Skangers on RTE news now

Nodin

Vizzy wrote: »

I'm after reading your post( the one I quoted) again and this seems to be more or less what you are advocating,no ?
during the period of harsh sentencing - including death, torture and exile - there was a higher crime rate.(more lenient sentences ?)

South Africa has no welfare state as such and has a massive murder rate. The US has less of a welfare state than normally associated with a 1st world country and has a murder rate roughly three times that of here. While obviously there are more factors at play, it certainly is a strong one.(better welfare should be provided).

If I am reading this wrong can you advise,thanks

I made more than that post in the thread.

The fact is that harsh sentencing without rehabilitation did not lower the crime rate. Also the idea that cutting off welfare or limiting it would curb crime is not borne out by the numbers.

What I think would be a viable solution, is something along the lines of early intervention, and somewhat stiffer sentencing combined with rehabilitation (mandatory), and freely available educational opportunities. People who make the effort and try to improve themselves get rewarded by being moved to less secure prisons, time off the sentence etc. You don't, you do most of the time.

I also question the level of the bar set for proving insanity in this state, as there's been more than a few offenders who could only be described as "mental" who've been sent to prison rather than a secure hospital.

dougieruggie

Nodin wrote: »

God love your innocence.

Sorry but I've travelled. I was Colombia in the late 90s when the crime rate was still through the roof and the murder rate was one of the highest in the world. You'd get mugged and if you messed with the wrong person you might get shot.

But there wasnt gangs of scum roaming the streets attacking innocent people for fun. I walked into bad areas and got mugged on a couple of occasions. I even witness a gun being pulled. But not once was I attacked for no reason.

Vizzy

Thanks Nodin.

I would broadly agree with your points,although I would place a very "high bar" on the offender proving that they have rehabilitated.
Also would you agree that there are probably some offenders who consider themselves as "mental" and are in secure hospitals,should actually be in the general prison population?

In relation to the offenders in the OP I would find it very hard to believe that they would ever be rehabilitated given what they said themselves about carrying out the crime for "a buzz"

Nodin

Vizzy wrote: »

Thanks Nodin.

I would broadly agree with your points,although I would place a very "high bar" on the offender proving that they have rehabilitated.
Also would you agree that there are probably some offenders who consider themselves as "mental" and are in secure hospitals,should actually be in the general prison population?"

In this country? I doubt it. The idea that people pull some scam and 'get away' with pleading insanity is more a popular media myth than anything borne out by the evidence.

Vizzy wrote: »

In relation to the offenders in the OP I would find it very hard to believe that they would ever be rehabilitated given what they said themselves about carrying out the crime for "a buzz"

I'd lack the knowledge to say whether it was possible or not in those specific instances.

woodoo

Wait till friday when these rats are sentenced. It will be shockingly lenient. 3 years (out in 1 or 2) or so for the first guy. About 6 years (out in 3) for the blonde haired guy and life (=out in 12 years for monster morgan).

Morgan should be facing 40 (=40) and the other 2 should get 15 and 25.

charlemont

woodoo wrote: »

Wait till friday when these rats are sentenced. It will be shockingly lenient. 3 years (out in 1 or 2) or so for the first guy. About 6 years (out in 3) for the blonde haired guy and life (=out in 12 years for monster morgan).

Morgan should be facing 40 (=40) and the other 2 should get 15 and 25.

Morgan's penalty will be Life so he won't be out for at least 18+ years and I'd go so far as to say he may well be kept inside for 25 years or even more depending on his behaviour. People really misunderstand Life sentencing here, Its actually very strict.

MysticalRain

I find it laughable that someone who attacked a random stranger just for the fun of it, and stamped repeated on his head could ever be rehabilitated. Some people are just born psychopaths, and that's all there is to it.

woodoo

MysticalRain wrote: »

I find it laughable that someone who attacked a random stranger just for the fun of it, and stamped repeated on his head could ever be rehabilitated. Some people are just born psychopaths, and that's all there is to it.

TBH i'm not interested in his rehabilitation. I'd like to see him spend the rest of his natural life locked up. I don't believe he deserves to be free ever.

suicide_circus

woodoo wrote: »

TBH i'm not interested in his rehabilitation. I'd like to see him spend the rest of his natural life locked up. I don't believe he deserves to be free ever.

I agree. I'm not too concerned out rehabilitation, its more about protecting the rest of society by taking this dangerous person off the streets

Dudess

I know Old Hippy and one other person are saying they're products of harsh backgrounds: possibly but not for definite - and so ****ing what?! They are still utterly depraved - as said, most people from such backgrounds don't carry out such acts. And imagine being their neighbours? Preaching tolerance re these monsters is a middle-class privilege - a preserve of those who don't have to live among them. I agree there needs to be serious work done to tackle disenfranchisement that leads to such crime, but I wish Old Hippy, you'd stop aggressively nitpicking at people's use of terms like "scumbag" and straightaway assuming this is a blanket attack on people from poor/tough areas. We don't know that they are at such disadvantage and they ARE scumbags, as anyone from any background carrying out such an assault would be. You're the one bringing background into it. It's kinda condescending towards people from deprived backgrounds IMO. I fully agree there are people here with a vile attitude towards people from council estates etc, but calling these guys scumbags isn't the same thing - it does not automatically signify prejudice towards working-class or poor people.

That said, the medieval torture ideas are as messed up as ever, but it doesn't make those who think them up "as bad as" these thugs, seeing as the attack they carried out was unprovoked. The anger towards them is understandable though - and a hiding from other prisoners wouldn't bother me. But no state violence - we should be better than that.

They should get a long, long sentence in high security IMO (bollocks that Mountjoy is a holiday camp - mosey on in there for a look so and come back to us). I'd love to know who all these "leftie liberal loonies" (derp) are though, who wouldn't condemn this assault and would feel sorry for them and would plead that they don't get punished. Even Old Hippy and the other person aren't going as far as that...

billybudd

Dudess wrote: »

I know Old Hippy and one other person are saying they're products of harsh backgrounds: possibly but not for definite - and so ****ing what?! They are still utterly depraved - as said, most people from such backgrounds don't carry out such acts. And imagine being their neighbours? Preaching tolerance re these monsters is a middle-class privilege - a preserve of those who don't have to live among them. I agree there needs to be serious work done to tackle disenfranchisement that leads to such crime, but I wish Old Hippy, you'd stop aggressively nitpicking at people's use of terms like "scumbag" and straightaway assuming this is a blanket attack on people from poor/tough areas. We don't know that they are at such disadvantage and they ARE scumbags, as anyone from any background carrying out such an assault would be. You're the one bringing background into it. It's kinda condescending towards people from deprived backgrounds IMO. I fully agree there are people here with a vile attitude towards people from council estates etc, but calling these guys scumbags isn't the same thing - it does not automatically signify prejudice towards working-class or poor people.

That said, the medieval torture ideas are as messed up as ever, but it doesn't make those who think them up "as bad as" these thugs, seeing as the attack they carried out was unprovoked. The anger towards them is understandable though - and a hiding from other prisoners wouldn't bother me. But no state violence - we should be better than that.

They should get a long, long sentence in high security IMO (bollocks that Mountjoy is a holiday camp - mosey on in there for a look so and come back to us). I'd love to know who all these "leftie liberal loonies" (derp) are though, who wouldn't condemn this assault and would feel sorry for them and would plead that they don't get punished. Even Old Hippy and the other person aren't going as far as that...

Well said!

95% of working class or what is considered poor areas are fine and you will have no bother with anyone, as always its a few families that give a area a bad name.

Where this guy morgan was from would be actually considered a middle class area, certainly my argument would not be about a persons background such as working class etc as i dont believe in it, i believe a persons class is how they conduct themselves regardless of financial backgrounds, a scumbag can come from darnedale or booterstown in my opinion.

sadly for old hippy he is or has become what he porbaly despises so much. judgemental and a person who lables.

Pegasus Galactica

unbelievable behaviour. shockin.

Pdfile

kinetic wrote: »

Just watching the news now re. the lads that kicked that poor polish man to death in dublin...
Anyway the convicted are leaving court and awaiting sentencing and some skanger woman with one of the lads starts roaring at the cameraman saying "leave him alone hes been through enough"
Are you fooking kidding me you rotten peroxide knack they took a mans life!

on behalf of all irish to all the poles reading this ( and inimidating russians, crazy ukrainians etc ) Sorry; but this is pretty normal except most of the time nobody dies.

these people Aren't Really irish ( support ira; locve man utd, believe in irish consitution; cant qoute it etc ) and asuch should not be treated equal, namely when they feel the need to treat everyone else un-equally...

elmossman

They should be deported to serve their sentence in a Polish jail to be tortured for doing that - HORRIBLE!

benway

charlemont wrote: »

People really misunderstand Life sentencing here, Its actually very strict.

Been covered in depth here: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=77617873

People misunderstand the criminal justice system in general, particularly those holding out the strongest views.

Some of you have really covered yourselves in glory here - torture, eugenics, the systematic liquidation of a certain "stratum of society"? Seems familiar, somehow.

Dudess

Some folks maintain sentences are decided by the looney lefties, as if a bunch of hippies just set laws randomly. I find discussion with such people to be futile.

conorhal

benway wrote: »

Been covered in depth here: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=77617873

People misunderstand the criminal justice system in general, particularly those holding out the strongest views.

Some of you have really covered yourselves in glory here - torture, eugenics, the systematic liquidation of a certain "stratum of society"? Seems familiar, somehow.

Well that's what you get when the systems of 'law' and the concept of 'justice' become so far removed from one another as to seem diametrically opposed to each other. The system is very, very broken and the further law veers from justice the more likely we are to become a failed state.

benway

conorhal wrote: »

The system is very, very broken and the further law veers from justice the more likely we are to become a failed state.

Out of curiosity, what's your basis for saying this? Do you attend many criminal trials? Or do you have any other first-hand experience in the criminal justice system?

Bear in mind that your concept of justice may not correspond with others' - the death penalty, torture, castration, etc. wouldn't much fit my definition of justice, either.

why the F*** were the other two charged with manslaughter and not with murder???????????????????

ScienceNerd

ScienceNerd wrote: »

Sorry, did that say they're being convicted of manslaughter? How is it not murder?

INSANITY

ColeTrain

ColeTrain wrote: »

didn't it say that one had 50+ previous convictions?

He should spend the rest of his life behind bars. No excuses, it's that simple.

Some US states use the 3 strikes and you get life system.

It works:
http://capitolweekly.net/article.php?xid=zzmv7xnlm75wsi

violent crime at lowest since 1968

Well done to the US for finally getting to grips with its violent crime

Icepick

Icepick wrote: »

Animals don't attack "for a buzz."

in fairness alot of cats do

benway

Deleted User wrote: »

Some US states use the 3 strikes and you get life system.

Well done to the US for finally getting to grips with its violent crime

Correlation =/= causation. No three strikes or death penalty in New York.

Violent crime in the city has dropped by three quarters in the twelve years ending in 2005 with the murder rate at its lowest then level since 1963 with 539 murders that year, for a murder rate of 6.58 per 100,000 people, compared to 2,245 murders in 1990. In 2009, the low would be displaced. Among the 182 U.S. cities with populations of more than 100,000, New York City ranked 136th in overall crime

Even still, their violent crime rate is around one and a half times ours, so I'm not sure that counts as a massive success.

benway

benway wrote: »

Correlation =/= causation. No three strikes or death penalty in New York.



Even still, their violent crime rate is around one and a half times ours, so I'm not sure that counts as a massive success.

They had the law in NY until recently
http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2010/04/new_yorks_three-strikes_law_un.html

But I would agree correlation does not equal causation but if you were to lock up a person who in Ireland would have ended up with 70 convictions and is still walking around in some US states after number 3 you have prevented 67 crimes.

Lock em up!

benway

Deleted User wrote: »

They had the law in NY until recently
http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2010/04/new_yorks_three-strikes_law_un.html

That wasn't a true "three strikes" law, it allowed judicial discretion. Even at that, it was found unconstitutional.

Deleted User wrote: »

Lock em up!

Will cost lots of money, and won't make us any safer, but if it makes you happy....

daRobot

It'd be nice if we could outsource the imprisoning of our Prisoners to the US.

They'd think twice about doing anything knowing they were facing a stretch in some seriously tough jails.

They're absolute vermin.

benway

daRobot wrote: »

They'd think twice about doing anything knowing they were facing a stretch in some seriously tough jails.

Makes no difference.

The US has an incarceration rate 8 times higher than ours, and jails as tough as you like, but their crime rates are still higher across the board, by an order of magnitude for most classes of offences.

daRobot

benway wrote: »

Makes no difference.

The US has an incarceration rate 8 times higher than ours, and jails as tough as you like, but their crime rates are still higher across the board, by an order of magnitude for most classes of offences.

Completely different society for a multitude of reasons, and certainly not comparable imo.

lividduck

Deleted User wrote: »

Some US states use the 3 strikes and you get life system.

It works:
http://capitolweekly.net/article.php?xid=zzmv7xnlm75wsi



Well done to the US for finally getting to grips with its violent crime

Which of course it hasn't, it has a crime rate that has grown exponentially with its expanding prison system, if the US system shows anything it shows that tougher longer sentences do not lead to crime reduction

Nodin

Deleted User wrote: »

Some US states use the 3 strikes and you get life system.

It works:
http://capitolweekly.net/article.php?xid=zzmv7xnlm75wsi



Well done to the US for finally getting to grips with its violent crime

That's California, comparing itself to itself. The US overall has a far higher murder rate than here. California has a higher murder rate than here, and in some sections, 10-20 times ours.