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Waterford GAA Discussion Thread 3 ***Updated Mod Note Post 1***
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Not sure how to embed pics but have a look at the first picture on the link, hon Tom Devine ya legend! Lovely gesture.
https://m.facebook.com/waterfordhurling?refsrc=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2Fwaterfordhurling
Good gesture hope he has a long successful career for Waterford. Already an all Ireland medalist with the minors0 -
I was going to make a tongue-in-cheek post about Cork getting inspiration from Tom Devine's behaviour and Cu Baire failing to name check the Cork no 7, and whaddya know didn't Poe's Law get there ahead of me. Someone pull Babs away from the Yes campaign, the langers need a donkeys quote to spur them on still further.0
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Oh my god, if Tomas Mulcahy said it, ye must be right. Sincerest apologies from everyone in the Deise. Do ye mind if we still come June 7th anyway? Obviously ye'll beat us, but would be nice to get some fresh air in ThurlesProfessey Chin wrote: »Former cork players in excuses making shocker......0 -
I didn't say ye were worse then DavyDeise_2012 wrote: »But it's totally wrong, Noel Connors is the most honest person you'll meet, the total opposite of arrogant. He sent a picture to Eden Hazard because Chelsea are blue and they won the league on the same day....it's called banter
To compare us with Davy is laughable IMO! Davy has a media circus surrounding him and it's his own fault, absolutely ridiculous to say we're worst than him. We celebrated Sunday and a few fellas were joking about All Ireland's. You are the one who keeps talking about the hype, we won the league and hammered a Cork side....we're hardly going to spend Sunday night worrying about June 7th...are we? It's a celebration, have no idea where you're getting all this hype from. Can't wait for June though, you have no excuses if we beat ye. Not trying in a league final because you don't want to give away tactics for a match in June that's 50/50....not playing the odds right mate
Please show where I did
I said the tweet and I'm fan noel who destroyed horgan again sending a tweet I said clare don't allow twitter and yes it banter etc but hype is going to over drive with Waterford
My points regards Waterford winding Davy up and Davy saying show me all Ireland medal is waterford player winding up cork player with he's celebrate imo will be same motivation for cork in cork will say what have they done st senior over us the last few years nothing really
I don't blame the Waterford lad during the game doing it like I said cork have done it but imo huge motivation to cork
Talk here you need to review since Sunday has been waterford are ahead of cork and would beat cork in the morning and all Ireland contenders two years
Team in progress yes with a long way to go imo0 -
Deise_2012 wrote: »Oh my god, if Tomas Mulcahy said it, ye must be right. Sincerest apologies from everyone in the Deise. Do ye mind if we still come June 7th anyway? Obviously ye'll beat us, but would be nice to get some fresh air in Thurles
Wrong there now sorry
You must read just half it as pat mulchay said it also hugely respected as a coach
No no waterford are the new kk sure as louganne said dark horses for all Ireland we are trying make up the numbers0 -
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thinkstoomuch1 wrote: »I'm only giving an opinion you don't like it fair enough but I always given opinion waterford thread before long after this game
I respect your opinion I don't agree with it but I don't tell you to hush
Please do the same
And I was to be fair standing up for Waterford player poster was on about
My point is a fair point regards o Connor tweet to hazard Chelsea
It made the news
He's entitled to do it but imo shows waterford are getting carried away with the hype
You want to counter debate it please do so
You have been writing jibberish on here for the last few days and have been pushing the notion that Cork weren't bothered by losing Sunday, which any reasonable person can see is bull****.
For someone who believes that Cork weren't bothered winning a national title you certainly have been bothered by it as evidenced by the number of posts from you trying to justify your ridiculous and frankly embarrassing theory.
Now you're pushing the idea that we're getting carried away with the win and you point to a tweet by a celebrating player, pathetic.
Finally you revert to the old 'show me your medals' jibe...and you expect people to "counter debate".
Maybe if you learned some humility and combined it with the ability to construct a sentence then maybe posters could engage in "counter debate" imo0 -
thinkstoomuch1 wrote: »Wouldn't worry bout that
noel Connor sending tweet to hazard Chelsea saying were league champions shows how the hype is getting carried away with Waterford he was right show
Ah I'd say Noel was just relieved that once again Pat Horgan didn't bother trying when he was on him.:cool:0 -
If Cork are capable of a 300% improvement in effort then that means they are sending out teams who are only giving 25% effort. I think we should stick that on the Waterford dressing room wall - Langers Say They Were Only At Quarter Pace In League Final.0
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Your entitled to your opinion but no need to get personal pleaseYou have been writing jibberish on here for the last few days and have been pushing the notion that Cork weren't bothered by losing Sunday, which any reasonable person can see is bull****.
For someone who believes that Cork weren't bothered winning a national title you certainly have been bothered by it as evidenced by the number of posts from you trying to justify your ridiculous and frankly embarrassing theory.
Now you're pushing the idea that we're getting carried away with the win and you point to a tweet by a celebrating player, pathetic.
Finally you revert to the old 'show me your medals' jibe...and you expect people to "counter debate".
Maybe if you learned some humility and combined it with the ability to construct a sentence then maybe posters could engage in "counter debate" imo
People here dont like the opposite view fair enough but people are surely entitled to debate it
It seems like if it's going against the popular view people are dismissed
No I'm not bothered at all, just numerous posts by waterford fans be fair review it please saying better than cork, will beat cork again and can challenge for all Irelands
Surely a cork man whether you agree or not fair enough is entitled to he's opinion
I said last week cork yes likes to win but certainly the main focus was June
It was said yesterday no cork man held that view yet that's incorrect as pat mulchay said it in the examiner today cork were holding back
Fair enough ye don't agree but cork are surely entitled to give their side of the debate, Waterford some not all just want to hear this side
That's not open debate to be fair0 -
There's no way cork entitled to that I agree and I said that on the cork thread but mulchay playing the mind games blowing up waterford and I said this would happen Sunday it didIf Cork are capable of a 300% improvement in effort then that means they are sending out teams who are only giving 25% effort. I think we should stick that on the Waterford dressing room wall - Langers Say They Were Only At Quarter Pace In League Final.
He's saying waterford so far ahead we need that and you said yourself bit far fetched
Whether you agree or not surely you realise the mind games started
I said gleasson who is terrific player would not get huge hype and imo unfair on him and even hype on paper today dhows it
Lehane faced huge hype in he's career I hope Gleeson doesn't face the same
He's terrific player imo0 -
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TTM1 - Do not confuse "hype" with "high spirits in celebration". Just because "hurling snobs" such as yourself decide to belittle the achievement of winning a national title, by saying the opposition were not interested and did not want to show their hand, does not take from what this team has achieved. When the euphoria dies down we will see whether or not this young side can keep their feet on the ground. My money is on they will.
Returning to your continuous content, along with that of many others, that JBM did not want to show, this being the truth is in itself is possible the biggest compliment that could be paid to this bunch of over-hyped youngsters. The thought that the mighty Cork with their tradition and buckets of all- Ireland medals might have been loosing a night sleep about showing their hand to lowly Waterford, facing them two weeks in a row, now there is a turn up for the books. We all remember the comments of Brian Corcoran about how Cork don't ever fear Waterford. What will happen in June will happen, the loser on that day will go in the back door and could well end up going further in the Championship than the winner, What happened last Sunday was Waterford won a national title and Cork once more failed to deliver on their "hype". So for now, with all your vaunted comments about being a real GAA person, give full credit where credit is due, to a side that were written off by many and up to Sunday have had their achievements constantly put down to others failings, and we can wait and debate in June what is likely to happen.0 -
I'm going to start a Flat Earth thread here on boards.ie. If anyone presents evidence to the contrary I'm going to say it's only my opinion and accuse them of stifling debate.0
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Alf Tupper wrote: »Ah I'd say Noel was just relieved that once again Pat Horgan didn't bother trying when he was on him.:cool:
Well it's been well proven long before Sunday o Connor has horgan number and o Connor is terrific defender
No cork man thinks horgan can better o Connor long before Sunday0 -
thinkstoomuch1 wrote: »My point is a fair point regards o Connor tweet to hazard Chelsea
It made the news
He's entitled to do it but imo shows waterford are getting carried away with the hype
You want to counter debate it please do so
Noel is a chelsea fan. That was the whole idea of the joke. The whole thing was tongue in cheek. It was banter with team mates and friends.
If thats the best thing you could come up with to throw at waterford then your really clutching at straws0 -
Well you bringing up old stuff regards cocoran not me but cocoran was right to be fair as records showTTM1 - Do not confuse "hype" with "high spirits in celebration". Just because "hurling snobs" such as yourself decide to belittle the achievement of winning a national title, by saying the opposition were not interested and did not want to show their hand, does not take from what this team has achieved. When the euphoria dies down we will see whether or not this young side can keep their feet on the ground. My money is on they will.
Returning to your continuous content, along with that of many others, that JBM did not want to show, this being the truth is in itself is possible the biggest compliment that could be paid to this bunch of over-hyped youngsters. The thought that the mighty Cork with their tradition and buckets of all- Ireland medals might have been loosing a night sleep about showing their hand to lowly Waterford, facing them two weeks in a row, now there is a turn up for the books. We all remember the comments of Brian Corcoran about how Cork don't ever fear Waterford. What will happen in June will happen, the loser on that day will go in the back door and could well end up going further in the Championship than the winner, What happened last Sunday was Waterford won a national title and Cork once more failed to deliver on their "hype". So for now, with all your vaunted comments about being a real GAA person, give full credit where credit is due, to a side that were written off by many and up to Sunday have had their achievements constantly put down to others failings, and we can wait and debate in June what is likely to happen.
I don't see the point like louganne in giving false hype saying waterford are all Ireland contenders and yes it makes him popular and my views are unpopular but surely any county likes realism
Calling me a hurling snob is a bit much
Im far from a hurling snob
I don't do false dawns and even with cork I like to see more evidence before I'm convinced
I want Dublin and wanted clare to do well
Many times said I like limerick to win an all Ireland
Nobody is belittle the achievement but like mulchay keeping it grounded in it was a win but nothing like the hype it's been made out to be in fairness
Ye won the league, made progress but Sunday game was no where near championship intensity
If ye beat KK fair enough but ye didn't
The myth tipperary are the best team in Ireland ye beat, tipp are not as kk were reigning league and all Ireland champions up to Sunday
In fairness I don't rate he's punditry but was a great player hugely admired john mullane pleased for realism in Waterford and said cork Sunday cork June be miles apart and that was not real cork Sunday and he's least trying to calm the hype
Honestly no one can say that Waterford hype in just two days hasn't gone a bit far with loughnane talk, many hear making it out waterford are suddenly the team to beat0 -
Back to Sundays performance - congratulations to every player and member of the management. A national medal in the pocket to join a Munster Minor or All Ireland Minor for many of these very young hurlers.
Much is made of the defensive system but what has been overlooked by man is the composure and stick work of some of our players. There were scores on Sunday that at time took my breath away, Paudi Mahony took two from play that he made look effortless, Kevin Moran two excellent strikes, the Brick who cannot score with two excellent points, no need to talk about Gleeson, and what about Stephen Bennett's rob and score under pressure, while the scores from Devine, O'Halloran Barron and Shanahan were not exactly tap overs.
Make no mistake about it this team has a lot to learn and a long way to go, we need to perfect our attacking options, which I believe would improve if we kept Dunford closer to goal more often alongside Bennett, Brick or Shanahan. Beyond doubt this side is work in progress and their will be set backs along the way, possibly even in early June, but i believe they have the ability and character to rise above the challenges they will face in the longer term
There are many others waiting to join the fray and competition for places over the next couple of years is going to be hectic. I am not predicting an All Ireland this year or next year and anytime soon - because all teams will be pushing for same, and national titles Leagues or All Irelands do not grow on trees. However I firmly believe we will be in the mix year on year for the next number of years with the best and I am excited at the prospect.
On a closing note it was wonderful to see the likes of Ken and Mullane and I am sure loads of other past players, celebrate as supporters, because they can now see the joy they gave us as supporters and they can take pride in the inspiration they have given to these young lads to make them what they are today. Long may they prosper.0 -
thinkstoomuch1 wrote: »http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/tomaacutes-mulcahy-cork-mustnbspup-workrate-by-200-328669.html
I'm not the only one thinking cork were not all totally focused this be fair
And I said this all past week not just being wise after
Ya but you are going on since like it is the most positive thing ever they weren't focussed.0 -
Back to Sundays performance - congratulations to every player and member of the management. A national medal in the pocket to join a Munster Minor or All Ireland Minor for many of these very young hurlers.
Remember pen pictures in match programmes? Waterford profiles used be laden with underage county medals and inter-firms titles. Bring back pen pictures goddamit!0 -
TTM1 - last time I looked Loughnane was a Clare man and we cannot be responsible for what he says - personally i take it with a grain of salt as he went on to emphasis that Clare should be looking at this and saying we one much more than Waterford at underage.
As regards the hurling snob comment, anyone that uses the old "show me your medals" comment falls into this category. It belittles great hurlers from all over this country who were not lucky enough to be born in the right county or to be part of great teams, and if you cannot understand that you are no real hurling fan.
In the lead up to last Sunday you constantly spoke about the Cork individuals who "in your opinion" were streets ahead of anything we could produce. You feign to be an admirer of a particular Waterford hurler but yet his name is Noel Connors not O'Connor , a bit of a slip for someone who is such an admirer. This is typical of those who say I'd love to see so and so win an All Ireland until they do and then they are accused of getting ideas above their station, because they don't have as many as Cork......show me your medals!!!!!!!!!
As regards Brian Corcoran's comments I personally feel he was a bit lofty in his comments regarding Waterford considering the number of times these sides beat each other, there was never anything between them. Indeed I remember plenty of games against Waterford that Brian Corocoran would be happy to forget. Let's not speak about the oul "sliother" down the togs either, another legendary effort from the lads and not a bit of embarrassment about it.0 -
thinkstoomuch1 wrote: »
Honestly no one can say that Waterford hype in just two days hasn't gone a bit far with loughnane talk, many hear making it out waterford are suddenly the team to beat
Honestly you are just hearing what you want to hear, almost every Waterford player management team and pundit almost immediately referenced this being no relation to June, almost every poster here is saying that the game is now 50/50 in June, no one is talking about beating anyone down here, ya enjoying the win but no hype.
The loughnane hype excuse me but he is not from Waterford what can we do about that.
I have asked this question already and you fail to answer, why couldn't a team of Corks experience and ability go and beat a young inexperienced Waterford team coming from 1B in the league final and the championship? Why couldn't they play with spirit and work rate Sunday regardless of systems etc?
You reference Clare in 98 - 98 was a
Totally different landscape, the Clare dressing room was full of all Ireland medals, it was winner takes all an Munster still meant something.0 -
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TyrionPower wrote: »Ya but you are going on since like it is the most positive thing ever they weren't focussed.
No I'm not honestly
But surely you see where I coming from a cork man reading all the hype waterford would beat cork again, Waterford nothing to fear etc, on one game that people have different opinions on what extent of value can be got from it
It's not the most postive thing absolutely not cork lost another national title but this team was behind a rock and a hard place imo in needed league title but as mulchay said cork winning after beating waterford last year in championship well put cork at an awful advantage going in to munster and jbm whether we like it or not as mulchay said don't do favourites well
Last year proved it v Waterford we should have lost the drawn game
Waterford pressure was on to deliver in the replay didn't and cork with no pressure won handy
In 12 under dogs cork beat waterford with late replacement coughlan starting for cork and he got a super goal
Tipp ran them to point huge underdogs
Galway massive underdogs competitive
Following year
Huge under dogs injury depleted team beat clare
Massive under dogs away to limerick have given great display up to horgan sending off
Kk under dogs and won
Dublin under dogs but I posted as I opened a thread for the game here cork to win
Clare under dogs and never have given up
Replay clare dominated us but cork never gave up and were expected by many to learn more from the drawn game
Last year underdogs to clare we won
Huge favourite to limerick in cork we struggled with nerves but won
Tipperary game we were among fans favourite but cork humiliating defeat for a lot of other reasons and also over confidence
In 99 waterford were favourites cork won
Clare the same cork won
All Ireland champions offaly the sane cork won
Kk huge favourite cork won
Following year cork huge favourite v offaly and lost in the semi final
Jbm teams are much much better as the form book shows as the under dog and all the hype and pressure is now on waterford0 -
I can't see photo you mean but the only gesture I saw from that player was when he ran in to mock the Cork No. 7 after the goal. Lovely.
Tom Devine is an absolute gem of a young lad. Got 600 pts in the leaving doing medicine now in UCC aswell as giving massive commitment to club and county over the past 2/3 years. Has been hurling non stop since modeligo won the junior munster club the straight onto the co setup in january. Not only that but also lined out for co. U21 footballers when other lads turn their nose up at it. Real nice down to earth lad but made of tough stuff too.. Maybe he got caught up in the heat of the moment there I dont know but must have been a rewarding day for him after all the commitment he has given. Totally out of character. Id judge him more for the gesture after the game than that harmless moment which id just put down to youthful exuberence. If cork need to use this as motivation the next day like TTM suggests then they really have fallen from grace0 -
Point is all games cocoran forgets he has few great days to cherishTTM1 - last time I looked Loughnane was a Clare man and we cannot be responsible for what he says - personally i take it with a grain of salt as he went on to emphasis that Clare should be looking at this and saying we one much more than Waterford at underage.
As regards the hurling snob comment, anyone that uses the old "show me your medals" comment falls into this category. It belittles great hurlers from all over this country who were not lucky enough to be born in the right county or to be part of great teams, and if you cannot understand that you are no real hurling fan.
In the lead up to last Sunday you constantly spoke about the Cork individuals who "in your opinion" were streets ahead of anything we could produce. You feign to be an admirer of a particular Waterford hurler but yet his name is Noel Connors not O'Connor , a bit of a slip for someone who is such an admirer. This is typical of those who say I'd love to see so and so win an All Ireland until they do and then they are accused of getting ideas above their station, because they don't have as many as Cork......show me your medals!!!!!!!!!
As regards Brian Corcoran's comments I personally feel he was a bit lofty in his comments regarding Waterford considering the number of times these sides beat each other, there was never anything between them. Indeed I remember plenty of games against Waterford that Brian Corocoran would be happy to forget. Let's not speak about the oul "sliother" down the togs either, another legendary effort from the lads and not a bit of embarrassment about it.
I've always been a fan of noel belittle my grammar all you want that's your choice
It's clear I meant noel
Not a hurling snob comments show me your medals but more when people who claim to be on higher ground harrows what another county ploughs then imo it has real value
The point was cork don't have all Ireland medals but a question many ignore when I ask bar Sunday the last four years what have waterford done to cork to show there ahead of us in heads to heads
Minor ye won yes but cork forced ye to extra time and badly coached cork last year still beat yere under twenty one team in Waterford
I just can't see how waterford are so confident based on that and Sundays game0 -
The point in Corcorand book was that he felt the cork players at the time were not afraid of Waterford as they felt that they could match Waterford for ability and also that the cork players had a better temperament collectively to a man.
Here I feel Corcoran was right, we had some outstanding hurlers but we had some guys who we needed whose behaviour would not have been put up with by Kilkenny or cork at the time.
Ranging from lazy, to selfish, wild pulls, giving out to refs, drinking, suspensions, rumours around the place look we all know the individuals... But these guys got away with it cause we needed them.
Pat Mulcahy said another thing Sunday, he said this is a new crop of Waterford players not like any he has seen, he said they are tenacious, hard working with an unreal ethic for the team, he said they are level headed , another words not like the guys he came up against.
Think of some of the pr!cks we had to put up with they wouldnt last now on this panel, the team is much more grounded and plays like it.0 -
thinkstoomuch1 wrote: »No I'm not honestly
But surely you see where I coming from a cork man reading all the hype waterford would beat cork again, Waterford nothing to fear etc, on one game that people have different opinions on what extent of value can be got from it
It's not the most postive thing absolutely not cork lost another national title but this team was behind a rock and a hard place imo in needed league title but as mulchay said cork winning after beating waterford last year in championship well put cork at an awful advantage going in to munster and jbm whether we like it or not as mulchay said don't do favourites well
Last year proved it v Waterford we should have lost the drawn game
Waterford pressure was on to deliver in the replay didn't and cork with no pressure won handy
In 12 under dogs cork beat waterford with late replacement coughlan starting for cork and he got a super goal
Tipp ran them to point huge underdogs
Galway massive underdogs competitive
Following year
Huge under dogs injury depleted team beat clare
Massive under dogs away to limerick have given great display up to horgan sending off
Kk under dogs and won
Dublin under dogs but I posted as I opened a thread for the game here cork to win
Clare under dogs and never have given up
Replay clare dominated us but cork never gave up and were expected by many to learn more from the drawn game
Last year underdogs to clare we won
Huge favourite to limerick in cork we struggled with nerves but won
Tipperary game we were among fans favourite but cork humiliating defeat for a lot of other reasons and also over confidence
In 99 waterford were favourites cork won
Clare the same cork won
All Ireland champions offaly the sane cork won
Kk huge favourite cork won
Following year cork huge favourite v offaly and lost in the semi final
Jbm teams are much much better as the form book shows as the under dog and all the hype and pressure is now on waterford
There is no hype coming from Waterford you are believing a stereotype0 -
TyrionPower wrote: »Honestly you are just hearing what you want to hear, almost every Waterford player management team and pundit almost immediately referenced this being no relation to June, almost every poster here is saying that the game is now 50/50 in June, no one is talking about beating anyone down here, ya enjoying the win but no hype.
The loughnane hype excuse me but he is not from Waterford what can we do about that.
I have asked this question already and you fail to answer, why couldn't a team of Corks experience and ability go and beat a young inexperienced Waterford team coming from 1B in the league final and the championship? Why couldn't they play with spirit and work rate Sunday regardless of systems etc?
You reference Clare in 98 - 98 was a
Totally different landscape, the Clare dressing room was full of all Ireland medals, it was winner takes all an Munster still meant something.
To be fair review the posts since Sunday the majority of the views have been waterford are ahead and in the driving seat
I answered your question already but I will say it again
Cork don't have the confidence or panel to beat Waterford twice and kk showed how difficult beat clare at home two weeks in a row where's as with all injury etc still have better panel and more successful than cork to do it but they struggled
Now I hsve a question for you
What in the last four years have waterford done at minor senior etc to show their hugely ahead of cork and surely you agree in head to head cork are at least equal but won last two championship games
Also would you not agree cork refused make one change to the system four points down at half time and had like I said all week up the game to be fair had four injury concerns
Would you not agree I was right I called it during the week and at half time I said cork would fall away
My point is surely you can see this was not the real cork Sunday
Most neutrals I talk to and cork men agree0 -
TyrionPower wrote: »There is no hype coming from Waterford you are believing a stereotype
Now to be fair there is
I notice when I give example points the best I get back is from some told to be quiet but your case short statements here
You surely agree by my examples all games under jbm cork do not play well as favourites but as under dog huge force to be reckoned with and lack under age success where none bar Nash a sub keeper has an all Ireland means cork never liked old teams had swagger confidence inner belief to deal with huge expectations but once written off are a different team
Such a mindset means we won't win an all Ireland but we're well able for Waterford who have huge expectations now and hsve no doubt it gets to every team it will get to waterford as their a young side
Have no doubt jbm realised with landers the huge pressure a win Sunday had on the team for munster where now all cork writing us off bar a few
There's a huge like mulchay said back lash in cork absolutely huge performance in them
If waterford are that good to improve further I'll be the first to congratulate ye but ye will have imo to find another twenty per cent where cork have greater scope for improvement and once harnedy is fit I'm confident
Harnedy would yes be a huge loss0 -
Its beginning to sound like we're becoming a thorn in the sides of the golden circle and how dare we attempt to eat from the top table. And for whatever reason things don't go according to plan during the championship i am sure we'll have posters waiting to put us back in our box and we'll be told that normal service is resumed but unfortunately for those people its beginning to look like we're not going away anytime soon so maybe we'll have to be getting fitted out in preparation of tucking into some fine cuisine at the captain's table!0
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I saw you were after a few pints Sunday when you posted here, so I assume you took my advice on Waterford to win and Mayweather to win on points. How good was Creation? hahaarchieknox wrote: »Its beginning to sound like we're becoming a thorn in the sides of the golden circle and how dare we attempt to eat from the top table. And for whatever reason things don't go according to plan during the championship i am sure we'll have posters waiting to put us back in our box and we'll be told that normal service is resumed but unfortunately for those people its beginning to look like we're not going away anytime soon so maybe we'll have to be getting fitted out in preparation of tucking into some fine cuisine at the captain's table!0 -
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It irks me that the only people on here who are dragging the waterford players names through the mud are people from outside the county who know nothing of the players personal character. They are just twisting it to suit their own argument that waterford are a bunch of over-hyped primma donna wannabes and trying to build us up for a big fall. It just proves the level of absolute bull**** that these people speak. As if it needed to be proved0
This discussion has been closed.
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