MORE crap on the way.

meathstevie

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Remember tho,banks are there to make themselves&shareholders money... Ireland was a ripe market for the German banks.Lets face it the average German is the most frugal fecker going.Esp the older generation of post war years.They live to work,[us Irish work to live,or did back then].A big spend for Germans would be buying a car or washing machine,and well within affordable payments,avoiding bank loans if at all possible.So the market for money loaning to the natives was saited,we OTOH were a ripe target for loans and cheap money,and in fairness "we[and thats a qualified we] partied".Seriously,some of the excesse here was ridicilous.Even on boards here.Remember posts of lads paying over a grand for Glocks in Irish gun dealers??:eek:And being considerd cheap skates...So yeah,it was no surprise then that the German banks wanted their money back in 08,and it was less of a surprise to me that the Irish govt nationalised essentially private banking debt.Why?Simply because the politicans are in bed with the bankers,builders and barristers. If the Govt had said to the banks,"not our problem lads".The banks reply would have been"Remember that at the next local and general elections when you need a loan to run an election campaign!And BTW we are foreclosing on your loan for your other projects and mortages."
They all meet,drink,play golf and screw in the same social circles,so it was never going to happen that we would see Madoff style arrests of Anglo bankers being frogmarched into squad cars and driven off at top speed to the local nick.

The whole thing is rotten to the core here.You would literally need a Trump like figure here to break the wheel.Someone with lots of their own money,not moving in the Dublin power circle or of the D4 set,not beholden to any political set or caste,and who loves their country genuinely,not paying lip service to patriotism.IOW an Irish unicorn...:(

Remember how Sean Quinn fared out with practices that were probably not near as sharp as others who conveniently got evidence destroyed by a so called investigator in full view of a convenient cctv camera ?

Grizzly 45

9weeks for contempt of court?...:rolleyes:

Compared to Bernie Madoff in NY,for just about the same type of financial crimes as all our lot are guilty of in Ireland.Turning the entire country into one gigantic ponzi property scheme.:mad:

https://www.businessinsider.com/how-bernie-madoffs-ponzi-scheme-worked-2014-7?r=US&IR=T
David Drumm did more time than the whole shower in Ireland awaiting extradition in a US jail,and still gets only 6 years in the nick here.Sacrifical lamb springs to mind.

oldgit1897

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

9weeks for contempt of court?...:rolleyes:

Compared to Bernie Madoff in NY,for just about the same type of financial crimes as all our lot are guilty of in Ireland.Turning the entire country into one gigantic ponzi property scheme.:mad:

https://www.businessinsider.com/how-bernie-madoffs-ponzi-scheme-worked-2014-7?r=US&IR=T
David Drumm did more time than the whole shower in Ireland awaiting extradition in a US jail,and still gets only 6 years in the nick here.Sacrifical lamb springs to mind.

You got to admire the yanks when it comes to prison sentences, they don't mess about.

Cass

And it's why they lead the world in persons imprisoned per head of capita and total. Beating China, russia, Brazil, etc. by quite some margin.

The three strike rule is silly, long sentences for minor offences, varying sentences for the same drug offences (Thanks Bill Clinton for that), etc. It is in need of reform, but it's slow and usually when change occurs it's too late as technology and times have moved on so the new laws become defunct as soon as they are created.

oldgit1897

Cass wrote: »

And it's why they lead the world in persons imprisoned per head of capita and total. Beating China, russia, Brazil, etc. by quite some margin.

The three strike rule is silly, long sentences for minor offences, varying sentences for the same drug offences (Thanks Bill Clinton for that), etc. It is in need of reform, but it's slow and usually when change occurs it's too late as technology and times have moved on so the new laws become defunct as soon as they are created.

Yeah, but there are other reasons for that too, probably the way their economy is structured, very little social welfare, no healthcare etc. You have no arse in your trousers and someone offers you big money to be a mule or a dealer, what are you going to do ?

Grizzly 45

It is a mess alright,but also very big busisness. Whoever said "crime doesn't pay" didnt look too closely at their statement.It pays very well for ;building new jails,keeping police forces in money and prision warders employed,not to mention an entire judical system,security products,and of course ,the gun industry in the US.:) but in some cases like NYC "broken window" law it s the only way to keep some sort of law and order in a society like the US. I mean could you imagine how bad it would be over there if they had the cases like ours of people with 95 plus convictions walking out of court to go and comit more crime?

meathstevie

Cass wrote: »

And it's why they lead the world in persons imprisoned per head of capita and total. Beating China, russia, Brazil, etc. by quite some margin.

The three strike rule is silly, long sentences for minor offences, varying sentences for the same drug offences (Thanks Bill Clinton for that), etc. It is in need of reform, but it's slow and usually when change occurs it's too late as technology and times have moved on so the new laws become defunct as soon as they are created.

Cass, I'm not too sure but I read into that three strike rule a bit a few years ago and as I remember it it's applicable to what would be Circuit Court offences here. You're not going to end.up in a federal prison for life for not paying three speeding tickets.

Cass

oldgit1897 wrote: »

Yeah, but there are other reasons for that too, probably the way their economy is structured,

Nope.

You cannot (and i don't mean you personally, i mean the general you) keep blaming all ills on society. If people took responsibility for their actions and stop trying to blame it on other factors. I was broke so i robbed a bank, i wanted a car so i stole it, i liked his watch so i assaulted him to get it. If you want something get up, work, and earn it.

Did you know black single rates shot up after the repeal of Jim Crow laws (19% prior to 1965, and over 75% after) because of the welfare state and subsequent culture that followed. There was no need for Father to support the kids because the state did. Now please, PLEASE, do not take that as anything other than a statement of fact. I am not saying we should go back to that backward type of thinking, but under segregation laws blacks did not get the same benefits as whites so when the laws were ended they did.

very little social welfare

Obama, and this is not a political soapbox preaching session, created 8 years of rising welfare population and one of the highest rates of welfare dependency. I watched a documentary on it and one woman stood out as she had 6 kids and was receiving 1,200 per month for rent, free phone, 850 per month for food, and a host of other welfare benefits. When asked if she would return to work she said no, because she couldn't earn enough in any job she would get to afford what she has now for not working.

I appreciate she was most likely, as the program never said, on the higher end of the spectrum, but it shows the dependency on welfare and people's attitude.

, no healthcare etc.

The healthcare system is a mess however Obama care made that worse. Again not a chance to attack Barry, but even one of his former advisors said it was an unmitigated disaster. You paid more for the same healthcare you previously had, you DID NOT keep your Doctor even though Obama said you could, and if you didn't pay for it they fined you for not having healthcare and the fines could reach the same cost as the actual premiums.

A single tier health system doesn't work and is essentially forced labor, but the two tier system opens the doors for abuse and making billions. However in a capital society that is how it works.

You have no arse in your trousers and someone offers you big money to be a mule or a dealer, what are you going to do ?

Turn it down.

Not everyone from bad neighborhoods or broken/single families becomes a drug dealer or criminal. However start with basics. Look to the family unit (regardless of your thoughts about marraige as an institution).

• 63% of youth suicides are from fatherless homes
• 90% of all homeless and runaway children are from fatherless homes
• 85% of all children who show behavior disorders come from fatherless homes
• 80% of rapists with anger problems come from fatherless homes
• 71% of all high school dropouts come from fatherless homes
• Fatherless children are twice as likely to drop out of school.
• Children with Fathers who are involved are 40% less likely to repeat a grade in school.
• Children with Fathers who are involved are 70% less likely to drop out of school.
• Children with Fathers who are involved are more likely to get A’s in school.
• Children with Fathers who are involved are more likely to enjoy school and engage in extracurricular activities.
• 75% of all adolescent patients in chemical abuse centers come from fatherless homes.

I agree that it's easier to go that route and i also agree with you that education is key, and sorely lacking, but again there are less poor people in America than ever before, and if you read an article from the likes of Bjorn Lomborg it links GDP and poverty to climate change. So it helps people financially and physically.

Cass

meathstevie wrote: »

Cass, I'm not too sure but I read into that three strike rule a bit a few years ago and as I remember it it's applicable to what would be Circuit Court offences here. You're not going to end.up in a federal prison for life for not paying three speeding tickets.

Absolutely correct.

It's for violent or severe felonies. However the reason i say it's stupid is, a crime can be tried as a misdemeanor or felony so it's dealer choice. Secondly if the third crime carries a sentence of say 5 to 8 years it's irrelevant as the person gets an automatic 25 year to life sentence. Thirdly that additional 18-20 years is 18-20 years of prison guards, meals, and basically minding grown ass men/women at huge cost to the exchequer.

oldgit1897

Cass wrote: »

Nope.

You cannot (and i don't mean you personally, i mean the general you) keep blaming all ills on society. If people took responsibility for their actions and stop trying to blame it on other factors. I was broke so i robbed a bank, i wanted a car so i stole it, i liked his watch so i assaulted him to get it. If you want something get up, work, and earn it.

Did you know black single rates shot up after the repeal of Jim Crow laws (19% prior to 1965, and over 75% after) because of the welfare state and subsequent culture that followed. There was no need for Father to support the kids because the state did. Now please, PLEASE, do not take that as anything other than a statement of fact. I am not saying we should go back to that backward type of thinking, but under segregation laws blacks did not get the same benefits as whites so when the laws were ended they did.

Obama, and this is not a political soapbox preaching session, created 8 years of rising welfare population and one of the highest rates of welfare dependency. I watched a documentary on it and one woman stood out as she had 6 kids and was receiving 1,200 per month for rent, free phone, 850 per month for food, and a host of other welfare benefits. When asked if she would return to work she said no, because she couldn't earn enough in any job she would get to afford what she has now for not working.

I appreciate she was most likely, as the program never said, on the higher end of the spectrum, but it shows the dependency on welfare and people's attitude.


The healthcare system is a mess however Obama care made that worse. Again not a chance to attack Barry, but even one of his former advisors said it was an unmitigated disaster. You paid more for the same healthcare you previously had, you DID NOT keep your Doctor even though Obama said you could, and if you didn't pay for it they fined you for not having healthcare and the fines could reach the same cost as the actual premiums.

A single tier health system doesn't work and is essentially forced labor, but the two tier system opens the doors for abuse and making billions. However in a capital society that is how it works.


Turn it down.

Not everyone from bad neighborhoods or broken/single families becomes a drug dealer or criminal. However start with basics. Look to the family unit (regardless of your thoughts about marraige as an institution).

• 63% of youth suicides are from fatherless homes
• 90% of all homeless and runaway children are from fatherless homes
• 85% of all children who show behavior disorders come from fatherless homes
• 80% of rapists with anger problems come from fatherless homes
• 71% of all high school dropouts come from fatherless homes
• Fatherless children are twice as likely to drop out of school.
• Children with Fathers who are involved are 40% less likely to repeat a grade in school.
• Children with Fathers who are involved are 70% less likely to drop out of school.
• Children with Fathers who are involved are more likely to get A’s in school.
• Children with Fathers who are involved are more likely to enjoy school and engage in extracurricular activities.
• 75% of all adolescent patients in chemical abuse centers come from fatherless homes.

I agree that it's easier to go that route and i also agree with you that education is key, and sorely lacking, but again there are less poor people in America than ever before, and if you read an article from the likes of Bjorn Lomborg it links GDP and poverty to climate change. So it helps people financially and physically.

Yeah and exactly the same thing is happening here in Little old Ireland, and we're told its progressive. My niece tells me in her class virtually none of the girls has a father living with them at home, dads are for the weekend, you meet them in the shopping centre for the hours the judge says in court.

We were told that was progress years ago. Abortion is progress we are told, gay couples adopting children is progress we are told, wide open borders is progress we are told. Sadly i don't believe a word of any of it. Personally i think Ireland in 20 years, or whenever the next economic crash hits, is going to be a hell of a mess. We wanted to be like other countries like the UK and America, so we are, and we will have the same problems they do.

Cass

I'm not opposed to change. It'll happen whether you want it or not. I'd consider myself conservative in my views, attitudes and opinions which means i'm slow to adapt to change and reluctant to embrace certain new values but that also shouldn't be confused with backward thinking and "women belong in the kitchen" sh**e from decades ago.

However i do believe that progression should not be to the detriment of tradition and for us, on this forum, that means country/fieldsport traditions. Why must i be forced through intimidation, name calling or even legislation to accept other's values and lifestyle choices but mine come under attack from the very people that attack me for not embracing their choices? I don't protest them, their lifestyles, and as the saying goes why should i as i've no skin in the game.

So when they don't understand my sport, my lifestyle and it doesn't affect them why do they feel the need to stop me doing it?

By the way thats a genuine question for anyone out there that is anti hunting/shooting.

Grizzly 45

Plus ,it is easier to get a college degree and education if you are from an ethnic minority in the US than it is if you are white.With affirmative action policies and God alone hat ever else you have in social empowerment you have a better chance than ever before. But if you do as a black or hispanic,dont expect to be able to go bacj to your old "hood" and be greeted with open arms.You'l be branded an "Uncle Tom" or a "Wigga" by those who stayed losers and decided selling meth and their sisters was a better career option.I fact skip the college thing these days in the US,it's not worth 30 thousand debt for political indoctrination and a useless degree in ethnic gender studies or mediveal islamic human rights.Go to trade school and learn a trade,and actually make serious money within months of qualifying.The US just cant get enough trades people at the moment.

Even if your family was so poor they couldnt afford a pot to piss in,you can sign up ith the US armed forces and Uncle Sam will foot your college bill for five years service.I know two lads in my school who left after their Inter certs back in the 80s and signed up with the US Navy.They did their 20 years,and both have two master degrees each in mechanics and ship design,not to mind a decent pension keeping them here back home.

In short,although it has got harder and more stupid over there too,if you are willing to put the time and work in,you still can make it in America either educationwise or workwise.

Grizzly 45

Cass wrote: »

So when they don't understand my sport, my lifestyle and it doesn't affect them why do they feel the need to stop me doing it?

By the way thats a genuine question for anyone out there that is anti hunting/shooting.

The one I love is the hyprocrisy of their thinking.Reading some of their comments on pictures of hunters, especially of women hunters,written by other women...Maybe it is a good thing our gun laws are strict,as these lot seem to by either raving sadists or psychopaths in the utter clinical sense of the word.

They want to shoot hunters and their fammlies,with guns for being hunters...But want also to ban said guns to prevent psychos from shooting other fammlies in cold-blooded rages. Oxymoronic thinking much?:P:P:P

Maybe they realise their own mental instability,and that makes them too dangerous to own or use a gun.So they believe everyone out there is in the same mental unstable situation as they are?:rolleyes:

oldgit1897

Cass wrote: »

However i do believe that progression should not be to the detriment of tradition and for us, on this forum, that means country/fieldsport traditions. Why must i be forced through intimidation, name calling or even legislation to accept other's values and lifestyle choices but mine come under attack from the very people that attack me for not embracing their choices? I don't protest them, their lifestyles, and as the saying goes why should i as i've no skin in the game.

If the progression/change is indeed progression, the old saying about the path to hell being paved with good intentions. Change for changes sake is pointless.

You have seen the intimidation and threats suffered by Jewish people in the Labour party in the UK over the past year. The party that prides itself on fighting for the weak and oppressed, attacking a minority because they dare stand up for themselves. Its an attitude i do not understand.

As you say the anti-bloodsports brigade being against the taking of life, but happily threaten to rape and murder anyone who does.

oldgit1897

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Plus ,it is easier to get a college degree and education if you are from an ethnic minority in the US than it is if you are white.With affirmative action policies and God alone hat ever else you have in social empowerment you have a better chance than ever before. But if you do as a black or hispanic,dont expect to be able to go bacj to your old "hood" and be greeted with open arms.You'l be branded an "Uncle Tom" or a "Wigga" by those who stayed losers and decided selling meth and their sisters was a better career option.I fact skip the college thing these days in the US,it's not worth 30 thousand debt for political indoctrination and a useless degree in ethnic gender studies or mediveal islamic human rights.Go to trade school and learn a trade,and actually make serious money within months of qualifying.The US just cant get enough trades people at the moment.

Even if your family was so poor they couldnt afford a pot to piss in,you can sign up ith the US armed forces and Uncle Sam will foot your college bill for five years service.I know two lads in my school who left after their Inter certs back in the 80s and signed up with the US Navy.They did their 20 years,and both have two master degrees each in mechanics and ship design,not to mind a decent pension keeping them here back home.

In short,although it has got harder and more stupid over there too,if you are willing to put the time and work in,you still can make it in America either educationwise or workwise.

Oh its not the hispanics and that lot suffering discrimination anymore.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-manchester-48460555

As for the learn a trade rather than a degree, 100% agree. But in Ireland every mammy wants to boast that her little daring in doing a degree course, even though that degree might be as much use as boobs on a boar. A friend from school left ireland and went to the states to join the airforce, he said he would never come back here and i don't blame him. He said it would be like returning to mogadishu or somewhere equally unpleasant. I have to say i agree with him.

Cass

oldgit1897 wrote: »

As you say the anti-bloodsports brigade being against the taking of life, but happily threaten to rape and murder anyone who does.

the thing to remember is there is only a very, very small core groups of people that run these groups. They have excellent online presence and make 20 seem like 20,000.

The other side is the terrorist groups that use violence, and those that commit crimes in the name of animal rights. The majority do it for the thrill. Same thing happens when protests get out of hand and all of sudden looting starts. The looters are not real protesters merely scum using the chance to steal.

These bin lids do the same. They trespass, attack people, and cause criminal damage all in the name of animal rights when in fact its for the self gratification and the love of violence.

Grizzly 45

The Kiwi Gun Blog on FB.
This gun ban in NZ is bevcoming more and more of a shambles as the days go on.From some gun dealers threatning open militant action against the police and Govt to KPMG NZ saying that literally HALF of NZ's GDP for a year wont cover the compensation claims. Best the NZ shooters can do is drag this out until elections next year and see what happens then.


Kiwi Gun Blog
My name is John Herbert and I was one of the experts involved with KPMG led pricing scheme for the buyback. I am also part of the Firearms Community Advisory Forum that works with Police to advise on legislation etc.

There are some things you need to know.

The published document has errors and omissions. This occurred because of the following reasons.

1. Like the legislation it was rushed. All the pricing was done over one 5 hour period. 5 hours to get a possible 1 billion dollar buy back correct. KPMG made it clear this was our one shot at it.
2. The pricing was not checked post the meeting by the experts but was presented as written by KPMG staff who were constantly being corrected by the experts during the 5 hours we were doing the pricing. The KPMG staff had no firearms experience at all and did not understand the terminology or descriptions.
3. There were separate prices for E category firearms and A category firearms. This is not reflected in the document.
4. The experts all agreed that accessories specifically magazines should be purchased at full retail, KPMG agreed. 70% means that most people will get less than what the paid
5. The pricing for collectable Semi Autos like M1 Garand’s M1 Carbines and German WW2 rifles is incorrect. It was made clear to KPMG that these rifles are appreciating in value and that a 95 70 25% value rating does not reflect their actual value. Simply put a Garand is 70 years old now, how can new or near new be applied in this instance? The pricing given for these collectables was based on the documented sale prices of these rifles over the last two years. Any Garand in reasonable condition will be a $6k plus rifle.
6. The parts list has many omissions, again everything was rushed, but some items have just not been included. There is no parts list for many rifles L1A1, G3, M14 etc. Nothing for rifle stocks and barrels for many rifles.
7. The document has ambiguous descriptions and double entries; again if it was fact checked by the experts this could have been fixed. As an example there are multiple entries for SVT40 rifles as well as for M1 Garand’s. Bushmaster AR15 rifles don’t even have a price, (plenty of them in NZ).
8. Experts agreed with KPMG that individual valuations could take place and the fee should be fair, say $50. $120 is not fair.
9. There is nothing published that addresses pricing of Semi Auto bespoke accessories like AR15 only Scopes, slings, Bayonets magazine pouches etc. These items are all useless with the rifles and owners will want compensation at market value.

Again we have a rushed half arsed process that says to firearm owners we don’t care about you and we don’t care to understand what your assets are worth. When the Australians who were involved with their buyback came over in March April to advise they made it very clear to the Government and Police “You need to pay full price if you want compliance”. Clearly this has been ignored. Many in the firearms community and all involved in the pricing are appalled.


The published pricing has dramatically increased the chances of Noncompliance. Noncompliance is the worst case scenario and Police will attest to that. In NZ we expect things to be fair; when the Govt buys your house so they can put a road through they pay market value, why is this model not being applied to firearms owners who it must be said have done nothing wrong here. As a community we are being treated as second class citizens, our opinions are not being listened to and our assets are being taken at below market rates. We believe the low prices reflect the governments fear over the cost of the buyback, we believe they know full well this will cost over 1 billion dollars but will it make NZ a safer place? Not when the likelihood of a big Grey Gun market is rapidly becoming a reality

Cass

I'll be honest, i didn't read through all that because the one thing that gets me every time is the term "buy back".

It's not a buy back. It's a Government forced removal of firearms with compensation for the forced removal of people's private property.

If the Government wants land you own and they force you to sell it by changing the law so you have no choice, is it a "buy back" or seizure of goods with compensation?

oldgit1897

Cass wrote: »

I'll be honest, i didn't read through all that because the one thing that gets me every time is the term "buy back".

It's not a buy back. It's a Government forced removal of firearms with compensation for the forced removal of people's private property.

If the Government wants land you own and they force you to sell it by changing the law so you have no choice, is it a "buy back" or seizure of goods with compensation?

If someone takes something you don't want to part with, even though they gave you money, i'd class it as theft personally.

meathstevie

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

The Kiwi Gun Blog on FB.
This gun ban in NZ is bevcoming more and more of a shambles as the days go on.From some gun dealers threatning open militant action against the police and Govt to KPMG NZ saying that literally HALF of NZ's GDP for a year wont cover the compensation claims. Best the NZ shooters can do is drag this out until elections next year and see what happens then.


Kiwi Gun Blog
My name is John Herbert and I was one of the experts involved with KPMG led pricing scheme for the buyback. I am also part of the Firearms Community Advisory Forum that works with Police to advise on legislation etc.

There are some things you need to know.

The published document has errors and omissions. This occurred because of the following reasons.

1. Like the legislation it was rushed. All the pricing was done over one 5 hour period. 5 hours to get a possible 1 billion dollar buy back correct. KPMG made it clear this was our one shot at it.
2. The pricing was not checked post the meeting by the experts but was presented as written by KPMG staff who were constantly being corrected by the experts during the 5 hours we were doing the pricing. The KPMG staff had no firearms experience at all and did not understand the terminology or descriptions.
3. There were separate prices for E category firearms and A category firearms. This is not reflected in the document.
4. The experts all agreed that accessories specifically magazines should be purchased at full retail, KPMG agreed. 70% means that most people will get less than what the paid
5. The pricing for collectable Semi Autos like M1 Garand’s M1 Carbines and German WW2 rifles is incorrect. It was made clear to KPMG that these rifles are appreciating in value and that a 95 70 25% value rating does not reflect their actual value. Simply put a Garand is 70 years old now, how can new or near new be applied in this instance? The pricing given for these collectables was based on the documented sale prices of these rifles over the last two years. Any Garand in reasonable condition will be a $6k plus rifle.
6. The parts list has many omissions, again everything was rushed, but some items have just not been included. There is no parts list for many rifles L1A1, G3, M14 etc. Nothing for rifle stocks and barrels for many rifles.
7. The document has ambiguous descriptions and double entries; again if it was fact checked by the experts this could have been fixed. As an example there are multiple entries for SVT40 rifles as well as for M1 Garand’s. Bushmaster AR15 rifles don’t even have a price, (plenty of them in NZ).
8. Experts agreed with KPMG that individual valuations could take place and the fee should be fair, say $50. $120 is not fair.
9. There is nothing published that addresses pricing of Semi Auto bespoke accessories like AR15 only Scopes, slings, Bayonets magazine pouches etc. These items are all useless with the rifles and owners will want compensation at market value.

Again we have a rushed half arsed process that says to firearm owners we don’t care about you and we don’t care to understand what your assets are worth. When the Australians who were involved with their buyback came over in March April to advise they made it very clear to the Government and Police “You need to pay full price if you want compliance”. Clearly this has been ignored. Many in the firearms community and all involved in the pricing are appalled.


The published pricing has dramatically increased the chances of Noncompliance. Noncompliance is the worst case scenario and Police will attest to that. In NZ we expect things to be fair; when the Govt buys your house so they can put a road through they pay market value, why is this model not being applied to firearms owners who it must be said have done nothing wrong here. As a community we are being treated as second class citizens, our opinions are not being listened to and our assets are being taken at below market rates. We believe the low prices reflect the governments fear over the cost of the buyback, we believe they know full well this will cost over 1 billion dollars but will it make NZ a safer place? Not when the likelihood of a big Grey Gun market is rapidly becoming a reality

The mass murder in New Zealand was absolutely horrific but introduction of knee-jerk political initiative and legislation while emotions are still raw has never solved anything.

And when the motivation is political opportunism as happened here with handguns you can see for yourself that the results are even worse. Ten years later there's more organised crime related murders with illegal firearms than ever before in the history of the State.

tac foley

It happened not once, but TWICE here in UK.

The last time it destroyed around a hundred businesses, small and large, broke up homes, put innocent people into debt, and left a portion of the law-abiding population looking like child-murderers-in waiting.

Gun control is all about control.

Grizzly 45

Always been about people control,not gun control.

tac foley

Déanfaidh na fir a rinne a claimhteanna i gcéachtaí treabhadh do na fir nach ndearna.

BattleCorp

Cass wrote: »

I'll be honest, i didn't read through all that because the one thing that gets me every time is the term "buy back".

It's not a buy back. It's a Government forced removal of firearms with compensation for the forced removal of people's private property.

If the Government wants land you own and they force you to sell it by changing the law so you have no choice, is it a "buy back" or seizure of goods with compensation?

Doesn't really matter what it's called. The points are still valid. It's the mass rip-off of law abiding shooters in New Zealand.