British poppy: should the Irish commemorate people who fought for the British Empire?

Dionysus

Grrrr - I hate this thread! The battlefield attracts the warriors, as they say.

A straightforward question: should they?

This thread is dedicated to Fratton Fred (whose post today inspired it), Lord Sutch, Batsy and some of our other British-born posters who expect Irish people to accept their political symbols without question and get rather defensive when they don't.

I don't commemorate anything really, and can't abide the glorification of war and this desperate tabloidesque quest for "heroes" ('Sad is the land that needs heroes'- Bertolt Brecht), but if I were looking for heroes I'm sure I'd find plenty to honour in Irish history who fought for something more noble than British imperialism. I can't stand war films and military history is the least interesting type of history for me. I reckon there are very few "heroes" in the world, and fewer still in armies. Most people do what they do out of self-interest. And if somebody is born in Ireland it doesn't make him/her automatically worthy of commemorating, which seems to be the general idea behind those who push for these Irish-born British soldiers to be commemorated here.

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It's that time of year again when preparations for Britain's Poppy Day Month get under way once again. Reading Frank McNally in today's Irish Times it seems there has already been a "National Heroes Day" set up, the first of which is today, 'Trafalgar Day', and is given support by the British Prime Minister who "fully endorse any project that encourages community participation and increases knowledge and support for our Service Personnel." All this commemoration of British imperialist warmongering seems to be kicking off earlier each year.

Do you think people, who happened to have been born in Ireland, who fought for the British Empire's forces should be commemorated by Irish people for that? Do you think people, who happened to have been born in Ireland, should be commemorated for murder, oppression and inhumanity in other professions which they entered? If yes to the former but no to the latter, how do you reconcile both? Do you believe the British Empire was some "greater good" that civilised the world?

Should people be "commemorated" by Irish people for doing something, regardless of what that thing is, because they were born in Ireland? That sounds like dangerous thinking. The British poppy commemorates, according to the website of its organisers: "all generations of the Armed Forces". In other words, wearing the British poppy commemorates those members of the British forces who "fought" in Croke Park, Balbriggan, Derry, Trim, Cork, Galway, Antrim, Roscommon, Longford and so on. It is not selective commemoration: it is wholesale commemoration of all people who "fought" for the British state against native populations anywhere in the planet. Aside from all the British murders in Ireland throughout the centuries, the British poppy also commemorates all those British soldiers who were party to the murder of tens of thousands of women and children in the British concentration camps in South Africa at the start of the 20th century, and those who managed the "enclosed villages" during the Mau Mau revolt in Kenya in the 1950s which had 1 million people at their worst point.

PS: Before anybody starts, the red poppy commemorates only those people who fought in the forces of the British Empire and then British Commonwealth countries. The French, for instance, have a blue poppy. The US, Germany and Russia have none at all. It is not "an international symbol" beyond countries in the British (haha - another sensitive topic) Commonwealth, no matter what Lord Sutch and company try and contend.

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Take it away oh fine, erudite denizens of Afterhours.

That_Guy

Ah this time of year again.

Couldn't give a toss either way to be honest.

Artur Foden

No (I'm British/not Irish)

No harm commemorating Irish citizens and descendants who fought in any conflict for another army if you ask me.

Kranium

No (I'm Irish)

I couldnt care less, people should get to choose
However I've done it in the past and am not ashamed

pablomakaveli

No (I'm Irish)

A lot of Irish people have ancestors who fought in WWI so there should be no problem in commerating those men and women if they choose to do so.

If you dont like the poppy then ignore it. It isnt being forced on anyone here.

sgb

Is this still such a big deal. Whatever makes people happy

FetchTheGin

I would rather not commemorate an empire responsible for the destruction of my country and oppression of my ancestors.

Edit: I wouldn't begrudge anyone who does commemorate though.

super_furry

No (I'm Irish)

I've a question, why does it annoy you and others with a similar viewpoint if people wear a poppy?

CatFromHue

The frank stupidity of War is brought home by the poppy to me. I'm not sure if it's because it's red or because in fields of battle where so many died it was the only flower to grow afterwards.

I don't wear one myself but have no problem with others doing so. Alot of Irish guys died over there and I don't view republicanism as being anti British. Which is what this argument usually boils down to.

orourkeda

No (I'm Irish)

If people chooses to do so then let them

My name is URL

Even though some of my ancestors died fighting at Somme I wouldn't wear a Poppy. Each to their own, but if sticking a plastic flower on your lapel is your idea of remembrance and respect then it's pretty shallow. It's also way too politicised for my liking.

Dionysus

super_furry wrote: »

I've a question, why does it annoy you and others with a similar viewpoint if people wear a poppy?

Why would it annoy you and others with a similar viewpoint if people commemorate IRA volunteers?

If that was directed at me, I think I fully explained my position in the op.

charlemont

No, My family members didn't die in the fields of France for the British Empire, They died in those fields to put food on the table..

KeithAFC

No (I'm British/not Irish)

Don't see why not. The 16th Irish division was a great division.

Gaunty

No (I'm Irish)

Honestly i wish us Irish could get this deep dark psychological scar from our national mindset about the British and what they did in the past. Move on, enjoy life for what it is today and what it will be in the future for our country. Commemorate the people who gained our freedom yes but don't let the past define who we are as a people now and govern our thoughts in the present day.

If the British are remembering their previous armed forces they have every right as their own country. If some Irish people wish to support that with poppies because they had ancestors who died in the British army then that is understandable. What effect it has on me or you or any other average joe soap Irish person around the country whether they do or not? Does it really bother you in your day to day goings on that much?

strobe

I'm going to wear a violet on my shirt at this time of year to commemorate all the people that have had to put up with this exact same thread being posted every year at this time.

(Why a violet? 'cause violets rock, clearly.)

Dionysus

charlemont wrote: »

No, My family members didn't die in the fields of France for the British Empire, They died in those fields to put food on the table..

The same can be said for members of the British forces in Cork in 1920 or in the Boer War in 1902 or....can we even Godwin the thread this soon and mention all those German soldiers in WWII?

PS: In reality somebody fought for, and died for, the expansion and consolidation of British power in lands beyond Britain. I think it's safe to say that the people who fought in its forces are the people who in real terms did.

pablomakaveli

No (I'm Irish)

Dionysus wrote: »

Why would it annoy you and others with a similar viewpoint if people commemorate IRA volunteers?

If that was directed at me, I think I fully explained my position in the op.

Well me personally, i've no problem with people wearing the Easter lily to commerate the Rising but i dont like the fact it seems to be hijacked by Sinn Fein.

super_furry

No (I'm Irish)

Dionysus wrote: »

Why would it annoy you and others with a similar viewpoint if people commemorate IRA volunteers?

If that was directed at me, I think I fully explained my position in the op.

Not in the slightest. I see people walk around, wearing their easter lillies and it never even enters my head that it's something I need to be concerned or annoyed by.

I've never seen anyone been threatened, insulted or started on for wearing a lilly. Can't say the same for people who choose to wear a poppy.

My name is URL

Poll question is a bit loaded tbh. Maybe the question should be -

Should the Irish be expected to commemorate people who fought for the British Empire?

To which my answer would be no.

IcedOut

If I wanted to remember and respect the dead I would visit their graves and say a prayer

St.Spodo

If they have relatives who died fighting in the British Army, or are sympathetic to their cause, let them wear it. I respect anyone's right to do so, but I wouldn't wear it due to its connotations with British jingoism.

Kranium

No (I'm Irish)

I'm not sure why people are opposed to it completely and why there are people who feel they have to wear it

planetX

No (I'm Irish)

It's no different to daffodil day - money from the sale of poppies goes to support veterans. It's a charity not a political statement, except that wearing one here means you've been in uk recently and haven't washed your coat.

Dionysus

KeithAFC wrote: »

Don't see why not. The 16th Irish division was a great division.

Keith! Welcome to the thread.:D

Ah, the 16th Irish, otherwise known as Kitchener's Mob - would that be any connection to one Horatio Kitchener, the British commander responsible for the murder of tens of thousands of women and children in concentration camps during the Second Boer War? Are he and his allies really worth "commemorating"?

Judgement Day

My name is URL wrote: »

Even though some of my ancestors died fighting at Somme I wouldn't wear a Poppy. Each to their own, but if sticking a plastic flower on your lapel is your idea of remembrance and respect then it's pretty shallow. It's also way too politicised for my liking.

The poppies aren't doled out free and the funds raised by their sale go towards ex-servicemen and their dependents, so it's more than an act of commemoration. Anyway, I fail to see why anybody should object as it's not compulsory.

Coriolanus

No (I'm Irish)

Sure It was practically the British and Irish empire there for a while.

Kranium

No (I'm Irish)

I dont like the idea of contestants on Xfactor having to wear them

MungBean

If people want to they should but personally I wouldnt. I would wear/buy something to commemorate all people that died in the wars though.

super_furry

No (I'm Irish)

Personally I think the British Legion is a worthy charity that do some great work and are deserving of support.

My name is URL

Judgement Day wrote: »

The poppies aren't doled out free and the funds raised by their sale go towards ex-servicemen and their dependents, so it's more than an act of commemoration.

True, and that's certainly a noble thing. There are benevolence funds that people can donate to directly.

Royal Navy
RAF
Army

If I was going to donate anything it'd be through those channels.