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Skangers on RTE news now

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    #122
    usernamegoes
    Registered Users Posts: 901 ✭✭✭usernamegoes


    caitmb wrote: »
    What I cant understand is the judge adjourning sentencing?? Why? Just get it done and stop dragging it out for the victims family... They'll never get long enough in this country but get it over with. (unless they are importing chinese garlic that is....)

    There's no discretion either, as far as I know, it's life. I'd be interested to hear more about why this was done.


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    #123
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    prinz wrote: »
    Well Mammy looks like she's still willing to take care of them. After that they can end up face down in a ditch somewhere. Worrying about what will become of them really isn't hight up on my list of priorities. They should never again get outside a prison to begin with.. but no doubt you'll be up to hold their hands and worry about their rights and entitlements.

    So kneejerk cock-ology, emotive nonsense once more, with a bit of strawmanning and misrepresentation for good measure.

    We'll try a third time.

    What do you think the consequences would be, of long term unrehabiltated offenders being released on the streets without recourse to any aid from the state?


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    #124
    MrJoeSoap
    Registered Users Posts: 15,117 ✭✭✭✭MrJoeSoap


    caitmb wrote: »
    What I cant understand is the judge adjourning sentencing?? Why? Just get it done and stop dragging it out for the victims family... They'll never get long enough in this country but get it over with. (unless they are importing chinese garlic that is....)

    "In many cases, there will be adjournment prior to the passing of sentence. The most common reason for such an adjournment is where the court requires a pre-sentence report before passing sentence."

    http://www.inbrief.co.uk/court-judgements/sentencing.htm


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    #125
    wexie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,480 ✭✭✭wexie


    Nodin wrote: »
    Well theres zero rehab in the prison system as is, and these are clearly not functioning in the "normal" range of bahviours.

    So, again, tell me, what exactly do you think will happen if they're denied any form of benefit when they get out?

    is that not the perfect argument to never ever let them out?


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    #126
    usernamegoes
    Registered Users Posts: 901 ✭✭✭usernamegoes


    MrJoeSoap wrote: »
    "In many cases, there will be adjournment prior to the passing of sentence. The most common reason for such an adjournment is where the court requires a pre-sentence report before passing sentence."

    http://www.inbrief.co.uk/court-judgements/sentencing.htm

    Aye, but a conviction for murder is life, a report can't change that.

    Also it's going to be custodial for this type of manslaughter anyway so why not start it today, and hear the report later and pass judgment then. Saves any scope for absconding.


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    #127
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    Nodin wrote: »
    What do you think the consequences would be, of long term unrehabiltated offenders being released on the streets without recourse to any aid from the state?

    You mean like the ones who already are? So the State should continue to pay their way for them to continue acting like scum?

    As I said scumbags like this should never see a day on the streets again except in shackles.


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    #128
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    wexie wrote: »
    is that not the perfect argument to never ever let them out?

    Well you're (ie the state) sentencing people to longer terms because of conditions you created so no. People have to be sentenced because of what they did, and treated in a manner that will best serve the rest of us. One way would be longer sentences only commuted when theres concrete evidence of rehabilitation.

    However theres no appetite in the political "class" (for want of a better way of expressing it) for prison reform, because it would not be popular, or cheap.


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    #129
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    prinz wrote: »
    You mean like the ones who already are? So the State should continue to pay their way for them to continue acting like scum? .

    Nobody is paid to "continue acting like scum".

    For the fourth time - What do you think the consequences would be, of long term unrehabiltated offenders being released on the streets without recourse to any aid from the state?

    Or perhaps you might explain why you won't elaborate on your own idea.
    prinz wrote: »
    As I said scumbags like this should never see a day on the streets again except in shackles.

    ...which the state would pay for. Shackles and all.


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    #130
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    MrJoeSoap wrote: »
    The law as it is protects nobody but scum like this.

    *You kill a Garda in a car after a 30km chase at ridiculous speeds whilst drunk and disqualified (and show no remorse)... you get 7 years and put in an open prison on the border.

    *You "dance" on an innocent human beings head for a "buzz", and you are let walk unaccompanied from the court, before being given a token manslaughter sentence.

    *You dare to stand up to the people who murdered your son, and you're forced to leave the country to stay alive.

    Nothing in this country pisses me off more than these out and out scumbags, career criminals who milk the state of welfare and cost us a fortune in prison costs. I'm all for human rights but if you cause deliberate harm to another human being which then causes that person to die, you're a murderer and the minimum sentence you should get is a mandatory life sentence.

    RIP Lukasz Rzeszutko, Pawel Kalite, Marius Szwajkos, Roy Collins, Garda Gary McLoughlin and everyone else who has been killed in this country "for a buzz". Hopefully your deaths weren't in vain.
    Couldnt agree more.
    These lads are pure filth, the worst kind of scum. They should be imprisoned for life - ie: until they die.
    The situation in this country of people with huge amounts of previous convictions walking the streets and committing more crimes is nothing less than a national disgrace. It makes me ashamed of this country that this is our idea of justice. Absolutely sickening. My heart goes out to the family of this Polish guy.


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    #131
    wexie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,480 ✭✭✭wexie


    Nodin wrote: »
    People have to be sentenced because of what they did, and treated in a manner that will best serve the rest of us.

    Well in that case I think they should just be taken out back of the four courts and put down like the rabid animals they are. No fuss, no camera's, no bull****. Just make sure they're taken off the streets, permanently.

    According to you they won't be rehabilited in prison and they won't be getting better back on the streets.

    Already they're happy standing up in court and admitting to killing someone 'for a larf'....you really think they still have a place in society?


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    #132
    deandean
    Registered Users Posts: 2,231 ✭✭✭deandean


    There was a thread in AH a few months ago, 'What is the definition of a scumbag?'.

    The general answer IIRC, was 'a person with no morals' - a person who doesn't give a $hit about anybody except him/herself.

    'Scumbag' is very appropriate term, amongst others, that can be applied to the low-lifes who killed Lukasz Rzeszutko, especially that ugly fcuk who was 'dancing on his head'.

    I know a lot of Polish lads, and upsettingly, one also called Lukasz.


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    #133
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    Nodin wrote: »
    ...which the state would pay for. Shackles and all.

    I have no problem paying for them to be behind bars and prevented from jumping up and down on some other head. Better return on the money than using it to pay them Jobseekers etc no questions asked and a state pension and leave them continue to be a danger to society.

    We can sit here talking about rehabilitation all you want, but I don't think any of the three in the present case are deserving of even the chance to be rehabilitated.


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    #134
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    wexie wrote: »
    Well in that case I think they should just be taken out back of the four courts and put down like the rabid animals they are. No fuss, no camera's, no bull****. Just make sure they're taken off the streets, permanently. ...

    The death penalty, while ending the whole worry about 'what do we do with them' generally seems to end up discriminating against those with less money, to put it bluntly. Thus two people can carry out a similar crime, yet the one less well off will bear the ultimate punishment.

    And of course theres the whole "miscarriage of justice" thing.
    wexie wrote: »
    According to you they won't be rehabilited in prison...

    ....statistically its unlikely past a certain age.
    wexie wrote: »
    and they won't be getting better back on the streets. ...

    Not doing whatever they've been doing....
    wexie wrote: »
    Already they're happy standing up in court and admitting to killing someone 'for a larf'....you really think they still have a place in society?

    ....they do, in prison, yes. After that comes the difficult part, hence the need for prison reform.


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    #135
    old hippy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,441 ✭✭✭old hippy


    Truly horrible crime but the usual dribblings of knackers, scum, amimals etc kind of lessens the impact of the horror allegedly felt here.

    Yup, what a terrible state Ireland is in. Racism, neo-Thatcherism and demonising the disenfranchised. All in one merry package.


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    #136
    Grayson
    Registered Users Posts: 16,183 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    prinz wrote: »
    I have no problem paying for them to be behind bars and prevented from jumping up and down on some other head. Better return on the money than using it to pay them Jobseekers etc no questions asked and a state pension and leave them continue to be a danger to society.

    We can sit here talking about rehabilitation all you want, but I don't think any of the three in the present case are deserving of even the chance to be rehabilitated.

    If they can be rehabilitated, they should be. (BTW, I have absolutely no idea if they can be).
    The reason I say they should is because I can think of no better punishment than to actually feel remorse for their crime and to actually understand how depraved they are. Then they will have to live with themselves for the rest of their lives.


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    #137
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    Grayson wrote: »
    If they can be rehabilitated, they should be. (BTW, I have absolutely no idea if they can be).
    The reason I say they should is because I can think of no better punishment than to actually feel remorse for their crime and to actually understand how depraved they are. Then they will have to live with themselves for the rest of their lives.

    Well I'll grant you that, rehabilitate them then put them back in a cell for the rest of their miserable lives.


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    #138
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    prinz wrote: »
    I have no problem paying for them to be behind bars and prevented from jumping up and down on some other head. Better return on the money than using it to pay them Jobseekers etc no questions asked and a state pension and leave them continue to be a danger to society..

    ....and again, you haven't answered the question. Time number five -

    What do you think the consequences would be, of long term unrehabiltated offenders being released on the streets without recourse to any aid from the state?
    prinz wrote: »
    We can sit here talking about rehabilitation all you want, but I don't think any of the three in the present case are deserving of even the chance to be rehabilitated.

    This may come as a shock, but there are more than those three criminals in the country.


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    #139
    Cedrus
    Registered Users Posts: 1,429 ✭✭✭Cedrus


    When I saw the Guards carrying slash hooks I thought of another use for them rather than searching for evidence.
    However, two wrongs don't make a right.


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    #140
    old hippy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,441 ✭✭✭old hippy


    Cedrus wrote: »
    When I saw the Guards carrying slash hooks I thought of another use for them rather than searching for evidence.

    Add them to the torches, pitchforks, baying mob


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    #141
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    Nodin wrote: »
    ....and again, you haven't answered the question. Time number five -

    I don't give a toss about whatever question it is you think you are asking.
    Nodin wrote: »
    What do you think the consequences would be, of long term unrehabiltated offenders being released on the streets without recourse to any aid from the state?

    http://www.sundayworld.com/columnists/sw-irish-crime.php?aid=10417


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    #142
    wexie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,480 ✭✭✭wexie


    Nodin wrote: »
    The death penalty, while ending the whole worry about 'what do we do with them' generally seems to end up discriminating against those with less money, to put it bluntly. Thus two people can carry out a similar crime, yet the one less well off will bear the ultimate punishment.

    And of course theres the whole "miscarriage of justice" thing.



    ....statistically its unlikely past a certain age.



    Not doing whatever they've been doing....



    ....they do, in prison, yes. After that comes the difficult part, hence the need for prison reform.

    Don't get me wrong I don't think the death penalty is much of a solution, in principle in some cases I'd be all for it, but like you pointed out, there are simply too many practical considerations for it to ever properly be implemented in real life.

    Do you really think prison reform would work though? I've no doubt our current system is far from perfect but I also doubt that in a case such as this one any rehabilition can really have any effect. I know it's probably over used (surprisingly not in their defence) but these lads really must have a few screws loose and in my most humble laymens opinion are well beyond any hope of help.

    We can argue a long time about whether this is to blame on 'society', parenting issues, lack of positive stimulation, lack of father figures etc etc etc. but when push comes to shove if you jump on somebody's head for sh1ts and giggles there's something seriously wrong with you.


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    #143
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    old hippy wrote: »
    Add them to the torches, pitchforks, baying mob

    In this case a baying mob is entirely justified.


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    #144
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    wexie wrote: »
    We can argue a long time about whether this is to blame on 'society', parenting issues, lack of positive stimulation, lack of father figures etc etc etc. but when push comes to shove if you jump on somebody's head for sh1ts and giggles there's something seriously wrong with you.

    You will be too. If you keep it up you'll see everyone getting the blame for it but the rats actually involved. It's my fault, it's your fault, it's Bertie's fault, it's the Pope's fault, it's Ozzy Osbourne's fault...


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    #145
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    wexie wrote: »
    Don't get me wrong I don't think the death penalty is much of a solution, in principle in some cases I'd be all for it, but like you pointed out, there are simply too many practical considerations for it to ever properly be implemented in real life.

    Do you really think prison reform would work though? I've no doubt our current system is far from perfect but I also doubt that in a case such as this one any rehabilition can really have any effect. I know it's probably over used (surprisingly not in their defence) but these lads really must have a few screws loose and in my most humble laymens opinion are well beyond any hope of help.

    We can argue a long time about whether this is to blame on 'society', parenting issues, lack of positive stimulation, lack of father figures etc etc etc. but when push comes to shove if you jump on somebody's head for sh1ts and giggles there's something seriously wrong with you.

    There are a number of European countries with far lower rates of crime and reoffending than we have here, so they are doing something right.

    It has to be said theres a lot more wrong with various offenders than not having a father figure during childhood. Foetal alcohol syndrom and its drug based equivalent, sexual abuse, violence (and not a punch in the gob violence either)...usually there's a mix.


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    #146
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    old hippy wrote: »
    Truly horrible crime but the usual dribblings of knackers, scum, amimals etc kind of lessens the impact of the horror allegedly felt here.

    Yup, what a terrible state Ireland is in. Racism, neo-Thatcherism and demonising the disenfranchised. All in one merry package.

    Disenfranchised my hole. Scumbags.


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    #147
    Explosions in the Sky
    Closed Accounts Posts: 191 ✭✭Explosions in the Sky


    Grayson wrote: »
    If they can be rehabilitated, they should be. (BTW, I have absolutely no idea if they can be).
    The reason I say they should is because I can think of no better punishment than to actually feel remorse for their crime and to actually understand how depraved they are. Then they will have to live with themselves for the rest of their lives.
    These men can't be rehabilitated, they killed a man by kicking and then standing on his head for the craic, the only rehabilitation they deserve is to be tied to a table and cut open like in Law Abiding Citizen


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    #148
    old hippy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,441 ✭✭✭old hippy


    suicide_circus wrote: »
    In this case a baying mob is entirely justified.

    Feelings are high but when you start demonising an entire strata of people, you are no better than those you decry.

    I want justice but I'm not in league with the hang em high opportunists who don't give a toss about ordinary people (from home or elsewhere).


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    #149
    old hippy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,441 ✭✭✭old hippy


    Explosions in the Sky wrote: »
    These men can't be rehabilitated, they killed a man by kicking and then standing on his head for the craic, the only rehabilitation they deserve is to be tied to a table and cut open like in Law Abiding Citizen

    See the blood lust here? You are as bad as they are.


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    #150
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    old hippy wrote: »
    See the blood lust here? You are as bad as they are.

    No he's not.


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    #151
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    prinz wrote: »
    I don't give a toss about whatever question it is you think you are asking.

    The question I'm asking is based on the statement you made -
    It's not off topic in so far as the two up for manslaughter will be back on the streets in the not so distant future and who do you think is going to pay their way in life? The same hardworking law abiding men and women, just like their murder victim. I have no problem with people on welfare support who need it and appreciate it. I have major problems with our state subsidising murderers and scumbags on the tab of the people the state should be protecting.

    I asked - rather logically, and here for the sixth time - What do you think the consequences would be, of long term unrehabiltated offenders being released on the streets without recourse to any aid from the state?

    For some reason - despite having brought it up - you seem absolutely unable and/or unwilling to expound on that.
    prinz wrote: »
    http://www.sundayworld.com/columnists/sw-irish-crime.php?aid=10417

    And the point of throwing that in and its relation to this debate is.....?


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