What would you do with Tim Tebow?

TO.

eagle eye wrote: »

He has been brilliant in the NFL in the red zone and I think there are plenty of teams who could use him as their QB there. Teams like Chicago, Cincy and even Seattle could do with him in that role.

That way he gets to remain a QB and gets time to develop while still contributing to a team.

Is he really that good though? Had something written up about Tebow in the Redzone but my numbers were off. But I found this and it explains it nicely. When the Article was written in July 2012 Sanchez had a better record in the Redzone than Tebow.

My good friend Rich Cimini, who covers the Jets for ESPN New York, hears the team is considering using Tim Tebow in the red zone. The "Wildcat theory" is that Tebow as the quarterback with Sanchez off the field gives the team an extra blocker in the running game.


As one defensive coordinator told me today: "In theory it gives them an extra blocker but it also permits the defense to worry a lot less about the receivers with his passing game and look for defenses to steal a man from coverage to take on that run game."


Bill Cowher told me if he saw the Wildcat he would blitz it and smother the quarterback. The point: Defensive coaches will have a plan for this Jets red zone attack as it related to Tebow.

The Jets would be giving up a lot to get Tebow on the field when you consider what Sanchez has done in the red zone in comparison:


Mark Sanchez has thrown 43 red zone touchdown passes in 53 games. Six of those TD passes came in six postseason games.


Tim Tebow has nine red zone TD passes in his 25 games and none in his two postseason games.


The strategy is also puzzling when you consider that more teams score in the red zone throwing than running. Last year there were 342 rushing touchdowns and 492 passing touchdowns in the red zone.


Mark Sanchez threw 21 of his 26 touchdown passes in the red zone and only threw three interceptions. Is Tim Tebow going to run for 21 touchdowns in the red zone?


What if the Jets decide that Tebow should come in at quarterback after Sanchez leads the team down inside the 10-yard line instead of inside the 20 yard line?


During his career inside the 10, Sanchez has rushed 15 times for 11 touchdowns. Tim Tebow has rushed 11 times for 9 touchdowns.


So is there really enough difference to take the starting quarterback out of the game every time it's a red zone situation?


All this is not to say there aren't times to use Tim Tebow in the Wildcat (when the Jets have a fourth-quarter lead and want to eat up the clock). But Sanchez was tied for the fifth most productive red zone QB in the NFL last year and had an 89.1 passer rating.


Sanchez threw more red zone TD passes than Eli Manning, Tony Romo, Ben Roethlisberger, Philip Rivers, Matt Ryan, Joe Flacco, and Michael Vick.


Do the Jets want to give up that dimension of their game to get an extra blocker in the Wildcat? Or do you think it's more likely that AFC East opponents would actually rather to see Tebow instead of Sanchez in the red zone?


Last season in six division games Mark Sanchez threw nine red zone touchdown passes (a 10th TD was from 21 yards) and ran for two red zone touchdowns. Tim Tebow played five games against AFC East, running for four TDs and throwing for three more in his red zone trips.

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/blog/pat-kirwan/19614974/tebow-in-the-red-zone-numbers-say-thats-a-win-for-jets-foes

frostie500

eagle eye wrote: »

He has been brilliant in the NFL in the red zone and I think there are plenty of teams who could use him as their QB there. Teams like Chicago, Cincy and even Seattle could do with him in that role.

That way he gets to remain a QB and gets time to develop while still contributing to a team.

He was hardly brilliant even in the red zone Eagle Eye, as a bulldozing QB in the last ten yards he was nowhere near the likes of a rookie Cam Newton who constantly seemed like he was going to score a TD.

As far as the teams you are mentioning Tebow would be a massive mistake for Chicago (Cutler is in a contract year) or Cinncinati (Dalton is already under enough pressure to win a playoff game) and even though you're clearly the biggest Tebow fan on the forum do you really think that Tebow is in any way a better option than Russel Wilson in any facet of playing QB?

I've said it before, just like you do in your final sentence, that he needs time to develop but the best thing for him would be to do it in the film study room and on the practice field at a New England, New Orleans, Atlanta or Green Bay kind of team where he wouldnt be taking snaps off the starting QB but could get better

Jolly Red Giant

eagle eye wrote: »

So this is your savour? They shouldn't have beaten them? They beat them and that is all that counts. You can never take that away from Tebow.

That is absolutely true - however, the only reason that Broncos beat the Steelers is because the Steelers did not do what the Pats (who beat Denver by 18 points) the Bills (who beat Denver by 26 points) and the Chiefs (who beat Denver 7-3) did over the previous three weeks. And the Pats repeated the dose and hammered Denver by 35 points in the subsequent game.

eagle eye wrote: »

Fact of the matter is that they didn't want him but were really left with no choice but to play him and he inspired the whole team.

Again - absolutely true - but inspiration alone will not win games - he went 1-4 in his last five games for Denver and lost by a combined 75 points. By week 13 everyone (except the Steelers) figured out how to stop Tebow.

eagle eye wrote: »

When you hear Champ Bailey praising the guy and he hasn't stopped even after he left the Broncos you know how much he inspired them all. He is a born leader on the football field and even though he isn't the greatest QB you still have a better team when he is on it than having some average QB because everybody just plays better.

I guarantee you if Tebow steps onto the field starting a game as an NFL QB he will lose 90% of his games if not more. All any DC needed was four of five games of tape to work out what to do. Elway knew it, Fox knew it and Tebow showed it.

davyjose wrote: »

I'm the biggest Peyton fan in the world, but he's hardly a long term solution either.

He has another four years on his contract and he was bought to Denver to win the SB - Tebow was never, ever going to get anywhere near the SB as a QB.

poldebruin wrote: »

I also believe the coaches in Denver, showed their lack of faith (or confidence) in Tebow with some ultra conservative gameplans, and only let him do what he does best in the forth quarter or last drives of games - scramble and make things happen when the play (ineveitably) brakes down.

It was ultra conservative because Tebow couldn't handle anything else

frostie500 wrote: »

Tebow's post season in Denver showed us everything we need to know about Tebow. He has the talent to be a starter in the NFL and a productive quarterback....but he also clearly lacks the consistency to be one.

I absolutely disagree with this - Tebow has enormous athletic talent but he does not have the talent to be a productive starting QB in the NFL
In 2011
Against the Chargers - 4 completions (played second half)
Against the Dolphins - 13 completions
Against the Lions - 18 completions
Against the Raiders - 10 completions
Against the Chiefs - 2 completions
Against the Jets - 9 completions
Against the Chargers - 9 completions
Against the Vikings - 10 completions
Against the Bears - 21 completions
Against the Pats - 11 completions
Against the Bills - 13 completions
Against the Chiefs - 6 completions
Against the Steelers – 10 completions
Against the Pats - 9 completions
Tebow had a completion percentage of 46%

frostie500 wrote: »

Look at that post season run. Beating the Steelers in a great game where Pittsburgh were playing their very best "Blitzburgh" defence and Tebow took time and calmly sliced them apart with medium and deep range throws.

I don’t know where got that from. The Steelers defence was missing Ryan Clark, lost two starting Dlinemen in the 2nd Quarter and were absolutely terrible the entire game. Denver scored 20 pts in the second quarter because of several blown coverages. Tebow tossed a couple of hail mary passes that went for big yardage, he was using flip passes, repeatedly tossed the ball up in the air and his erratic passing caused Decker to be badly hurt when he overthrew a mid-range pass and Decker was hit low trying to reach it. He missed wide open receivers, he put his receivers into positions where they could get hurt and when he had an opportunity to put the game away he tossed incompletion after incompletion. The defence kept the Broncos in the game all game long harassing Rothlesberger, repeatedly putting him on his backside (sacking him 5 times and repeatedly forcing him to hurry passes) and saving the game in the dying minutes. The final winning play was all on Thomas. Blown coverage left Thomas wide open and a donkey could have hit him on the play. Thomas outran three DBs to get the touchdown.

frostie500 wrote: »

Heck I don't know so I'll just throw the ball somewhere

Unfortunately that is the only thing Tebow is consistent at – throwing the ball ‘somewhere’.

frostie500 wrote: »

I still think that he could be productive in the NFL

Yes he could – as a TE

frostie500 wrote: »

I’d love to see him sign for the Pats.

I would too – it would be great to see the hoodie deal with the hype

frostie500 wrote: »

He could learn for the next few years from Brady and see what it takes to be a successful QB in the NFL. He could learn how to read defences and Bellichek could use him in specific roles, maybe as a goal line full back or third tight end? Because if he was ever to get a snap ahead of Brady it would be a mistake at the moment but maybe over time as he learns the role he could become a legitimate option as a starter in the league.

And after all that he still wouldn’t be able to pass the ball.

SantryRed wrote: »

What pisses me off about the Tebow debate is all the credit he gets for those 7 wins. It's talked about as if the defense had nothing to do with it and Prater didn't have to kick bombs to keep them in games.

this is absolutely spot on.

eagle eye wrote: »

What annoys me more than that is the amount of people that say it was all on the defense that they won those games but then criticise Tebow for the loss to New England and forget to mention that the Broncos D gave up over 500 yards of offense and 6 passing touchdowns.

Tebow couldn’t keep the offence on the field.

Now I will finish again by saying, despite all the Jesus stuff, I rooted for Tebow – his time in Denver was edge of the seat stuff cheering all the way. His played his part in reviving the Broncos from the disaster that was McDaniels – and as much as I would like him to be - he was not, is not and never will be an NFL QB. His game had eight weeks of fame and was then found out.

spiralism

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Jacksonville are stuck in the gutter because they have a QB who can't win games. Tebow wouldn't be much different. After the initial hype of him there dies down and he starts losing then people will just disappear again. Not only that but Caldwell can kiss his job goodbye for being stupid enough to hitch his wagon to Tebow. Jags are far far better off going with what they have a slowly building their franchise. Even if Tebow eeks out his 6-8 wins all he's doing his denying the Jags the chance to draft a true franchise QB. Seems like a lose-lose situation to me.

...what? Say what you want but Tebow pulls wins out of his hole. Also, you mean draft a franchise QB like the next Gabbert? There's a reason they're in the gutter ... He'd put people in the seats and make them noticed, as opposed to being ****, nobody caring about the team and half the ground empty. He goes there, he's a local legend and can develop instead of them repeatedly bombing and so few people giving a **** the team gets moved.

It's all hypothetical though. That was then when he left, not after rotting on the jets for a year. It is a shame though, Tebowmania was fun as **** while it lasted, it just doesnt sit well with me that he doesnt get another crack at the whip when an entitled **** turned scumbag like Ryan Leaf got a few for example. The way people talk about him as a player you would swear he was Jamarcus Russell.

TO.

spiralism wrote: »

...what? Say what you want but Tebow pulls wins out of his hole. Also, you mean draft a franchise QB like the next Gabbert? There's a reason they're in the gutter ... He'd put people in the seats and make them noticed, as opposed to being ****, nobody caring about the team and half the ground empty. He goes there, he's a local legend and can develop instead of them repeatedly bombing and so few people giving a **** the team gets moved.

But what happens if he doesn't win games? As it stands most people in Gainesville and the surrounding areas could care less for the Jags. Even if Tebow does put people in seats how long will the fad last if and when he fails to win games.

Also on that how will he develop in Jacksonville as a starter? He will get game time sure and coaching sure but he will get very little time to develop enough to win games if he fails to do so from the get go.

What makes sense for Tebow in Jacksonville is a short term marketing plan but once the losses continue to happen most of those Gator fans will stop turning up.

TO.

spiralism wrote: »

.The way people talk about him as a player you would swear he was Jamarcus Russell.

This has come up a few times but how many of the Tebow doubters believe JMR deserves a second chance or think he will make it back into the NFL. I think you will find very few of the guys if none at all that doubt Tebow support Russell. I don't get why he is coming up time and time again. No team has even given Russell a nod to say they will give him the second chance you speak of.

Tebow needs to find a team and sit on the bench and learn the game behind a solid QB and from a solid coaching staff. Russell on the other hand will always be lazy and will probably fail a second time round if he ever gets that chance.

eagle eye

TO. wrote: »

But what happens if he doesn't win games? As it stands most people in Gainesville and the surrounding areas could care less for the Jags. Even if Tebow does put people in seats how long will the fad last if and when he fails to win games.

Also on that how will he develop in Jacksonville as a starter? He will get game time sure and coaching sure but he will get very little time to develop enough to win games if he fails to do so from the get go.

What makes sense for Tebow in Jacksonville is a short term marketing plan but once the losses continue to happen most of those Gator fans will stop turning up.

Just on this. The key to sales is to get people to try out the product.

davyjose

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Even if Tebow eeks out his 6-8 wins all he's doing his denying the Jags the chance to draft a true franchise QB. Seems like a lose-lose situation to me.

I don't get this. Even if Tebow takes a team far beyond their capabilities, they are still better off without him?

Logic fail.

There's more to being a QB than a quick release and throwing a tight spiral.

Jolly Red Giant

davyjose wrote: »

I don't get this. Even if Tebow takes a team far beyond their capabilities, they are still better off without him?

Logic fail.

Your logic is that Tebow won a handful of games with the Broncos and got them to the play-offs (with an 8-8 record) - so there is no reason he can't do it again.

The fact is that he won't be able to do it again because DCs now know how to stop him playing. Tebow cannot survive indefinitely on gimmick plays and running the ball. The Pats, Bills and Chiefs took away Tebow's ability to run, they didn't overpursue and they forced him, under pressure, to throw from the pocket - he couldn't do it.

davyjose wrote: »

There's more to being a QB than a quick release and throwing a tight spiral.

To be a successful QB in the modern day NFL Tebow would need to be able to read defences and throw the ball consistently from the pocket - Tebow will never be able to do that. If Tebow was around in the 1950s/1960s he could potentially have had a successful career as an NFL QB - not today.

TO.

eagle eye wrote: »

Just on this. The key to sales is to get people to try out the product.

Thanks for the sale advice. Duly noted and taken on board. No idea why you are giving it but ok.

Whether they try the product as you put it or not it doesn't change my opinion of why the Jags will only be creating a short term marketing fix if they can't win. Football as a product is a very fickle one. In fact all sports are. Tis why we have bandwagons and fair weather fans.

Teams that win will have full stadium every week. Teams that lose don't it is that simple. Sure if the Jags try the Product and it gets them a couple of full games and some extra fans and money good for them. But the question will be "how long will that last if Tebow and the jags start losing again and they are back to times pre-Tebow. Do you honestly think those fans will stick around? No they wont.

The way I see it is the only way they fill that stadium for a year is to win games and lots of them even with Tebow. They will have to depend on Gainesville and the surrounding areas to help them out and as it stands none of those areas give a toss about the Jags.

TO.

Jolly Red Giant wrote: »

To be a successful QB in the modern day NFL Tebow would need to be able to read defences and throw the ball consistently from the pocket - Tebow will never be able to do that. If Tebow was around in the 1950s/1960s he could potentially have had a successful career as an NFL QB - not today.

I agree with most of what you are saying but I wouldn't say he will never be able to read a defense or throw from the pocket. Both are very fixable. The problem for Tebow is finding a team who want to give him that chance and work with him and fix him.

frostie500

Jolly Red Giant wrote: »

That is absolutely true - however, the only reason that Broncos beat the Steelers is because the Steelers did not do what the Pats (who beat Denver by 18 points) the Bills (who beat Denver by 26 points) and the Chiefs (who beat Denver 7-3) did over the previous three weeks. And the Pats repeated the dose and hammered Denver by 35 points in the subsequent game.
.
.
.
Now I will finish again by saying, despite all the Jesus stuff, I rooted for Tebow – his time in Denver was edge of the seat stuff cheering all the way. His played his part in reviving the Broncos from the disaster that was McDaniels – and as much as I would like him to be - he was not, is not and never will be an NFL QB. His game had eight weeks of fame and was then found out.

You make a lot of good points in this JRG but the one thing that I'd say in regard to the playoff games is that the Steelers went to Denver with their defence set up to take away the run game that Denver had used so effectively that season. They had injuries on the D-Line but the gameplan was always to make Tebow beat them through the air so their front seven was set up to plug the gaps in the run blocking scheme for the Broncos and have their linebackers either blitz or look to set the edge and contain the running of Tebow and McGahee. They did this very effectively and only gave up a four yard average.

They dared Tebow to beat them with his arm and for a first year starter throwing for over 300 yards a TD and giving up no picks or sacks in his first playoff start was very impressive. The offence struggled in the second half as you said but on the balance of the game Tebow had over 350 yards total offence and two TDs. Yeah the Pittsburgh defence wasnt at full strength but all you can do is play against the team in front of you.

I havent looked back at the Pats game because my internet connection is crap here but the Broncos had the ball for something like 35 minutes so it was hardly a case of the offence not being able to stay on the field. The defence was giving up a lot of quick scores against Brady. It was a bad performance from everyone involved that day

Tebow has showed that he deserves to be in the league but as I said before he's obviously far from a perfect QB. He has lots of flaws that need to be eradicated but if he was given time and a coach had faith in him he has certainly showed that he deserves an opportunity. I dont think that with the likes of Gabbert or Ponder starting at QB that it can be argued that because they have nicer mechanics that they are any better than Tebow

TO.

frostie500 wrote: »

I havent looked back at the Pats game because my internet connection is crap here but the Broncos had the ball for something like 35 minutes so it was hardly a case of the offence not being able to stay on the field. The defence was giving up a lot of quick scores against Brady. It was a bad performance from everyone involved that day

The Broncos Offense moved at times but pressure of the quick scores stumbled them. Its mad to look back and see Denver's offense had the ball longer than the Pats offense. Just unable to punch it in and the Pats Defense wore them down. I touched on it earlier also and agree with you both sides of the ball were bad.

Tebow has showed that he deserves to be in the league but as I said before he's obviously far from a perfect QB. He has lots of flaws that need to be eradicated but if he was given time and a coach had faith in him he has certainly showed that he deserves an opportunity. I dont think that with the likes of Gabbert or Ponder starting at QB that it can be argued that because they have nicer mechanics that they are any better than Tebow

The funny thing is with all these comparisons with Tebow and other average starters is that he has one thing they need, the confidence and all those other tangibles that the greats have. But they also have what he needs. The ability to read a defense and somewhat and proper mechanics. Realistically for Tebow and Gabbert and Ponder they all have something that the NFL requires them to have but they all also lack something the NFL needs you to have.

Guffy

TO. wrote: »

The Broncos Offense moved at times but pressure of the quick scores stumbled them. Its mad to look back and see Denver's offense had the ball longer than the Pats offense. Just unable to punch it in and the Pats Defense wore them down. I touched on it earlier also and agree with you both sides of the ball were bad.



The funny thing is with all these comparisons with Tebow and other average starters is that he has one thing they need, the confidence and all those other tangibles that the greats have. But they also have what he needs. The ability to read a defense and somewhat and proper mechanics. Realistically for Tebow and Gabbert and Ponder they all have something that the NFL requires them to have but they all also lack something the NFL needs you to have.

That's why they are back ups, they have some requirements which gets them into the league but not enough to ever nail down a starting job. Not that funny just reality of NFL.

Jolly Red Giant

I am sorry for the long post - but I think it is necessary to make a point

TO. wrote: »

I agree with most of what you are saying but I wouldn't say he will never be able to read a defense orthrow from the pocket. Both are very fixable. The problem for Tebow is findinga team who want to give him that chance and work with him and fix him.

Tebow never demonstrated an ability to be able to fix either while he was with the Broncos - he was even behind Webber in his ability to do either for the two seasons he was in Denver.

Tebow was projected as a 3rd or more likely a 4th round pick - McDaniels traded up to take him in the 1st. That started the'ultra' hype - the hype was already there. For Tebow to have any chance hereally needed to be a low draft pick and have gone to a team with a stable QB and organisational set-up - like NE - and sit for five or six years - then he might (and I stress - 'might') have been a serviceable QB in the NFL. There isn't a hope in hell of that happening now - Tebow believes the hype and will not swallow his ego and switch to TE.

frostie500 wrote: »

You make a lot of good points in this JRG but the one thing that I'd say in regard to the playoff games is that the Steelers went to Denver with their defence set up to takeaway the run game that Denver had used so effectively that season. They had injuries on the D-Line but the gameplan was always to make Tebow beat them through the air so their front seven was set up to plug the gaps in the runblocking scheme for the Broncos and have their linebackers either blitz or lookto set the edge and contain the running of Tebow and McGahee. They did thisvery effectively and only gave up a four yard average.

They dared Tebow to beat them with his armand for a first year starter throwing for over 300 yards a TD and giving up no picks or sacks in his first playoff start was very impressive. The offence struggled in the second half as you said but on the balance of the game Tebow had over 350 yards total offence and two TDs. Yeah the Pittsburgh defence wasnt at full strength but all you can do is play against the team in front of you.

Let’s nail this on the head –
Broncos V Steelers

Ryan Clark is out – Rothlesberger is hobbling with a bad ankle (Denver repeatedly sack him and he limps through the entire game - not an excuse just a fact).

Steelers start with a FG

Broncos first possession – Denver goes 3 and out - Tebow rushes for 1 yd and throws an incompletion

Second possession - Denver goes 3 and out – 2 rushes and Tebow throws an incompletion

Steelers score a FG

Next Possession - Tebow overthrows Decker who snags the ball and is hammered low by Harrison – incomplete pass. Decker is hurt and out of the game
Next play – no pressure Tebow has all day to throw and Thomas is wide open – Tebow tosses the ball a little long and Thomas picks up 51 yds. Two plays later Tebow throws a good ball into the corner of the endzone to Royal who catches it for a TD. The DB had perfect position and should have easily knocked the ball away.

Next possession – Blown coverage – no pressure on Tebow – he throws the ball short and Thomas has to come back for it. Thomas gains 25 yds after the catch dodging DBs who won’t tackle him.- 58 yd play. Two plays later Tebow runs in from 8 yds.

Rothlesberger is sacked then intercepted - Denvergoes 3 and out – Tebow is 1-2 for 6yds. Pittsburgh is penalised for roughing the passer in a terrible call. Denver FG

Next Denver possession – Tebow rolls out – no pressure – blown coverage and Fells is wide open. Tebow throws it short and Fells has to wait for the ball. Tackled for a 40yd gain. Tebow throws 2 more incompletions before a FG.

Half Time – Denver 20-6 – Tebow is 5-11 – 179yds and 1 TD

Second half

Tebow throws incomplete – short – penalty on Steelers no play. Tebow throws a 12 yd pass to Royal – Denver punt.

Steelers score a TD

Next possession – incomplete – then 6yd pass –then 8yds pass to Royal – Royal is penalised for offensive pass interference because he has to fight back for a short ball. Tebow has another incomplete and Denver kick a FG.

Next possession – Tebow is 1-2 for 12 yds and Denver fumbles the ball

Next possession – Tebow throws for 17 yds from blown coverage – pass is short but collected by Fells who is then tackled. Tebow finishes the drive with 2 incompletions (both short) and Denver punt.

At this point the game is level and Steelers have the ball on their own 24 yd line with 1.37 left. Denver sacks Rothlesberger 3 times in 6 plays to finish out the game.

In the second half Tebow is 4-8 for 47 yds

Overtime – blown coverage – no pressure Tebow throws short to a wide open Thomas who collects the ball fights with 2 DBs and then outruns the defence to get to the endzone for an 80 yd TD.

Tebow’s final stats are 10-21 for 316 yds – four plays go for 80yds, 58 yds, 51 yds and 40yds. However, the most notable thing is that Tebow consistently underthrows the ball and the receivers have to wait for it and then fight for extra yardage. On one occasion he overthrows and causes Decker to be badly hurt. Tebow acted like a gunslinger and would not have completed any of the long throws or the TD had it not been for absolutely terrible play (all day) by the Steelers DBs.

Despite the fact that Denver won the game and Tebow was the hero – any reasonable analysis would show that Tebow was very lucky. The Steelers were terrible and Tebow consistently underthrew his receivers all day – the catches only being made because of blown coverage in the secondary. Tebow did the same against the Pats the following week –unfortunately you are not going to get blown coverage and wide open receivers two weeks in a row in the NFL

TO. wrote: »

The Broncos Offense moved at times but pressure of the quick scores stumbled them.

The Denver defence was knackered by the time of the Pats game – they tried but gave up early after an interception and a sack.

The Pats jumped out with a quick TD and then on the next possession Tebow was sacked and fumbled the ball - Brady marched down for another TD.

Pats 14 up and Tebow has one incomplete pass.

Next possession Tebow completes 1-3 for 6yds.

Brady gets intercepted and Denver rushes 4 times for a TD.

Score 14-7 and Tebow is 1-4 and 6 yds 6 secs into 2nd Qtr.

Pats punt and Denver goes 3 and out on 3 rushes.

Pats score a TD and Denver goes 3 and out with 2 Tebow incompletions.

Score 21-7 – 6 mins left in the half and Tebow is 1-6 for 6 yds.

Pats punt – things improve – Tebow completes a pass for 12 yds and then gets sacked twice - Pats score a 61yd TD

Next possession - Denver goes 3 and out with 2 Tebow incompletions.

Pats score a TD

Score at the half - 35-7 and Tebow is 2-9 for 18yds and two sacks.

In the second half Tebow goes –

Incomplete

Sack

Incomplete

Incomplete

Pass 18 yds

Sack

Pass 14yds

Incomplete

Sack

Into the 4th Quarter and Denver has a productive possession

Run 3yds

Incomplete

Pass 12 yds

Run – 5yds

Pass 8yds

Pass 14yds

Run 4yds

Run 0yds

Incomplete

Pass 41 yds

Incomplete

Incomplete

Incomplete

Incomplete

Final stats for Tebow – 9-26 for 136 yds –and most of that was on one drive in garbage time in the 4th Qtr.

TO. wrote: »

Its mad to look back andsee Denver's offense had the ball longer than the Pats offense.

They didn't - the Pats had the ball for 33.23- Denver had the ball for 26.37 – and a lot of that possession time for Denver was in 4th Qtr garbage time

TO. wrote: »

Just unable to punch it in and the Pats Defense wore them down.

Denver never got close – the Pats had Tebow’s number

Tebow has showed that he deserves to be inthe league but as I said before he's obviously far from a perfect QB.

Does he deserve to be in the NFL? - Yes he does - he is a very talented athlete - i love watching him - he is exciting - but I wouldn't want him within an ass's roar of the Broncos again under any circumstances. He is not and never will be an NFL QB.

Paully D

The unfortunate thing for Tebow is that while I'm sure some teams would like to take him on as a bit of a project (I've seen the Patriots mentioned a couple of times) so he can learn to read a defense from a top QB and improve on his mechanics etc, the media craze and unwanted attention that would be heaped on whatever team takes him has to put them off. They will all see a Tebow project as not worth it for the amount of hassle it will cause.

Change the name on the back of his shirt and keep his achievements (turning a 1-4 team into an 8-8 team who won a playoff game against the Steelers) in the game to date and I'd argue there would be many teams who would take him on as backup project, but the inevitable outside intrusion isn't worth it for them.

You only have to look at the amount of players who get into trouble off the field but still pick up teams to know that if you're good enough to start in the league you will usually always pick something up, but teams aren't going to do that for what would be a backup QB who still needs to develop certain aspects of his game. I'm not comparing Tebow to people who get in trouble off the field by the way, moreso the similar media coverage that would occur if a team picked Tebow up.

TO.

Jolly Red Giant wrote: »

Tebow never demonstrated an ability to be able to fix either while he was with the Broncos - he was even behind Webber in his ability to do either for the two seasons he was in Denver.

Clearly missing my point. I said the problems wrong with him are fixable. I never said anything about whether or not he personally could fix them. Who knows at this point but all you seem hell bent on proving that he is done. So it is pointless debating that.

The Denver defence was knackered by the time of the Pats game – they tried but gave up early after an interception and a sack.

The Pats jumped out with a quick TD and then on the next possession Tebow was sacked and fumbled the ball - Brady marched down for another TD.

Talk about reading way too much into what I said. They clearly moved the ball at times as I said. They scored in the 2nd quarter didn't they. Once again reading way too much into what I said. The fact I agree with most of what you are saying is baffling as to why you would try force your point on what i said and read that much into it.

They didn't - the Pats had the ball for 33.23- Denver had the ball for 26.37 – and a lot of that possession time for Denver was in 4th Qtr garbage time

Wrong the Broncos had the ball 33.23 and Pats 26.37. Only 7 mins wasted in garbage time in the 4th.

Denver never got close – the Pats had Tebow’s number

Oh really? 1 of 3 in the Redzone. Ok But again reading far too much into what I said.

What this boils down to is read what I have written about Tebow over the last few pages. Had you bothered you would see for the most part I agree with you. But the parts you quoted you read way too much into. As I said the Broncos were sh1t that night and this is the 3rd time i am saying it.

poldebruin

JRG....No need to apologise for long posts, I certainly enjoy reading them.

I think the majority on the forum have acknowledged Tebow has (major) limitations as a QB - all of these same arguments came up in the Tebow v Orton debate at the time. People were arguing that Orton's completion % was better, that he could read Defences, that he could make all the throws etc but when it came down to it, none of that translated into wins for Denver that year. I think that is the reason I (and possibly others) tend to give Tebow a little benefit despite some awful looking passing statistics.

The idea that Tebow can never make it as a QB in the NFL seems at odds with some of the QBs I see play in the NFL - the NFL is simply not stocked with 32 excellent QBs.

On to the Steelers game.....

Jolly Red Giant wrote: »

Let’s nail this on the head –
Broncos V Steelers.....

.....Despite the fact that Denver won the game and Tebow was the hero – any reasonable analysis would show that Tebow was very lucky. The Steelers were terrible and Tebow consistently underthrew his receivers all day – the catches only being made because of blown coverage in the secondary.

I remember this game well. Sure the Steelers had injuries but they were the number 1 ranked D coming into the game. My abiding memory of that game is not that Denver were lucky, but were unlucky not to have blown the Steelers out by a larger margin. Denver were 20 - 6 up, when they recovered a fumble inside the Stellers 20. An errant whistle ruled it out and made the play non-reviewable. Pittsburgh went 87 yards for a TD with the second chance.

Later, with Denver winning 23 - 16 they had driven to midfield wth 7 minutes to play when McGahee fumbled the ball back to Pittsburgh, who went in for a tying score.

The Steelers didn't play great in the game, but it can't all be put down to blown coverages. In the lead up to the game, Elway was quoted as telling Tebow to "pull the trigger" let your receivers go up and get the ball/make plays...and that's what Tebow did.

The Patriots game was truly depressing, but I have seen many truly depressing games from even the best of QB's...and I mean real howlers, but their careers aren't defined by a single game. Superbowl XXIV is a case in point. Elway was dismal that day. It looked like he couldn't hit the side of a barn door (I'm not...repeat not comapring Tebow to Elway) but games taken in isolation don't tell the whole story.

TLDR: Tebow has major flaws, he was good in the Steelers game and bad in the Patriots game and in my opinion could be a better option than 3-5 current starting QBs.

Chucky the tree

spiralism wrote: »

...what? Say what you want but Tebow pulls wins out of his hole. Also, you mean draft a franchise QB like the next Gabbert? There's a reason they're in the gutter ... He'd put people in the seats and make them noticed, as opposed to being ****, nobody caring about the team and half the ground empty. He goes there, he's a local legend and can develop instead of them repeatedly bombing and so few people giving a **** the team gets moved.

It's all hypothetical though. That was then when he left, not after rotting on the jets for a year. It is a shame though, Tebowmania was fun as **** while it lasted, it just doesnt sit well with me that he doesnt get another crack at the whip when an entitled **** turned scumbag like Ryan Leaf got a few for example. The way people talk about him as a player you would swear he was Jamarcus Russell.

He didn't pull anything out of his whole against the Pats, or the last 3 games of the season. Make them be noticed? I'm sure a decen GM has his sights set higher than "be on main news story of ESPN every day." How can he develop if he repeatedly bombs? He needs to win games like every other QB, teams can't rely on him to do that.

davyjose wrote: »

I don't get this. Even if Tebow takes a team far beyond their capabilities, they are still better off without him?

Logic fail.

There's more to being a QB than a quick release and throwing a tight spiral.

There's also more to being a QB than running around in the backfield and being considered an amazing college QB. Vast majority of things needed to be a good QB are things Tebow fails at. It's why no team is willing to touch him with barge poll.

poldebruin

Chucky the tree wrote: »

He needs to win games like every other QB, teams can't rely on him to do that.

....actually, that's the one thing Tebow can actually claim to do!

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Vast majority of things needed to be a good QB are things Tebow fails at. It's why no team is willing to touch him with barge poll.

quite possibly it's one of the reasons, but there's no doubt he would bring some unwanted baggage, media attention, affect team chemistry/dynamics (for good and bad) and pressure/expectation to start, the complete overhaul of the playbook and personnel.....all of these things taken together probably means he won't get a starting gig (and possibly any gig) in the NFL.

All that said, he can and has won in the NFL (in 14 starts)

If Tebow wasn't "Tebow" and had won in the regular season with a losing team followed by a win in the playoffs, I think he would have been picked up and given a shot somewhere else.

"if Tebow does not start another game, he will be just the second quarterback in NFL history to start and win a playoff game, remain active after that season and never start another game."

Paully D

Paully D wrote: »

The unfortunate thing for Tebow is that while I'm sure some teams would like to take him on as a bit of a project (I've seen the Patriots mentioned a couple of times) so he can learn to read a defense from a top QB and improve on his mechanics etc, the media craze and unwanted attention that would be heaped on whatever team takes him has to put them off. They will all see a Tebow project as not worth it for the amount of hassle it will cause.

Change the name on the back of his shirt and keep his achievements (turning a 1-4 team into an 8-8 team who won a playoff game against the Steelers) in the game to date and I'd argue there would be many teams who would take him on as backup project, but the inevitable outside intrusion isn't worth it for them.

You only have to look at the amount of players who get into trouble off the field but still pick up teams to know that if you're good enough to start in the league you will usually always pick something up, but teams aren't going to do that for what would be a backup QB who still needs to develop certain aspects of his game. I'm not comparing Tebow to people who get in trouble off the field by the way, moreso the similar media coverage that would occur if a team picked Tebow up.

Seems this is the case:

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/nfl--tim-tebow-blackballed-by-nfl-teams-because-of-cult-like-following--media-frenzy-054940389.html

"He seems like a great guy to have on a team, and I'd be tempted to bring him in as our backup," one NFC head coach told me Wednesday. "But it's just not worth dealing with all the stuff that comes with it."

Or, in the words of one AFC head coach to whom I spoke recently: "You don't want to put up with the circus."

Syferus

A lot of weak managers and HCs out there. It'll take someone from the Hoodie class of disregard for the media to get Tebow the roster spot he very obviously deserves.

TO.

Syferus wrote: »

A lot of weak managers and HCs out there. It'll take someone from the Hoodie class of disregard for the media to get Tebow the roster spot he very obviously deserves.

So you are making that assumption and sweeping generalisation on the quotes from 2 unnamed coaches. Have you thought that maybe some of them just don't want him either because they don't believe he is good enough.

Simple facts are even if you are right no team wants to deal with the circus made out of someone who might never be a starter for them or is playing a backup role. Also the fan circus created because of it also is enough to keep teams off him.

Sad fact for Tebow is that even if a team like the Patriots are not willing to take him he probably will struggle to ever get a roster spot. The Pats don't deal with the media nonsense and even they are wary of him. Personally I would like to see the Pats bench him and work with him and see if he can be the QB that some people keep clinging to but it wont happen.

Chucky the tree

It's clearly not just a case of the him bringing his circus. There was reports of a number of teams being willing to trade if he switched position - so clearly some teams simply don't rate him as a QB.

Phoenix Park

TO. wrote: »

So you are making that assumption and sweeping generalisation on the quotes from 2 unnamed coaches. Have you thought that maybe some of them just don't want him either because they don't believe he is good enough.

Simple facts are even if you are right no team wants to deal with the circus made out of someone who might never be a starter for them or is playing a backup role. Also the fan circus created because of it also is enough to keep teams off him.

Sad fact for Tebow is that even if a team like the Patriots are not willing to take him he probably will struggle to ever get a roster spot. The Pats don't deal with the media nonsense and even they are wary of him. Personally I would like to see the Pats bench him and work with him and see if he can be the QB that some people keep clinging to but it wont happen.

Would this not be a complete waste of time for the Pats though? I was very surprised to see the (slight) media link of Tebow to the Pats as surely there is no team that needs him less, be it at backup QB or as a tight end. Pats are awesome at TE and they must really see something in Mallett to have held on to him this year as it was such a poor QB draft maybe they could have got really good value by trading him.
Is it Gronkowski's and Hernandez's history of injuries that has brought this speculation on? The idea of Tebow going to New England seems ludicrous to me. I do hope he gets a game somewhere though, seems like a likeable guy, i don't think there would be such a media circus with him anymore, outside of New york. The media seem to have moved on a bit as far as i can tell. He just isn't good enough to start as QB anywhere i reckon, but he's built like a brick shiiithouse. I hope he entertains the idea of playing TE for someone..anyone, anyone who would take him that is.

TO.

Phoenix Park wrote: »

Would this not be a complete waste of time for the Pats though? I was very surprised to see the (slight) media link of Tebow to the Pats as surely there is no team that needs him less, be it at backup QB or as a tight end. Pats are awesome at TE and they must really see something in Mallett to have held on to him this year as it was such a poor QB draft maybe they could have got really good value by trading him.
Is it Gronkowski's and Hernandez's history of injuries that has brought this speculation on? The idea of Tebow going to New England seems ludicrous to me. I do hope he gets a game somewhere though, seems like a likeable guy, i don't think there would be such a media circus with him anymore, outside of New york. The media seem to have moved on a bit as far as i can tell. He just isn't good enough to start as QB anywhere i reckon, but he's built like a brick shiiithouse. I hope he entertains the idea of playing TE for someone..anyone, anyone who would take him that is.

This is all down to my personal opinion and not the media. In fact there has been little suggestion that the Pats would take him. I never said anything about Tebow being a Tight End though.

Personally I feel if any team is going to take a low risk option on Tebow it would be the Pats. We tried to ship Mallet during the draft and failed so it is clear Mallet is going to look to walk or be shipped within the next 12 months for first team action.

If the Pats took Tebow they could sit him behind Brady and Mallet and pay him next to nothing to do so. And then finally work with him the way it should have gone from day 1 for him. All round if that happened it would be low risk if Tebow failed to fix his issues while being a backup behind Brady and Mallet. I do feel if any team gets the best out of him while fixing him it would be the Pats.

Going back to the Pats Tight End situation. Gronk Hernandez Ballard Fells and Hoomanawanui on the roster already so no need for Tebow to be a tight end.

The idea of Tebow going to New England seems ludicrous to me

Why is it ludicrous though? Tebow is now at the point where no one wants him unless he changes position. Most NFL teams carry 3-4 QBs on their roster. Seems to me you could pay Tebow peanuts to be a backup QB at the moment if you are willing to deal with the nonsense around it. The Pats brush off the nonsense and they have been known to get the best out of players who put the work in. Tebow fits the bill in this scenario. If he can fix himself while bench warming behind one of the games greats for peanuts, it's hardly ludicrous.

Phoenix Park

TO. wrote: »

This is all down to my personal opinion and not the media. In fact there has been little suggestion that the Pats would take him. I never said anything about Tebow being a Tight End though.

Personally I feel if any team is going to take a low risk option on Tebow it would be the Pats. We tried to ship Mallet during the draft and failed so it is clear Mallet is going to look to walk or be shipped within the next 12 months for first team action.

If the Pats took Tebow they could sit him behind Brady and Mallet and pay him next to nothing to do so. And then finally work with him the way it should have gone from day 1 for him. All round if that happened it would be low risk if Tebow failed to fix his issues while being a backup behind Brady and Mallet. I do feel if any team gets the best out of him while fixing him it would be the Pats.

Going back to the Pats Tight End situation. Gronk Hernandez Ballard Fells and Hoomanawanui on the roster already so no need for Tebow to be a tight end.



Why is it ludicrous though? Tebow is now at the point where no one wants him unless he changes position. Most NFL teams carry 3-4 QBs on their roster. Seems to me you could pay Tebow peanuts to be a backup QB at the moment if you are willing to deal with the nonsense around it. The Pats brush off the nonsense and they have been known to get the best out of players who put the work in. Tebow fits the bill in this scenario. If he can fix himself while bench warming behind one of the games greats for peanuts, it's hardly ludicrous.

It's just hard for me to see any scenario where a QB as bad as Tebow takes a snap for a side like the Pats. Maybe i've just grown to see them as too big a beast during the Brady years to see them entertain that. Besides, surely the guy takes a Canadian job over being third choice in the NFL, it would be different if he was second choice but he'd clearly be behind Mallett at the Pats. I just see nothing in it for him, and nothing in it for the Pats for whom he wouldn't be good enough even as a back up anyway. He would be better off doing college TV work, or preaching...or whatever he makes his future millions from

TO.

Phoenix Park wrote: »

It's just hard for me to see any scenario where a QB as bad as Tebow takes a snap for a side like the Pats. Maybe i've just grown to see them as too big a beast during the Brady years to see them entertain that. Besides, surely the guy takes a Canadian job over being third choice in the NFL, it would be different if he was second choice but he'd clearly be behind Mallett at the Pats. I just see nothing in it for him, and nothing in it for the Pats for whom he wouldn't be good enough even as a back up anyway. He would be better off doing college TV work, or preaching...or whatever he makes his future millions from

Thing is no one wants him not even the Canadians. Many of their teams have said he would only be a backup in a Pass happy league. But you missed my point. We are not talking about him starting right now. Lets face it Brady is far from done and Mallet probably wont stick around long enough to see Brady's departure.

You take Timmy for peanuts and try work with him over the next 3-5 years. It doesnt work no biggy you lose very little money and dump him. It works happy days you got a guy who is a born leader and you fixed his problems.

Lets face it no one wants him. Anyone who wants him want him to shift positions. He doesn't want to do that. So the more desperate he becomes of wanting to play QB bingo bango peanut time on the Pats bench.

eagle eye

TO. wrote: »

Thing is no one wants him not even the Canadians. Many of their teams have said he would only be a backup in a Pass happy league. But you missed my point. We are not talking about him starting right now. Lets face it Brady is far from done and Mallet probably wont stick around long enough to see Brady's departure.

You take Timmy for peanuts and try work with him over the next 3-5 years. It doesnt work no biggy you lose very little money and dump him. It works happy days you got a guy who is a born leader and you fixed his problems.

Lets face it no one wants him. Anyone who wants him want him to shift positions. He doesn't want to do that. So the more desperate he becomes of wanting to play QB bingo bango peanut time on the Pats bench.

I'm actually surprised we haven't taken him already. I'm sure Josh wants the chance to make him into what he believed he could be when he drafted him.

Jolly Red Giant

eagle eye wrote: »

I'm actually surprised we haven't taken him already. I'm sure Josh wants the chance to make him into what he believed he could be when he drafted him.

McDaniels drafted him because of the hype - nothing to do with Tebow's ability. McDumb gave up a second, third and fourth round picks to move up to take Tebow when he proably could have got him with the fourth rounder. Baltimore grabbed two decent TEs Dickson and Pitta with the picks they got from Denver. What a bloody waste.