Louise O Neill on rape culture.

ivytwine · 11-03-2017 10:28pm

Grayson wrote: »

No, I've always said that it's not everyone. I've always said "culture" does not imply everyone. I know you're taking it personally but I've never said that Kerry as a whole has a rape culture.

And I stand by what I said about society as a whole. Women should not be afraid of stigma when reporting a sexual assault. As a society we need to make sure that it doesn't happen. The reason women feel afraid of reporting is partly because of incidents like that in Kerry.

And more to do with dealing with gardai, barristers, judges, the cost of the whole ****ing thing, being brought to notice in front of everyone (in Ireland, it doesn't matter if you're officially anonymous, people will know who you are). I again have largely encountered kindness. But I don't want people to look at me and think "oh the poor thing". Because it's one night out of my life at the end of the day. One awful night, but I'm here. People have their own reasons for doing things, and it may sound strange, being treated with kid gloves can be just as irksome.

There was a high profile rape in my town. The little scrote who did it was almost ripped limb from limb. Does my town have a rape culture?

mzungu · 11-03-2017 10:57pm

Grayson wrote: »

That's providing a background to the issue but doesn't dismiss the fact that it happened. It's like me saying "Someone was speeding" and you saying "It was a blue car".

The point of rape culture is that it diminishes rape in a number of ways. At the start of this article it gives two definitions of rape culture.

The Oxford English Dictionary defines rape culture as “A society… whose prevailing social attitudes have the effect of normalising or trivialising sexual assault and abuse”. Wikipedia adds: “Behaviours commonly associated… include victim blaming, sexual objectification, trivialising rape, denial of widespread rape, refusing to acknowledge the harm caused by some forms of sexual violence, or some combination of these.”

Do some people in the country engage in the above? Yes, they sure do. However, I don't think that could be used to describe society at large. Could we say Americans are pro-castration because the audience laughed at Sharon Osbourne's joke about some man having his bits chopped off by his wife? Also, Lorena Bobbitt is not exactly a hate figure either, so could we not say that kind of violence is accepted among the population? I don't think so anyways. We can pick and choose stuff like the above and draw conclusions from it, but that does not mean they are in any way accurate.

Grayson wrote: »

The fact is that in the Kerry case they did try to dismiss it. Even after knowing the details of the case (which are pretty horrific) the parish priest still said "well, she was a single mother and that doesn't look good". What the **** does being a single mother have to do with anything.

They are utter imbeciles, but I would imagine if he had beaten a man to death he would have got the same reception. They were there to support him no matter what the crime. As for the priest....well, that is a scumbag comment. But I don't think we can take the utterances of a parish priest as some kind of social critique. That might be the one and only time in the past 25 years that anybody in the country took notice of anything a priest has said. Mainly because they were disgusted by what he said.

Grayson wrote:

I wouldn't say everybody. There were enough people lining up to support the rapist. But that's the problem. If you look through my posts I'm made certain not to say that everyone is like that. It's a culture all right but a subculture might be a better word.

Yep, you didn't say everyone was at it, but a subculture could mean anything one wants it to mean and it could be as large or small depending on who you wish to ask. This casts a net far and wide to the point of making things pretty meaningless. There is probably a subculture out there that claims Tony McCarroll* was the brains behind Oasis. It doesn't mean that wider society thinks so, or that other Oasis subculture groups might share the same view. A few outliers does not equate to society at large.

Grayson wrote:

There's one good thing about the kerry case and that's that those idiots who supported the rapist got ripped apart for it. They now realise that that sort of behaviour is unacceptable.

Aye, they were ripped apart by a society that abhors what they did. When has Irish society (other than those folks in Kerry) ever reacted with anything other than horror over a rape case? If that kind of thing in Kerry was happening consistently then there might be something to it. But it made headlines and everybody remembers it precisely because it was out of the norm.

Grayson wrote:

The problem is that those attitudes do exist in society and they do pollute the discourse. That's why so many women fear saying they were raped. What we need is more of the reaction to the Kerry case whilst at the same time not denying that these people exist and that there is a problem.

I don't deny for a second that these people exist and that those attitudes do exist. All kinds of horrible attitudes exist in Irish society. Thankfully in a minority otherwise we would all be facing violence as part of everyday life. I just don't believe it equates to Ireland having a "rape culture" any more than we have a "murder culture" or "assault culture". What we have is the dregs of society acting like like dregs of society do, and always will do.

As regards sentencing, I think they are too lenient (same for most crimes) and much longer sentences for sexual offences would be a good starting point.

*They say the drumming on Definitely Maybe is crap, but I think it suits the sound of the album just fine. On balance, they were right to sack him all the same.

RabbleRouser2k · 11-03-2017 11:08pm

Grayson wrote: »

No, I've always said that it's not everyone. I've always said "culture" does not imply everyone. I know you're taking it personally but I've never said that Kerry as a whole has a rape culture.

And I stand by what I said about society as a whole. Women should not be afraid of stigma when reporting a sexual assault. As a society we need to make sure that it doesn't happen. The reason women feel afraid of reporting is partly because of incidents like that in Kerry.

No county in ireland has a rape culture-to even imply there is a 'sub culture', as you have, is insulting society and people as a whole. I'm taking it personally, as a person, not as a kerry person. Your back pedalling, as well as trying to say 'as a whole'...is going back to your word 'sub culture'. And yet you don't see the damage your words imply. And that's tragic.

IT's similar to how Limerick people get insulted with the 'stab city' label-when Dublin has a higher rate of crime. But that's the media's obsession with projection. I cited the Allen case as one case where folks didn't even parade the 'rape culture' myth, at the time, despite Allen's actual involvement in sexual abuse of kids. He helped fund and create it.
And yet Darina Allen received far more support from common folks-and is allowed on TV all the time. Yet her husbands crime is far from innocent-and she gets all this support from RTe. Does it cite an example of supporting paedophilia?

No person should be ashamed to report rape-but the Kerry case was about nothing to do with the rape-we had incidents where politicians gave character references for rapists-saying they were of 'good character'-that is far more damaging. Far more horrific. The priest and the locals were idiots- but they were just that, idiots.
The support of Allen and co was FAR more damaging to victims of sexual abuse-far more. The coverage, the 'kindness' shown to the allens-we have had a number of high profile cases of sexual abuse-by people who were afraid to report their abuser. Just look how long it took Saville's victims to feel comfortable coming forward.
Imagine being a child/ adult, and survivor of child abuse, seeing that.

But that doesn't imply we have a paedophile culture here in IReland, no more than the examples you cited.

But I Feel my words falling on deaf ears, tbh.

mzungu · 11-03-2017 11:10pm

Grayson wrote: »

I'd be less likely to report a crime if I thought my town would turn against me. And if I thought my attacker would be surrounded by his friends in court who'd stand there and shake his hands after he was found guilty. What's worse in this case is that he wasn't even her alleged attacker. The trail was nearly complete.

Would that not happen in all types of court cases? Being surrounded by family and friends?

Grayson wrote:

And here's the thing about rape culture. In a discussion about whether or not it exists, the causes don't matter. If you try to say that it's class etc then you admit it does exist but you're just saying why.

Nobody disputes rapes happen. What is disputed is that there is a "rape culture".

Grayson wrote:

I'm not a rapist. I'm assuming that most of the guys I know aren't rapists. I've heard nothing from them or anyone else to suggest they have bad attitudes towards any women. That doesn't mean that there aren't people out there who have backwards attitudes.

Unfortunately, there are some people out there with backwards attitudes. It wouldn't make it a culture, though.

Grayson wrote:

In a European survey on attitudes to gender based violence, including rape, 7% of irish women and 11% of irish men said that sex without consent is OK if the woman is wearing sexy clothing.
The good news is that a huge majority said it wasn't acceptable, but still the number that said it was is shocking. (As a side note, the best performing countries in Europe were in Scandanavia where 3% said it was ok. The worst was Romania where 25% of people said it was ok).

Is this the study you are referring to?

The results don't seem to make much sense.

For example, the results state that 21% said sex without consent is acceptable in certain situations and 11% said being drunk or on drugs justifies sex without consent.

But at the same time....

97% said violence against women was not acceptable.
99% said that sending unwanted texts/pictures of a sexual nature was wrong.
97% said making lewd remarks in public was wrong.
99% thought that making unwanted physical contact with a colleague was wrong.

How exactly do these two sets of figures add up? Violence against women, lewd remarks, unwanted pictures and contact is shown to be unacceptable by 97% and higher, but then 21% believe sex without consent is fine?

Something is not right with the above.

Also, we don't know how they defined consent (or even if they did define it) for the study. I think clues to the results may lie in the wording of the wording of the questions.

Here is the question from it concerning consent that the figures were taken from:

QB10 Some people believe that having sexual intercourse without consent may be justified in certain situations. Do you think this applies to the following circumstances?

(SHOW SCREEN - READ OUT - MULTIPLE ANSWERS POSSIBLE)

Wearing revealing, provocative or sexy clothing
Being drunk or using drugs
Flirting beforehand
Not clearly saying no or physically fighting back
Being out walking alone at night,
Having several sexual partners
Voluntarily going home with someone, for example after a party or date
If the assailant does not realise what they were doing
If the assailant regrets his actions
None of these
Refusal (SPONTANEOUS)
Don't know

Take the wording of the question itself. It starts off with "Some people believe that having sexual intercourse without consent may be justified in certain situations." So, immediately it is guiding the respondent to think of other people rather than him or herself. Then asks "Do you think this applies to the following circumstances?"

That leaves a hell of a lot of room for misinterpretation.

RabbleRouser2k · 12-03-2017 1:56am

Smegmaniac17 wrote: »

The case in Kerry was indeed horrific but it was also exceptional. It seems to me to be very insensitive and misguided to make a claim that there is a culture in Kerry that supports rapists based on one exceptional case , as appalling as it is! I know if I was a proud Kerry person, I wouldn't be too happy about that!

We see class systems all the time-Tim Allen, the chef, as I mentioned. He got so much support from locals, it was disgusting.

OR the Judge Curtin case- where the warrant used to obtain child porn off of his computer was a day out of date. So he walked free from court, despite him being clearly guilty. Do you honestly think that if he was 'Joe Curtin, the plumber' that he'd have gotten away so easily? He only stepped down from his job by claiming health problems-he could still be working as a judger but for people clamoring for him to 'do the right thing' regarding not presiding over cases.
(His ex-wife was also the mayor of tralee at one point, and is a former solicitor who lectures in the college in Tralee). Class played a huge part in his case.
It plays a huge part all the time-the IRish presenters caught for drink driving, who go on TV all the time.
Some of them read the weather to us...to me, that would show a sad symptom of our drink culture-but there is far more evidence of that than 'rape culture'.

please helpThank YOU · 12-03-2017 2:20am

RabbleRouser2k wrote: »

We see class systems all the time-Tim Allen, the chef, as I mentioned. He got so much support from locals, it was disgusting.

OR the Judge Curtin case- where the warrant used to obtain child porn off of his computer was a day out of date. So he walked free from court, despite him being clearly guilty. Do you honestly think that if he was 'Joe Curtin, the plumber' that he'd have gotten away so easily? He only stepped down from his job by claiming health problems-he could still be working as a judger but for people clamoring for him to 'do the right thing' regarding not presiding over cases.
(His ex-wife was also the mayor of tralee at one point, and is a former solicitor who lectures in the college in Tralee). Class played a huge part in his case.
It plays a huge part all the time-the IRish presenters caught for drink driving, who go on TV all the time.
Some of them read the weather to us...to me, that would show a sad symptom of our drink culture-but there is far more evidence of that than 'rape culture'.

I was up in front of judge curtin he told he would sent me to jail for not paying a parking ticket in Kerry years ago and I got smart with him and he told 3 times he would jail me for contempt of court and the garda in the court came over and never to speak to judge in that manner and look what he was doing I bet the same garda from the court made a mistake in the summons thats old trick the garda use with there mates wink wink brown envelope

Widdershins · 12-03-2017 2:23am

please helpThank YOU wrote: »

I was up in front of judge curtin he told he would sent me to jail for not paying a parking ticket in Kerry years ago and I got smart with him and he told 3 times he would jail me for contempt of court and the garda in the court came over and never to speak to judge in that manner and look what he was doing I bet the same garda from the court made a mistake in the summons thats old trick the garda use with there mates wink wink brown envelope

The term cute hoors springs to mind

RabbleRouser2k · 12-03-2017 3:36am

please helpThank YOU wrote: »

I was up in front of judge curtin he told he would sent me to jail for not paying a parking ticket in Kerry years ago and I got smart with him and he told 3 times he would jail me for contempt of court and the garda in the court came over and never to speak to judge in that manner and look what he was doing I bet the same garda from the court made a mistake in the summons thats old trick the garda use with there mates wink wink brown envelope

That's interesting, and also a tragedy if it was true. The claim made at the time was that they could not get the summons to him, because he had been travelling, or away from his home-so they could not guarantee him seeing the warrant. Then when it ran out...
Things got real serious.

Grayson · 12-03-2017 4:10am

mzungu wrote: »

Do some people in the country engage in the above? Yes, they sure do. However, I don't think that could be used to describe society at large. Could we say Americans are pro-castration because the audience laughed at Sharon Osbourne's joke about some man having his bits chopped off by his wife? Also, Lorena Bobbitt is not exactly a hate figure either, so could we not say that kind of violence is accepted among the population? I don't think so anyways. We can pick and choose stuff like the above and draw conclusions from it, but that does not mean they are in any way accurate.

They are utter imbeciles, but I would imagine if he had beaten a man to death he would have got the same reception. They were there to support him no matter what the crime. As for the priest....well, that is a scumbag comment. But I don't think we can take the utterances of a parish priest as some kind of social critique. That might be the one and only time in the past 25 years that anybody in the country took notice of anything a priest has said. Mainly because they were disgusted by what he said.

Yep, you didn't say everyone was at it, but a subculture could mean anything one wants it to mean and it could be as large or small depending on who you wish to ask. This casts a net far and wide to the point of making things pretty meaningless. There is probably a subculture out there that claims Tony McCarroll* was the brains behind Oasis. It doesn't mean that wider society thinks so, or that other Oasis subculture groups might share the same view. A few outliers does not equate to society at large.

Aye, they were ripped apart by a society that abhors what they did. When has Irish society (other than those folks in Kerry) ever reacted with anything other than horror over a rape case? If that kind of thing in Kerry was happening consistently then there might be something to it. But it made headlines and everybody remembers it precisely because it was out of the norm.

I don't deny for a second that these people exist and that those attitudes do exist. All kinds of horrible attitudes exist in Irish society. Thankfully in a minority otherwise we would all be facing violence as part of everyday life. I just don't believe it equates to Ireland having a "rape culture" any more than we have a "murder culture" or "assault culture". What we have is the dregs of society acting like like dregs of society do, and always will do.

As regards sentencing, I think they are too lenient (same for most crimes) and much longer sentences for sexual offences would be a good starting point.

*They say the drumming on Definitely Maybe is crap, but I think it suits the sound of the album just fine. On balance, they were right to sack him all the same.

Once again. Saying Ireland has a rape culture is not the same as saying Irish culture is a rape culture. At no point am I throwing a saying that everyone is a rapist and/or fine with rape. I'm not even saying the majority are.

And posting that someone laughed at sharon osbourne is not the same thing. Did 10% of americans say that they support castrating men? Do 10% think that a man should have his bits chopped off because of what he's wearing?
10% of Irish people think that it's ok to have sex with a woman without her consent if she's dressed sexy. That's a sizeable amount.
Think of it the next time you're on a bus. Look around and think that 10% of those people think it's ok to rape a woman if they're wearing sexy clothes.

It's not everyone. At no point have I said it's everyone. I've gone to great pains to say it over and over again (Yet some still think I am).

please helpThank YOU · 12-03-2017 4:13am

RabbleRouser2k wrote: »

That's interesting, and also a tragedy if it was true. The claim made at the time was that they could not get the summons to him, because he had been travelling, or away from his home-so they could not guarantee him seeing the warrant. Then when it ran out...
Things got real serious.

you are spot on there where is the public inquiry into Judge Curtin and the garda?

he jailed a guy from tralee and when your man saw Judge Curtin your not the Judge now and he give a box into the face you Jailed me and look what your where doing he was a very unfair Judge he would Jail for put a sweet wrapper on the ground .

please helpThank YOU · 12-03-2017 4:29am

why are the Feminist groups not talking about this Judge Curtin in Kerry and the Garda in kerry and we want a public public inquiry ? because if the went the minster of justice Frances Fitzgerald Louise o Neill the rape culture expert should meet Frances and have cup of tea and tell her I want a public inquiry into Judge Curtin in kerry and the Garda in kerry and bring with you rape/networks go with the Feminist groups and see whats happens to them you know what happens whistle blower in Ireland.

Smegmaniac17 · 12-03-2017 4:34am

RabbleRouser2k wrote: »

We see class systems all the time-Tim Allen, the chef, as I mentioned. He got so much support from locals, it was disgusting.

OR the Judge Curtin case- where the warrant used to obtain child porn off of his computer was a day out of date. So he walked free from court, despite him being clearly guilty. Do you honestly think that if he was 'Joe Curtin, the plumber' that he'd have gotten away so easily? He only stepped down from his job by claiming health problems-he could still be working as a judger but for people clamoring for him to 'do the right thing' regarding not presiding over cases.
(His ex-wife was also the mayor of tralee at one point, and is a former solicitor who lectures in the college in Tralee). Class played a huge part in his case.
It plays a huge part all the time-the IRish presenters caught for drink driving, who go on TV all the time.
Some of them read the weather to us...to me, that would show a sad symptom of our drink culture-but there is far more evidence of that than 'rape culture'.

Was this post supposed to be addressed at me?

please helpThank YOU · 12-03-2017 5:06am

please helpThank YOU wrote: »

why are the Feminist groups not talking about this Judge Curtin in Kerry and the Garda in kerry and we want a public public inquiry ? because if the went the minster of justice Frances Fitzgerald Louise o Neill the rape culture expert should meet Frances and have cup of tea and tell her I want a public inquiry into Judge Curtin in kerry and the Garda in kerry and bring with you rape/networks go with the Feminist groups and see whats happens to them you know what happens whistle blower in Ireland.

but Louise o Neill is go around tell us. we are rapist and we are a from a rape culture. march up to Dublin demand a public inquiry into Judge Curtin in kerry and the Garda in kerry and watch and see what will happen by putting the spot light on minster Frances Fitgerald Louise o Nell never talked about this Judge Curtin

RabbleRouser2k · 12-03-2017 5:10am

Grayson wrote: »

Once again. Saying Ireland has a rape culture is not the same as saying Irish culture is a rape culture. At no point am I throwing a saying that everyone is a rapist and/or fine with rape. I'm not even saying the majority are.

And posting that someone laughed at sharon osbourne is not the same thing. Did 10% of americans say that they support castrating men? Do 10% think that a man should have his bits chopped off because of what he's wearing?
10% of Irish people think that it's ok to have sex with a woman without her consent if she's dressed sexy. That's a sizeable amount.
Think of it the next time you're on a bus. Look around and think that 10% of those people think it's ok to rape a woman if they're wearing sexy clothes.

It's not everyone. At no point have I said it's everyone. I've gone to great pains to say it over and over again (Yet some still think I am).

Your language is all over the place at times, sometimes not coherent enough or saying one thing, then changing your mind-quite a lot of it is incredibly insensitive. Even if many of us are not using our real names on here, there is no need to make ridiculous statements.

As for the '10 percent on the bus thing'-that's just paranoia. Really twisted paranoia-it's verging on the 'guilty without a trial' but in this case guilty without a crime. That poll, as mentioned, was skewed. One couldn't even guess what the questions on that poll were, since it may have been very badly worded, or in the case of one feminist writer, alleging one thing, when another thing was most likely.
Saying that 'ten percent of people on a bus are potential criminals' is far too similar to 'every man is a rapist'. Plus, that kind of thinking can lead to 'but maybe me, sitting on this bus, noticing the ten percent...is the ten percent!!! I need to lock myself away from people so I don't harm anyone'. Then if you try to deny it, you realise 'that's exactly what a ten percenter would say'.

And quotes can be taken out of context.

No, not everyone-but at times singling out an entire county for a start, and then an entire gender for another. Yet at other times, you don't get how blinkered you are, at times, with your statements.

Smegmaniac17 wrote: »

Was this post supposed to be addressed at me?

Yes, but supporting you.

RabbleRouser2k · 12-03-2017 5:17am

please helpThank YOU wrote: »

but Louise o Neill is go around tell us. we are rapist and we are a from a rape culture. march up to Dublin demand a public inquiry into Judge Curtin in kerry and the Garda in kerry and watch and see what will happen by putting the spot light on minster Frances Fitgerald Louise o Nell never talked about this Judge Curtin

Louise O'Neill wasn't in journalism at the time-but there was literally nothing they could do to Curtin. Zilch. Only thing they could potentially do is get him fired. That was it.

After that, yeah, he was in the clear.

LoN doesn't really care about helping-remember, she didn't even march for 'women'. (I hyphenate that because I know many women who did not agree with the march-a few youtubers have made comments of their own on this).

please helpThank YOU · 12-03-2017 5:20am

RabbleRouser2k wrote: »

Louise O'Neill wasn't in journalism at the time-but there was literally nothing they could do to Curtin. Zilch. Only thing they could potentially do is get him fired. That was it.

After that, yeah, he was in the clear.

LoN doesn't really care about helping-remember, she didn't even march for 'women'. (I hyphenate that because I know many women who did not agree with the march-a few youtubers have made comments of their own on this).

the Garda in kerry are still there.?

RabbleRouser2k · 12-03-2017 6:19am

please helpThank YOU wrote: »

the Garda in kerry are still there.?

Yes, they are, but Curtin's case went to court, and he was found not guilty. Unless new evidence was uncovered, he cannot go to trial for the same thing again.

ivytwine · 12-03-2017 9:11am

Grayson wrote: »

Once again. Saying Ireland has a rape culture is not the same as saying Irish culture is a rape culture. At no point am I throwing a saying that everyone is a rapist and/or fine with rape. I'm not even saying the majority are.

And posting that someone laughed at sharon osbourne is not the same thing. Did 10% of americans say that they support castrating men? Do 10% think that a man should have his bits chopped off because of what he's wearing?
10% of Irish people think that it's ok to have sex with a woman without her consent if she's dressed sexy. That's a sizeable amount.
Think of it the next time you're on a bus. Look around and think that 10% of those people think it's ok to rape a woman if they're wearing sexy clothes.

It's not everyone. At no point have I said it's everyone. I've gone to great pains to say it over and over again (Yet some still think I am).

Culture: "the ideas, customs, and social behaviour of a particular people or society.
"Afro-Caribbean culture""

So do you feel that Ireland has ideas, customs, and social behaviour supporting rape? If so could you give me cross-society examples of such. The Listowel case isn't one- it's so shocking precisely because it's an anomaly.

By definition it's the majority of people. Even a subculture needs the support of *all* its members. You wouldn't be a member of a goth subculture if you didn't wear the clothes, listen to the music etc.

Rapists are generally rather secretive about their crimes. They're separated from the general prison population for a reason. If Ireland really did have a rape culture, wouldn't they be boasting down the pub about it?

You keep saying you believe it's not the majority. Good, I agree with you. A culture needs numbers to exist. And the numbers aren't there.

You sound like a man who is disgusted by the existence of rape. So please listen to me when I say that I greatly dislike this term. And this term does NOTHING to help me and people like me. It's too black and white. It takes a nut and uses a sledgehammer to break it. It takes the blame from the individual and assigns it to wider society. Again the man who did what he did to me CHOSE to do so. Ireland's "rape culture" didn't make him do so. Do you think his friends would be impressed with his actions? I doubt it. Saying Ireland has a rape culture does... what, exactly? We'll wring our hands and say isn't it awful men don't police their friends' language and bla bla bla. Or we can say yeah services for victims are poor. Judges and barristers need to be coached to realise they're dealing with trauma victims. Rural services need to be improve. Instead of surveying people's attitudes to rape (because that achieves what exactly?) maybe we could survey victims in Ireland and ask them what could be improved.

Rape won't be eliminated. Sorry. Let's get that out there now. There will always be evil ****ers. But let's punish them, let's look at our sentencing and bail which allows serial attackers free to offend again- that's not just for this, but for all crime.

Finally I want to add- my ex policed my language. He never would have spoken crudely about an actress etc. (He seemed almost afraid to express desire). But he wasn't there for me when it counted. I'd rather someone who might crack a terrible joke on ocassion but would TRY to understand me and how this has affected me.

mzungu · 12-03-2017 12:07pm

Grayson wrote: »

Once again. Saying Ireland has a rape culture is not the same as saying Irish culture is a rape culture. At no point am I throwing a saying that everyone is a rapist and/or fine with rape. I'm not even saying the majority are.

Grayson wrote:

It's not everyone. At no point have I said it's everyone. I've gone to great pains to say it over and over again (Yet some still think I am).

Considering you were responding directly to my post can you please state where you think I did it? May I remind you I specifically stated in my post that I did not think that you were doing that. As you can see below....

mzungu wrote:

Yep, you didn't say everyone was at it

As you can see, that ground has already been covered. Anyways, moving on....

Grayson wrote:

And posting that someone laughed at sharon osbourne is not the same thing. Did 10% of americans say that they support castrating men? Do 10% think that a man should have his bits chopped off because of what he's wearing?
10% of Irish people think that it's ok to have sex with a woman without her consent if she's dressed sexy. That's a sizeable amount.
Think of it the next time you're on a bus. Look around and think that 10% of those people think it's ok to rape a woman if they're wearing sexy clothes.

You may have missed my earlier post in response to those figures, so I will repost it here again.

Is this the study you are referring to?

The results don't seem to make much sense.

For example, the results state that 21% said sex without consent is acceptable in certain situations and 11% said being drunk or on drugs justifies sex without consent.

But at the same time....

97% said violence against women was not acceptable.
99% said that sending unwanted texts/pictures of a sexual nature was wrong.
97% said making lewd remarks in public was wrong.
99% thought that making unwanted physical contact with a colleague was wrong.

How exactly do these two sets of figures add up? Violence against women, lewd remarks, unwanted pictures and contact is shown to be unacceptable by 97% and higher, but then 21% believe sex without consent is fine?

Something is not right with the above.

Also, we don't know how they defined consent (or even if they did define it) for the study. I think clues to the results may lie in the wording of the wording of the questions.

Here is the question from that study concerning consent that the figures were taken from:

QB10 Some people believe that having sexual intercourse without consent may be justified in certain situations. Do you think this applies to the following circumstances?

(SHOW SCREEN - READ OUT - MULTIPLE ANSWERS POSSIBLE)

Wearing revealing, provocative or sexy clothing
Being drunk or using drugs
Flirting beforehand
Not clearly saying no or physically fighting back
Being out walking alone at night,
Having several sexual partners
Voluntarily going home with someone, for example after a party or date
If the assailant does not realise what they were doing
If the assailant regrets his actions
None of these
Refusal (SPONTANEOUS)
Don't know

Take the wording of the question itself. It starts off with "Some people believe that having sexual intercourse without consent may be justified in certain situations." So, immediately it is guiding the respondent to think of other people rather than him or herself. Then asks "Do you think this applies to the following circumstances?"

That leaves a hell of a lot of room for misinterpretation.

ivytwine · 12-03-2017 12:21pm

Yeah if you asked me "some people think black people are inferior to white people. Do you agree that is the case?" I'd be genuinely confused as to whether I was supposed to agree that yes, some people do (and they're morons for the record) or yes, I personally think black people are inferior.

Sand · 12-03-2017 1:55pm

ivytwine wrote: »

Yeah if you asked me "some people think black people are inferior to white people. Do you agree that is the case?" I'd be genuinely confused as to whether I was supposed to agree that yes, some people do (and they're morons for the record) or yes, I personally think black people are inferior.

And its not accidentally misleading either. A lot of time would have been spent drafting and redrafting the it. The question is crafted to be misleading and lend itself to wilful and negative misinterpretation.

I think the people drafting this survey are either wilfully crafting the questions to get the answer they have already determined. Or are just seeking attention and funding. You don't get much media or professional reaction or money if your survey confirms what everyone already knew. It has to be shocking.

Wibbs · 12-03-2017 2:31pm

Sand wrote: »

I think the people drafting this survey are either wilfully crafting the questions to get the answer they have already determined. Or are just seeking attention and funding.

Or most likely both S. Outside the professionals who derive benefit from this kinda "statistic", the foot soldiers who buy into this stuff do so because it already confirms what they believe and the professionals have told them.

mzungu · 12-03-2017 2:49pm

ivytwine wrote: »

Yeah if you asked me "some people think black people are inferior to white people. Do you agree that is the case?" I'd be genuinely confused as to whether I was supposed to agree that yes, some people do (and they're morons for the record) or yes, I personally think black people are inferior.

Not only that, but when you delve further into the answers it gets even stranger. Here is the gender breakdown for that particular question:

Being drunk or using drugs
Male - 11 Female - 11

Voluntarily going home with someone, for example after a party or date
Male - 9 Female - 8

Wearing revealing, provocative or sexy clothing
Male - 7 Female - 11

Not clearly saying no or physically fighting back
Male 6 Female - 10

None of these
Male - 74 Female - 78

According to those stats for the question, it appears that more women than men seem to see no problem with rape in certain cases.

I think it is safe to say, a lot of the respondents misinterpreted the question (not their fault) and hence we have these bizarre results.

Just to remind, these were the results from the other questions:
97% said violence against women was not acceptable.
99% said that sending unwanted texts/pictures of a sexual nature was wrong.
97% said making lewd remarks in public was wrong.
99% thought that making unwanted physical contact with a colleague was wrong.

So, are we supposed to believe that the same women (and men) who (rightfully) find violence, lewd texts, remarks and unwanted physical to be completely wrong....those same people then turn around and say that rape is justified in certain circumstances? Sorry, I just don't buy it.

The ambiguous wording of that question has a lot to answer for.

Icemancometh · 12-03-2017 3:21pm

mzungu wrote: »

Not only that, but when you delve further into the answers it gets even stranger. Here is the gender breakdown for that particular question:

According to those stats for the question, it appears that more women than men seem to see no problem with rape in certain cases.

I think it is safe to say, a lot of the respondents misinterpreted the question (not their fault) and hence we have these bizarre results.

Just to remind, these were the results from the other questions:
97% said violence against women was not acceptable.
99% said that sending unwanted texts/pictures of a sexual nature was wrong.
97% said making lewd remarks in public was wrong.
99% thought that making unwanted physical contact with a colleague was wrong.

So, are we supposed to believe that the same women (and men) who (rightfully) find violence, lewd texts, remarks and unwanted physical to be completely wrong....those same people then turn around and say that rape is justified in certain circumstances? Sorry, I just don't buy it.

The ambiguous wording of that question has a lot to answer for.

There's a technique in political polling called push polling, where you phrase a question to get a certain answer. By starting off the questions with the opening line of "Some people believe," you may get a different response than if you had a more neutral question. I wonder would the question "Do you believe sexual intercourse without consent is justified in the following circumstances?" have produced the same results without the preamble saying other people think this is ok.

Outlaw Pete · 12-03-2017 3:33pm

See a female judge in UK who was accused of contributing to rape culture a few years back has again been accused of victim blaming by a Police Commissioner:

Police commissioner Vera Baird accuses Lindsey Kushner of blaming victims by warning them about risks of disinhibition.

A female judge who told women they were at greater risk of being raped if they got drunk has been accused of victim-blaming by a police commissioner.

During her sentencing of a rapist in Manchester, Lindsey Kushner said there was “absolutely no excuse” for sex attacks, but that men gravitated towards vulnerable women.

In her final case before retiring, the judge said women were entitled to “drink themselves into the ground”, but their disinhibited behaviour could put them in danger and they were less likely to be believed than a sober victim.

The Northumbria police and crime commissioner, Dame Vera Baird, said the comments were “victim-blaming” and would stop victims coming forward.

The former solicitor-general told the BBC Radio 4 Today programme: “When somebody is raped they feel guilt and shame and they find it very hard to report it.

“If a judge has just said to them ‘well, if you drank you are more likely to get raped, we are not likely to believe you and you have been disinhibited so you’ve rather brought it on yourself’ then that guilt is just going to get worse.”

Surely altering people to what increases their chances of any crime is primarily good advice. If the Gardai distribute leaflets telling people that there has been a spate of burglaries and cars broken into then I am not going to feel that advice telling me not to leave windows ajar or valuables on display inside my car is victim blaming. I mean, if I did leave a laptop on my passenger seat and it was stolen, they would still prosecute should they catch the guy (sexism) I'm sure. They're not going to say 'Well, tis your own fault and sure you could hardly expect him not to smash your window with that kind of temptation'. That would be victim blaming. Not the advice on what would increase my risk.

Widdershins · 12-03-2017 4:08pm

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

See a female judge in UK who was accused of contributing to rape culture a few years back has again been accused of victim blaming by a Police Commissioner:

Surely altering people to what increases their chances of any crime is primarily good advice. If the Gardai distribute leaflets telling people that there has been a spate of burglaries and cars broken into then I am not going to feel that advice telling me not to leave windows ajar or valuables on display inside my car is victim blaming. I mean, if I did leave a laptop on my passenger seat and it was stolen, they would still prosecute should they catch the guy (sexism) I'm sure. They're not going to say 'Well, tis your own fault and sure you could hardly expect him not to smash your window with that kind of temptation'. That would be victim blaming. Not the advice on what would increase my risk.

My friend was burgled and the garda who came out told him as he had no gate, a lock he never bothers to actually lock on the shed door, he was ''leaving himself wide open to theft''. They still investigated and found the getaway car. He was right, though. No sense in making it easier for a burlgar. Having said that it depends on how it's said, obviously it's not helpful to rub the nose of a distressed rape victim in it, although that's not what has happened in your link.

retro:electro · 12-03-2017 4:16pm

People are confusing and renouncing personal responsibility for victim blaming. Victim blaming would be saying "you deserved it, what else did you expect would happen", not "best not to leave your bag open waking through town, there are serious weirdos about who would take advantage of the fact that it's left open". I detest that people can't even be told to mind themselves now or it's assumed you're blaming them for whatever could potentially happen them.

Que some people "ya well I deserve to have the right to walk around town with my bag open if I so please! If some creep takes my money that is their fault! I won't be oppressed and told to close my bag for fear of being robbed in this male privilege society! Ugh!"
No. There will always be weirdos. And any man women or child could rob your money, so do what you can do to potentially prevent that and close your bag. That is not me victim blaming. That is me telling you to have some cop on for yourself.
People take measures to avoid being in ****ty situations all the time, that is not victim blaming, that is called being a responsible adult.

Outlaw Pete · 12-03-2017 4:32pm

Here's said Police Commissioner, Vera Baird (2nd from the left) on one of her day's off. Colour me surprised.

Ferrari3600 · 12-03-2017 5:00pm

RabbleRouser2k wrote: »

Yes, they are, but Curtin's case went to court, and he was found not guilty. Unless new evidence was uncovered, he cannot go to trial for the same thing again.

He was found not guilty on a technicality because the warrant was a day out of date! Not surprisingly this verdict or more specifically the reason it had to be given led to a cynical reaction by the general public and media.

hatrickpatrick · 12-03-2017 5:59pm

Regarding surveys:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0ZZJXw4MTA

Louise O Neill on rape culture.

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