and can't deal with my situation' and being strong enough to walk away.
In the two main instances where I've experienced something like this, the people involved both had their own mental health sh1t going on at the time that I was unaware of. They've both since explained and apologised. It was too little too late in both cases, for something that had a devastating affect on me in both instances, but you can't carry that sh1t around with you so I've tried to accept those apologies. It's just a lot harder to forget.
Anyway, my point from that is; it's very hard for someone who isn't a fully trained therapist to understand what a victim goes through, so it must be almost impossible for a friend or partner to understand. What it boils down to, is whether or not they try to understand. And if they don't, then it's inexcusable regardless.
Also, similarly to you, my closest confidant and the person who got me through most of it was a male friend.
So, rape culture? No. Narrow-mindedness? Selfishness? Narcissism? A lack of empathy? Yes - there's loads of that. And that's something that reveals itself in a lot of people once they're confronted with something like this. I guess it shows you who your real friends are.
Absolutely. I also believe that for some people there's an element of being sheltered, of maybe having a certain idea of a rape victim being an absolute wreck... and when you're able to hold down a job, laugh and joke and live normally that disconnect can shock them profoundly.
I have great friends and I am really lucky. And they are real, they're there for me.
Yeah in my case the other person had issues too. But he didn't really try. Hugs to you. It's hard I know x0 -
I wouldn't say everybody. There were enough people lining up to support the rapist. But that's the problem. If you look through my posts I'm made certain not to say that everyone is like that. It's a culture all right but a subculture might be a better word.
No, you've very clearly insinuated that Kerry, in particular, has this 'rape culture'. And you've only now tried to back pedal on it. Your quotes below, just a selection, show a clearly wrong headed view.If you lived in Kerry do you think you'd feel comfortable reporting a sexual assault or do you think you'd fear the social ramifications of reporting it. Would you want to turn up at a trial when all the rapists friends turn up and support them in that manner?
The majority of rapes go unreported because women are scared of the social stigma or are scared that they won't be believed. What sort of society is it where a woman who's raped is scared of societies judgement? And that's not just Kerry. That's throughout Ireland.
This story below is intensely disturbing. The fact that so many people would turn up to support a man convicted of rape is freaky. It shows that in Kerry at least there is a culture (Or sub culture depending on how you classify it) which supports rapists rather than the victim.
Seriously, what is your issue with this place in particular? There is no 'subculture' there is no 'culture' there either-you've implied it quite often, but each time it's just adding insult to injury. And the worst thing is-you don't get it. You don't get what you are saying-and how you're ignoring other cases in order to make a, arguably, heinous and abhorrent claim about an entire county, and the people within-many of whom have gone through the courts in order to prosecute their rapists (I know one person in particular who went to court as a teenager, to convict her rapist-she grew up in Kerry too, and your statement would insinuate that she was also supporting a rape culture-and that by even setting foot in court, she hadn't a hope of proving she was raped. Yet her rapist did 10+ years in jail).
Tim Allen, Darina's husband, was convicted of posession of child pornography-instead of going to jail, he paid 40 grand, and did community service. This, despite paying for images of children being abused and molested, and thus actually helping support a paedophilia network (he was tracked based on his credit card purchases). Do we now say that Ballymaloe cookery school, of which he was a part (and is still seen there, on occassion, from what I've heard) supports paedophiles, or a 'rape culture'? I mean, he brought his family to court with him, kids and wife in tow-does that mean everyone associated with Ballymaloe is now a 'rape apologist'? What the Allen's did was a completely scum bag thing to do-I wouldn't have allowed the guy any where near any member of my family. But I cannot paint the entire people of Ballymaloe, be they employed by the cookery school or locals near it, as rape apologists. I would also be angry at the judge who claimed the images 'were on the lesser scale of abuse pictures'...
Yet Darina and her family got a ton of support and 'hugs' after Allen's conviction-arguably far more than 50 people. People visted Darina at farmer's markets and offered her 'support'. Does that imply a 'paedophilia' culture there too?
RTE even aired a Darina Allen cooking show, shortly after the case-when people were 'FURIOUS' with it, RTE made the 'oh, she wasn't involved in what Tim did'-so now RTE are paedophilia apologists too? (Well, kind of. Allen had filmed one series for RTE, of a cooking show, but it didn't return-this was years before his arrest).
Do you think any of the children within those images were supported? No, they continued to be abused...and Allen helped.
(In the same week Allen avoided jail, another guy went to prison for 7 days on a conviction of throwing a cigarette out a window-this despite the guard who made the claim being unable to tell what type of cigarette it was-a rolled up one, a herbal one, or one of those pre-made box ciggies).0 -
The fact is that it's extremely relevant. Ireland is in denial about its class system but I can guarantee you as someone on the bottom rung of it in a rural town, as I grew up on, it exists. Is it rape culture to dismiss the experience of a lower class victim? Nope, it's class discrimination.
In fact one of my main criticisms of much of the debate around rape culture is the focus on college campuses and consent classes. It excludes those who don't go to third level completely. Especially in the US. At least you've some chance of going to college in Ireland if you're working class.
That priest is a moron. Wouldn't waste my time on him. He's not emblematic of a wider culture, not even in the Church, where such open discrimination against single parents is no longer acceptable.
I think sexism was a factor, for sure, but class and "family reputation" and all sorts of bull that unless you grew up in a town like that it, it's hard to quantify all mixed up together to create a toxic mix.
You've had a Kerry person point out to you the feeling towards this man in the county. Why would a Kerry rape victim be less willing to report?
I'd be less likely to report a crime if I thought my town would turn against me. And if I thought my attacker would be surrounded by his friends in court who'd stand there and shake his hands after he was found guilty. What's worse in this case is that he wasn't even her alleged attacker. The trail was nearly complete.
And here's the thing about rape culture. In a discussion about whether or not it exists, the causes don't matter. If you try to say that it's class etc then you admit it does exist but you're just saying why.
I'm not a rapist. I'm assuming that most of the guys I know aren't rapists. I've heard nothing from them or anyone else to suggest they have bad attitudes towards any women. That doesn't mean that there aren't people out there who have backwards attitudes.
In a European survey on attitudes to gender based violence, including rape, 7% of irish women and 11% of irish men said that sex without consent is OK if the woman is wearing sexy clothing.
The good news is that a huge majority said it wasn't acceptable, but still the number that said it was is shocking. (As a side note, the best performing countries in Europe were in Scandanavia where 3% said it was ok. The worst was Romania where 25% of people said it was ok).0 -
RabbleRouser2k wrote: »No, you've very clearly insinuated that Kerry, in particular, has this 'rape culture'. And you've only now tried to back pedal on it. Your quotes below, just a selection, show a clearly wrong headed view.
Seriously, what is your issue with this place in particular? There is no 'subculture' there is no 'culture' there either-you've implied it quite often, but each time it's just adding insult to injury. And the worst thing is-you don't get it. You don't get what you are saying-and how you're ignoring other cases in order to make a, arguably, heinous and abhorrent claim about an entire county, and the people within-many of whom have gone through the courts in order to prosecute their rapists (I know one person in particular who went to court as a teenager, to convict her rapist-she grew up in Kerry too, and your statement would insinuate that she was also supporting a rape culture-and that by even setting foot in court, she hadn't a hope of proving she was raped. Yet her rapist did 10+ years in jail).
Tim Allen, Darina's husband, was convicted of posession of child pornography-instead of going to jail, he paid 40 grand, and did community service. This, despite paying for images of children being abused and molested, and thus actually helping support a paedophilia network (he was tracked based on his credit card purchases). Do we now say that Ballymaloe cookery school, of which he was a part (and is still seen there, on occassion, from what I've heard) supports paedophiles, or a 'rape culture'? I mean, he brought his family to court with him, kids and wife in tow-does that mean everyone associated with Ballymaloe is now a 'rape apologist'? What the Allen's did was a completely scum bag thing to do-I wouldn't have allowed the guy any where near any member of my family. But I cannot paint the entire people of Ballymaloe, be they employed by the cookery school or locals near it, as rape apologists. I would also be angry at the judge who claimed the images 'were on the lesser scale of abuse pictures'...
Yet Darina and her family got a ton of support and 'hugs' after Allen's conviction-arguably far more than 50 people. People visted Darina at farmer's markets and offered her 'support'. Does that imply a 'paedophilia' culture there too?
RTE even aired a Darina Allen cooking show, shortly after the case-when people were 'FURIOUS' with it, RTE made the 'oh, she wasn't involved in what Tim did'-so now RTE are paedophilia apologists too? (Well, kind of. Allen had filmed one series for RTE, of a cooking show, but it didn't return-this was years before his arrest).
Do you think any of the children within those images were supported? No, they continued to be abused...and Allen helped.
(In the same week Allen avoided jail, another guy went to prison for 7 days on a conviction of throwing a cigarette out a window-this despite the guard who made the claim being unable to tell what type of cigarette it was-a rolled up one, a herbal one, or one of those pre-made box ciggies).
No, I've always said that it's not everyone. I've always said "culture" does not imply everyone. I know you're taking it personally but I've never said that Kerry as a whole has a rape culture.
And I stand by what I said about society as a whole. Women should not be afraid of stigma when reporting a sexual assault. As a society we need to make sure that it doesn't happen. The reason women feel afraid of reporting is partly because of incidents like that in Kerry.0 -
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And here's the thing about rape culture. In a discussion about whether or not it exists, the causes don't matter. If you try to say that it's class etc then you admit it does exist but you're just saying why.
I think that shows that people will support their peers despite what they did. It's not rape specific. I can guarantee you that's what would happen if I, as an outsider, non drinker, non hurling supporter and non church goer who isn't particularly chummy with the neighbours, in a rural area, took a stand against one of my neighbours, for any reason.
[/QUOTE]In a European survey on attitudes to gender based violence, including rape, 7% of irish women and 11% of irish men said that sex without consent is OK if the woman is wearing sexy clothing.
The good news is that a huge majority said it wasn't acceptable, but still the number that said it was is shocking. (As a side note, the best performing countries in Europe were in Scandanavia where 3% said it was ok. The worst was Romania where 25% of people said it was ok).[/QUOTE]
I'm fairly sure that survey result was debunked as deeply flawed and skewed0 -
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I'd be less likely to report a crime if I thought my town would turn against me. And if I thought my attacker would be surrounded by his friends in court who'd stand there and shake his hands after he was found guilty. What's worse in this case is that he wasn't even her alleged attacker. The trail was nearly complete.
You're not getting this at all.
I think I've a little bit of insight into this woman's mindset. I wouldn't presume to speak for her, but she would have had this **** her entire life. She probably knew that people would side with her rapist. And yet she went on and reported it anyway. I apologise if you're actually from a small town- different from a village, or the depths of the countryside. It's hard to survive if your family doesn't have a "name" or if you're different.And here's the thing about rape culture. In a discussion about whether or not it exists, the causes don't matter. If you try to say that it's class etc then you admit it does exist but you're just saying why.
Ok. So this lady gets fired in favour of her bosses niece (not uncommon in this kind of situation honestly). So is that rape culture, or class discrimination?
Say if this man had raped the local solicitors wife, or the captain of the ladies golf club, do you think the MINORITY of ****ing idiots who shook his hand would have still done so?
Is rape culture in action then? What do you believe causes rape culture? Because I don't believe in it. And I'm a victim of the crime. The person who did that to me chose to do so. He was the only person who made that decision. And I've faced almost nothing but kindness and support from people I've told- except from one who made the biggest noise about these kind of issues on social media.I'm not a rapist. I'm assuming that most of the guys I know aren't rapists. I've heard nothing from them or anyone else to suggest they have bad attitudes towards any women. That doesn't mean that there aren't people out there who have backwards attitudes.
In a European survey on attitudes to gender based violence, including rape, 7% of irish women and 11% of irish men said that sex without consent is OK if the woman is wearing sexy clothing.
The good news is that a huge majority said it wasn't acceptable, but still the number that said it was is shocking. (As a side note, the best performing countries in Europe were in Scandanavia where 3% said it was ok. The worst was Romania where 25% of people said it was ok).
I don't think any of the men posting here would agree with those statements in the survey. And most of them would agree wholeheartedly with the first paragraph quoted there. I believe it's when they're hearing people saying that they're responsible for stopping rape and so on by people like LON they understandably get a little frustrated.
I've said about ninety million times now that I believe there's a conversation to be had about the judiciary, practical help for victims etc. That's not the one being had tho.0
This discussion has been closed.
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