British poppy: should the Irish commemorate people who fought for the British Empire?

Einhard

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Einhard, I would respect that but for the fact that give money to an organization which glorifies the British army, the whole poppy thing nowadays is hijacked in effect, to bolster support for Afganisthan and the like.

If the organization says it means x, if politicians say it means the same thing, if the media say it means the same thing, then I think its time for the Irish lad who wants to remember his granddad to get a new symbol.




Thats what it is sold as Einhard... and the cash goes to former British soldiers, for instance to Brits who served in northern Ireland. All the language re "noble sacrifice for their country" is totally at odds to why you say the majority wear the poppy for.

The poppy is all about glorifying the British army, and if a person objects to what the organization and the British govt says it stands for then they should not buy into it, literally, and should find a different way to commemorate their fallen relations or whatnot.

What you have said is basically that th majorities opinion on what the poppy stands for is totally at odds with what it is marketed with. If that is so they should stop buying them.

WT, you know as well as I do that what it's sold as can be entirely different from why the ordinary person in the street buys it. Millions of Britons marched against the Iraq. It's fairly likely that many of them went on, at some stage, to buy a poppy. I think it's stretching logic to state that that purchase somehow means that, afterall, they supported the war and, by extension, British imperialism.

Seanchai

Einhard wrote: »

Jesus Christ. Such anger. There's a difference between defending someone and not attacking them. That you don't seem to grasp this says a lot to be honest. You should really look to remedying that chip on your shoulder. It's ironic that the very people who most despise British imperialism are the very ones who can't seem to free themselves from its shackles.

Interesting choice of words: no doubt your own abundant displays of anger are really "passion". Clearly there's a difference between not defending somebody, and attacking them. It's also true that evil triumphs when good people do nothing (surely you should be au fait with a great conservative like Edmund Burke?). The deeds of the British Empire, and those who fought for it, do not deserve to be whitewashed or sanitised in this annual orgy of poppy "commemoration". That people who refuse to cow-toe to this sanitisation of imperialist warmongering are subject to vitriolic attacks by people like you actually says much more about you and people like you who get upset when the deeds of the British Empire are not washed over. This is the sort of poppy fascism Jon Snow was repelled at, and which every person who appears on British tv nowadays has to subscribe to.

I'm quite comfortable in maintaining my belief that British imperialism had an overwhelmingly negative influence on Ireland and the world. As such, I have no intention of honouring the mercenaries who fought for British supremacy over the Irish people and others. These poppies commemorate British oppression against indigenous populations around the world. They do not, and never have, commemorated peace or freedom for the many, many victims of British imperialism.

Wolfe Tone

Einhard wrote: »

WT, you know as well as I do that what it's sold as can be entirely different from why the ordinary person in the street buys it. Millions of Britons marched against the Iraq. It's fairly likely that many of them went on, at some stage, to buy a poppy. I think it's stretching logic to state that that purchase somehow means that, afterall, they supported the war and, by extension, British imperialism.

That makes no sense Einhard. Thats like you wanting to remember and commemorate the 1916 rising by giving money to a support system/fund for ex provos and their families.

Its daft, John from Cork who wants to remember his grandad with a poppy is giving money to ex (and current) British soldiers and their families who served in the North and elsewhere, just daft. He should buy his poppies somewhere else shouldnt he?

KeithAFC

No (I'm British/not Irish)

this overbearing and incessant British cultural tradition of glorification of violence and death?

Sounds like the easter lily. It most likely shouldn't be but since Sinn Fein have hi-jacked it (along with the Irish language), that is how many people view the lily now.

philologos

No (I'm Irish)

Seanchai wrote: »

1) Yes, why be a "dogmatic republican" opposed to warmongering, when you're obviously much more comfortable being a tribal British nationalist engaged in this overbearing and incessant British cultural tradition of glorification of violence and death?

I'm Irish, one doesn't have to be British to live in London.
I'm not interested in glorifying anyone's death.
What I am interested in is remembering the tragedy that is war.

Seanchai wrote: »

2) Let us be clear about this: are you saying the British went around the world, oppressed indigenous populations and installed racist supremacist rulers in the newly conquered areas for the good of the locals?

I'm saying that some of what happened in the British Empire was for good while much was for bad. I do this because that's closer to reality than the interpretation that you've bought into.

Seanchai wrote: »

3) As for your chimerical contention about "good" coming from the British Empire, well Nazism brought much good to Germany such as the autobahns and indeed to the modern Jewish population which has its own state called Israel largely because of world opinion as a result of what Nazism did. But nice attempt at straw-manning a discussion with the standard fallback lines of the marginalised Europhobic subculture in Britain which is most keen on this poppy stuff.

I'm confused as to what you're getting out here. There's nothing chimerical at all involved in saying that there was both good and bad in the British Empire. The absurdity lies in saying that there was absolutely no good in it.

There's also nothing Europhobic about the poppy, and I don't see why there would be considering that it arose out of marking an end to a European War.

I'm afraid there is no "strawmanning" involved.

Seanchai wrote: »

Would you care to elaborate on this? Do you really believe the conflict in the north is about theology/religion/sectarianism rather than the natives being rather peeved at being robbed and oppressed by a British settler-colonial community for centuries?

It's about tribal hatred between both native Irish and settler. It comes on both sides and to say that it doesn't is just revisionism.

Seanchai wrote: »

As I said, that's what one of your countrymen once described as double-think. "Love the sinner; hate the sin" thinking is a cop-out. If they fought for the British Empire, they were central to the continuation of the inhumanity and exploitation which underpinned it. They do not deserve to be honoured simply because they wore a British uniform while murdering somebody. That's the sort of tribal thinking which underpins these poppy apologists.

Again I'm Irish.

Although, I wouldn't agree with "Love the sinner, hate the sin" because of any nationality. I would agree with it because I believe in Jesus Christ, but that's for another day.

I don't believe that one has to honour British troops by wearing the poppy. Personally, I think it is a good opportunity for the world to remember the ultimate futility of war.

Seanchai wrote: »

you say the same about Germans who want to "remember" their dead who fought for the Third Reich?

Yes, I would. I support remembering the tragedy of war rather than glorifying the actions of particular individuals.

Cú Giobach

philologos wrote: »

I'm saying that some of what happened in the British Empire was for good while much was for bad. I do this because that's closer to reality than the interpretation that you've bought into.

Things were done for the good of Britain herself, whether it was good or bad for the occupied people was irrelevant with respect to this. The priority as with all Empires was for the good of the Imperialists.

It's about tribal hatred between both native Irish and settler. It comes on both sides and to say that it doesn't is just revisionism.

There is always hatred when someone tries to "settle" on another's land and impose their will irrespective of the will of the natives. As in any other example around the world, the blame with regard to the ensuing conflict is with the invader (unless of course you are of the mindset that people should just accept invasion, "lie down" and accept it, in which case it would be wrong to commemorate those British who died fighting against Germany).

Fratton Fred

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Einhard, I would respect that but for the fact that give money to an organization which glorifies the British army, the whole poppy thing nowadays is hijacked in effect, to bolster support for Afganisthan and the like.

If the organization says it means x, if politicians say it means the same thing, if the media say it means the same thing, then I think its time for the Irish lad who wants to remember his granddad to get a new symbol.




Thats what it is sold as Einhard... and the cash goes to former British soldiers, for instance to Brits who served in northern Ireland. All the language re "noble sacrifice for their country" is totally at odds to why you say the majority wear the poppy for.

The poppy is all about glorifying the British army, and if a person objects to what the organization and the British govt says it stands for then they should not buy into it, literally, and should find a different way to commemorate their fallen relations or whatnot.

What you have said is basically that th majorities opinion on what the poppy stands for is totally at odds with what it is marketed with. If that is so they should stop buying them.

It doesn't commemorate the British army, it isn't about the organisation, it is about the people.

getz

No (I'm British/not Irish)

isent it ironic that there is a group of republicans banging on about the british being terrorists,as if the republican movement is boy scout club,the problem is that their dirty little secret is out,and the people in ireland and the UK no longer support terrorist groups,loyalist or republican,those irishmen who died in the great war did so for ireland as it was part of the union then,no one is telling anyone to wear a poppy,but there are a lot of republicans on these posts saying not to

NinjaK

Step23 wrote: »

Stupid comment, did over 200 thousand Jews fight in the German Army too?

Thats irrelevant, if they did they would be traitors. The Irish who fought for the British were and are traitors.

ejmaztec

NinjaK wrote: »

Thats irrelevant, if they did they would be traitors. The Irish who fought for the British were and are traitors.

Even the ones who fought the Nazis?

Tigerbaby

No (I'm Irish)

NinjaK wrote: »

Thats irrelevant, if they did they would be traitors. The Irish who fought for the British were and are traitors.

so you think that those who fought in World War I were traitors? Many of these people thought they were assisting Ireland on the road to Home Rule.

Be careful whom you are calling traitors.

NinjaK

ejmaztec wrote: »

Even the ones who fought the Nazis?

Of course.

ejmaztec

NinjaK wrote: »

Of course.

Only Kev would say something as daft as that.:P

NinjaK

Tigerbaby wrote: »

so you think that those who fought in World War I were traitors? Many of these people thought they were assisting Ireland on the road to Home Rule.

Be careful whom you are calling traitors.

Im sorry but if fighting for the enemy is not considered being a traitor then I dont know what is. Especially considering the history

NinjaK

ejmaztec wrote: »

Only Kev would say something as daft as that.:P

Noffles

No (I'm British/not Irish)

As much as I hate this thread and the vitriol in it against the Poppy wearers, it does give me so many answers, when wearing my own Poppy in my office , to the people who ask why..... normally Iwould just say "Fukc off"..

AudreyHepburn

No (I'm British/not Irish)

As young man of eighteen my great-grandfather fought on the battlefield of Ypres in WWI in an Irish regiment of the British Army ( which one escapes me just now). He survived the war but lost a leg from gangrene after being hit by shrapnel. We still have his medals and discharge papers.

Do I see him as a traitor? No absolutly not, I see him as a brave young man who put his own life on the line for those many of his peers would have seen as enemies and was lucky to sacrifice only his leg. I see no reason on this earth why he shouldn't be remembered.

My grandfather ( his son) says he never talked about the war but the little we know is to me fascinating and it makes me proud to have him as a relative.

All these people bleatting on about opression and occupation and so on really need to take a good long look at themselves. Being stuck in the past and refusing to move on is exactly why people PC Ronan Kerr are still dying up North. Please please please just let your ridiculous prejudaces go and move into the 21st century.

getz

No (I'm British/not Irish)

Tigerbaby wrote: »

so you think that those who fought in World War I were traitors? Many of these people thought they were assisting Ireland on the road to Home Rule.

Be careful whom you are calling traitors.

dont blame him,most in the republic do not know that those irishmen who died in WW1 did so with the blessing of the irish people and all political parties,its a area that is not talked about by those who have a anti brit agenda

arybvtcw0eolkf

No (I'm Irish)

Noffles wrote: »

As much as I hate this thread and the vitriol in it against the Poppy wearers, it does give me so many answers, when wearing my own Poppy in my office , to the people who ask why..... normally Iwould just say "Fukc off"..

Go away out of that, you tell people to 'Fvck off' for asking a question?.

Hard to believe tbh.

Noffles

No (I'm British/not Irish)

Stefan Weak Paw wrote: »

Go away out of that, you tell people to 'Fvck off' for asking a question?.

Hard to believe tbh.

It's always a loaded question, they know why I'm wearing and are asking it to provoke a response... And it's not an angry "fukc off" more of a "fukc off, you know why I'm wearing it"

And to be honest there are far more things that are hard to believe on this thread than what I have typed.

FetchTheGin

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

really need to take a good long look at themselves. Being stuck in the past

Yet you agree with wearing a poppy, precisely why would a wearing a poppy symbolise not "being stuck in the past"? Surely that is exactly the reason for it?

arybvtcw0eolkf

No (I'm Irish)

Noffles wrote: »

It's always a loaded question, they know why I'm wearing and are asking it to provoke a response... And it's not an angry "fukc off" more of a "fukc off, you know why I'm wearing it"

And to be honest there are far more things that are hard to believe on this thread than what I have typed.

Ah cool, I get you now.

I fk'ing hate loaded questions.

Fratton Fred

FetchTheGin wrote: »

Yet you agree with wearing a poppy, precisely why would a wearing a poppy symbolise not "being stuck in the past"? Surely that is exactly the reason for it?

There is a difference between recognising and remembering the past and being stuck in it.

If the Poppy signified being stuck in the past, you wouldn't see German, British and French heads of state laying poppy wreaths at remembrance ceremonies.

AudreyHepburn

No (I'm British/not Irish)

FetchTheGin wrote: »

Yet you agree with wearing a poppy, precisely why would a wearing a poppy symbolise not "being stuck in the past"? Surely that is exactly the reason for it?

Wearing the Poppy is about remembering the past ( and on a personal level my great-grandfather ) not being stubbornly stuck in it.

But I think you know that really tbh.

To quote a wise old lady who not so long visited this country with her husband;

" We must bow to the past but not be bound by it"

slapbangwallop

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

As young man of eighteen my great-grandfather fought on the battlefield of Ypres in WWI in an Irish regiment of the British Army ( which one escapes me just now). He survived the war but lost a leg from gangrene after being hit by shrapnel. We still have his medals and discharge papers.

Do I see him as a traitor? No absolutly not, I see him as a brave young man who put his own life on the line for those many of his peers would have seen as enemies and was lucky to sacrifice only his leg. I see no reason on this earth why he shouldn't be remembered.

My grandfather ( his son) says he never talked about the war but the little we know is to me fascinating and it makes me proud to have him as a relative.

All these people bleatting on about opression and occupation and so on really need to take a good long look at themselves. Being stuck in the past and refusing to move on is exactly why people PC Ronan Kerr are still dying up North. Please please please just let your ridiculous prejudaces go and move into the 21st century.

They never talked about it because they were embarrassed. Thats the truth. Many signed up for that Home Rule would be delivered, more signed up because there was feck all work and the British Army has always been kind enough to shell out a shilling for Paddy cannon fodder.

I find it strange that you accuse the "anti Poppy brigade" as being struck in the past whilst you advocate an outward display commemorating a war that took place 100 years ago.

I'll leave this post by highlighting one of the most ignorant uneducated sentances typed out in all these pages "All these people bleatting on about opression and occupation and so on really need to take a good long look at themselves"

Gobsmacking ignorance!

Since you are so fond of "remembering" just remember that when you are acquire your poppy you are remembering all those British soliders that murdered innocent kids on Bloody Sunday, every **** in the Black and Tans that terrorised this country and brainless mongs trapsing out to around the world to secure Britain's economic interests.

Well done!

And this is coming from someone whose grandfather and uncle "served the British Army" during WWII.

ejmaztec

slapbangwallop wrote: »

They never talked about it because they were embarrassed. Thats the truth. Many signed up for that Home Rule would be delivered, more signed up because there was feck all work and the British Army has always been kind enough to shell out a shilling for Paddy cannon fodder.

I find it strange that you accuse the "anti Poppy brigade" as being struck in the past whilst you advocate an outward display commemorating a war that took place 100 years ago.

I'll leave this post by highlighting one of the most ignorant uneducated sentances typed out in all these pages "All these people bleatting on about opression and occupation and so on really need to take a good long look at themselves"

Gobsmacking ignorance!

Since you are so fond of "remembering" just remember that when you are acquire your poppy you are remembering all those British soliders that murdered innocent kids on Bloody Sunday, every **** in the Black and Tans that terrorised this country and brainless mongs trapsing out to around the world to secure Britain's economic interests.

Well done!

And this is coming from someone whose grandfather and uncle "served the British Army" during WWII.

Using this word in a post fully negates everything that you have to say.

AudreyHepburn

No (I'm British/not Irish)

slapbangwallop wrote: »

They never talked about it because they were embarrassed. Thats the truth. Many signed up for that Home Rule would be delivered, more signed up because there was feck all work and the British Army has always been kind enough to shell out a shilling for Paddy cannon fodder.

I find it strange that you accuse the "anti Poppy brigade" as being struck in the past whilst you advocate an outward display commemorating a war that took place 100 years ago.

I'll leave this post by highlighting one of the most ignorant uneducated sentances typed out in all these pages "All these people bleatting on about opression and occupation and so on really need to take a good long look at themselves"

Gobsmacking ignorance!

Since you are so fond of "remembering" just remember that when you are acquire your poppy you are remembering all those British soliders that murdered innocent kids on Bloody Sunday, every **** in the Black and Tans that terrorised this country and brainless mongs trapsing out to around the world to secure Britain's economic interests.

Well done!

And this is coming from someone whose grandfather and uncle "served the British Army" during WWII.

Sigh.....you've missed my point completely.

I am neither ignorant or uneducated.......unless wanted keep my great-grandfather's memory alive is ignorant.

There is a difference between remember the past and being stuck in it. Your post is every bit as arrogant and ignorant as you claim mine to be.

You should be proud of your grandfather and uncle, not embarressed. I suggest it is you who needs to rethink your opinions, not me.

Fratton Fred

slapbangwallop wrote: »

They never talked about it because they were embarrassed. Thats the truth. Many signed up for that Home Rule would be delivered, more signed up because there was feck all work and the British Army has always been kind enough to shell out a shilling for Paddy cannon fodder.

I find it strange that you accuse the "anti Poppy brigade" as being struck in the past whilst you advocate an outward display commemorating a war that took place 100 years ago.

I'll leave this post by highlighting one of the most ignorant uneducated sentances typed out in all these pages "All these people bleatting on about opression and occupation and so on really need to take a good long look at themselves"

Gobsmacking ignorance!

Since you are so fond of "remembering" just remember that when you are acquire your poppy you are remembering all those British soliders that murdered innocent kids on Bloody Sunday, every **** in the Black and Tans that terrorised this country and brainless mongs trapsing out to around the world to secure Britain's economic interests.

Well done!

And this is coming from someone whose grandfather and uncle "served the British Army" during WWII.

The Black and Tans weren't British army. The Poppy doesn't represent them.

Cú Giobach

According to some on this forum those who commemorate Irish dead over the centuries are "stuck in the past" and those that commemorate British dead are "remembering the past".
Anyone see something odd about this?

slapbangwallop

ejmaztec wrote: »

Using this word in a post fully negates everything that you have to say.

Yeah of course it does yeah, thats logical.

If you can think of a better word for the braindead bullet catchers they drag in off the dole from sink estates in Wigan, Skipton and Jarrow on the promise of adventure and comradeship when the reality is that they will be sent to do the Army's dirty work and then dumped after their stint and good chance of ending up unemployed, bitter, homeless, dependant on drugs or with depression then fire ahead.