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RTE & the property tax

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    #602
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    SamHall wrote: »
    But you refused to pay a poll tax.

    Like I've already stated - I fully expected to have to pay my poll tax and any accrued penalties.


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    #603
    Banjo String
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,380 ✭✭✭✭Banjo String


    alastair wrote: »
    Like I've already stated - I fully expected to have to pay my poll tax and any accrued penalties.

    Well.....All of the homeowners who refuse to voluntary pay this lpt have been repeatedly told by govt and revenue that they'll forcibly take it from us regardless.

    You've set the bar on criminality and taxation, so we're no less criminals than you are.

    Welcome to the club.


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    #604
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    SamHall wrote: »
    Well.....All of the homeowners who refuse to voluntary pay this lpt have been repeatedly told by govt and revenue that they'll forcibly take it from us regardless.

    You've set the bar on criminality and taxation, so we're no less criminals than you are.

    Welcome to the club.

    Sorry - unless I start claiming that I won't pay my taxes, we're in very different clubs. I'm 100% tax compliant. If you can't spot the difference, there's not much more I can do to help. The property tax is no more voluntary than any other tax you pay.


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    #605
    Banjo String
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,380 ✭✭✭✭Banjo String


    alastair wrote: »
    Sorry - unless I start claiming that I won't pay my taxes, we're in very different clubs. I'm 100% tax compliant. If you can't spot the difference, there's not much more I can do to help. The property tax is no more voluntary than any other tax you pay.

    Was the poll tax (that you refused to pay) voluntary at the time?

    I don't need help in spotting hypocrisy. Thanks for your concern though.


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    #606
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    SamHall wrote: »
    Was the poll tax (that you refused to pay) voluntary at the time?

    I don't need help in spotting hypocrisy. Thanks for your concern though.

    No it wasn't, but then I wasn't deluding myself that I wouldn't have to pay it just because I disagreed with it. This thread is filled with the sort of 'they can jump if they think I'll ever pay' nonsense - which does indeed offer a handy leap from protest action to unlawful activity to criminality. I was never in a position where I was breaking a law, or advocating doing so.

    If you're acknowledging that you will indeed pay up in the end of the day, then you avoid criminal behaviour - but the hypocrisy is in pretending otherwise.


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    #607
    donegal_road
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,281 ✭✭✭donegal_road


    gowley wrote: »
    does anyone else have a feeling that alastair is working as a spin doctor for one of the government parties

    yep, you get them on all these threads. They are there to counterbalance the arguments so as that they are not a one sided affair.

    (The Troika guys might be looking in, you got to keep them happy)


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    #608
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    donegal_road wrote: »
    yep, you get them on all these threads. They are there to counterbalance the arguments so as that they are not a one sided affair.

    (The Troika guys might be looking in, you got to keep them happy)

    Which do you prefer - Bacofoil or the own brand stuff?


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    #609
    Banjo String
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,380 ✭✭✭✭Banjo String


    alastair wrote: »
    No it wasn't, but then I wasn't deluding myself that I wouldn't have to pay it just because I disagreed with it. This thread is filled with the sort of 'they can jump if they think I'll ever pay' nonsense - which does indeed offer a handy leap from protest action to unlawful activity to criminality. I was never in a position where I was breaking a law, or advocating doing so.

    When you refused to pay a tax, you (by your definition) engaged in criminality.

    You set the rule here, not me. We can do this all day if you like. You've said on this thread that
    Not paying your taxes is indeed unlawful - no harm in clarifying that fact.

    You did not pay a lawful tax in the UK, you refused. By your logic, that's an open and shut case of unlawful behaviour.
    alastair wrote: »
    If you're acknowledging that you will indeed pay up in the end of the day, then you avoid criminal behaviour - but the hypocrisy is in pretending otherwise.

    I will pay it when/if they forcibly take it from me. If hundreds of thousands like me take the same stance, it will be unworkable/unenforceable.

    Don't try pretending otherwise. You only have to look at the huge numbers of non compliance for the hhc. How many got prosecuted there?

    They (revenue and the govt) are still groping in the dark. I can play the waiting game for the next general election.

    Do not kid yourself that fg will return to power.


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    #610
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    SamHall wrote: »
    When you refused to pay a tax, you (by your definition) engaged in criminality.

    Nope - refusing to pay your tax is unlawful - at some point it may well become criminal activity if you continue to obstruct collection of those taxes and it goes to court.

    SamHall wrote: »
    I will pay it when/if they forcibly take it from me. If hundreds of thousands like me take the same stance, it will be unworkable/unenforceable.

    The majority of your taxes are 'forcibly' taken from you - I don't see the system breaking down on the back of that reality. Glad to hear you concede that you'll pay in the end though.
    SamHall wrote: »
    Don't try pretending otherwise. You only have to look at the huge numbers of non compliance for the hhc. How many got prosecuted there?
    None - because the revenue will be taking that HHC and the rest (200 euro in total) from July. Why bother with prosecutions in those circumstances?
    SamHall wrote: »
    They (revenue and the govt) are still groping in the dark. I can play the waiting game for the next general election.

    Do not kid yourself that fg will return to power.

    You seriously believe that SF* will form a majority govt? Because FG, Lab, FF, and assorted others all support the property tax, or accept it's inevitability. :rolleyes:

    *Assuming they would behave differently here than in NI - where they enforce a taxation system they claim to oppose.


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    #611
    Banjo String
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,380 ✭✭✭✭Banjo String


    alastair wrote: »
    Nope - refusing to pay your tax is unlawful - at some point it may well become criminal activity if you continue to obstruct collection of those taxes and it goes to court.

    So you actually paid the poll tax so?

    alastair wrote: »

    The majority of your taxes are 'forcibly' taken from you - I don't see the system breaking down on the back of that reality. Glad to hear you concede that you'll pay in the end though.

    Yeah. Let them forcibly take it from us. I'll not do their work for them though.
    Time will tell.

    alastair wrote: »
    None - because the revenue will be taking that HHC and the rest (200 euro in total) from July. Why bother with prosecutions in those circumstances?

    Revenue still don't know who owns what/paid what. I don't envisage them untangling that puzzle before the next general election.

    alastair wrote: »
    You seriously believe that SF* will form a majority govt? Because FG, Lab, FF, and assorted others all support the property tax, or accept it's inevitability. :rolleyes:

    *Assuming they would behave differently here than in NI - where they enforce a taxation system they claim to oppose.

    I never mentioned SF tbh.

    FF have voiced opposition to the lpt. Wrong tax, wrong time is their slogan if memory serves me correctly.

    You honestly don't think they'll engage in some form of vote buying in such a thorny issue?

    Just like when rates were abolished lol.


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    #612
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    SamHall wrote: »
    So you actually paid the poll tax so?

    It collapsed before I had to. There was no subsequent obligation to pay it. But the poll tax was opposed by pretty much everyone except Thatcher herself - my local authority for instance was opposed to it, and didn't do much to encourage it's implementation.



    SamHall wrote: »
    Yeah. Let them forcibly take it from us. I'll not do their work for them though.
    Time will tell.

    It'll be no bother for them, and there's the bonus of penalty payments.



    SamHall wrote: »
    Revenue still don't know who owns what/paid what. I don't envisage them untangling that puzzle before the next general election.

    Best of luck with that strategy.



    SamHall wrote: »
    I never mentioned SF tbh.

    FF have voiced opposition to the lpt. Wrong tax, wrong time is their slogan if memory serves me correctly.

    FF introduced the property tax. You'd have to be pretty gullible if you think FF will do anything but continue to apply it.
    SamHall wrote: »
    You honestly don't think they'll engage in some form of vote buying in such a thorny issue?

    Just like when rates were abolished lol.

    Rates were abolished at a time of economic growth, and in a context of the other parties also sharing electoral policies of abolishing rates. Quite a different set of electoral circumstances.


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    #613
    donegal_road
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,281 ✭✭✭donegal_road


    alastair wrote: »
    Which do you prefer - Bacofoil or the own brand stuff?

    not meaning to derail the thread, so I will only bring this up once. I have a friend who worked for a senior FF TD's office during the last government. ( a job is a job as he said himself)
    He told me that part of his working day consisted of checking RIP.ie and Highland Radio obituaries so that he could alert his boss of any funerals that needed to be attended. They would also spend some time on boards.ie and politics.ie to argue in favour of government policies.
    So yes, there are people out there that do this, I heard it from the horses mouth.

    *I didn't mean to accuse you of being one of them, so apologies.


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    #614
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    donegal_road wrote: »
    not meaning to derail the thread, so I will only bring this up once. I have a friend who worked for a senior FF TD's office during the last government. ( a job is a job as he said himself)
    He told me that part of his working day consisted of checking RIP.ie and Highland Radio obituaries so that he could alert his boss of any funerals that needed to be attended. They would also spend some time on boards.ie and politics.ie to argue in favour of government policies.
    So yes, there are people out there that do this, I heard it from the horses mouth.

    *I didn't mean to accuse you of being one of them, so apologies.

    Mary Coughlan employed a horse to post on forums? That might explain the lack of positive posts relating to competancy in her job. A monkey now - there's the recipe for success.

    The trioka don't invest one iota of interest in anyone's missives here - Mary's horse notwithstanding.


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    #615
    Banjo String
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,380 ✭✭✭✭Banjo String


    alastair wrote: »
    It collapsed before I had to. There was no subsequent obligation to pay it. But the poll tax was opposed by pretty much everyone except Thatcher herself - my local authority for instance was opposed to it, and didn't do much to encourage it's implementation.

    I'm following your strategy. Hopefully the govt will collapse before its taken from me.
    (Cpa might speed is demise up)



    alastair wrote: »

    It'll be no bother for them, and there's the bonus of penalty payments.

    That may be true if it applied to me alone. Hundreds of thousands though? It'll take time.




    alastair wrote: »
    Best of luck with that strategy.

    As above.



    alastair wrote: »

    FF introduced the property tax. You'd have to be pretty gullible if you think FF will do anything but continue to apply it.

    As gullible as those who fell for fg and labours pre election lies?
    alastair wrote: »

    Rates were abolished at a time of economic growth, and in a context of the other parties also sharing electoral policies of abolishing rates. Quite a different set of electoral circumstances.

    An lpt should only be introduced at a time of economic growth.

    Lot of hypocrisy from govt supporters on this thread.

    We should have a property tax because every other country has one. ...
    We shouldn't raise corporation tax to match every other countries. ...

    It goes on and on.


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    #616
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    SamHall wrote: »
    I'm following your strategy. Hopefully the govt will collapse before its taken from me.
    (Cpa might speed is demise up).
    Hope over common sense then. If you're relying on FF both forming a majority goverment, and having any intention of finding an alternative to the property tax, you're looking at some long odds.

    SamHall wrote: »
    That may be true if it applied to me alone. Hundreds of thousands though? It'll take time.
    The revenue isn't generally known for it's lack of persistence.


    SamHall wrote: »
    As gullible as those who fell for fg and labours pre election lies?
    More so, if anything.

    SamHall wrote: »
    An lpt should only be introduced at a time of economic growth.
    When it's less required?
    SamHall wrote: »
    Lot of hypocrisy from govt supporters on this thread.

    We should have a property tax because every other country has one. ...
    We shouldn't raise corporation tax to match every other countries. ...

    It goes on and on.

    I don't see anyone claiming we should have property taxes just because the other cool kids do. The benefits of a sustainable taxation system are rather more compelling.


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    #617
    Zebra3
    Registered Users Posts: 13,857 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    alastair wrote: »
    The benefits of a sustainable taxation system are rather more compelling.

    A sustainable taxation system is to be lauded, however people aren't idiots.

    The scum who destroyed this country are still being rewarded from our taxes and our taxes are paying private gambling debts.

    We need a sustainable taxation system, but it must go hand in hand with sensible spending of our taxes.


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    #618
    donegal_road
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,281 ✭✭✭donegal_road


    would it be fair to say that very many people now, do not trust the government, given their failure to deliver on their pre-election promises, and the very poor handling of an array of other issues.

    How can they be trusted to implement the new property tax system in a fair and effective way?


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    #619
    Banjo String
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,380 ✭✭✭✭Banjo String


    alastair wrote: »
    Hope over common sense then. If you're relying on FF both forming a majority goverment, and having any intention of finding an alternative to the property tax, you're looking at some long odds.

    I'll take my chances. I'd rather pay up with penalties when forced to, than pay up meekly, then not get a refund when the coalition collapses.

    alastair wrote: »
    The revenue isn't generally known for it's lack of persistence.

    Maybe they'll cut me a deal like Hegarty and Wallace?


    alastair wrote: »
    When it's less required?

    When people can afford it.

    alastair wrote: »
    I don't see anyone claiming we should have property taxes just because the other cool kids do. The benefits of a sustainable taxation system are rather more compelling.

    Search this thread, the proof is out there.


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    #620
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Zebra3 wrote: »
    A sustainable taxation system is to be lauded, however people aren't idiots.

    The scum who destroyed this country are still being rewarded from our taxes and our taxes are paying private gambling debts.

    We need a sustainable taxation system, but it must go hand in hand with sensible spending of our taxes.

    I'll refer you to the graph I posted earlier - the bank debt is only a small portion of our overhead. I'll also point out that the only lenders prepared to keep the country financed were very clear on which gambling debts we had to cover. Rock and a hard place for whoever happens to be governing this country.


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    #621
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    donegal_road wrote: »
    would it be fair to say that very many people now, do not trust the government, given their failure to deliver on their pre-election promises, and the very poor handling of an array of other issues.

    How can they be trusted to implement the new property tax system in a fair and effective way?

    Your alternative to this would be what exactly? A FF-led coalition government? Would that reassure you?


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    #622
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    SamHall wrote: »
    I'll take my chances. I'd rather pay up with penalties when forced to, than pay up meekly, then not get a refund when the coalition collapses.

    No need to be meek - just rationale.



    SamHall wrote: »
    Maybe they'll cut me a deal like Hegarty and Wallace?
    Best of luck with that. Wallace hands over half his Dail salary to the revenue btw - you like the sound of that deal?

    SamHall wrote: »
    When people can afford it.
    If people actually can't afford it, they can defer payment, with interest mind. There's rather more whinging from those who can afford it, but would rather not have to.

    SamHall wrote: »
    Search this thread, the proof is out there.
    Links shouldn't be too difficult for you then?


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    #623
    Zebra3
    Registered Users Posts: 13,857 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    alastair wrote: »
    I'll refer you to the graph I posted earlier - the bank debt is only a small portion of our overhead. I'll also point out that the only lenders prepared to keep the country financed were very clear on which gambling debts we had to cover. Rock and a hard place for whoever happens to be governing this country.

    Your graph has all the credibility of a five year old crayoning something on their first day in school.


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    #624
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Zebra3 wrote: »
    Your graph has all the credibility of a five year old crayoning something on their first day in school.

    If you've any quibble with specifics, just point it out. The figures are accurate.


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    #625
    Rented Mule
    Registered Users Posts: 5,153 ✭✭✭Rented Mule


    schnitzelEater wrote: »
    What's there to be one sided about?

    It's a legal tax, pay it. Simples.

    Last thing we should do is give air time to the soap dodgers.

    A schnitzel eater is in favour of Irish people paying property taxes ??

    Is that you Angela Merkel ??


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    #626
    Zebra3
    Registered Users Posts: 13,857 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    alastair wrote: »
    If you've any quibble with specifics, just point it out. The figures are accurate.

    The source.


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    #627
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Zebra3 wrote: »
    The source.

    Ronan Lyons. Credible economist. No argument with the figures then?


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    #628
    Le_Dieux
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,473 ✭✭✭Le_Dieux


    Zebra3 wrote: »
    A sustainable taxation system is to be lauded, however people aren't idiots.

    The scum who destroyed this country are still being rewarded from our taxes and our taxes are paying private gambling debts.

    We need a sustainable taxation system, but it must go hand in hand with sensible spending of our taxes.

    And herein is the crux of everything that's wrong with politics in this Godforesaken country. Who can trust a bloody politician? We have one who owes the VAT man €2M odd, another who get's his penalty points quashed, and then the one who owes the 2 M quid tells the one who had his points quashed that what he did was wrong??? We have a party leader who sinks his own party members to lickasré his coalition partner? We had a minister for 'finance' who never had a bank account??

    Sensible spending of our taxes? These 'politicians' don't know the meaning of the phrase......oh they do, as long as it suits THEMSELVES!


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    #629
    gowley
    Registered Users Posts: 629 ✭✭✭gowley


    alastair wrote: »
    I take it you're opposed to all manner of taxation on the same basis then? And you're choosing to assert this belief though non-payment of taxes rather than at the ballot box?
    i pay my taxes dont have a choice doesnt mean i agree with it though. cant believe you have so many replies on this thread. hope my taxes arent paying for you to defend the property tax on public forums


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    #630
    Le_Dieux
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,473 ✭✭✭Le_Dieux


    alastair wrote: »
    I'll refer you to the graph I posted earlier - the bank debt is only a small portion of our overhead. I'll also point out that the only lenders prepared to keep the country financed were very clear on which gambling debts we had to cover. Rock and a hard place for whoever happens to be governing this country.

    Alastair...or can I now call You Mick ( short for michael noonan)? I despise Your thoughts, indeed find them arrogant and repulsive in the extreme.

    HOWEVER, I also respect You for at least having the balls to lay Your cards on the table. Over this thread and the last 1 & half thread on the HHC ( which I was following) I have noticed a LOT of 'thanks' for the PRO posts by madcon.

    Really, isn't it time madcon, YOU made a statement? I don't know how long you are on boards, but you have mailed a HUGE number of posts so far...FOUR, and ALL on basketball. I am not denyign You the right to do this, but surely, if you are endorsing the yes ministers, it would be the decent thing to at least lay YOUR cards on the table.


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    #631
    Le_Dieux
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,473 ✭✭✭Le_Dieux


    Rented Mule wrote: »
    A schnitzel eater is in favour of Irish people paying property taxes ??

    Is that you Angela Merkel ??

    You could be right RM, but I have never heard the Frau sprekken Engels....can she?:-)


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