HearthStone Heroes of Warcraft

nesf

Nody wrote: »

The complaint came because of the legendaries required in a top (i.e. rank 7+) deck (and as the balance/deck types swing you need different once which require a lot of dust to craft 'em all) and people hence claimed it's "pay to win" because you can't craft a deck taking you to tier 1 from the basic cards (yea, hefty leaning to pay to win I know :pac: )

I hope they never try to play tanks without Premium. :P

Nody

nesf wrote: »

I hope they never try to play tanks without Premium. :P

There was a post about a guy who got to tier 10 (and bought the tank) with out premium tank or premium membership about a year ago :P.

Tar.Aldarion

Games are more p2w than hearthstone, it still is though, it's not necessarily a bad thing. I think it is p2w as in you can't play competitively for a long time without paying, still it's pretty damn fair to free users. You don't need to pay anything and get things in a fairly speedy time, unlike LoL which is a step up, and again games that are far worse like world of tanks.

You don't need to spend a cent in dota 2, it gives you nothing towards gameplay, however it's valves most popular game, being more popular than the rest of the top 100 combined and people spend a fortune on it. As seen by the fact that people from the public who make purely cosmetic items for dota 2 have started buying houses with their profits. The real secret to this success is to let users create content, give thema platform to do taht and they will make it all day long. When something is sold the content creator and the company get a share.

You can make people want things without it affecting gameplay, however it is a fairly difficult task. I think hearthstone is quite fair as in I can say i will easily get all the cards given some time and could easily add other things that you pay for apart from cards. Custom animations, custom skins, custom modes, custom portraits, and that's with 2 seconds of thought. Apart from that, they will no doubt start adding cards also.

nesf

Nody wrote: »

There was a post about a guy who got to tier 10 (and bought the tank) with out premium tank or premium membership about a year ago :P.

Sure, I'm not worried about that part, I'm worried about when they want to be active Clan Wars players. That's not cheap.

Seifer

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

Games are more p2w than hearthstone, it still is though, it's not necessarily a bad thing. I think it is p2w as in you can't play competitively for a long time without paying, still it's pretty damn fair to free users. You don't need to pay anything and get things in a fairly speedy time, unlike LoL which is a step up, and again games that are far worse like world of tanks.

You don't need to spend a cent in LoL to be competitive. You do have to hit level 30 to play ranked but that is time that is pretty necessary to get up the steep learning curve of the game.

Tar.Aldarion

All I see is LoL players complaining about it being pay2win on reddit, complaining that it takes them years to get champions and runes. No you don't have to pay to get everything but you have to play for a long to get it for free. Consider an experienced player from another game coming to LoL where they typically don't need long to adjust to a different moba, to play properly they need all the heroes, they can't practice properly without them. What if they don't have a lane counter or a hero you want for a strategy? What if they can't practice on all the heroes. At the very top level these people generally get everything unlocked, however lower down you have different skill level leagues all the way to newbs where your hero pool is quite limited.

I dunno, I was very put of playing it anyway, things like needing 400000 IP to get all teh runes, having very few champs and such. Whereas I can go to dota and play every hero the same as my favourite top team, emulate their strategies and so on. It's not really pay to win in these games, it's pay to get an advantage or duke it out over a long time.

The overwhelming thing I get from LoL players on reddit is that they feel you have to pay a lot if you want to be competitive. The strong champions change almost every patch, if you can't keep up with meta trends you tend to lose lots of games you shouldn't. I don't know how true it is, just reading the top comments browsing mostly so I'm no expert.

Seifer

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

All I see is LoL players complaining about it being pay2win on reddit, complaining that it takes them years to get champions and runes. No you don't have to pay to get everything but you have to play for a long to get it for free. Consider an experienced player from another game coming to LoL where they typically don't need long to adjust to a different moba, to play properly they need all the heroes, they can't practice properly without them. What if they don't have a lane counter or a hero you want for a strategy? What if they can't practice on all the heroes. At the very top level these people generally get everything unlocked, however lower down you have different skill level leagues all the way to newbs where your hero pool is quite limited.

I dunno, I was very put of playing it anyway, things like needing 400000 IP to get all teh runes, having very few champs and such. Whereas I can go to dota and play every hero the same as my favourite top team, emulate their strategies and so on. It's not really pay to win in these games, it's pay to get an advantage or duke it out over a long time.

The overwhelming thing I get from LoL players on reddit is that they feel you have to pay a lot if you want to be competitive. The strong champions change almost every patch, if you can't keep up with meta trends you tend to lose lots of games you shouldn't. I don't know how true it is, just reading the top comments browsing mostly so I'm no expert.

This is about paying to win; you don't need everything to win. There are a core set of runes that work for almost all roles; you don't need every rune. If you're trying to be competitive you're going to focus on one or two roles or even one or two heroes; so you don't need anywhere near the full roster of champions to compete. Hard countering isn't so much of a factor in LoL.
At lower skill levels paying to win isn't relevant; skill in the limiting factor not money.

The whiners are always going to be the loudest. The meta doesn't shift that drastically; there may be more noise now due to a lot of fundamental changes coinciding with the start of a new season.

With Hearthstone you can get 100g a day (that requires 30 wins) + your daily. Then if you want more you have to gamble in the arena.
With LoL there is no cap to how much IP you can earn in a day. With the same amount of time spent you're going to unlock a lot more relevant content a lot quicker which is why I think a lot of LoL players see Hearthstone as being more pay to win.

Tar.Aldarion

nesf

Seifer wrote: »

This is about paying to win; you don't need everything to win. There are a core set of runes that work for almost all roles; you don't need every rune. If you're trying to be competitive you're going to focus on one or two roles or even one or two heroes; so you don't need anywhere near the full roster of champions to compete. Hard countering isn't so much of a factor in LoL.
At lower skill levels paying to win isn't relevant; skill in the limiting factor not money.

The whiners are always going to be the loudest. The meta doesn't shift that drastically; there may be more noise now due to a lot of fundamental changes coinciding with the start of a new season.

With Hearthstone you can get 100g a day (that requires 30 wins) + your daily. Then if you want more you have to gamble in the arena.
With LoL there is no cap to how much IP you can earn in a day. With the same amount of time spent you're going to unlock a lot more relevant content a lot quicker which is why I think a lot of LoL players see Hearthstone as being more pay to win.

I think a lot of the perception is coming from: ten years ago you had to sink in the time to gain the basic reflexes and hand speed to play an FPS. You couldn't avoid this, but if you changed to a new FPS you could usually quite quickly get to around your level of play because most of the "grind" was about building these skills and some unique quirks about the game but it was mostly about having the base skillset. The issue now is the grind isn't just this, there's also a lot of "play a lot or pay to unlock" mechanisms in many games now. It's becoming very very prevalent and is grating against people who lack both money and time. Though to people used to how CCGs work it isn't really much of an adjustment.

Separate to this you have games like World of Tanks that aren't Pay-to-Win in any reasonable use of the word but where there is a very strong incentive for regular players to put money into a "Free to Play" game. It's very hard to win without paying (it involves a rather insane time sink at the highest levels) but paying doesn't increase your chance of winning really, it just means you can play less to get the same amount of credits which you can use to fund the ammo costs of competing at high level. It's very much Pay-to-Play dressed up as Free-to-Play rather than Pay-to-Win.

Anyone

Seifer wrote: »

Coin into totem and you know it's going to be an easy game

Dennis

TheDoc

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

All I see is LoL players complaining about it being pay2win on reddit, complaining that it takes them years to get champions and runes.

And hopefully they are put down as morons.

LoL makes you go through an account levelling process before you partake in ranked. With the currency you get from those games by max level you should have a comfortable set of runes and champions.

At the rate you earn "IP" within the game playing ranked, you can quickly sort out all your runes, and then it wont be long before you are quickly filling your champions pool. At any time there is only about 8-10 champions worthy in the meta anyway, so you don't need the full catalogue. And there is enough sales and discounts that if you wanted, you could accelerate the rate at which you expand your champion catalogue relatively easy and cheaply.

nesf

TheDoc wrote: »

And hopefully they are put down as morons.

LoL makes you go through an account levelling process before you partake in ranked. With the currency you get from those games by max level you should have a comfortable set of runes and champions.

At the rate you earn "IP" within the game playing ranked, you can quickly sort out all your runes, and then it wont be long before you are quickly filling your champions pool. At any time there is only about 8-10 champions worthy in the meta anyway, so you don't need the full catalogue. And there is enough sales and discounts that if you wanted, you could accelerate the rate at which you expand your champion catalogue relatively easy and cheaply.

The problem is, they're usually unwaged teens or college students dependent on parents for money and they don't like the idea that someone with a wage, e.g. me could come in and just buy the 10 heroes I want plus the needed runes on my first day. That having these heroes and runes won't suddenly turn me into a skilled player doesn't seem to occur them. Sure I'll be slightly more effective than perhaps I would be if I was playing for free but a) a good player will still own me and b) in both the free and pay-for case if I play for several months I'll probably end up with the same stuff excluding skins.

About the only thing I dislike about Riot's system is that it heavily encourages botting for IP farming which both soaks up Riot resources in combating it and screws players over when they've a bot on their team. I don't have experience of this with LoL but I've seen it in World of Tanks and other games (it's getting to the point that it's becoming hard to tell a bot in WoT from just a very bad human player).

DeSelby83

Im really starting to enjoy this game. I dont know what cards i have or what combats what but im having fun playing and getting some gold together to buy packs. Maybe its that there is more new comers just arrived but im about 50/50 in my games so far. Havnt tried arena yet, bit daunting so far

Spunge

How does this compare to magic the gathering online version ?
if anyone even played it

Nody

Spunge wrote: »

How does this compare to magic the gathering online version ?
if anyone even played it

Fewer cards, less complicated in general and far less complex decks but longer games.

nesf

Spunge wrote: »

How does this compare to magic the gathering online version ?
if anyone even played it

A lot cheaper to play. Far superior interface (really wouldn't be hard), simpler game (but not simple) and far better suited to online play: the big issue with Magic Online is getting the timings for interrupts and instants being played correct whilst still allowing the game to go at a good pace when nothing unusual is happening, this is tricky to do without making things very complicated with loads of different phases in each turn.

Magic Online is very much not something I'd recommend someone play before they learned how to play Magic offline (or some other similar CCG). I'd have no problem directing a CCG novice towards Hearthstone though.

Tar.Aldarion

Just opened another 15 packs, still not one legendary. RNGsus does not shine upon me.

Gbear

This is great craic.

I'm pretty ****e though.

I can get along with the Paladin: Put things on board. Put more things on board. Don't die. Win eventually.

Haven't the foggiest how to play any of the others though.

Nody

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

Just opened another 15 packs, still not one legendary. RNGsus does not shine upon me.

From my experience the ratio is around 1/30 packs.

Tar.Aldarion

Gbear wrote: »

This is great craic.

I'm pretty ****e though.

I can get along with the Paladin: Put things on board. Put more things on board. Don't die. Win eventually.

Haven't the foggiest how to play any of the others though.

You'll get used to them pretty fast, it's all pretty simple but complex to do well. Really cool game.

Nody wrote: »

From my experience the ratio is around 1/30 packs.

I'd say I'm fast approaching 100 without one yet grrr. And then I see people with 2 or 3 in a pack ha. Opening packs is really fun, love the way they do it.

DeSelby83

how often do that daily quests change or is it individual to the player, will it be 24 hrs since i completed my last one before it appears again?

Tar.Aldarion

Just at the same time every day, I think it's late enough in the day for us in europe.

Tar.Aldarion

Opened another 2 packs, both rares were....angry chicken, lmao.

nesf

Gbear wrote: »

This is great craic.

I'm pretty ****e though.

I can get along with the Paladin: Put things on board. Put more things on board. Don't die. Win eventually.

Haven't the foggiest how to play any of the others though.

The simplest ways to divide decks is into:

1) Fast Aggro
2) Midrange Aggro
3) Control

1) Means, your deck has either won by turn 15 or earlier or you are almost certainly going to die. An example would be the Murloc deck (loads of cheap cards that buff each other, so if you get 5 or 6 on the board with some kind of buff card to play you kill things fast). Another would be that Charge orientated Hunter Deck at the moment (almost every minion has charge, the idea being you start hammering their health early and keep going until they stabilise and crush you or you kill them, the hunter power helps a lot here).

2) Means, stay alive until you can get big stuff out. You have a good few early creatures but your killing blow is going to come from mana cost 6+ cards. Whereas most of the Fast aggro decks want to play sub 5 mana with almost every card because they need to get creatures out asap and can't afford to draw a bunch of 6/7 mana cost cards for their starting hand (they're almost certainly dead if this happens).

3) Means a lot of removal/board clear/board control and then late game drop 2 or 3 big creatures and crush your opponent. You need the board clear etc because you won't survive to get those big decks out against more aggressive decks. It's not that you don't run creatures, you do, but you've a lot more cards and effects for board clear than a straight aggro deck would.

You can get hybrids too obviously, midrange aggro with a lot of cheap removal to survive early on and similar. The core idea is, don't just throw cards you like together. Figure out how you're going to win and start building a deck around that but remember to figure out what beats you most easily too and to include some cards to deal with that (e.g. Paladin going for big late game minions probably wants Consecration to deal with any mass of small minions in the early game etc).

I hope that helps.

Gbear

I have a fairly even win rate against most classes with my Paladin but I can't beat Rogues or Priests. Ever.

With priests I can't kill anything.
With Rogues they kill everything I have and attack with impunity.

I have a couple of consecrations in there which help with clearing the board but thats it.

What sort of minions help with board control?

And another thing; how are the first few turns supposed to play out?
Is it ok to skip turns or is it always better to get a card out?
When should you use the coin? I've generally tended to hold onto it until my 3rd turn and then get something like that troll Shieldmaster taunter.

Is it possible to get a decent amount of cards just by playing normal amounts or are your options either grind loads or spend money?

nesf

Try this deck, it's made totally from cards you get just by taking a Paladin to level 10 for the free cards: http://www.icy-veins.com/hearthstone-basic-paladin-deck

It's effective and will help you with the mechanics. There are similar decks for all the other classes too.

Nody

Gbear wrote: »

I have a fairly even win rate against most classes with my Paladin but I can't beat Rogues or Priests. Ever.

With priests I can't kill anything.

Don't let leave creatures with health left for him to heal up.

With Rogues they kill everything I have and attack with impunity.

They WILL remove a few creatures so plan accordingly and have back up solutions (i.e. on death spawn another creature, redemption trap etc. and divine shield creatures, rogues HATE divine shield) and try to slow down the initial damage (remember they need to combo most of their abilities by playing one card after another so they tend to run low on cards quickly).

What sort of minions help with board control?

2x Wild Pyromancers + 2x Equality = guaranteed board wipe twice over (Play Pyro, Play Equality which puts everything to 1 health and triger Pyro's 1 health to everything) and can be played with Consecration for 3 damage to enemy board.

And another thing; how are the first few turns supposed to play out?
Is it ok to skip turns or is it always better to get a card out?

99% of the time you should play a card (exceptions being 1 health creatures against classes that can hero skill kill them such as mages or rogues) and buff creatures (and half the time you should consider playing those as well) because you're losing board control which is a fast way to lose the game from damage ramping up (i.e. when you finally play a creature they got more on the board and can keep on taking it out and hitting your face).

When should you use the coin? I've generally tended to hold onto it until my 3rd turn and then get something like that troll Shieldmaster taunter.

Turn 1 if they don't play anything (because your 2+ health creature is likely to hit them in the face and turn after you can trade it for one of their cards) or if you got a good 3/4/5 drop saving it up for it can be worth it but rarely is (because by then they are likely to have removal cards in hand and by playing a big creature that removal card gets more value out of it).

Is it possible to get a decent amount of cards just by playing normal amounts or are your options either grind loads or spend money?

Yes there is but you're very limited with out opening packages at the start. When you've opened around 40 packs you'll basically have every card except some epics and most legendaries which makes a ton of difference for deck building. By 80 packs you'll have every card except legendaries.

Tar.Aldarion

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=IuAAU5zGThI#t=195

hahaa

Nody

How to use Deathwing to win!

Seifer

Quest bug is finally fixed: http://us.battle.net/hearthstone/en/forum/topic/11290138936?page=11#201