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Louise O Neill on rape culture.
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Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,307 Mod ✭✭✭✭
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I believe Adichie's exact words were gender was more "sociology than biology". I think it is the opposite, that it is more "biology than sociology" but at the same time I do think social influences have a part to play in there too. I can totally understand gender roles, they are a social construct. But, this idea that biology is just a myth and it is all social influences? I can't hop on board that one. Thankfully, I doubt many people fully sign up to it either.I cannot understand how "gender is a social construct" is compatible with trans rights actually. In my view there's a fundamental conflict there. Maybe I'm a bit dense. Anyway while I'd agree that certain aspects of gender identity aren't fixed (pink used to be for boys for example) they are the most trivial aspects. Yeah, absolutely fair play to her. Promoting feminism in Ireland is an absolute cakewalk in comparison.
The social construction of gender theory is an example postmoderism's (and gender theorists) casual relationship with science, a relationship that borders on being completely anti-science when it is most convenient (e.g. funding). It ignores even the most obvious of differences. We see it a lot in nature in the animal kingdom and with apes especially, the males are all rough and tumble with the females being more nurturing. In studies, when monkeys are given toys the males will prefer trucks while the females will prefer dolls. Is this behaviour socially constructed too?
There are natural differences between the two sexes, it doesn't mean one is better than the other, it just simply means that we are hardwired differently. I find stuff like gender neutrality, especially forcing it upon children, to be a bit off. It is trying to stifle natural and non-threatening behaviour. In that sense, it is not a million miles away from those barbaric practices of trying to turn gay people straight. I mean, these same people would be up in arms at Mike Pence and his support of conversion therapy, whilst at the same time they are championing more or less the same thing. Both have their own brand of sinister social engineering, although only one of these is demonised. It should be both IMO.
As regards trans rights, I would agree. Add to that, if it is all a social construct, then is homosexuality a social construct too? If you look at Julie Bindel, she follows this line of thought and her view is that homosexuality is a choice. She started a movement to try get women to identify as gay, as she says it should be a political choice above all else. Sounds barmy, and flies in the face of gay rights campaigners, but this is where a lot of this stuff leads when it is taken seriously.
It is quite the pickle though, and it does take a lot of fancy dancing and science denial to try and successfully square that particular circle. Rightfully, I am sure many trans activist's do not subscribe to the "it's all a social construct" idea.
Yep, I think the problem is getting caught up in ideological purity, instead of actively trying to do something. Usually for movements to be successful and get some traction you need to bring along the rest population for the spin too. That's how stuff gets done.Like so many things intersectionality came from a good place. non white women etc were ignored by feminism by a long time. I would argue tho that nothing has been achieved by this. Practical action is almost non existent, and the infighting has everyone so stuck and afraid to put their head above the parapet. Gay marriage happened because LGBT people put their rights first and fought for them.
Well.....that's obviously all a social construct too! :PAnyway in light of the existential crisis facing the human race (climate change) I find all this stuff darkly amusing. It reminds me of nothing more than the characters in GOT slinging it out over the Iron Throne, pretending that the White Walkers aren't coming ever closer to the Wall.0 -
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And straight and white apparently too!! Bizarre stuff.
Aye and she always at pains to make sure she's never including gay men either.
In her rant article on pornography for example (which I can't find now - was in the Examiner I think) she said 'heterosexual' porn was misogynistic, making sure to not be including gay porn in her forthcoming rant. She then went on to say though that people should watch porn made by Erika Lust (and to 'thank her later') and has even tweeted the odd time recommending people view her stuff:
https://twitter.com/oneilllo/status/746425600357842944
Well I did watch some of her stuff (purely for research purposes you understand - hate the filth usually) and low and behold but what Erika makes has been made a thousand times before and far better too. (Watch some of it tell me different). I even also watched Erika's Tedx talk (included below...skip to the 6m mark) as maybe I had been watching it wrong or something (could happen) and was missing something that Louise was seeing as a result.. but no.. all I found was a nonsensical narcissistic rant from that was really just an attack on men.
At one point she says that the history of porn has been a discourse (fair enough) which ONLY MEN had participated in thus far and who have ALL been narrow minded chauvinists making misogynistic porn with "little sexual intelligence". Says it all really that she thinks (in 2014) that only men have had a hand in producing pornography for the last 40 to 50 years. The usual ranting on a topic she clearly knows nothing about. It's as if they decide that because they are feminists they can just become an expert on any topic they so choose whenever they like and they are from that point on the first women to have done so... cause patriarchy or something.
Guess I must have imagined watching all the Candida Royalle, Princess Donna, Nina Hartley, Belladonna (etc etc) produced and directed adult films. Course they don't make "sex positive" feminist porn and so guess they no doubt don't count as being a "female contribution" to the 'discourse' that pornography has been down the years. Funny how feminists get to decide which women's voices count and which one's don't.0 -
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Join Date:Posts: 13636
Outlaw Pete wrote: »Close
https://twitter.com/Ciarabelles/status/841545613539966976
I replied pointing out that there was also a poster saying similar to men (with regards to them 'not having a plan') and Louise chimed in:
https://twitter.com/oneilllo/status/841625743310356480
I'd be genuinely interested to find out how they can say it is not the same.
Imagine the HSE put out a series of anti smoking posters. If there was a male poster and a female poster, both saying that it's not healthy to smoke, would they argue that they are not the same and that the male poster is trying to help men live better lives while the female poster is trying to dictate to women what they can or can't do with their own bodies?
The irony of all this is that the campaign is from an organisation whose job it is to keep us all safe. Gardai see hundreds/thousands of drunk men and women on the streets of Dublin on a Friday or Saturday night.
Sometimes people are just drunk and making a mess or can't get home. Some times they have to bring people to the hospital, or to the barracks to make a statement. Sometimes they have to go to the morgue. If the Gardai see all this stuff and think "we really have to educate young people about the perils of drinking too much", a part of which is about the risk of being sexually assaulted while drunk, what is wrong with that?0 -
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Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,307 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Join Date:Posts: 6208
When you throw logic out the window all kinds of stuff is possible.johnnyskeleton wrote: »I'd be genuinely interested to find out how they can say it is not the same.
Imagine the HSE put out a series of anti smoking posters. If there was a male poster and a female poster, both saying that it's not healthy to smoke, would they argue that they are not the same and that the male poster is trying to help men live better lives while the female poster is trying to dictate to women what they can or can't do with their own bodies?
There was an opinion piece in yesterdays Irish Times critiquing that campaign and called it an example of "Gardasplaining".johnnyskeleton wrote: »The irony of all this is that the campaign is from an organisation whose job it is to keep us all safe. Gardai see hundreds/thousands of drunk men and women on the streets of Dublin on a Friday or Saturday night.
Sometimes people are just drunk and making a mess or can't get home. Some times they have to bring people to the hospital, or to the barracks to make a statement. Sometimes they have to go to the morgue. If the Gardai see all this stuff and think "we really have to educate young people about the perils of drinking too much", a part of which is about the risk of being sexually assaulted while drunk, what is wrong with that? They're not even trying anymore over at the IT these days are they?
On a more serious note, I think there is always going to be no pleasing a certain cohort in society. That goes for just about everything in all walks of life. However, I would wager that most rational minded people were able to understand the true message of the campaign, and hopefully they will heed it.0 -
When you throw logic out the window all kinds of stuff is possible.
There was an opinion piece in yesterdays Irish Times critiquing that campaign and called it an example of "Gardasplaining". They're not even trying anymore over at the IT these days are they?
On a more serious note, I think there is always going to be no pleasing a certain cohort in society. That goes for just about everything in all walks of life. However, I would wager that most rational minded people were able to understand the true message of the campaign, and hopefully they will heed it.
Oh they are getting crazy by the week-there are people on twitter campaigining against 'Manel's aka panels that consist of just men, and not a mix of women and men.
I forgot to note how LoN claimed 'one director's' pornography was feminist, yet her 'documentary' included scenes from another porno called All about Anna, a film written by, and directed by, Women. Yet LoN saw it as 'degrading'...
So loN is now deciding which voices get heard then?0 -
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silverharp wrote: »did she catch feminism after they married? the general advise would be dont marry or even date a feminist, its bound to be a car wreck.
It wouldnt be an abusive relationship at all. She just hates him
I think she hates everyone actually, including herself.
In years gone by she used to go on the odd rant and we all agreed with her to her face rather than argue. But she wasnt that bad at all. Just funny.
Roll on 10 years and she is a certifiable lunatic self professed feminist.
The more militant she got the uglier she got, or it might have been the other way round. The uglier she got the more feminist she became.
Even was in my house and saw my wife unloading the dishwasher and sneered at her and asked her why I wasnt doing it. The wife just said it was part of the deal when we got married, she would do the dishes and mind the kids and i would go out to work, so shes used to it - she was joking. Well that went down like a lead balloon. My wife told me she was glad there were two other friends in the house that day. They try and avoid her at all times now.
She cant even see that all her old female friends avoid her because she is a hardline feminist. She thinks its the men that are telling them to stay away. Now us ,en like women with a mind of their own, not a mind yer wan is telling them they should have.
Oh man, i have to stop posting here. I feel sick every time I even think of any woman long grey hair now. It is disgusting to look at and easily puts 20 years on a woman. And it shows a lack of pride in personal appearance too. Tidy yourself up for yourself or others, but tidy yourself up please.
sorry for the little rant. I'll get my coat.
Mod: banned.0 -
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Yeah, we've heard it call before... but the fact of the matter is that almost all the feminists of today in positions of power (be it just spokeswomen for the NWCI here in Ireland or feminists who manage to get themselves into Governmental positions) tend to be expressing the kind of nonsense opinions which Louise and her ilk are want to do.
Any young lads I have spoken to about the kind of crap which she expresses (regarding rape culture etc) tell me that her voice is far from a lone one, as you suggest, and that there are a lot of young women to today (unfortunately) buying into, and identifying with, her brand of victimhood feminism.
One bizarre zealot? If only. Truth is her voice, and those like hers, are resonating with a section of society. It's why she has been asked to speak at colleges in Ireland for example and editors in Irish newspapers are giving her a platform and indeed why old school feminists such as Camile Paglia have felt the need to speak out too of course. Were such feminists not appearing in such large numbers I doubt she would be bothering.
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Outlaw Pete wrote: »Yeah, we've heard it call before... but the fact of the matter is that almost all the feminists of today in positions of power (be it just spokeswomen for the NWCI here in Ireland or feminists who manage to get themselves into Governmental positions) tend to be expressing the kind of nonsense opinions which Louise and her ilk are want to do.
Any young lads I have spoken to about the kind of crap which she expresses (regarding rape culture etc) tell me that her voice is far from a lone one, as you suggest, and that there are a lot of young women to today (unfortunately) buying into, and identifying with, her brand of victimhood feminism.
One bizarre zealot? If only. Truth is her voice, and those like hers, are resonating with a section of society. It's why she has been asked to speak at colleges in Ireland for example and editors in Irish newspapers are giving her a platform and indeed why old school feminists such as Camile Paglia have felt the need to speak out too of course. Were such feminists not appearing in such large numbers I doubt she would be bothering.
I was referring to the poster with the person in his life that seems to be a horrible abusive woman with no positive traits. Someone I would choose not to engage with honestly.
I take your point but I think we're at risk of overstating LON etc and the NWCI's actual influence on society. What has changed really? The consent classes have been a flop. The 8th is still there- and that will change because moderate people and doctors, lawyers etc are putting the groundwork in to do so. The consent ruling was actually legally needed and does, I feel, out greater clarity for how a rape case should be prosecuted. As I have said countless times the practical aspects of what rape victims have to go through, legally, with supports etc are almost never addressed by these campaigners, so nothing has changed there certainly.
I think the risk is when you're politically engaged on a certain issue you assume everyone is. And they're not. There are people all over Ireland who just don't care about this stuff. I'm not saying the current discourse with its extremes on both sides hasn't done some damage to how men and women relate to each other, but that's always been a bit ****ed up anyway. I don't see large amounts of either outside Twitter, Tumblr, Reddit. Where it's easy to be amplified. Your average Joe and Josephine just don't engage. I guess I'm optimistic cos of humanity's apathy?
As for young women... yes that's definitely a factor. But most I think, are like myself, able to separate the wheat from the chaff, and the minority of those who can't are just immature IMO. When I was 18 I used to believe the most ridiculous things about gender and I was terribly cynical and black and white. I'm glad twitter wasn't around! Life happened and I grew up.
Also the reason LON etc are given their platform in the media is because newspapers are desperate for readers and clicks. They know these articles will get people talking, and reasonable positions just don't. It's unfortunately a complete mess media wise at the moment. I used to edit for a website and some of my favourite writers who were measured and reasonable (on all sorts of topics, not just politics) didn't draw engagement the way more controversial articles did. Even if they were often not as well written.0 -
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