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RTE & the property tax

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    #632
    donegal_road
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,281 ✭✭✭donegal_road


    alastair wrote: »
    Your alternative to this would be what exactly? A FF-led coalition government? Would that reassure you?

    I wasn't suggesting an alternative, I was only saying that there is a large amount of people angry and distrustful of the Irish government due to their poor performance in office so far, and could this government be trusted to deliver and implement the property tax system effectively..

    Maybe you could suggest an alternative?


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    #633
    Zebra3
    Registered Users Posts: 13,857 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    alastair wrote: »
    Ronan Lyons. Credible economist. No argument with the figures then?

    Here's a figure for you. One-third of our national debt is due to the failure of private banks. That has a massive effect on our economy.

    http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/colm-mccarthy-this-burden-of-bank-debt-is-simply-not-sustainable-26833432.html


    Ireland's ratio of debt to GDP is expected to hit about 120 per cent in a few years' time. Roughly one-third of the total will be due to bank-rescue costs.

    If these were not a factor, the accumulated budget deficits -- the normal source of debt -- would total about 80 per cent of GDP, a common figure in the EU and a level that should be sustainable. It is the extra 40 per cent deriving from the rescue of bank creditors that has pushed the total into the red zone and destroyed the credit-worthiness of the Irish Exchequer. Even the huge Irish deficits of recent years have not been enough to destroy credit-worthiness on their own because the initial debt level when the crisis struck in 2008 was low.


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    #634
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    donegal_road wrote: »
    I wasn't suggesting an alternative, I was only saying that there is a large amount of people angry and distrustful of the Irish government due to their poor performance in office so far, and could this government be trusted to deliver and implement the property tax system effectively..

    Maybe you could suggest an alternative?

    There is no alternative to a duely elected government. I didn't vote (as a first preference in any case) for either of the government parties, and I certainly have no interest in voting for a FF candidate, but our elected representatives can only play the hand they're dealt, and I think this bunch are doing a better job (all faults acknowledged) than the last lot managed. The property tax will be adminstered by the revenue in any case, not politicians, and the spending of the taxation will be overseen by local authorities, not the government.

    tbh it sounds like a pretty weak excuse for not paying your taxes (I don't like the job they're doing).


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    #635
    gowley
    Registered Users Posts: 629 ✭✭✭gowley


    Le_Dieux wrote: »
    Alastair...or can I now call You Mick ( short for michael noonan)? I despise Your thoughts, indeed find them arrogant and repulsive in the extreme.

    HOWEVER, I also respect You for at least having the balls to lay Your cards on the table. Over this thread and the last 1 & half thread on the HHC ( which I was following) I have noticed a LOT of 'thanks' for the PRO posts by madcon.

    Really, isn't it time madcon, YOU made a statement? I don't know how long you are on boards, but you have mailed a HUGE number of posts so far...FOUR, and ALL on basketball. I am not denyign You the right to do this, but surely, if you are endorsing the yes ministers, it would be the decent thing to at least lay YOUR cards on the table.
    i think its more like phil hogan. noonan has a bit of personality about where as this lad is a bully and very crass. doesnt except anyone elses opinion just mocks them.


  • Options
    #636
    dxhound2005
    Registered Users Posts: 20,780 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    Le_Dieux wrote: »
    He's not alone here Gowley....we have either dv or phoebus ( take your pickk on who he.she is depending on which thread we are on), then we have MaryAnne (still trying to work out if this person is male or female:-)), dx from Dundalk ( who could be anyone from anwhere) and I am sure there are more....sorry, my head ain't the clearest after celebrating #20 last night

    Champions!!!:D
    Le_Dieux wrote: »
    Alastair...or can I now call You Mick ( short for michael noonan)? I despise Your thoughts, indeed find them arrogant and repulsive in the extreme.

    HOWEVER, I also respect You for at least having the balls to lay Your cards on the table. Over this thread and the last 1 & half thread on the HHC ( which I was following) I have noticed a LOT of 'thanks' for the PRO posts by madcon.

    Really, isn't it time madcon, YOU made a statement? I don't know how long you are on boards, but you have mailed a HUGE number of posts so far...FOUR, and ALL on basketball. I am not denyign You the right to do this, but surely, if you are endorsing the yes ministers, it would be the decent thing to at least lay YOUR cards on the table.

    You should get on to the mods and ask them to force him/her to post something. And get them to tell you what you want to know about me and the others. Our local (yes I'm in Dundalk) anti LPT professional protestors are not so interested in hearing any views from the other side. After their famous victory against Joan Burton they are planning the same for the Taoiseach this week.

    http://www.dundalkdemocrat.ie/news/local/group-plan-to-sting-kenny-visit-1-5026667

    If any of that lot ever get into power I fear for free speech in this country.


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    #637
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Zebra3 wrote: »
    Here's a figure for you. One-third of our national debt is due to the failure of private banks. That has a massive effect on our economy.

    Servicing the banking bailout accounts for around 5% of all our our tax outgoings. Just running the everyday aspects of the state and the two thirds of national debt that's got nothing to do with banks, warrants the attention that 95% of any problem deserves. Again - the only people prepared to lend us money to keep the show running stipulated that we needed to pay for the majority of whole banking debacle - it's not as if we had any choice at that point.


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    #638
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    gowley wrote: »
    i think its more like phil hogan. noonan has a bit of personality about where as this lad is a bully and very crass. doesnt except anyone elses opinion just mocks them.

    Some posts are just deserving of mockery. Like the nonsense of pretending we don't know where the property tax is allocated to (through well publicised and debated legislation!).


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    #639
    Banjo String
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,380 ✭✭✭✭Banjo String


    alastair wrote: »
    No need to be meek - just rationale.

    I'm being rationale. If they want their lpt they can refund me the 20 odd thousand I have already paid on stamp duty in 06.

    They may indeed take it by force but that will take time, lots of time. I can afford to sit it out and see how things go. (Just like you and the poll tax)



    alastair wrote: »
    Best of luck with that. Wallace hands over half his Dail salary to the revenue btw - you like the sound of that deal?

    Tbh it sounds like a good deal to me. I'll gladly take €2 million in return for half of my salary.

    I should have that amount paid back in 40-50 years. :cool:

    alastair wrote: »
    If people actually can't afford it, they can defer payment, with interest mind. There's rather more whinging from those who can afford it, but would rather not have to.

    There are certain conditions attached to the deferral option. Not open to just anyone.

    alastair wrote: »
    Links shouldn't be too difficult for you then?

    Like revenue, I'm not doing your work for you.
    Search function is easy to use on this site.


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    #640
    Banjo String
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,380 ✭✭✭✭Banjo String


    dxhound2005 wrote: »
    http://www.dundalkdemocrat.ie/news/local/group-plan-to-sting-kenny-visit-1-5026667

    If any of that lot ever get into power I fear for free speech in this country.

    I fear for it anyway dxhound.

    We essentially have no free speech in the political parties Thanks to the whip system.

    Then we had a few FG members wishing to censor the net after Shane McEntees suicide, regrettable as that was, the man was obviously suicidal anyway.


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    #641
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    SamHall wrote: »
    I'm being rationale. If they want their lpt they can refund me the 20 odd thousand I have already paid on stamp duty in 06.
    I'm guessing you didn't get that motor tax rebate based on the VRT you paid? So why is this any different?
    SamHall wrote: »
    They may indeed take it by force but that will take time, lots of time. I can afford to sit it out and see how things go. (Just like you and the poll tax)
    If you can afford the tax plus penalties than you can afford to pay your taxes without any of this bluster.
    SamHall wrote: »
    Tbh it sounds like a good deal to me. I'll gladly take €2 million in return for half of my salary.

    I should have that amount paid back in 40-50 years. :cool:
    It's a pretty bad state of affairs when you have to compare yourself with the bigger tax cheats to cheer yourself up.

    SamHall wrote: »
    There are certain conditions attached to the deferral option. Not open to just anyone.
    Yeah - you have to genuinely not afford it - a position most of the whingers are not actually in.

    SamHall wrote: »
    Like revenue, I'm not doing your work for you.
    Search function is easy to use on this site.
    It's your proposition - why would I look for something that I know isn't actually the case?


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    #642
    Banjo String
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,380 ✭✭✭✭Banjo String


    alastair wrote: »
    Some posts are just deserving of mockery. Like the nonsense of pretending we don't know where the property tax is allocated to (through well publicised and debated legislation!).
    FINANCE Minister Michael Noonan has said he is unable to "categorically" deny that taxpayers' money was used to prop up pensions of "disgraced senior bankers" in State-owned banks AIB and IBRC (the former Anglo Irish Bank).

    Only a week after his department strongly insisted that no State money went into funding the €1.1bn AIB pension bailout, Mr Noonan has conceded that it is very likely that taxpayers' money has "indirectly" been used to prop up pension funds in State-covered and State-owned banks.

    The revelation has brought stinging criticism from within his own party and from the opposition, which has called on the minister to make a full disclosure as to the extent of how taxpayers' money has been used.

    http://www.ifg.ie/content/media-and-news/industry-news/12-11-18/Banker_pensions_are_indirectly_funded_by_taxes.aspx

    Indirectly.

    Reminds me when Clinton denied having a fling with Monica.

    Few days afterwards. ...........


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    #643
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    SamHall wrote: »
    http://www.ifg.ie/content/media-and-news/industry-news/12-11-18/Banker_pensions_are_indirectly_funded_by_taxes.aspx

    Indirectly.

    Reminds me when Clinton denied having a fling with Monica.

    Few days afterwards. ...........

    and what has any of that got to do with property taxes?


  • Options
    #644
    Hootanany
    Registered Users Posts: 5,477 ✭✭✭Hootanany


    alastair wrote: »
    and what has any of that got to do with property taxes?



    Lying Barstewards that's what


  • Options
    #645
    darkhorse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,274 ✭✭✭darkhorse


    alastair wrote: »
    tbh it sounds like a pretty weak excuse for not paying your taxes (I don't like the job they're doing).

    I guess ya have something here, alastair. Perhaps we should just go with Enda Kenny's excuse, immoral and unjust.


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    #646
    gowley
    Registered Users Posts: 629 ✭✭✭gowley


    alastair wrote: »
    and what has any of that got to do with property taxes?
    i think you should all ignore this thread now. clearly alastair (mick , phil) has an agenda. just ignore his posts because hes only interested in shoving his opinion down peoples throats


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    #647
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Hootanany wrote: »
    Lying Barstewards that's what

    ehh.. Taxes allocated to banks spent by banks on unsavoury bonuses etc.

    vs

    Taxes legally earmarked by legislation for the sole funding of local authorities, to be spent on whatever unsavoury stuff they deem appropriate.


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    #648
    Banjo String
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,380 ✭✭✭✭Banjo String


    alastair wrote: »
    I'm guessing you didn't get that motor tax rebate based on the VRT you paid? So why is this any different?

    I never paid VRT. Please don't go down the whole motor tax debate its been done to death, usually with the pro side being torn to shreds.

    alastair wrote: »
    If you can afford the tax plus penalties than you can afford to pay your taxes without any of this bluster.

    I can afford to pay the tax with/without penalties.

    I could also afford to go out tonight and pay my neighbours car loan for him, but I still don't see the sense in paying someone's debts for them.

    I could go out and buy heroin tonight, I could afford that too. That'd be morally wrong, unjust and unfair on my family though.

    I've never claimed I couldn't afford it.

    I oppose it. (Like you opposed a certain tax you never paid)
    alastair wrote: »

    It's a pretty bad state of affairs when you have to compare yourself with the bigger tax cheats to cheer yourself up.

    I didn't realise I compared myself to anyone else other than you, we both opposed, and therfore refused to pay a tax. Me and you, two peas in a pod.

    alastair wrote: »
    Yeah - you have to genuinely not afford it - a position most of the whingers are not actually in.
    Where did I claim I couldn't afford it?
    alastair wrote: »
    It's your proposition - why would I look for something that I know isn't actually the case?
    Wrong again. (It's not your day today)


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    #649
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    gowley wrote: »
    i think you should all ignore this thread now. clearly alastair (mick , phil) has an agenda. just ignore his posts because hes only interested in shoving his opinion down peoples throats

    Or maybe you can't bring yourself to acknowledge the facts of the property tax legislation and would rather play a distraction game, eh?


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    #650
    dxhound2005
    Registered Users Posts: 20,780 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    alastair wrote: »
    and what has any of that got to do with property taxes?

    I was going to categorise that one as Reason Number 863 for not paying HHC/LPT. We have had everything from what EK said in 1994 to The Nazis and Slavery. But it actually belongs under Reason Number 1, The Bankers. Oh well, new ones are getting a bit thin on the ground but I'm sure we will see something soon enough.


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    #651
    Banjo String
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,380 ✭✭✭✭Banjo String


    alastair wrote: »
    and what has any of that got to do with property taxes?

    Property tax will be funded by tax payers money.

    You're an intelligent soul Alastair. What's with the silly question?


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    #652
    Le_Dieux
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,473 ✭✭✭Le_Dieux


    alastair wrote: »
    ehh.. Taxes allocated to banks spent by banks on unsavoury bonuses etc.

    vs

    Taxes legally earmarked by legislation for the sole funding of local authorities, to be spent on whatever unsavoury stuff they deem appropriate.[/QUOTE]

    Please Alastair/Mick/BFP, where is Your proof of this?


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    #653
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    SamHall wrote: »
    I never paid VRT. Please don't go down the whole motor tax debate its been done to death, usually with the pro side being torn to shreds.
    So you don't drive. You are familiar with the scenario of one tax not having any impact on another though?


    SamHall wrote: »
    I can afford to pay the tax with/without penalties.

    I could also afford to go out tonight and pay my neighbours car loan for him, but I still don't see the sense in paying someone's debts for them.
    You think your property taxes are equivalent paying someone elses debts, or a smack habit (why no nazi references while your at it)?


    SamHall wrote: »
    I've never claimed I couldn't afford it.
    who said otherwise?
    SamHall wrote: »
    I oppose it. (Like you opposed a certain tax you never paid)
    Except you con yourself into believing you'll get away without paying it (foolishly).
    SamHall wrote: »
    alastair wrote: »
    It's a pretty bad state of affairs when you have to compare yourself with the bigger tax cheats to cheer yourself up.
    .

    SamHall wrote: »
    I didn't realise I compared myself to anyone else other than you, we both opposed Ave therfore refused to pay a tax. Me and you, two peas in a pod.
    You brought the man into the conversation and suggested you'd like his arrangement? no?

    SamHall wrote: »
    Where did I claim I couldn't afford it?
    Who said otherwise? Not me for sure.
    SamHall wrote: »
    Wrong again. (It's not your day today)
    It wasn't your proposition? Sure looked like it.


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    #654
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Le_Dieux wrote: »
    alastair wrote: »
    ehh.. Taxes allocated to banks spent by banks on unsavoury bonuses etc.

    vs

    Taxes legally earmarked by legislation for the sole funding of local authorities, to be spent on whatever unsavoury stuff they deem appropriate.[/QUOTE]

    Please Alastair/Mick/BFP, where is Your proof of this?

    The property tax legislation - freely available to view online and passed into law.


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    #655
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    SamHall wrote: »
    Property tax will be funded by tax payers money.

    You're an intelligent soul Alastair. What's with the silly question?

    All taxes are publically funded. That doesn't mean property taxes have any crossover with taxes allocated to banks. Doesn't really require much intelligence tbh.


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    #656
    Banjo String
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,380 ✭✭✭✭Banjo String


    alastair wrote: »
    Soyou don't drive. You are familiar with the scenario of one tax not having any impact on another though?

    I've never bought a car liable for VRT. And had I off, I'd be pretty annoyed if they then replaced vrt with an extra tax placed on the car to make it legal to own it.




    alastair wrote: »
    You think your property taxes are equivalent paying someone elses debts, or a smack habit (why no nazi references while your at it)?

    I've received no bail out. I'm not running a deficit.

    alastair wrote: »
    who said otherwise?

    Just pointing out that I'm not taking my stance on a financial decision.
    alastair wrote: »
    Except you con yourself into believing you'll get away without paying it (foolishly).

    I've said I'd never pay voluntary.

    I've said they may take it forcibly, but I'm prepared to sit it out for years if need be. What's difficult to understand about that.?



    alastair wrote: »
    You brought the man into the conversation and suggested you'd like his arrangement? no?
    I merely said that with all the threats about revenue, maybe they'd make me a deal like Wallace or Hegarty.

    You asked if I'd like Wallace' arrangement..... I replied yeah. That's a good deal.

    alastair wrote: »
    Who said otherwise? Not me for sure

    Answered above already
    alastair wrote: »
    It wasn't your proposition? Sure looked like it.
    You asked for the link.

    I said fetch it yourself


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    #657
    darkhorse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,274 ✭✭✭darkhorse


    alastair wrote: »
    Ronan Lyons. Credible economist.

    Is that the guy that advised in favour of a SV tax?


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    #658
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    SamHall wrote: »
    I've never bought a car liable for VRT. And had I off, I'd be pretty annoyed if they then replaced vrt with an extra tax placed on the car to make it legal to own it.
    So, you've never bought a new car. Again - you're aware that one tax need not have any impact on another. Motor tax isn't a substitute for VRT - it's a different tax. Property tax is not a substitute for stamp duty - which exists alongside property taxation.

    SamHall wrote: »
    I've received no bail out. I'm not running a deficit.
    Indeed - none of those issues have anything to do with the tax or your unwillingness to pay it. Just more distractions.


    SamHall wrote: »
    Just pointing out that I'm not taking my stance on a financial decision.
    Delighted to hear it.

    SamHall wrote: »
    I've said I'd never pay voluntary.

    I've said they may take it forcibly, but I'm prepared to sit it out for years if need be. What's difficult to understand about that.?
    Nothing difficult about it - it's just that there won't be any 'years waiting'. The revenue will take it at source as they are empowered to do.
    SamHall wrote: »
    You asked for the link.

    I said fetch it yourself
    The link to support your proposition - the one I said was a red herring of your creation? I'm not sure where either you or I would find such a fiction.


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    #659
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    darkhorse wrote: »
    Is that the guy that advised in favour of a SV tax?

    That's the fellow.


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    #660
    Slick50
    Registered Users Posts: 1,062 ✭✭✭Slick50


    alastair wrote: »
    I don't see anyone claiming we should have property taxes just because the other cool kids do.
    alastair wrote: »
    The link to support your proposition - the one I said was a red herring of your creation? I'm not sure where either you or I would find such a fiction.

    You can't seriously be trying to make out you haven't seen any other post, citing other countries having LPT's as justification for our introducing one. You've been championing this cause so long now, in enough threads, that you have to have seen them.

    That's about as believable as DX telling us he hasn't seen Enda's qoute from 1994.


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    #661
    gowley
    Registered Users Posts: 629 ✭✭✭gowley


    Slick50 wrote: »
    You can't seriously be trying to make out you haven't seen any other post, citing other countries having LPT's as justification for our introducing one. You've been championing this cause so long now, in enough threads, that you have to have seen them.

    That's about as believable as DX telling us he hasn't seen Enda's qoute from 1994.
    ahhh no why would you encourage him. just ignore the government spin doctor and stop giving him a platform to promote his agenda. everyone else has had the sense to ignore him for the last few hours


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