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Smidge

What happened to that lad was tragic to say the least.
Were these guys who killed him "criminal virgins"? Highly doubt it.
I would bet the farm on it that these murderers had tormented a lot of people before this ever happened. I would wager that these black-guards had spent the majority of their young life doing every sort of "anti-social" act imaginable.
And what was the result?
The gruesome murder of a young man on his way to work.
Bit late for the pitch forks and mob methinks.

My point is, coming from one of the toughest areas of Dublin, I have watched people commit criminal act after criminal act and get away with it. NO-ONE who does anything like this is a first timer. They were well on the Guardai's radar.

If these guys(and hundreds more roaming the cities of this country) were reprimanded for "lesser" crimes and not discharged from court, having been strongly deterred from crime by just punishment, I firmly believe that poor lad would be still alive.

deco nate

i just think they should get real time,not
just bs 7-10.
at the end of it all was a man walking to
work at 4am.doin no one harm and he
lost his life....at 4am......
not drunk...livin his life savin a few quid....
and now his family have lost a good,son,brother..etc
and yet we stiil have this do do-gooder's bs.

we need to give real sentence to these scum.

end of.

prinz

Millicent wrote: »

Anger and retribution is easy; change and rehab is not.

Change and rehab should benefit those still yet to go down that road, and those convicted of less serious offences. There's no scope whatsoever to take an easy stance on these murderers IMO.

alphabeat

outsourcing is the answer

outsource IT - to India

outsource scum filth criminals - to a russian or mexican jail

id say theyd have holes like the channell tunnell on them after that


why cant we do this , we do it with rubbish ?

saa

prinz wrote: »

It's not off topic in so far as the two up for manslaughter will be back on the streets in the not so distant future and who do you think is going to pay their way in life? The same hardworking law abiding men and women, just like their murder victim. I have no problem with people on welfare support who need it and appreciate it. I have major problems with our state subsidising murderers and scumbags on the tab of the people the state should be protecting.

It is a stretch or at least the more pressing concern is why the hell did they do this not why the hell is the state giving them benefits the former is much more unsettling, its hard to really get into the wider issue of welfare based on one specific murder case, on one hand they are people who are entitled to shelter and food so welfare is more about than how they appreciate it regulating what they deserve, I think being a criminal should strike you off but then they turn to crime further to funding to their lifestyle but they probably do that anyway so I suppose the state needs to make it clear if you commit a violent crime you loose your rights that society should honour because you dropped your responsibilities. And if the state won't subsidise criminals then that means no prisons, no matter how basic they are they are still costly so the more crimes your perpetrate the more that gets spent on you, its the system's attitude to criminals that has to change first.

northern lights

old hippy wrote: »

I'm not saying the crime should go unpunished. I'm not saying the perpetrator is an angel.

But the knee jerkery here is astounding.

Perhaps we should be taking a closer look at what drives people to commit such horrific acts and behave in such an ugly fashion towards their fellow human beings?

Only then can we begin to judge. Not just them but ourselves as well.

No, the 'knee jerkery' as you put it NOT astounding. It's quite simply people espressing their utter disgust and revulsion at what was a heinous crime committed against a totally innoncent man whilst also expressing their utter disbelief in our so called criminal justice system.

We can discuss what drives people to commit these acts till the cows come home but sadly for the victim that doesn't change what these so called 'human beings' did which was to take his life 'just for a buzz'.

So many posters on this thread have already succinctly and eloquently summed up my own thoughts on his murderers and to be honest THAT is what this thread is about so I politely suggest you start a seperate thread in which to discuss where our society had gone so wrong.

acidskiffle

All I know is that if these lads did this to someone I care about I would kill them, whatever the consequences.
The need to serve a proper sentence and never see the light of day again. They don't deserve a chance at rehabilitation and need to be kept away from decent people.
More severe sentences would deter serious crime somewhat at least.

Nodin

prinz wrote: »

All I've advocated on the thread is a life sentence. So how am I in a "circle jerk of mob justice"? Either you are saying a life sentence equates to mob justice or you haven't a clue what you are on about..

No, I'm afraid you spoke far more broadly than that

It's not off topic in so far as the two up for manslaughter will be back on the streets in the not so distant future and who do you think is going to pay their way in life? The same hardworking law abiding men and women, just like their murder victim. I have no problem with people on welfare support who need it and appreciate it. I have major problems with our state subsidising murderers and scumbags on the tab of the people the state should be protecting.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=77793982&postcount=96

...and of course you were unwilling to expand on that and its consequences.

dark crystal

Millicent wrote: »

It can't but at the same time it's useful to get to the root of bad behaviours than to simply retaliate without giving any thought to rehabilitation.

I am in the odd position of having come through the other side of some very bad shit in my past and who can sort of empathises with people who are scummers. I'm not proud of it but I can honestly say that with a few more influences/bad events, I may have ended up going down a very bad road. I'm not a bad person at all but there were times when I honestly could have done someone very bad harm if provoked.

A bad start in life shouldn't be a get out of free jail card but understanding what landed someone in jail in the first place and working to fix that is what we, if we want to be thought of as a society worth having, need to do.

Anger and retribution is easy; change and rehab is not.

I have no problem at all with people receiving councilling and rehabilitation in prison, if they are willing to avail of it.

However, people who commit crimes of extreme violence need to be kept in prison for enough time to protect the innocent members of society who need to be kept safe. In this case, a very long time indeed.

My primary sympathy lies with the victim of crime, not the criminal, I'm afraid.

Millicent

prinz wrote: »

Change and rehab should benefit those still yet to go down that road, and those convicted of less serious offences. There's no scope whatsoever to take an easy stance on these murderers IMO.

I agree that this murder was horrific and cannot say how horrified I am by it. There are parts of it that will stick with me for a long time. It's also one of the few cases I have a distinct recollection if where I was when I heard it, that's how much it affected me. My heart goes out to the poor victim, to his poor brothers and family, and to his poor co-workers who didn't even recognise him after these three were done with him.


That said, you can't just write off someone's life because of an evil they have done. I think these lads should be in jail for a very, very long time. I think our life sentences are far too lax and we fall down on sentencing for so many crimes. There should still be an attempt to rehabilitate these murderers.

When they get out of jail (and they will), I would rather see them skilled, rehabilitated and able to contribute to society rather than going back to their scummy ways because there are no other viable options available to them. I also think these things needed to be looked at logically and less emotionally for the good of all society.

Just my two cents.

prinz

Nodin wrote: »

No, I'm afraid you spoke far more broadly than that.

Er yes, which is why I advocated life in prison. It's a fairly simple concept to grasp, if we as a society are going to be paying for them they should be on the inside of big walls rather than paying for them to be walking the streets as free "men".

http://amarudontv.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/broken-record-765056.jpg

mikom

55 previous convictions and still walking the street so that you can kill a man on his way to work.
The public is being let down by the courts.
No wonder folks have no faith in government.

Still though, the dude that broke into Alan shatters place was caught sharpish........... refused bail as well.

Millicent

dark crystal wrote: »

I have no problem at all with people receiving councilling and rehabilitation in prison, if they are willing to avail of it.

However, people who commit crimes of extreme violence need to be kept in prison for enough time to protect the innocent members of society who need to be kept safe. In this case, a very long time indeed.

My primary sympathy lies with the victim of crime, not the criminal, I'm afraid.

Don't get me wrong--my sympathies are sincerely with the victim here. I just think that there should be greater emphasis on rehabilitation in prison and the opportunity made available for people to redeem themselves.

I do believe prison sentences for serious crimes need to be longer. I just don't believe in all this "lock them up forever"/"let's kill/torture/rape them" stuff that gets spouted on all threads of this nature.

Bullseye1

Unfortunately these people make up a significant proportion of our society. They and their parents have never been held to account. They have been portrayed as victims when in fact they are simply subhuman who know how to play the system. When you have media and politicians defend them things will never change.

Nodin

prinz wrote: »

Er yes, which is why I advocated life in prison. It's a fairly simple concept to grasp, if we as a society are going to be paying for them they should be on the inside of big walls rather than paying for them to be walking the streets as free "men".

http://amarudontv.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/broken-record-765056.jpg

- are you advocating vast and harsh sentences for all crimes, a la the 18th century approach? Which didn't work, rather famously.

"murderers and scumbags" covers a rather wide gamut - far more than the case here. You advocated cutting off any benefits for same, which would mean that a prison sentence would be accompanied by further punishment for the lifetime of the offender. There's little point in trying to be revisionist about it now.

prinz

Nodin wrote: »

"murderers and scumbags" covers a rather wide gamut - far more than the case here..

No I believe that covers the case here rather well. One murderer, two scumbags IIRC. Still edging I see though... might get a rash if you keep that up.

Nodin

prinz wrote: »

No I believe that covers the case here rather well. One murderer, two scumbags IIRC. Still edging I see though... might get a rash if you keep that up.

So you want to tailor all sentences to each individual case and dispense with formal law altogether?

prinz

Nodin wrote: »

So you want to tailor all sentences to each individual case and dispense with formal law altogether?

I'll refer you back about four or five pages and Ministerial discretion on life sentences when you asked that same question.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=77797650&postcount=169

After that you are just busy playing mindgames with yourself, whatever floats your boat I suppose.

Nodin

prinz wrote: »

I'll refer you back about four or five pages and Ministerial discretion on life sentences when you asked that same question. .

I pointed out the problem with that already.

prinz

Nodin wrote: »

I pointed out the problem with that already.

Evans, Shaw, McArthur... all held onto long enough to make sure they weren't a threat any more.

Smidge

I think labelling these guys "Subhuman" "Monsters" "Animals" is detrimental as it somehow makes these people "Other-worldly".
They are not.
They live on your streets, in your town and everyone knows them.
Has seen them, watched them since they were 6 or 8 years old and said "Oh them two, they're gonna end up bad".
As a society we all know of people like this.
Why are we so shocked when they kick someone to death?
Is this the time for outrage?
Now, when the deed is done?
Closed gate after horse has bolted

mikom

mishkalucy wrote: »

Why are we so shocked when they kick someone to death?
Is this the time for outrage?
Now, when the deed is done?
Closed gate after horse has bolted

A horse would be shot.............that's the difference.

Dudess

old hippy wrote: »

Truly horrible crime but the usual dribblings of knackers, scum, amimals etc kind of lessens the impact of the horror allegedly felt here.

Yup, what a terrible state Ireland is in. Racism, neo-Thatcherism and demonising the disenfranchised. All in one merry package.

Yep, the racism in Ireland is like Alabama in the 60s... Oh wait, it isn't - Ireland has some racists, like any country ever.
How do you know they're disenfranchised? What about their behaviour? You're the one bringing background into it,

suicide_circus

For me, a life sentence for these guys is less about punishment or vengeance and more about protecting the rest of us by taking them off the streets.
By committing such an act, they forfeit their right to freedom, they have shown themselves wholey incapable of being part of society and thus should be removed from it.

Smidge

So you advocate shooting the horse after it got out? What about the person who left the gate open? As in my analogy. If you read the whole post you would see that I was saying no point in wondering where these people came from who committed this heinous act, they didn't just fall from the sky.
They had been busy doing other sh*t for years and had gotten away with it
BTW the "Gate" in the analogy was the courts, justice system etc

Nodin

prinz wrote: »

Evans, Shaw, McArthur... all held onto long enough to make sure they weren't a threat any more.

McArthur was known to have committed two murders.

Evans and Shaw were found guilty of a number of serious crimes, and thus theirs and mcarthurs case would not be comparable to this, which is what I was referring to earlier.

suicide_circus

H

mishkalucy wrote: »

I think labelling these guys "Subhuman" "Monsters" "Animals" is detrimental as it somehow makes these people "Other-worldly".
They are not.
They live on your streets, in your town and everyone knows them.
Has seen them, watched them since they were 6 or 8 years old and said "Oh them two, they're gonna end up bad".
As a society we all know of people like this.
Why are we so shocked when they kick someone to death?
Is this the time for outrage?
Now, when the deed is done?
Closed gate after horse has bolted

So, what? People arent allowed to be outraged by senseless murder now?
What about free will? What about personal responsibility? These lads CHOSE to kick this guy to death. Their socio economic background is irrelevant.

charlemont

Hope that dirty animal Martin Morgan and his cousin die in prison, They should never get the chance to enjoy any of life's pleasures again.

mikom

mishkalucy wrote: »

So you advocate shooting the horse after it got out? What about the person who left the gate open? As in my analogy. If you read the whole post you would see that I was saying no point in wondering where these people came from who committed this heinous act, they didn't just fall from the sky.
They had been busy doing other sh*t for years and had gotten away with it
BTW the "Gate" in the analogy was the courts, justice system etc

Read my earlier post in the thread.

prinz

Nodin wrote: »

McArthur was known to have committed two murders..

You wouldn't be advocating we keep people in prison for crimes they were never convicted of now would you?