MORE crap on the way.

gunny123

The eu really does not appear to be listening to anyone outside their little brussels bubble. Its sail on full speed ahead regardless.

Even brexit, the frightening rise of the far right in eastern europe, germany, france and the latest, italy does not seem to register.

Anyway, no matter what the eu want, our lot of saps here will rubber stamp it, be it banning firearms, what type of car you can buy, or anything else.

Gravelly

yubabill1 wrote: »

What I - and a few other EU citizens - want to know is who made Angela Merkel queen of Europe?

Despite the bluster in all the treaties I read - and voted against - I thought we were in a union of equals?

All EU countries are equal, it's just that some are more equal than others

muppetshow1451

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

So ten years after the Utoya shooting the Norewiean govt has set a dangerous precedent of banning semi-auto rifles.Owners will have 3 years to destroy or sell outside Norway.Of course, there might be the few elites who are now volubly protesting that they have an exemption due to IPSC, but it is frankly doubtful that will wash.As Norway is a Schengen and not a full EU member state they cannot claim compensation for confiscated property.

But y'know what??THEY DESERVE IT! They were WARNED numerous times this could happen to them 4years ago and that they should stand and fight with the EU gun organisations in Brussels.They basically said"Fuk you, Jack, we are all right we have the national reserve and IPSC get out clause!".Forgetting that their committee on the Utoya massacre hadn't finished and recommended a semi-auto rifle ban.[surprise,surprise,surprise]

So let this be a cautionary tale to us all.Distrust anything your local govt or the EUSSR central committee says on firearms because it is probably 100% the polar opposite of what they say, and simply we must hang together or we will assuredly hang separately." Is now too true in the EUSSR when it comes to firearm laws.We can't look in isolation anymore at Irish law affecting us.What happens in any place in the EU might affect us all.

Its not as bad as it sounds,its only firearms used by military thats been made semi auto.Somehow anything that looks like a assualt rifle is more dangerous than anything that looks like a hunting rifle,even though both are semi auto.
Hunters and sports shooter will still be allowed to apply and use semi autos as before.

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

EU and "Democracy"......Interesting concept...Seeing that we live in a constitutional republic, where the majority doesn't get a chance to stamp all over the minority.The EU is "democracy" Where the tyranny of the majority rules, guided by the unelected elite.

...he said, days after Tusk told the UK to get bent if they thought they could run brexit through without the Irish border being sorted out first. Something the UK desperately wants to know nothing about as it's both North and West of Watford.

Grizz, you keep ragging on the EU, but every damn time I look at a specific example, I keep seeing that they do it better than we do it here and we get a stonkingly good deal out of being in it. And the times where we don't, it's usually down to our MEPs arguing against our best interests for "Reasons", which isn't down to the EU, anymore than Finian McGrath's rants about firearms are an argument to abandon the Oireachtas and return to feudal times.

Grizzly 45

so you have no problems with your firearms legislation or any other legislation being sorted out in a Trilouge?.An unaccountable star chamber with no written records of events, utter ban on reporting and lots of table thumping at 3AM an ungentlemanly language from Sir Petr King demanding his colleague Vicky Ford accepts the UK gun legislation is BEST for the EU??

Because that's how the real EU business of lawmaking is made, and I don't know about you, but if that's all we need we might as well do away with ridiculously large and expensive bureaucracy and buildings in Brussels and Strasbourg...We could hire a grimy backroom in a pub in Brussels and all the various communist and socialist and egotists like Herr Drunkner can dress up in their old Commie worker garb or SA uniforms and run the Union from there, and like that.Because seriously,if they are doing backroom deals like the Dail , they are no better . You might think it is wonderful and utopian.I don't.

Grizzly 45

muppetshow1451 wrote: »

Its not as bad as it sounds,its only firearms used by military thats been made semi auto.Somehow anything that looks like a assualt rifle is more dangerous than anything that looks like a hunting rifle,even though both are semi auto.
Hunters and sports shooter will still be allowed to apply and use semi autos as before.

Errr NO! It's things like the Ruger mini 14!As that's what Brevick used.And any civvy and former military designs that have been converted to SA.The only way you might keep it is if you are registered and participating with an international score in IPSC.IOW the elite of the sport, and that is insidious in itself, as how can you participate in IPSC SA rifle to become an elite shooter, if you cant get the rifle?

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

so you have no problems with your firearms legislation or any other legislation being sorted out in a Trilouge?.An unaccountable star chamber with no written records of events, utter ban on reporting and lots of table thumping at 3AM an ungentlemanly language from Sir Petr King demanding his colleague Vicky Ford accepts the UK gun legislation is BEST for the EU??

You mean the same place that brought in EU-wide firearms legislation that is *less strict* than ours?
The place that said it had no problems with pistol or rifle or shotgun licencing?
The place that is *still* a hell of a lot more transparent than our government and police force on the topic of firearms licencing, despite the FCP's massive opening up of that area to us in the last few years?
Yes.

Mainly because I believe that "star chamber" nonsense as far as I can throw its original author, Boris Johnson.


Seriously Grizz. That's where this **** originated, Boris writing columns for the UK tabloids and he admits openly today that he was basically making it up as he went along for the newspaper version of clickbait.

You might think it is wonderful and utopian.I don't.

I don't; no government ever is. But frankly, if my choice is Donald Tusk or Mattie McGrath? I'll take Tusk all day long and twice on Sundays, please and thank you. Give me competent career professionals over opportunistic chancers any time, thankyouverymuch - I mean, just look at our sport for what the latter can lead to...

muppetshow1451

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Errr NO! It's things like the Ruger mini 14!As that's what Brevick used.And any civvy and former military designs that have been converted to SA.The only way you might keep it is if you are registered and participating with an international score in IPSC.IOW the elite of the sport, and that is insidious in itself, as how can you participate in IPSC SA rifle to become an elite shooter, if you cant get the rifle?

There is no changes in applications for sportshooters and semi auto rifles used in IPSC.,its only for hunting purposes.

Grizzly 45

Sparks wrote: »

Y

ou mean the same place that brought in EU-wide firearms legislation that is *less strict* than ours?

Errr No! Actually would have been on par with Irish/UK legislation EU wide which compared to places like Germany look tolerant and liberal.And anyway,as you have pointed out numerous times,its irrevelant as it is left to EU countries to decide their firearms legislation which cant be any less strict than the EU directives.

The place that said it had no problems with pistol or rifle or shotgun licencing?

Sorry,I must be in a parallel multiverse to the one you are in here.
Because the EU here in mine have done their utmost to make firearms legislation as difficult as possible. They were trying to make muzzleloading BP firearms CAT A [prohibited]weapons, which our own Francis Fitz signed off on. And we wont mention the ridiculous and zero effective "explosives directive" that hasn't prevented one terrorist bomb attack.But certainly has added 100% costs to us here in Ireland on shipping munitions to us here.Trying to ban stocked pistols as CAT A...??

The place that is *still* a hell of a lot more transparent than our government and police force on the topic of firearms licencing, despite the FCP's massive opening up of that area to us in the last few years?

You might ask a certain Mr Ming Flanagan about the transparency bit...He wasnt allowed and was arrested by Belgian police trying to attend a PESCO breifing,and finds it quite difficult as a MEP to find out about any such matters relating to Ireland...Trivial stuff really....But still.

Seriously Grizz. That's where this **** originated, Boris writing columns for the UK tabloids and he admits openly today that he was basically making it up as he went along for the newspaper version of clickbait.

Funny that Sparks..We have been reporting on that on this VERY thread two years ago when this dialogue was going on in the trilouge??So obviously I and FU made this whole thing up along with Vicky Ford and Dita Chernosvika??

I don't; no government ever is. But frankly, if my choice is Donald Tusk or Mattie McGrath? I'll take Tusk all day long and twice on Sundays, please and thank you. Give me competent career professionals over opportunistic chancers any time, thankyouverymuch - I mean, just look at our sport for what the latter can lead to...

Comparing a bunch of volunteers in a sport to professional Frankfurt school trained group thinking politicans that are unelected by anyone in the EU and are in charge ,more or less in Herr Junkners case when he is sober, is a bit of a wide comparison.
TBH at least we can say we can blame ourselves for electing gob****es to rule us in the Dail,but at least they are OUR gob****es that know no better and are hopelessly outclassed without a doubt once in Brussels in every aspect.But ,I'd rather them than some German or swede deciding whats good for their country,is good for every country it the EU.And we can see that in most of our day to day lives too.

Grizzly 45

muppetshow1451 wrote: »

There is no changes in applications for sportshooters and semi auto rifles used in IPSC.,its only for hunting purposes.

Give me awhile.I'll get you a better update from FU Norway.:)

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-norway-guns/norway-set-to-ban-semi-automatic-weapons-idUSKCN1GD5WL

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Errr No! Actually would have been on par with Irish/UK legislation EU wide which compared to places like Germany look tolerant and liberal.

Really? Because the 91/EEC/477 is a hell of a lot more liberal than any of those examples. All it effectively banned was fully automatic stuff. This at a time when we were still limited by policy to .220 calibres and no pistols.

And anyway,as you have pointed out numerous times,its irrevelant as it is left to EU countries to decide their firearms legislation which cant be any less strict than the EU directives.

That's not what I've pointed out many times, which is that the EU set *minimum* standards and allowed member states to go beyond that.
So... not the EUSSR then, because they didn't attempt to overstep member states sovereignty?

Sorry,I must be in a parallel multiverse to the one you are in here.
Because the EU here in mine have done their utmost to make firearms legislation as difficult as possible.

I think you are; in the universe I'm in, one party was trying to convince the EU to do the things you're talking about, and our MEPs were going along with it but we were perfectly free to lobby with a counter-argument. Which, in my universe, is what's been going on.

That's the nature of government in my universe Grizz - different groups in the population have different ideas about what the law should be and they make their arguments and try to change them if they feel strongly enough, while others will argue back if they feel strongly enough. It's constantly up for debate and in flux and changes as the population changes.

I think they have words for the other kind of government...

Comparing a bunch of volunteers in a sport to professional Frankfurt school trained group thinking politicans that are unelected by anyone in the EU and are in charge ,more or less in Herr Junkners case when he is sober, is a bit of a wide comparison.

You realise that the "unelected" bit is twaddle, right?
*We* might not elect the *German* MEPs and other EU reps, but that's because we're not German. The Germans don't get to elect our MEPs either.
I mean, unless you *want* an EU superstate where we dissolve all our borders and all vote in the same elections...

TBH at least we can say we can blame ourselves for electing gob****es to rule us in the Dail,but at least they are OUR gob****es

Nope, sorry, no. I don't give a tuppenny about being able to say "oh well" about failures like that, I want actual competent professionals in there. I've no interest in "Hey, we may have the McGraths and the Healy-Raes and the Mullens and the Varadkars and the ****e we see every single day while we sell the country and shaft the people, but at least they're *our* incompetent eejits". None. If Jim Deasy gets short restricted firearms banned because of them, it doesn't matter to us if Deasy is Irish, German or Martian - they're still banned.
This whole crap about "at least it's an Irish failure"? Nope. It's just a failure. Who would want to celebrate the nationality of a failure that they have to live with?

yubabill1

While we're talking about the EU and whether we have benefitted from membership, I have to say that there is a grain of truth in that but, being old enough to remember the Troubles and Ireland before the EEC, our economy only really took off after the 1994 ceasefire and the subsequent Good Friday Agreement, when our foreign direct investment strategy really began to pay off.

Before the mid-90's, we were seen internationally (like it or not) as a war zone and many (US) companies -but by no means, all- were reticent to invest here.

And here's the rub. Now the EU (especially France) want to tax multinationals on turnover in the countries where their products are used/sold, rather than on the profits they book here in Ireland. That, in conjunction with US tax reforms, are going to sink our FDI strategies and we will be left growing turnips and mixing cement.

With Brexit, we will lose a partner who has won many concessions from the EU that have also benefitted us and we will be left to swim in a union of "equals" while representing a little over 1% of the total population of the EU.

And, while I'm at it, a lot of Russian gas is shipped to Germany via pipeline and Angela is a bit too soft on Vladimir for my liking (T May was just on TV asking Russia how their nerve agent came to be used on ex-Col Scribal in Salisbury last week).

Sparks

yubabill1 wrote: »

While we're talking about the EU and whether we have benefitted from membership, I have to say that there is a grain of truth in that but, being old enough to remember the Troubles and Ireland before the EEC, our economy only really took off after the 1994 ceasefire and the subsequent Good Friday Agreement, when our foreign direct investment strategy really began to pay off.

Yes, but it had been improving since the late eighties: https://tradingeconomics.com/ireland/gdp

And pretty much every member state has that upward trend after joining up (just look at the UK's one), up until the entire global economy burned down after lehmann brothers. Having few trade barriers just really does good things to an economy.

And here's the rub. Now the EU (especially France) want to tax multinationals on turnover in the countries where their products are used/sold, rather than on the profits they book here in Ireland. That, in conjunction with US tax reforms, are going to sink our FDI strategies and we will be left growing turnips and mixing cement.

Well, that's been on the cards ever since we decided that "rules" were really more "aspriations". As in, for at least a decade.

With Brexit, we will lose a partner who has won many concessions from the EU that have also benefitted us and we will be left to swim in a union of "equals" while representing a little over 1% of the total population of the EU.

Y'know, I try not to be the stereotypical "feckin' brits" character, but it does just stretch me a little bit to want to be on the UK's side in the whole brexit thing. I mean, EU courts? The whole Human Rights thing? EU structural funding? The ability to trade with what will still be the largest economic bloc in the world after Brexit? Versus the DUP-run UK? Sign me and my kid up for the EU please, twice over. I lived through the 80s, I don't see any need for him to do the same thing (and looking at the latest UK economic projections, even their most ardent brexit proponents are now looking at having the arse ripped out of their economy for a decade).

And, while I'm at it, a lot of Russian gas is shipped to Germany via pipeline and Angela is a bit too soft on Vladimir for my liking (T May was just on TV asking Russia how their nerve agent came to be used on ex-Col Scribal in Salisbury last week).

Yeah, horse hockey. Here, read this. So far the Russians have assassinated at least fourteen people in the UK with the UK turning a blind eye every single time. And today's statement wasn't "they did it", it was "they probably did it" -- which means it's a PR junket, not a state accusation (that would be "they did it").
Means about as much as a fart in a hurricane.

gunny123

Sparks wrote: »

Y'know, I try not to be the stereotypical "feckin' brits" character, but it does just stretch me a little bit to want to be on the UK's side in the whole brexit thing. I mean, EU courts? The whole Human Rights thing? EU structural funding? The ability to trade with what will still be the largest economic bloc in the world after Brexit? Versus the DUP-run UK? Sign me and my kid up for the EU please, twice over. I lived through the 80s, I don't see any need for him to do the same thing (and looking at the latest UK economic projections, even their most ardent brexit proponents are now looking at having the arse ripped out of their economy for a decade).


Yeah, horse hockey. Here, read this. So far the Russians have assassinated at least fourteen people in the UK with the UK turning a blind eye every single time. And today's statement wasn't "they did it", it was "they probably did it" -- which means it's a PR junket, not a state accusation (that would be "they did it").
Means about as much as a fart in a hurricane.

So we struggle, wiggle, fight for 700 years to get free of the british, but sure hey hand power to the hauty french or boring belgians , so long as the economy is good its grand ?

As for the russians, the ones they are killing are their own, they can tip on as far as i am concerned. America, Britain, France, Israel etc etc have been at it for years, don't hear much about that.

Grizzly 45

Sparks wrote: »

Really? Because the 91/EEC/477 is a hell of a lot more liberal than any of those examples. All it effectively banned was fully automatic stuff. This at a time when we were still limited by policy to .220 calibres and no pistols.

That's not what I've pointed out many times, which is that the EU set *minimum* standards and allowed member states to go beyond that.
So... not the EUSSR then, because they didn't attempt to overstep member states sovereignty?

So how do we benefit from this having the strictest gun law in th EU?? All it does

I think you are; in the universe I'm in, one party was trying to convince the EU to do the things you're talking about, and our MEPs were going along with it but we were perfectly free to lobby with a counter-argument. Which, in my universe, is what's been going on.

That's the nature of government in my universe Grizz - different groups in the population have different ideas about what the law should be and they make their arguments and try to change them if they feel strongly enough, while others will argue back if they feel strongly enough. It's constantly up for debate and in flux and changes as the population changes.

Yes,in an open debate in the parliament of their countries or federations and not in closed sessions of groups with no minutes or recorded notes at 3AM with lots of yelling and table thumping. That's how it is supposed to happen Sparks,but for some reason, it doesnt happen much in Brussels.

https://euobserver.com/investigations/123555,https://www.politico.eu/article/where-european-democracy-goes-to-die-european-parliament/

But I suppose those articles are part of ol Boris 's Conspirrrech theory..Amazing he got them printed in EU web pages?

You realise that the "unelected" bit is twaddle, right?
*We* might not elect the *German* MEPs and other EU reps, but that's because we're not German. The Germans don't get to elect our MEPs either.
I mean, unless you *want* an EU superstate where we dissolve all our borders and all vote in the same elections...

You do realise that the German voters don't even get a choice on who their MEP's are? :PThey are all political party appointments. Nor do they get much of a say on any EU legislative affairs or directives that affect them? At least here we still do debate or have to call a referendum on any such matters of grave import to Ireland.Well,until we are yelled at by drunken Portuguese Euro-Communists like Barrauso to vote again or we will be dealt with.

I want actual competent professionals in there. I've no interest in "Hey, we may have the McGraths and the Healy-Raes and the Mullens and the Varadkars and the ****e we see every single day while we sell the country and shaft the people, but at least they're *our* incompetent eejits"

Then, Son, you will have to up sticks to Europe, get your kids into the school of nations in Brussels and the approved universities where the future leaders will be indoctrinated into the delights of the Ventotene declaration and the Frankfurt school of economics.That's if you want competent Kommisars...eR ...leaders..Funny none of our Irish politicos even know what the two previous items are either.:rolleyes:

and who are these people selling us out to?Not the USA or Russia that's for sure..But...Brussels.So which way do you want this?Ala carte EU membership?Blind lap doggery, to Germany and Brussels which is what we have been basically doing post our 60 billion pieces of silver in grants since the 1990s?It has been pretty much successive Irish govts policy to let the "big boys in Brussels make all the grown-up decisions for us" for generations and to treat the Dail as a glorified County council seat.. In that case, you cant complain if these gob****es hand the country lock, stock and barrel to the EU, and sign us up eventually to an EU army...[Why do we need an EU army in the first place?It goes against the founding principles of the EU...] as they know best in Brussels for us?Or are we supposed to be equal partners in this great social failing experiment of the EU Soviet? And fail it will, simply because there is too much historical, social and tribal baggage, and animosity between the EU nations.Especially with Germany.

In the meantime, well our current crop of idiots didn't fall out of the sky into the Dail and Senad...We, the people elected them, and if we keep electing gob****es, all we can expect is gob ****ery!So the logical solution is to quit electing gob****es! But if we cant see further than "he fixed da ROAD for us!" and whether the local school teacher, sports player or dynastic entitled inbred living of Granddads, Auxie killing record in the troubles is a good choice of leader...What can you do?We get the govt we deserve.

[

/i]. None. If Jim Deasy gets short restricted firearms banned because of them, it doesn't matter to us if Deasy is Irish, German or Martian - they're still banned.

Thankfully Mr Deasey and his cancer stick habit are nowhere near the EU at the moment,and if he wants to crack open the Govt cheque book....Which he will have to do under EUCHR articles?:rolleyes:

This whole crap about "at least it's an Irish failure"? Nope. It's just a failure. Who would want to celebrate the nationality of a failure that they have to live with?[

Ah come on now Sparks.we Irish LOVE our heroic failures!:D:D:D Our history is littered with them since Cu Chullain to 1916.

muppetshow1451

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Give me awhile.I'll get you a better update from FU Norway.:)

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-norway-guns/norway-set-to-ban-semi-automatic-weapons-idUSKCN1GD5WL

Here you have it,from Norway.

https://www.abcnyheter.no/nyheter/politikk/2018/03/05/195376644/stortinget-strammer-inn-vapenloven-senterpartiet-protesterer

Sparks

gunny123 wrote: »

So we struggle, wiggle, fight for 700 years to get free of the british, but sure hey hand power to the hauty french or boring belgians , so long as the economy is good its grand ?

To quote Michael Collins, "Give us the future… We've had enough of your past".
Or more simply, yes. I care a damn sight more about the life my kid will have than 700 years of history none of us were around for.

As for the russians, the ones they are killing are their own, they can tip on as far as i am concerned.

The city they dropped a weaponised nerve agent in had 40,000 people in it. 21 of whom are now hospitalised. I wouldn't lose a lot of sleep over it, but it's not nothing either. I just don't think this PR job has any real intent behind it.

America, Britain, France, Israel etc etc have been at it for years, don't hear much about that.

...except when someone breaks into Shannon to take a hatchet to the aircraft involved, in which case we get very loud about how silly they are and how much they need a wash...
I mean come on man, you can't have it both ways.

Grizzly 45

And I was just going to send you the same article!:pac:
Yes, it does seem you are right, that it will only affect the hunters.Courtesy of Mr Brevick using a mini 14 on his hunting license.

But,3 years is a long time in gun legislation, and I wouldn't be too surprised if IPSC takes a hit as well by 2021.

muppetshow1451

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

And I was just going to send you the same article!:pac:
Yes, it does seem you are right, that it will only affect the hunters.Courtesy of Mr Brevick using a mini 14 on his hunting license.

But,3 years is a long time in gun legislation, and I wouldn't be too surprised if IPSC takes a hit as well by 2021.

Thats what worries the sportsshooters in Norway,or the rest of the EU for that matter.
But for now they are happy atleast.

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

So how do we benefit from this having the strictest gun law in th EU?

We don't - primarily because we retained sovereignty in this area. Now if we'd given it up...

Yes,in an open debate in the parliament of their countries or federations and not in closed sessions of groups with no minutes or recorded notes at 3AM with lots of yelling and table thumping. That's how it is supposed to happen Sparks,but for some reason, it doesnt happen much in Brussels.

I'll grant you, that's not perfect; but I'm struggling to see the daylight between that and how we draft law here - because by the time it gets to the Dail, it's already drafted and we don't get to see it ahead of time (or at least we didn't until the FCP).

But I suppose those articles are part of ol Boris 's Conspirrrech theory..Amazing he got them printed in EU web pages?

Hey, what would I know, I'm a lefty commie pinko tree-hugging guardian-reading hippie
Try the Financial Times take on it, if you can stand their tie-dyed paper:
https://www.ft.com/content/6b31460a-d96b-11e5-a72f-1e7744c66818

You do realise that the German voters don't even get a choice on who their MEP's are? :PThey are all political party appointments.

So they have as much choice as we do for our Taoiseach you mean?
(As in, they elect the party that picks the appointment, same as we do for Taoiseach)

At least here we still do debate or have to call a referendum on any such matters of grave import to Ireland.Well,until we are yelled at by drunken Portuguese Euro-Communists like Barrauso to vote again or we will be dealt with.

He can yell as much as he wants, but the vote is still ours.
Now, we might be "persuaded" by the consequences of our vote, but that doesn't negate its existence. It just means we don't like one outcome compared to another.

Which is kindof what choices *are*.

Then, Son, you will have to up sticks to Europe, get your kids into the school of nations in Brussels and the approved universities where the future leaders will be indoctrinated into the delights of the Ventotene declaration and the Frankfurt school of economics.That's if you want competent Kommisars...eR ...leaders..Funny none of our Irish politicos even know what the two previous items are either.:rolleyes:

OR, I just vote for people I think are competent. While making sure my kid speaks German. Not every choice requires me to sell the car and buy krugerrands and shotgun shells

and who are these people selling us out to?Not the USA or Russia that's for sure.

To anyone who'll stump up the cash.
Also, funny you should mention Russia, given the SBP yesterday...
https://www.businesspost.ie/business/in-the-red-411403

60 billion pieces of silver

Ja, ja, ja. Because Grizz, as my father used to say about those beautiful thatched cottages on the west coast with the magnificent sea view that you see in all those tourist postcards, "The kids can't eat the view".

It has been pretty much successive Irish govts policy to let the "big boys in Brussels make all the grown-up decisions for us" for generations and to treat the Dail as a glorified County council seat.

Good. It's not up to being anything else, as it's proven time and again.

And fail it will, simply because there is too much historical, social and tribal baggage, and animosity between the EU nations.Especially with Germany.

For such a total disaster that's doomed to failure, it seems to be doing pretty well, what with being the biggest economy in the world, having the highest standards of living in the world, right up until the US wizards of wall street destroyed the economy on a global scale, and even then it's managed to recover pretty well (though we've royally stuffed ourselves thanks to the amateur hour golf course stuff our Dail came up with).

In the meantime, well our current crop of idiots didn't fall out of the sky into the Dail and Senad...We, the people elected them, and if we keep electing gob****es, all we can expect is gob ****ery!So the logical solution is to quit electing gob****es! But if we cant see further than "he fixed da ROAD for us!" and whether the local school teacher, sports player or dynastic entitled inbred living of Granddads, Auxie killing record in the troubles is a good choice of leader...What can you do?We get the govt we deserve.

Amen and preach it, brother.

Ah come on now Sparks.we Irish LOVE our heroic failures!:D:D:D Our history is littered with them since Cu Chullain to 1916.

Yeah... well, there's dog**** all over the pavement too, but that doesn't mean I take comfort from stepping in it...

Grizzly 45

Sparks wrote: »

To quote Michael Collins, "Give us the future… We've had enough of your past".
Or more simply, yes. I care a damn sight more about the life my kid will have than 700 years of history none of us were around for.

Oh! the IRONY of that statement from Collins.:rolleyes


.

..except when someone breaks into Shannon to take a hatchet to the aircraft involved, in which case we get very loud about how silly they are and how much they need a wash...
I mean come on man, you can't have it both ways

And the crickets were to be heard when the Russians flew in six Antanovs, containing refurbished HIND-D helicopter gunships,complete with the munitions and missiles back to Venezuela when ol Hugo was in power a few years ago.
They stated legally so on their import license applications and were within their rights under international law to do so.But you could be sure the same soap dodgers in the Dail like Barrett and Mr T Shirt and no VAT Wallace would be screaming the house down if the Americans transshipped the same amount of Apache gunships to Saudi.Cant have it both ways.;)

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Oh! the IRONY of that statement from Collins.:rolleyes:

You need to remember your Voltaire Grizzly

And the crickets were to be heard when the Russians flew in six Antanovs, containing refurbished HIND-D helicopter gunships,complete with the munitions and missiles back to Venezuela when ol Hugo was in power a few years ago.
They stated legally so on their import license applications and were within their rights under international law to do so.But you could be sure the same soap dodgers in the Dail like Barrett and Mr T Shirt and no VAT Wallace would be screaming the house down if the Americans transshipped the same amount of Apache gunships to Saudi.Cant have it both ways.;)

Absolutely, that's not even a question.

gunny123

Sparks wrote: »

So they have as much choice as we do for our Taoiseach you mean?
(As in, they elect the party that picks the appointment, same as we do for Taoiseach)

I did not and still do not agree with us being saddled with an appointed Taoiseach, as we just have been, no matter how good or bad they are. The current, virtue signalling, king of spin was not even wanted by the Fg party membership. So the same thing applies to the EU imho, no appointees.

Sparks

When did we *ever* get to vote on who'd be Taoiseach?
Sure, the party might have a leader who'd be the de facto nominee... but that doesn't mean that you're getting to vote for Taoiseach. You're just getting to vote for your local candidates.

Grizzly 45

]

Sparks wrote: »

We don't - primarily because we retained sovereignty in this area. Now if we'd given it up...

We would have had zero guns then as fru Malsstrome and sir King would have removed them anyway under EU legislation?

I'll grant you, that's not perfect; but I'm struggling to see the daylight between that and how we draft law here - because by the time it gets to the Dail, it's already drafted and we don't get to see it ahead of time (or at least we didn't until the FCP)

.

I'll refer back to your original comments RE the non-existence of trilouges,and the perceived fact that all EU legislation is conducted in the open in the EU parliament.

Hey, what would I know, I'm a lefty commie pinko tree-hugging guardian-reading hippie

If you say so...Isn't coming out of the closet on all things the hip thing to do these days??:):) Nothing to be ashamed of!

Try the Financial Times take on it, if you can stand their tie-dyed paper:
https://www.ft.com/content/6b31460a-d96b-11e5-a72f-1e7744c66818

Okayy,I'm kind of missing something here?5 articles that pretty much say the UN is an incompetent organisation? Nothing new there??

So they have as much choice as we do for our Taoiseach you mean?
(As in, they elect the party that picks the appointment, same as we do for Taoiseach)

No they still get to choose the Bundes kanzler[PM] and the Bundes president,and whatever yahoos in the parties of choice.But that's it.After that they have little or no says on legislation that we would be refereenduming about non stop.

He can yell as much as he wants, but the vote is still ours.
Now, we might be "persuaded" by the consequences of our vote, but that doesn't negate its existence. It just means we don't like one outcome compared to another.

Which is kindof what choices *are*.

Ah! Now ..persuasion, interesting concept as there are many types of persuasion in this world.It can range from the blackjack and knuckle duster type in a police cell or back alley at its most primitive on an individual level,to nations being persuaded to do things if their leaders would like a cushy number in Brussels to trouser more millions,to sanctions of money and loans ,to outright war.So "persuasion" is very relative to your situation.And to be persuaded to do something when your country and electorate has said the polar opposite on , twice on separate occasions, sounds more the knuckle duster type of persuasion to me. Which isnt rally a "choice" at all.

OR, I just vote for people I think are competent. While making sure my kid speaks German. Not every choice requires me to sell the car and buy krugerrands and shotgun shells

But you are not going to find that kind of competent person in Irish politics, simply because they are unicorns here. Look what we elect..School teachers, accountants, lawyers, ballplayers or entitled ones of political dynasties.NO EU politician would be even listening to a constituent bothering them about road mending or street lamp fixing.Simply because there is a competent council to go and fix it anyway.That's even IF you could get to meet your rep,once you have booked the appointment 4months in advance, filled out reams of paperwork and been security cleared and get five mins in an armed compound.Where here for all our faults,you can meet a minister in his clinic down in the pub, every other Thursday night.And with a bit of effort, you can get our Hobbit,er... President to drop down to have a chat in the local school.That is something utterly unheard of in Europe anymore,if ever.what I am saying is simply, both systems have faults and merits,but there is no one size fits all EU political system.

To anyone who'll stump up the cash.
Also, funny you should mention Russia, given the SBP yesterday...
https://www.businesspost.ie/business/in-the-red-411403
Linky no open.. subscription only.:(

Ja, ja, ja. Because Grizz, as my father used to say about those beautiful thatched cottages on the west coast with the magnificent sea view that you see in all those tourist postcards, "The kids can't eat the view".

You ol man would proably find that there is a French or German family living in the preserved and restored thatched cottage these days.While the kids are now wage slaves living in an overpriced shoe box,2 hours outside Dublin via car commute.Working a 50 hour week to keep the overpriced shoebox over and around them.The "good life" has its price to you know.

Good. It's not up to being anything else, as it's proven time and again.

As a son of "the Kingdom" I'm surprised that you cant see what those two "cute hoors" are about.:D:D It takes a very wise man to play a fool,and them two are the best idiot savant actors since Laurel&Hardy.:p

F

or such a total disaster that's doomed to failure, it seems to be doing pretty well, what with being the biggest economy in the world, having the highest standards of living in the world, right up until the US wizards of wall street destroyed the economy on a global scale, and even then it's managed to recover pretty well (though we've royally stuffed ourselves thanks to the amateur hour golf course stuff our Dail came up with).

Hmm,wouldn't have anything to do with small US West coast banks failing, causing a domino ripple, because they were overburdened with deadbeat mortgages, that they were obligated by CA state law, supported and endorsed by then, mere US senators B Obama and H Clinton to give to every drop out and peon that asked for one and had no hope of ever repaying.Which caused the big Wall st names to crash as well? But hey! Did you expect anything else from our lot , who have their hands in each other's pockets feeling each others balls? But a cYA exercise after they sold us a major line and bunkum sell?

Yeah doing well, Britan is leaving, Poland, Hungary, and the Czechs and Slovaks getting Bolshie about EU gun laws, and being told to take in fit and able predominately Muslim "refugees" whom they have had numerous beef with historically in the last Millenium.Italy going Euro-skeptic,France certainly will in the next election,Germany massive swings to right wing and Euro-skeptic with the most hated Bundes kanzler at home and all over the EU....If thats doing well and united Europe....

Amen and preach it, brother.

Yeah... well, there's dog**** all over the pavement too, but that doesn't mean I take comfort from stepping in it...

Then you got to look where you are going,or like Amsterdam,make it a selling point of your city,or more logically like Paris employ someone to clean it up with a massive industrial hoover.;)

yubabill1

Sparks wrote: »

Yes, but it had been improving since the late eighties: https://tradingeconomics.com/ireland/gdp

And pretty much every member state has that upward trend after joining up (just look at the UK's one), up until the entire global economy burned down after lehmann brothers. Having few trade barriers just really does good things to an economy.


Well, that's been on the cards ever since we decided that "rules" were really more "aspriations". As in, for at least a decade.


Y'know, I try not to be the stereotypical "feckin' brits" character, but it does just stretch me a little bit to want to be on the UK's side in the whole brexit thing. I mean, EU courts? The whole Human Rights thing? EU structural funding? The ability to trade with what will still be the largest economic bloc in the world after Brexit? Versus the DUP-run UK? Sign me and my kid up for the EU please, twice over. I lived through the 80s, I don't see any need for him to do the same thing (and looking at the latest UK economic projections, even their most ardent brexit proponents are now looking at having the arse ripped out of their economy for a decade).


Yeah, horse hockey. Here, read this. So far the Russians have assassinated at least fourteen people in the UK with the UK turning a blind eye every single time. And today's statement wasn't "they did it", it was "they probably did it" -- which means it's a PR junket, not a state accusation (that would be "they did it").
Means about as much as a fart in a hurricane.

Recently, every new member state benefits from EU funding, so it's natural that an upturn follows membership. Ireland benefitted similarly, but now we have moved to the contributory phase.

I did my leaving cert in 1985 and from a class of over 30, only 3 of us were in the town that Christmas. It was bleak.

I did an exam and got into the civil service within months of leaving school, sounds easy but there was immense competition. Then in 1987 huge spending cuts were made across the economy which made things really hard. I worked for several years, saved enough to go to college and when I emerged several years later in the early '90's, i was met with exactly the same dearth of jobs.

Just my experience of the pre-GFA economy.

As to the UK-Russia thing, there is really nothing the UK can do about the poisoning apart from sanctions.

Grizzly 45

yubabill1 wrote: »

Recently, every new member state benefits from EU funding, so it's natural that an upturn follows membership. Ireland benefitted similarly, but now we have moved to the contributory phase.

I did my leaving cert in 1985 and from a class of over 30, only 3 of us were in the town that Christmas. It was bleak.

I did an exam and got into the civil service within months of leaving school, sounds easy but there was immense competition. Then in 1987 huge spending cuts were made across the economy which made things really hard. I worked for several years, saved enough to go to college and when I emerged several years later in the early '90's, i was met with exactly the same dearth of jobs.

Just my experience of the pre-GFA economy.

As to the UK-Russia thing, there is really nothing the UK can do about the poisoning apart from sanctions.

Class of 84 myself.So I know where and what you are on about.What was the biggest pisser for me,was simply there WAS money about,but it was the elites ,and led by the biggest crook and con man Ireland has ever produced a certain Mr Charles J Haughey. We were being told to tighten our belts,while he was swanning around in helicopters,eating in the best,getting silk shirts made in Paris and keeping his bit on the side,Terry Keane in luxury. Yet the dumb people LOVED this nasty little crook...It seems to be a fault in our national chacter, how polite and nice the Gombeen man is we don't mind being done badly over by our own. This "He fixed DA ROAD" mentality,is why we have chacters like the Kerry chuckle brothers in the Dail and "gangsters in Gandons":(.

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

We would have had zero guns then as fru Malsstrome and sir King would have removed them anyway under EU legislation?

Except that that's completely counter to what they *did* do in 91/EEC/477.

If you say so...Isn't coming out of the closet on all things the hip thing to do these days??:):) Nothing to be ashamed of!

Bejaysus, I've been kindof out about being a leftie for a long time now Grizz

Okayy,I'm kind of missing something here?5 articles that pretty much say the UN is an incompetent organisation? Nothing new there??

You're getting stuck on the paywall; the link I gave was to the FT tearing Boris a new one for making up stuff that wasn't true about the EU (going into specifics) for the purposes of selling newspapers.

Ah! Now ..persuasion, interesting concept as there are many types of persuasion in this world.It can range from the blackjack and knuckle duster type in a police cell or back alley at its most primitive on an individual level,to nations being persuaded to do things if their leaders would like a cushy number in Brussels to trouser more millions,to sanctions of money and loans ,to outright war.So "persuasion" is very relative to your situation.And to be persuaded to do something when your country and electorate has said the polar opposite on , twice on separate occasions, sounds more the knuckle duster type of persuasion to me. Which isnt rally a "choice" at all.

Call me when the men in jackboots show up at your door at 4am to pursuade you with knuckledusters. In our lives, it's generally economic threats, if there are threats, at least in this context.

But you are not going to find that kind of competent person in Irish politics, simply because they are unicorns here.

It's more because anyone with any skillsets they can earn money with and the kind of mindset you want in the Dail don't want to be within an asses roar of the place because who the hell would want to work with the Healy-Raes?

NO EU politician would be even listening to a constituent bothering them about road mending or street lamp fixing.

Which is a bloody good thing. And our lot are basically conning us when they do so because they're not the ones who fix that stuff here either.

what I am saying is simply, both systems have faults and merits,but there is no one size fits all EU political system.

True, but I'd much rather the big professional machine even if it means I'm a fish in a larger pond, because at least the water will be better filtered...

Also, funny you should mention Russia, given the SBP yesterday...
https://www.businesspost.ie/business/in-the-red-411403
Linky no open.. subscription only.:(

Jaysus, what kind of long-haired hippie are you that you want free newspapers?
It was a story about a large amount of russian money showing up in the IFSC. Mostly at the stage right now where financial journos are hearing bad things they don't have enough on to print yet, but that's where we were with lehmann brothers as well for a while.

You ol man would proably find that there is a French or German family living in the preserved and restored thatched cottage these days.While the kids are now wage slaves living in an overpriced shoe box,2 hours outside Dublin via car commute.Working a 50 hour week to keep the overpriced shoebox over and around them.The "good life" has its price to you know.

The shoebox and the dublin life isn't down to the French and Germans so much as it's down to our lot thinking that a financial regulator should shut up and not rock the boat, while a property bubble was something that would never burst.

Again, give me the EU any day of the week; at least when they're stodgy and conservative, they don't pull fast ones that leave you in negative equity for the next thirty years if you're lucky.

As a son of "the Kingdom" I'm surprised that you cant see what those two "cute hoors" are about.

Everyone and their dog knows what they're about. But just because you know what they are, it doesn't alleviate the problem.

Hmm,wouldn't have anything to do with small US West coast banks failing, causing a domino ripple, because they were overburdened with deadbeat mortgages, that they were obligated by CA state law, supported and endorsed by then, mere US senators B Obama and H Clinton to give to every drop out and peon that asked for one and had no hope of ever repaying.Which caused the big Wall st names to crash as well?

More to do with the invention and deregulation (under Republican governments rather than Democratic ones) of the derivatives market, which let them invent half the world's supposed cash-in-circulation and then someone looking at it and realising it wasn't real.

Yeah doing well, Britan is leaving

And they'll still be the largest economic bloc around while Britain has managed to vote itself into economic destitution for some ungodly reason...

Poland, Hungary, and the Czechs and Slovaks getting Bolshie about EU gun laws, and being told to take in fit and able predominately Muslim "refugees" whom they have had numerous beef with historically in the last Millenium.

Poland's just gotten an almighty knock on the knuckles today from an Irish High Court over that - as in, their EU funding threatened, the ECHJ called in to examine their laws because of the right-wing nutters they've been electing, the whole nine yards.
That's the idea behind the EU - avoid a war to sort out that kind of nonsense by simply funnelling money into states that don't do things like officially blaming the Jews and Immigrants in general for all their woes.
Me, I think that's a grand idea. Beats the **** out of a world war any day of the week.

If thats doing well and united Europe....

You say that as if them failing would be a good thing.
You do remember the alternative, right?
Us stuck as buffer states between two superpowers in a cold war as we dodge being annihilated a dozen or so times from things as stupid as reflections off clouds or the wrong tape being loaded into a computer or an electrical glitch? Getting it in the neck with every trade war or actual skirmish that those two were getting into? Being constantly poor because of it to the point where a glass of orange juice was a fancy starter in a restaurant and the only herb most of us knew about was "mixed"? Most of your class and family being destined for the boat?

Dunno how many kids you have to worry about Grizzly, but I'd rather that my kid think of that stuff as weird stuff in a history book that makes as much sense to him as knocker-uppers do to us today. The EU's the best shot we have at that. Hell, last I looked, it was the _only_ shot, nobody else is really even trying.

Sparks

yubabill1 wrote: »

Recently, every new member state benefits from EU funding, so it's natural that an upturn follows membership.

Except that that's the initial spike. Doesn't explain how member states who didn't get as big an initial investment also got a massive boost in their economies well past that initial phase:

As to the UK-Russia thing, there is really nothing the UK can do about the poisoning apart from sanctions.

So that specific nerve agent? Was supposed to have been destroyed under international treaty. So if you want to see the people who are serious about doing something about it, look to see who calls for an inspection under Article 9 of the Chemical Weapons Convention (because Russia declared those lines destroyed last year under that convention).

Until May does that, she's not serious about this, she's mugging it up for the cameras so they'll stop asking awkward questions about the DUP/Tory deal and its impact on the Northern Ireland government, direct rule, the GFA and Brexit.

yubabill1

Sparks wrote: »

Except that that's the initial spike. Doesn't explain how member states who didn't get as big an initial investment also got a massive boost in their economies well past that initial phase:

You did mention the Lehman's blip earlier, so I'll just slot that back in to the above.

If you're saying indirectly that Irish GDP is flourishing also, I will agree with you but it's starting to feel like another bubble from where I'm sitting.

We have never fully capitalised on the FDI we have attracted - what I mean is that the UK, with its industrial revolution legacy, has a vast array of people turning out stuff in small industrial estates. We do not have the same depth of mom & pop industry and we are looking at tumbleweed if, say, Intel pull out of Kildare. Now you might argue that we have x,y and z tech companies doing this and that, but they would be very unlikely to replace the jobs lost if Intel flew the coop. In the UK, on the other hand, there's always some guy in a shed capable of turning-out a whizz-bang to save the economy: Dyson, Bayliss, Whittle and the like.

We Irish have a bad habit of putting all our eggs in one basket - potatoes, the Aud, emigration, bricks and mortar and now probably FDI.

It's never the end of the world, but it won't be as pleasant as it feels right now when the SHTF.