The Peds Peddler - 400m & The Mile

IvoryTower

OOnegative wrote: »

Best of luck Saturday man, run well!!

Thanks! Cant wait!

IvoryTower

Jingle Bells 5k


Ran 9 miles this week so felt pretty tapered so no excuses here. I arrived early so decided to walk the course backwards to see how its changed from previous years. The thought that came to mind was, its a rollercoaster. With that in mind the plan was to hover around 6.15 pace then just enjoy the downhills and recover on the uphills, hopefully have enough in the tank make the most fo the last 1km which is all downhill.

Mile 1 - Felt good, knew i was around the correct pace, tried to get behind people at any opportunity 6.17

Mile 2 - Came into a headwind somewhere along here, made the decision to surge to get behind a group and instantly regretted it, was hurting after it and the hills were just starting. At some point going up a hill the red light came on the engine and that was it, just suffer now 6.21

Mile 3 - At this point just trying to let the downhills do most of the work and talk myself into not quitting on the uphills. When I reached the top of the last hill and there's 1k of downhill until the end, i was too fkd to use it, i let myself recover for about 300m and then tried to push to the end 6.18

Last section - little push to get over the line but wasn't much there tbh 5.43

Finish time 19.26


Honestly, just like the mile on Tues this was sort of my B result, but very happy with both.




What now


No more tapering for races anyway, just consistent training until March with races replacing sessions. I like the idea of mixing up the race distances, i think i ran nearly all 800s last year. Baby due in a couple of weeks so who knows how it's going to go. I don't expect it to mess me up too much...i think. I may be forgetting how tiring it is, it has been 6 years since Jonah was born

IvoryTower

GOALS FOR 2020

400m - 54s In the words of Scullion, if you dont use a skill ,you dont have it. 400 is without a doubt my most natural distance. I'd like to keep that skill alive.

800m indoor - 2.06 . I got 2.08 last year, I'd be satisfied with a pb but 2.06 the A result

800m outdoor - 2.03 . This is ambitious, again a pb would be decent(2.05). My fave distance so will be looking to race this when I peak

1500 - race my first one

Mile - sub 5

5k - 18.30 okay this is a bit ridiculous but It kills me that I'm so bad over 5k. I want to see a big jump here. 18.xx would suffice but would prefer to be further on than that by end 2020. Banking on my miles doing the work here.

Sacksian

We'll probably be in and around each other for 800s at indoor - and you should be sub-5 by the end of the indoor season, if not the end of this year.

Going off a 4:48 mile, it's my speed I need to improve to make any progress at 800, so will be following you closely! I know the missing element is gym/strength work but wouldn't know where to start - what's an evening of gym work for you?

But I can't believe how bad you are at 5k either!

Oregano_State

Sacksian wrote: »

We'll probably be in and around each other for 800s at indoor - and you should be sub-5 by the end of the indoor season, if not the end of this year.

Going off a 4:48 mile, it's my speed I need to improve to make any progress at 800, so will be following you closely! I know the missing element is gym/strength work but wouldn't know where to start - what's an evening of gym work for you?

But I can't believe how bad you are at 5k either!

Gym work would help certainly, but if you're not used to it it can take a lot of time to learn the movements and will likely involve a lot of DOMS. Trying to do this while also in the middle of running training is a recipe for injury IMO unless managed very carefully. An entry point could be to join a local commercial gym and start going to a circuits class once a week. Most gyms have these type of classes. That will help develop your core/glutes and after 6-12 weeks of this you could start looking at starting a free-weights program.

I would really recommend hill sprints as a way of developing power in the legs with direct transfer to flat speed. Running fast is a skill, and the best way to develop it, like most skills is to spend more time doing it. Gym work and weights can help but in a more indirect way that spending time sprinting.

IvoryTower

I don't go to the gym anymore due to time, it was either that or miles. I alternate 2 different strength sessions at home in the play room. Just basic stuff, day 1 squats, single leg rdl, heel drops, glute bridge, some hip work(the weight is so light its more for injury prevention than strength). Day 2 is plyos like jumping lunges, box jumps, horizontal jumps, also more hip stuff(cause im at a desk all day). I think it helps but tbh I ran 54 for 400 before stepping foot in a gym so the speed was always there. Apart from hill sprints we do no speed in training until closer to when we need to peak. This sucks for 400 running but works well for the middle distance stuff. All the training i do is exactly what Kieran does(except for my random yolo races), he also never goes to the gym but he's naturally strong, grew up on a farm! Kieran would also be more 400/800, naturally fast.

So yeah I guess like OS said hill sprints, a gym with personal trainer if you have the time.

Sacksian

That's actually very heartening to hear, OS! I’ve always avoided the gym for the reason you suggest - if you can’t do a movement properly without weight, adding weight to the equation doesn’t seem sensible. I did pick up a book on bodyweight strength training which is very good but just haven’t stuck with it. I might see if I can incorporate some of IT's routines.

I like doing either 30s or 60s hills off 2 or 3mins. I don’t do them a lot but, based on both your posts, this might be what I’m looking for in terms of speed/power.

Btw, I’m not a total slouch! I ran 55.6 in the only time I’ve run 400m and that was after an 800m 90 minutes earlier, but I don’t have much power/raw speed - I’d say my 200m and 400m pace wouldn’t be far off each other.

So, next questions on hills: once a week or once every two weeks? Length of hill, recovery and how many intervals/sets?

IvoryTower

We do 3 sets of 4, jog back recovery with 3min jog between sets. The hill is about 160m. They do it every Saturday but I'd say I've made it every second week due to races.

OS what do you do? He trained for 400 I believe so might be sharper

IvoryTower

Overpronator has signed up for his first mile on the 17th :cool:

dna_leri

@IvoryTower - those are great targets to set and probably achievable but very hard to work on both the 400m and 5K at the same time, some will say impossible. At very least you would have to periodise them i.e. focus on 1 at a time.

@Sacksian - I agree with the advice given by the lads - hills and body weight or circuits as an introduction to weights. I think you could benefit a lot from a good strength program, especially in injury prevention.

For me, I am considering a return to 800m (based on a compliment from Sacksian a while ago) but I will see how my speed develops and the old body responds to the faster work. I would favour shorter hills (10-20s). At the moment, I am doing 6-12x short hills (15s) once a week after a tempo, at 800-1500m effort and doing 6-12x strides (15s) twice a week at 800-1500m pace after long run and session, based on Tinman advice. So far so good.


PS - can we just call this the Middle Distance Thread - seems to be the go-to thread now.

IvoryTower

Hi Dna_leri, All of the targets are set with the idea that i'll be training for the 800. My best 400 will likely come close to when i'm supposed to peak for 800 and my best 5k is always at the end of base/xc training(Jingle Bells).

I like the idea of the shorter hills after a session, it's hard giving up my Saturday just for hills. I don't mind running hills but find it boring as a session on its own.

Chivito550

Sacksian wrote: »

We'll probably be in and around each other for 800s at indoor - and you should be sub-5 by the end of the indoor season, if not the end of this year.

Going off a 4:48 mile, it's my speed I need to improve to make any progress at 800, so will be following you closely! I know the missing element is gym/strength work but wouldn't know where to start - what's an evening of gym work for you?

But I can't believe how bad you are at 5k either!

Don't want to hijack the thread but gym work (obviously built into gradually) could go a long way towards helping with your persistent injury problems. Since I started doing gym work back in 2012 I've never had a sprinting related injury. My only injury (groin tear) was from long jump and being completely inexperienced in training for it.

You've nothing to lose by trying it anyway.

Sacksian

dna_leri wrote: »

@IvoryTower - those are great targets to set and probably achievable but very hard to work on both the 400m and 5K at the same time, some will say impossible. At very least you would have to periodise them i.e. focus on 1 at a time.

@Sacksian - I agree with the advice given by the lads - hills and body weight or circuits as an introduction to weights. I think you could benefit a lot from a good strength program, especially in injury prevention.

For me, I am considering a return to 800m (based on a compliment from Sacksian a while ago) but I will see how my speed develops and the old body responds to the faster work. I would favour shorter hills (10-20s). At the moment, I am doing 6-12x short hills (15s) once a week after a tempo, at 800-1500m effort and doing 6-12x strides (15s) twice a week at 800-1500m pace after long run and session, based on Tinman advice. So far so good.


PS - can we just call this the Middle Distance Thread - seems to be the go-to thread now.

Hills it is so! And great to hear about the 800m comeback - it's too good a distance to abandon. I did hill sprints at the end of easy runs towards the end of this year and earlier this year (maybe twice a week) and they meant I could still run quickly enough over longer distances without specific work. However, I found they weren't enough to bridge the gap to 800m pace.

For me anything faster than 1500m-5k needs specific attention. At the moment, I'm thinking of moving to three sessions a week, from two, for the next few month which would be:
200m hills or some variation of 20x200m on a Tuesday
mp/mhr tempo (handy enough) on a Thursday
Usual xc club fartlek on a Saturday
Club long run on a Sunday (10 miles).

And I'll start logging in my own thread once the novice (or new year) is out of the way!

Sacksian

Chivito550 wrote: »

Don't want to hijack the thread but gym work (obviously built into gradually) could go a long way towards helping with your persistent injury problems. Since I started doing gym work back in 2012 I've never had a sprinting related injury. My only injury (groin tear) was from long jump and being completely inexperienced in training for it.

You've nothing to lose by trying it anyway.

I would be very wary of getting injured going down the gym route - I'm trying to find a means of injury prevention that suits what I'm doing at the moment! As it happens, I've a bit more of a handle on the injury front - managed to go through 18 entirely without a niggle. But it seems to be all down to one thing - inactivity. The achilles niggle happens without any running at all. Instead, it's after a day when I'm working from home over a laptop without moving (and generally if I'm under pressure and shoulders/back gets tight).

I used to think I was getting hamstring strains all the time after fast running but if I pay attention to my back, stretching it and watching how I'm sitting, I don't get anything. If I don't pay attention, the niggles return. So, laziness is my biggest injury risk!

IT - you can have your thread back now!

Mulberry

Just one more thing, be wary of doing hill sprints.

I incorporated hill sprints weekly to my routine from Oct 2018 and was injured by December 2018. Hamstring tendonitis.
And yes, the hill sprints definitely caused the injury.

By February it was still there and I limped over the line in the 60M indoors. I haven't raced or trained since. Supreme and consistent efforts from my physio all year mean I may be back to speed training in the new year with a view to a return to form for the 100M and 200M for the outdoors.

But in the meantime, all hill sprints ever gave me were a lost set of national sprint titles in my category in 2019 and missing out on the Europeans in Venice last September and in Portugal this coming March.

I believe they're a super addition to a sprinter's routine, but be very, very careful! Don't end up like Mulberry!

IvoryTower

What sort of session were you doing? I guess everyone is different, they've been part of my running since day 1 4-5 years ago. If anything I feel like they prevent me from getting injured

Dubh Geannain

IvoryTower wrote: »

What sort of session were you doing? I guess everyone is different, they've been part of my running since day 1 4-5 years ago. If anything I feel like they prevent me from getting injured

I've only been doing hills this year but they're short of being sprints I suppose.

Earlier in the year I was doing 30m hill sprints with no problems at all. When it became apparent that strength and endurance were more of an issue for me than speed I've been doing a hill that's around 180 m long at probably about 80% effort (sometimes near 100% on the last one). For me I've found my calves and sometimes hamstrings tightening a little afterwards on the run home (which is unfortunately uphill from where I finish so probably doesn't help). But no long term issues or injuries yet.

Maybe I've not been doing the drill continually for long enough to comment but that's what I've found.

IvoryTower

Mon - 4.3m easy
Tues - 6 x 10m @6.22 Great session, new ground for me on the tempo front
Wed - 5m easy + Strength
Thurs - 11 x 400 81, 80, 78, 82, 80, 80, 78, 78, 75, 78, 72

It was too easy so i started to give the group a few seconds and blasted one out at the end. I need to start at 78 next time, the first few are too comfortable

Fri - 4.6m easy + Strength
Sat - Hills 3 sets of 4

Okay i'm not going to moan about hills anymore, this session was killer and far from boring.

Sun - 10m @8.09 HR 155 Loving the progress in my long run

Solid weeks training but.....no rest day. Going to make sure that doesnt happen again, the only thing between me and my pb's is getting injured

MPW - 41.3

No blow ups and happy enough that I don't need to record it anymore, I have a handle on it!

Race Week NIA LIVE 800m

First 800m on Tuesday. At the moment my thoughts are to go hard and attack the 3rd lap when i usually bottle it or fall asleep. Hopefully there's people around me to race and we drag each other to respectful season openers. My PB is 2.08(i think!) so 2.10 would be a good start but i'll be aiming to go faster if possible. 32s laps sounds about right for now....could be way off :pac:

IvoryTower

Nia Live 800m

Felt awful today, was full sure I was coming down with something. Family are on off sick the last couple of weeks so it wouldn't be too surprising. Warming up I didn't feel myself still but i figured I'd get through the race and find out in the morning if Im actually sick.

Lap 1 - off we went, a bunch of about 5 or 6 lads were all on top of each other, there was a few metres gap then to me. It felt fast so I decided lot to close it. They passed in 30/31 with me 32, sounds good to me.

Lap 2 - I was happy with first lap so decided just to maintain that, they passed the line in 64 and me 66, dammit, we had all slowed, knew i needed to close the gap in the next lap

Lap 3 - I closed the gap and maybe passed one or two who were struggling to keep pace with leaders. Didn't see the time after 3rd lap

Lap 4 - I kicked right at the line, knew I had too much in the tank so wanted to make the most of it. Passed a couple more finishing in 3rd place. Another 20m and I think I would of won it so as usual I need to work on my pacing.

Finish time 2.08.63

Delighted with that, was a bit surprised tbh, after seeing 1.06 at 400 I was expecting about 2.10. Checked back on my indoor pb and it's 2.07 from leinsters last year. So I'm in a good place for December. I feel like 2.07 is already in me I just need to get the pacing right.

I'm still not sure if I'm sick, maybe run down, will know more tomorrow. The mind can play tricks on race day so I'm hopeful it's nothing. Definitely dont feel myself.

career move

Super well done

IvoryTower

Thanks Career Move



Indoor Schedule - All pending family life


11 Jan - Indoor league round 1 800
14 Jan - NIA Live mile
26 Jan - Indoor league round 2 800
28 Jan - NIA Live 800/mile
9 Feb - AAI Games 400
11 Feb - NIA Live TBC
22/23 Feb - Leinsters 800m
29 Feb National Seniors 400m
8 March - National Masters 800m

Sacksian

IvoryTower wrote: »

Nia Live 800m

Finish time 2.08.63

That's a really nice season opener - and, based on your report, there was probably another second or two in there.

You've probably ran as many 800s as I have at this stage, but I'd say 32 is too slow for your first 200. That puts you at 2:08 pace after the first 200 and inevitably your 2nd 200 is going to be slower as you settle. It's hard to recover from putting the brakes on at any stage in an 8. The fact you were able to pick up the 2nd lap suggests there's more to come.

Should definitely see you at Leinster & National Masters and a couple of NIALive nights!

IvoryTower

Yep fully agree, it tends to take me a few races to get it right. Bit braver next time. Without a doubt, I want to race everything :pac:

IvoryTower

Mon - Rest
Tues - Nia Live 800 2.08
Wed - 5m easy
Thurs - 10 x 400 78, 78, 77, 77, 80, 79, 78, 78, 78, 76

Lashing rain for the whole hour, great session

Fri - 2.79m My hr was through the roof just shuffling up the road, decided to go see a doc, bit over the top but ive felt this coming since Tuesday and would rather nip it in the bud. In my experience once i start to see yellow phlegm a full blown chest infection is inevitable. Doc agreed and gave me augmentin to clear it.

Sat - 12 x 200 with 2.30/walkback rest (On gravel track, very slight uphill)

32, 31, 31, 32, 32, 32, 30, 32, 31, 32, 33, 31

The long rest didnt put much pressure on my chest, comfortable session

Sun - 3m easy - This was meant to be my long run. Between a hard week, xmas party the night before, antibiotics, my feet started to cramp so i just called it a day. Things are going well, I think a couple of days rest to allow the drugs do their work is a good idea. If the baby hasnt arrived on Tues ill do a long run then


MPW - 22.6

Dubh Geannain

Don't be going for a long run if the baby is due

IvoryTower

Dubh Geannain wrote: »

Don't be going for a long run if the baby is due

ill carry the phone :pac:

IvoryTower

Christmas!

Mon - 30min rower easy
Tues - 50min bike easy
Wed - 4m easy
Thurs - 5 x 5min threshold, about 6.30 average, up and down the road outside my house, not a fan of training on footpaths, knees felt it
Fri - 4m easy last day of antibiotics
Sat - hill sprints 31/32 savage session, I'm stronger than ever on these, no doubt about it
Sun - 10m @9.04 hr140 nice easy long run before we head into hospital

Mpw - 28.9

A good week considering it was Christmas, antibiotics and waiting for the baby. I think she will be here either tonight or tomorrow. Let the fun begin! Update: induction is nye unless she arrives sooner

jamule

IvoryTower wrote: »

Christmas!

Mon - 30min rower easy
Tues - 50min bike easy
Wed - 4m easy
Thurs - 5 x 5min threshold, about 6.30 average, up and down the road outside my house, not a fan of training on footpaths, knees felt it
Fri - 4m easy last day of antibiotics
Sat - hill sprints 31/32 savage session, I'm stronger than ever on these, no doubt about it
Sun - 10m @9.04 hr140 nice easy long run before we head into hospital

Mpw - 28.9

A good week considering it was Christmas, antibiotics and waiting for the baby. I think she will be here either tonight or tomorrow. Let the fun begin! Update: induction is nye unless she arrives sooner

sure you will get a track session in between the contractions.

IvoryTower

jamule wrote: »

sure you will get a track session in between the contractions.

Up and down the steps?

Ah it looks busier than it is, 6am runs and we sit around all day doing **** all. Thats what I tell myself anyway

IvoryTower

Mon - 8 x 300 @52
Tues - BABY!!!! Baby girl was born, 9 pounds, still no name!
Wed - 6m easy up early before heading to hospital
Thurs - 10 x 400 r60. Early session again before hospital. @78, 77, 78, 78, 79, 81, 81, 80, 79, 80 It was really windy and i paid for it in the second half, happy with that.
Fri -6m easy. Family came home the night before, I stayed up all night to give the missus a rest so this was easy as can be. Baby didn't want to settle without being held so that was my night! Got 4 hours then in the morning. Let the fun begin!
Sat - (6 x 200) x 2, 60r, 4min between sets @31 31s felt right, good session. We both got plenty of sleep so hopefully the baby is settling in
Sun - 9.5m easy , another good nights sleep, convinced now this baby is going to be easy! Our son was really, really hard so it will hopefully feel easy even if its just kinda standard!

MPW 34

A solid week, felt pretty tired on the long run, happy to have tomorrow off. I don't feel the healthiest, chest just wont leave me alone, it doesnt seem to effect me while running but is just lingering since before Christmas . I'm running the easy and long runs as slow as possible. I dont see myself missing any sessions while im off work, I can train handy enough during the day, even hoping to race next Saturday all going well. Keeping on top of housework and everyone getting a full nights sleep is key, i think. Lots of napping. Not back until the 20th so I can worry about that when the time comes.