RTE & the property tax

alastair

Zebra3 wrote: »

And the money that previously funded local services from other forms of taxations goes to pay the banks' debts.

Gullible is right.

Where your taxes go:

http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/6826/taxbill.jpg

gowley

donegal_road wrote: »

voted in parties that have u-turned on their position on property tax,

you could add in all labours tesco type adverts about not cutting child benefit etc to that. they all tell a bunch of lies in opposition and once they get in and secure their big fat pensions and salaries and parachute payments the dont give a f*&^ about the ordinary people

alastair

gowley wrote: »

its often quoted that the uk has a property tax. this pays for free refuse collection, free health care , free dental care , free school books etc etc. the difference is in ireland it is going to pay back the loans we owe that were caused by the incompetnce of the government and the highly paid bankers and developers. it is progressive if done in the right way. here its just another tax to bail out the muppets

Sure - we get a fraction of the services offered by the UK system - for our fraction of what they pay. Not particularly surprising. The property tax is ringfenced for local authority services however - none goes to the banks. Even if you just consider it a shuffling of taxation and ignore the ringfenced aspect, the graph above shows the breakdown of where your taxes go - remove the banks share on the left and you're merely left with the right hand bar to cover. Our revenue problems are not primarily to do with the banks.

alastair

donegal_road wrote: »

voted in parties that have u-turned on their position on property tax,

You're really still pushing Enda's 1994 thoughts? Nothing else changed in politics or the national economy since 1994? FG policy in 2011 was for local authorities to take on responsibility for residential property taxation (and thus avoid central government levying the same awkward tax) - but given the hames that the local authorities made of the household charge, it's not surprising that the revenue were wheeled out to do their job for them. Labour were at least open about a need for residential property taxation, and FF had already agreed to introducing the same.

gowley

alastair wrote: »

Sure - we get a fraction of the services offered by the UK system - for our fraction of what they pay. Not particularly surprising. The property tax is ringfenced for local authority services however - none goes to the banks. Even if you just consider it a shuffling of taxation and ignore the ringfenced aspect, the graph above shows the breakdown of where your taxes go - remove the banks share on the left and you're merely left with the right hand bar to cover. Our revenue problems are not primarily to do with the banks.

i never said it was solely to do with banks. i am merely pointing out that as you correctly said property tax is a progressive tax in most countries. however we are not a progressive country. how do you know where the tax is going to go when the money has not yet been collected or distributed, if you believe the government that it is ringfenced for local authorities you have more faith in them than i do. i am merely pointing out that with all the tax prsi and usc we are paying a property tax should give us something tangible like in the uk

gowley

does anyone else have a feeling that alastair is working as a spin doctor for one of the government parties

darkhorse

alastair wrote: »

1) The rest of the civilized world would like to know why you're calling them masochists.
2) Property tax is a progressive system of taxation, and impacts less on job/wealth creation than income taxes do.

1) I don't remember making any reference to the rest of the civilized world.

2) Property tax, or tax on the family home, is an immoral, unjust and unfair tax, but don't just take my word,
Fianna Fail’s proposal, now endorsed by the Labour Party, to introduce by
2014 an annual, recurring residential property tax on the family home is unfair. (from fine gael manifesto, 2011).. You say above that it impacts less on job/wealth creation than income taxes do. But, if a million plus households is gonna have a few hundred euro's taken from them annually, that'a few hundred million that's not going to be spent in the economy, so yes, its going to have a very big impact on jobs, job losses.

dxhound2005

gowley wrote: »

its often quoted that the uk has a property tax. this pays for free refuse collection, free health care , free dental care , free school books etc etc. the difference is in ireland it is going to pay back the loans we owe that were caused by the incompetnce of the government and the highly paid bankers and developers. it is progressive if done in the right way. here its just another tax to bail out the muppets

It is rarely quoted that their property tax pays only for a small part of services. Most of the money for local spending comes from central government grants which taxpayers (mostly the same ones paying property tax) fund through income tax, VAT etc. So for their average £1200 they don't get all those things you said, just a small proportion. It is also less often quoted that England and Wales has two separate charges for water and sewerage services over and above their property taxes.

The UK is paying back loans as well.

http://www.debtbombshell.com/

alastair

gowley wrote: »

i never said it was solely to do with banks.

No, you said:

the difference is in ireland it is going to pay back the loans we owe that were caused by the incompetnce of the government and the highly paid bankers and developers.

Which isn't a whole lot different, is it?

gowley wrote: »

i am merely pointing out that as you correctly said property tax is a progressive tax in most countries. however we are not a progressive country. how do you know where the tax is going to go when the money has not yet been collected or distributed, if you believe the government that it is ringfenced for local authorities you have more faith in them than i do. i am merely pointing out that with all the tax prsi and usc we are paying a property tax should give us something tangible like in the uk

We know the money is going 100% to local authority funding because we have the legislation that makes that fact crystal clear and legally binding.

We aren't paying enough tax to keep the country going without ongoing loans from outside the state, so where tangible additional benefits are supposed to come from is a bit of a head-scratcher. No-one is pretending we're doing anything but trying to keep our head above the water, taxation-wise.

darkhorse

alastair wrote: »

The deficit is a reality.

So is a few hundred thousand unemployed.

alastair

gowley wrote: »

does anyone else have a feeling that alastair is working as a spin doctor for one of the government parties

Take off the tinfoil hat - you'll feel much better for it.

alastair

darkhorse wrote: »

So is a few hundred thousand unemployed.

What do you think the employment prospects are for a state that runs out of lenders to keep the country going might be? There's just no means of sustaining the deficit we're running, and the only way to protect people's livelihoods is to get back to a sustainable economy.

gowley

alastair wrote: »

No, you said:

Which isn't a whole lot different, is it?


We know the money is going 100% to local authority funding because we have the legislation that makes that fact crystal clear and legally binding.

We aren't paying enough tax to keep the country going without ongoing loans from outside the state, so where tangible additional benefits are supposed to come from is a bit of a head-scratcher. No-one is pretending we're doing anything but trying to keep our head above the water, taxation-wise.

we are not paying enough tax because the government cant run the country properly. if you think a minister of health who has appeared in stubbs gazzette and has severe financial problems of his own should be running our health service which is over budget and in dissary thats fair enough. all im saying is that i dont believe that the people we have running the country are capable and the problems we have wont go away just because we have more taxes and health and welfare are still a cash cow

alastair

darkhorse wrote: »

1) I don't remember making any reference to the rest of the civilized world.

They would be the people with extant residential property taxation systems?

alastair

gowley wrote: »

we are not paying enough tax because the government cant run the country properly. if you think a minister of health who has appeared in stubbs gazzette and has severe financial problems of his own should be running our health service which is over budget and in dissary thats fair enough. all im saying is that i dont believe that the people we have running the country are capable and the problems we have wont go away just because we have more taxes and health and welfare are still a cash cow

I take it you're opposed to all manner of taxation on the same basis then? And you're choosing to assert this belief though non-payment of taxes rather than at the ballot box?

darkhorse

alastair wrote: »

but given the hames that the local authorities made of the household charge, it's not surprising that the revenue were wheeled out to do their job for them.

It would make one wonder why they did'nt wheel out the revenue to collect the developers levy in a lot of counties, since the local authorities could'nt be arsed.
By the way, welcome back.

darkhorse

alastair wrote: »

They would be the people with extant residential property taxation systems?

Whom I referred to, where?

darkhorse

alastair wrote: »

What do you think the employment prospects are for a state that runs out of lenders to keep the country going might be?

The very same as what I thought this time last year, which I projected via the computer screen, to your good self, in which I said, "put the population back to work, and then look at austerity". But its really all academic now, as the money that was taken away from us in the last few budgets, instead of being used for growth and stimulus, lets just say, we will never see any of it, unless, of course, you should happen to be a bondholder.

Le_Dieux

gowley wrote: »

does anyone else have a feeling that alastair is working as a spin doctor for one of the government parties

He's not alone here Gowley....we have either dv or phoebus ( take your pickk on who he.she is depending on which thread we are on), then we have MaryAnne (still trying to work out if this person is male or female:-)), dx from Dundalk ( who could be anyone from anwhere) and I am sure there are more....sorry, my head ain't the clearest after celebrating #20 last night

Champions!!!:D

Le_Dieux

alastair wrote: »

What do you think the employment prospects are for a state that runs out of lenders to keep the country going might be? There's just no means of sustaining the deficit we're running, and the only way to protect people's livelihoods is to get back to a sustainable economy.

What do YOU think of a state that has drawn every single cent from it's electorate but REFUSES to increase the tax on the wealthy? Or who has a minister running the concerned govt office threatening the people who won't/can't pay, yet he's doing the EXACT SAME THING in Portugal?

Le_Dieux

alastair wrote: »

I take it you're opposed to all manner of taxation on the same basis then? And you're choosing to assert this belief though non-payment of taxes rather than at the ballot box?

Holy shít, MORE of the pro brigade being presumptious!!!

Banjo String

alastair wrote: »

Empathy usually takes a backseat to necessity. The deficit is a reality, and a pressing one - regardless of how nasty the medicine might taste. Not paying your taxes is indeed unlawful - no harm in clarifying that fact. Those who con themselves that they can wish it (the property tax) away are on a fool's errand, and all of those who claim that they've a formula for avoiding eventual payment are peddling snakeoil.

So, just to be clear then.

You are a 'criminal' by your own definition.

Banjo String

alastair wrote: »

The rest of the civilized world would like to know why you're calling them masochists. Property tax is a progressive system of taxation, and impacts less on job/wealth creation than income taxes do - so it seems like a pretty sensible component of any sustainable revenue model.

Aside from that - it's pure awful stuff altogether!

I'd like to know why the govt flat out refuses to raise corporation tax to match most of the masochists in the civilised world?

That would eliminate the need for a property tax of they raised, or even half arsed implemented the corporation tax already in place.

alastair wrote: »

Maybe you hadn't noticed but the electorate voted in parties that supported property taxation as part of their electoral manifestos in a free and fair election?

We had a residential property tax in the form of rates until 1977. We had another residential property tax - applicable only to high income households, from '83 to '97.

Labour did (who are on the verge of leaving govt)
FG didn't.

Who got the bigger share of the vote?

Banjo String

dxhound2005 wrote: »

It is rarely quoted that their property tax pays only for a small part of services. Most of the money for local spending comes from central government grants which taxpayers (mostly the same ones paying property tax) fund through income tax, VAT etc. So for their average £1200 they don't get all those things you said, just a small proportion. It is also less often quoted that England and Wales has two separate charges for water and sewerage services over and above their property taxes.

The UK is paying back loans as well.

http://www.debtbombshell.com/

Same as our system more or less.

Dress it up how you like. We still get nothing like the services they enjoy in the UK.

alastair

darkhorse wrote: »

The very same as what I thought this time last year, which I projected via the computer screen, to your good self, in which I said, "put the population back to work, and then look at austerity". But its really all academic now, as the money that was taken away from us in the last few budgets, instead of being used for growth and stimulus, lets just say, we will never see any of it, unless, of course, you should happen to be a bondholder.

If you've a formula for massive job creation that doesn't involve a consequent increase on lending/bailout overhead, then I'm sure everyone in government would be delighted to hear it. Otherwise there's the difficulty in who you actually borrow from.

alastair

Le_Dieux wrote: »

What do YOU think of a state that has drawn every single cent from it's electorate but REFUSES to increase the tax on the wealthy? Or who has a minister running the concerned govt office threatening the people who won't/can't pay, yet he's doing the EXACT SAME THING in Portugal?

Except that the rich have had their taxes increased. And Hogan has paid all his taxes in Portugal as far as I'm aware. His row with a property management agency over adherence to a contract has nothing to do with taxation.

alastair

Le_Dieux wrote: »

Holy shít, MORE of the pro brigade being presumptious!!!

It's a pair of questions.

alastair

SamHall wrote: »

So, just to be clear then.

You are a 'criminal' by your own definition.

No. I don't owe any taxes - here or elsewhere.

alastair

SamHall wrote: »

I'd like to know why the govt flat out refuses to raise corporation tax to match most of the masochists in the civilised world?

That would eliminate the need for a property tax of they raised, or even half arsed implemented the corporation tax already in place.

Ireland is rather more exposed to FDI revenues than most countries. It's not surprising they don't want to jeopardise the golden goose.

SamHall wrote: »

Labour did (who are on the verge of leaving govt)
FG didn't.

Who got the bigger share of the vote?

FG had a policy that included property taxation at local authority level. Their formula was supposedly to promote land value levys, but it's still a property tax. Labour aren't leaving the govt any time soon - there's nothing but the wilderness years once this coalition ends - they won't rush into that.

Banjo String

alastair wrote: »

No. I don't owe any taxes - here or elsewhere.

But you refused to pay a poll tax.