British poppy: should the Irish commemorate people who fought for the British Empire?

Fratton Fred

Seanchai wrote: »

:rolleyes: You could, of course, always go to a British forum if you're just expecting everybody to swallow this poppy stuff and dress over the barbarism of your country's empire, which they fought for. Home truths, eh.

Maybe you could just respect people's decision to either wear, or not wear a poppy.

Stop watching British tv and supporting a British football team and those horrible poppies will magically disappear.

Madam

No (I'm Irish)

I don't think most people in the UK even give a thought that the Irish would/should be offended by the poppy, in fact I think it would puzzle them immensly.

headmaster

No, we should not celebrate the fact that irish people fought with an army that desecrated our country. The irish who fought with the british army should be ashamed of themselves. This is only my opinion and is in reply to the original question. I appreciate others might have a different opinion, but they're wrong and not Irish.

Morlar

Madam wrote: »

I don't think most people in the UK even give a thought that the Irish would/should be offended by the poppy, in fact I think it would puzzle them immensly.

I think your post was already explained by this one :

Seanchai wrote: »

I don't think we need to commemorate the defeat of the British in order to object to the glorification of British imperialist savagery, the destruction of entire civilisations, which is being sanitised by all this poppy stuff. With all this glorification of their military past, the British are so far from having a healthy, honest relationship with their past it is terrifying.

Given that the poppy brigade is trying to sanitise their Empire's treatment of people, including the Irish, and expecting Irish people to wear their poppy commemorating their dead, it is obviously the right of an Irish person to call them on this attempt at rewriting history, this attempt to guilt the natives into joining them by commemorating the very oppressors of the said natives and their country over centuries.

Just because some brits might not understand (and some Loyalists pretend there was no issue to begin with) does not mean that Irish people should buy into that.

Morlar

headmaster wrote: »

No, we should not celebrate the fact that irish people fought with an army that desecrated our country. The irish who fought with the british army should be ashamed of themselves. This is only my opinion and is in reply to the original question. I appreciate others might have a different opinion, but they're wrong and not Irish.

I'd take the view that we should commemorate the Irish who fought in WWI while making an effort not to judge their actions in isolation from their context. Many believed it was for the good of Ireland, having been led to believe that it would result in Home Rule.

In any event there is simply no requirement to acknowledge and commemorate the Paras or the SAS or the British army who slaughtered Irish people in Ireland in order to commemorate the Irish who fought in WWI or WW2.

Those 2 things are not inextricably linked, it is only a political effort to make it a requirement to commemorate ALL british army or NONE.

There is another choice which is to reject the Royal British Legion Poppy while also respecting the Irish men who were led to slaughter in WWI.

CucaFace

Madam wrote: »

I don't think most people in the UK even give a thought that the Irish would/should be offended by the poppy, in fact I think it would puzzle them immensly.

But is that not part of the problem?

The fact they are only taught certain parts of their history?

The fact is if the poppy represents every soldier that ever died serving the British Empire it should not be accepted here regardless of how many Irish soldiers died in WW1 or WW2.

Or maybe we should create our own Remberance day here where we wear some flower to remember every single Irish person who has died at the hands of a British soldier either directly or indirectly over the past 800 years?

I wonder how that would go down with our British neighbours?

Fratton Fred

CucaFace wrote: »

But is that not part of the problem?

The fact they are only taught certain parts of their history?

The fact is if the poppy represents every soldier that ever died serving the British Empire it should not be accepted here regardless of how many Irish soldiers died in WW1 or WW2.

Or maybe we should create our own Remberance day here where we wear some flower to remember every single Irish person who has died at the hands of a British soldier either directly or indirectly over the past 800 years?

I wonder how that would go down with our British neighbours?

Maybe you should make a better effort at learning your own history before criticising the way it is taught in other countries. History lessons in Ireland are every bit as "Selective" as they are anywhere else.

ejmaztec

CucaFace wrote: »

But is that not part of the problem?

The fact they are only taught certain parts of their history?

The fact is if the poppy represents every soldier that ever died serving the British Empire it should not be accepted here regardless of how many Irish soldiers died in WW1 or WW2.

Or maybe we should create our own Remberance day here where we wear some flower to remember every single Irish person who has died at the hands of a British soldier either directly or indirectly over the past 800 years?

I wonder how that would go down with our British neighbours?

Then you'd have to have a remembrance day for the Irish people who died at the hands of other Irish people as well, because native Irish people were on both sides in most of the conflicts over the centuries. Some even assisted the protestant "god" King Billy in beating fellow Irishmen. Even more ironically, some on his side were catholics.

If there was a remembrance of the kind you suggested, the British people probably wouldn't know about it, or wouldn't care less if they did know.

Fratton Fred

Morlar wrote: »

There is another choice which is to reject the Royal British Legion Poppy while also respecting the Irish men who were led to slaughter in WWI.

Nail on head.

KeithAFC

No (I'm British/not Irish)

ejmaztec wrote: »

Then you'd have to have a remembrance day for the Irish people who died at the hands of other Irish people as well, because native Irish people were on both sides in most of the conflicts over the centuries. Some even assisted the protestant "god" King Billy in beating fellow Irishmen. Even more ironically, some on his side were catholics.

If there was a remembrance of the kind you suggested, the British people probably wouldn't know about it, or wouldn't care less if they did know.

The Aras remembers 1690 now, so that isn't really needed.

headmaster

[QUOTE=CucaFace.
Or maybe we should create our own Remberance day here where we wear some flower to remember every single Irish person who has died at the hands of a British soldier either directly or indirectly over the past 800 years?
I wonder how that would go down with our British neighbours? [/QUOTE]

CucaFace,
It's very simple, just wear the easter lilly and maybe the brits will wear it too, they'd be hypocrites though, don't you think?

LordSutch

No (I'm Irish)

CucaFace wrote: »

The fact is if the poppy represents every soldier that ever died serving the British Empire it should not be accepted here regardless of how many Irish soldiers died in WW1 or WW2.

All this talk of the 'British Empire' is so quaint, the old empire has long since gone, and the wearing of the poppy only came into being in the 1920's. Britain & Ireland fought together in the Great War, and so I can see no reason whatsoever why we should not respect the poppy as a symbolic reminder of all those who gave their lives, British & Irish alike. The poppy symbol itself is taken directly from the poppy fields of Flanders fields, where so many tens of thousands of Irish men died . . . . .

Nobody has to wear a poppy at Remembrance time, but I do think its a very sad refelection on some Irish people when they deliberately disparage the poppy & the memory of all those Irish men who were slaughtered in WWI & WWII, and if people want to wear a poppy respect them, but please don't put them down!

I'm out of this thread now, so until Remembrance day next year . . .

Goodbye.

Nothingbetter2d

No (I'm Irish)

lol if germany won the war... we might not be bankrupt

Nodin

LordSutch wrote: »

.........

Nobody has to wear a poppy at Remembrance time, but I do think its a very sad refelection on some Irish people when they deliberately disparage the poppy & the memory of all those Irish men who were slaughtered in WWI & WWII, and if people want to wear a poppy respect them, but please don't put them down!

...........

You might remember those words the next time you decide to have a pop at the 1916 rising.

LordSutch

No (I'm Irish)

Nodin wrote: »

You might remember those words the next time you decide to have a pop at the 1916 rising.

I thought Iwas being very accommodating in this years Poppy thread, and I dont think it was 'having a pop' at the 1916 rising at all, just pointing out that the Easter Lily like the Poppy can have negative conotations, (if viewed in a certain light). Hopefully going forward we've all mellowed, and if you wear the Easter Lily then that's cool, and I can wear my Poppy too.

From post#855

LordSutch wrote: »

I am wearing the Poppy to commemorate my grandfather + the 50,000 other Irish men who never came home. Like any symbol there are negative aspects connected too, take the easter Lily for example, it is another symbol that I respect, but of course there is also a catalogue of negativity connected to it. I won't bother listing them here, but if somebody goes to the bother of weaing an easter Lily then they feel strongly enough about the symbol, possibly because a grandfather or uncle was one of the 300 or so people who died that week in 1916, & that's fine by me.

DeBrugha

No because people from the 6 counties got conned because they said if they fight in the world war there will be a united Ireland.

old hippy

DeBrugha wrote: »

No because people from the 6 counties got conned because they said if they fight in the world war there will be a united Ireland.

Who's "they" again & what was the exact wording of this promise/document?

Batsy

No (I'm British/not Irish)

Madam wrote: »

I don't think most people in the UK even give a thought that the Irish would/should be offended by the poppy

And even if we did it wouldn't stop us from wearing them.

DeBrugha

Who's "they" again

The British obviously...

Nodin

LordSutch wrote: »

I thought Iwas being very accommodating in this years Poppy thread, and I dont think it was 'having a pop' at the 1916 rising at all, just pointing out that the Easter Lily like the Poppy can have negative conotations, (if viewed in a certain light).......

Odd.

In my head, when somebody says that a candidate would lose their vote if they have a favourable view of the rising (you and Norris), that they would, if they were there, take up arms against same (you in a time machine), that they regarded the whole thing as a "terrorist operation".....that would - taken in total - strike me as 'disparaging' all those involved. It actually looks like the exact kind of thing you were saying was a "sad reflection" on "some Irish people".

LordSutch

No (I'm Irish)

Nodin wrote: »

Odd.

In my head, when somebody says that a candidate would lose their vote if they have a favourable view of the rising (you and Norris), that they would, if they were there, take up arms against same (you in a time machine), that they regarded the whole thing as a "terrorist operation".....that would - taken in total - strike me as 'disparaging' all those involved. It actually looks like the exact kind of thing you were saying was a "sad reflection" on "some Irish people".

Strange.

Obviously in 'your head' is not the same as being in my head, because in this thread about the 'British poppy' (as the OP describes it) I have been nothing but conciliatory towards those who would wear the Easter Lily. That said, if there was another thread about the rights & wrongs of the rising or the Great War, then indeed I would, as you well know 'get stuck in'. This thread however is about the poppy to commemorate all those tens of thousands of Irish men who lost their lives in the Great War & WWII, and I think it only right that those of us who wish to commemorate their name do so as we have always done, by wearing the poppy this time of year. If others wear the easter Lily then thats fine too, they have just as much right to commemorate the fallen from the 1916 Easter Rising.

Nodin

LordSutch wrote: »

Strange.

Obviously in 'your head' (.......)1916 Easter Rising.

I'll quote this again -

Nobody has to wear a poppy at Remembrance time, but I do think its a very sad refelection on some Irish people when they deliberately disparage the poppy & the memory of all those Irish men who were slaughtered in WWI & WWII, and if people want to wear a poppy respect them, but please don't put them down!

You're asking people to display an attitude that you yourself do not display.

LordSutch

No (I'm Irish)

Nodin wrote: »

You're asking people to display an attitude that you yourself do not display.

I'll just refer you back to #1372

BYE.

old hippy

DeBrugha wrote: »

The British obviously...

The British people? The British Govt? The British Army? The British Newsagents association?

And once more - what was the exact wording of this promise/document?

Morlar

old hippy wrote: »

The British people? The British Govt? The British Army? The British Newsagents association?

And once more - what was the exact wording of this promise/document?

Do you really believe that all political intrigue throughout history is written & published in clear black and white ? All politicians promises, proposals, discussion points, inferences, hints, insinuations etc., Or just in this particular case?

My view is either you are being naiive or disingenous here. Those would be the two options & in my view neither is particularly good.

old hippy

Morlar wrote: »

Do you really believe that all political intrigue throughout history is written & published in clear black and white ? All politicians promises, proposals, discussion points, inferences, hints, insinuations etc., Or just in this particular case?

My view is either you are being naiive or disingenous here. Those would be the two options & in my view neither is particularly good.

I was rather hoping DeBrugha would reply but thanks for the insight.

DeBrugha is being very vague and general about "The British" but I tend to find that a lot from the uberpats. Lost of barely concealed rage and ire. But they often can't articulate the hatreds.

Cathal O

I feel the Poppy is a symbol of fighting for England. Simple, however if Irish people fought in that war on the basis they believed it would further the Irish cause through Home Rule etc then the Irish Lilly represents them aswell. We remember our war dead through the lilly including all persons who fought to further the Irish cause regardless of that being through IRA activity OR by fighting on any other front. So in short, NO the poppy shuld not be a symbol for irish fighters