British poppy: should the Irish commemorate people who fought for the British Empire?

philologos

No (I'm Irish)

gurramok wrote: »

Its offensive as their funds help the killers of Irish people murdered by the British Army in Northern Ireland no matter what jurisdiction those killers were from. People have brains to realise funding those killers is not on.

If the money was primarily to support those people and those people only, I'd understand your objection, but it is used for a much broader purpose. As others have said already, money that is raised in the Republic is used in the Republic. So funds raised in the Republic for the poppy wouldn't benefit the people that you described even if you held such a grudge towards them all these years on.

As for your understanding of the people on Bloody Sunday, my understanding would be more leaning towards mercy and forgiveness to both sides in order to move forward. I don't consider the actions of the Provos or the RIRA to be any less or indeed more disgusting than the actions of the British Army on Bloody Sunday.

Madd Finn

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

I salute anyone who prevented me and mine speaking German.

Aber Herr Dolenz. Das ist doch eine Deutsche name.

gurramok

philologos wrote: »

If the money was primarily to support those people and those people only, I'd understand your objection, but it is used for a much broader purpose. As others have said already, money that is raised in the Republic is used in the Republic. So funds raised in the Republic for the poppy wouldn't benefit the people that you described even if you held such a grudge towards them all these years on.

As for your understanding of the people on Bloody Sunday, my understanding would be more leaning towards mercy and forgiveness to both sides in order to move forward. I don't consider the actions of the Provos or the RIRA to be any less or indeed more disgusting than the actions of the British Army on Bloody Sunday.

The funds in ROI go to soldiers who served in NI. Likewise for funds raised in UK. No difference, those killers still get funding no matter where they were from.

Buying a poppy opens the wounds of the victims all these years later. If they didn't get funding from the poppy, there wouldn't be much objection as the poppy was originally intended to remember the fallen from WW1, not NI or Iraq.

LordSutch

No (I'm Irish)

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Robert Fisk writes an excellent article on the poppy 'fashion appendage' in today's British Independent (the London British one that is, not the Irish British one).

"Do those who flaunt the poppy on their lapels know that they mock the war dead?"

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/fisk/robert-fisk-do-those-who-flaunt-the-poppy-on-their-lapels-know-that-they-mock-the-war-dead-6257416.html

Thanks for that Mr Sands, (can't believe I said that), but it is very interesting reading, and I can, to a point see what he's getting at, it is indeed very annoying to see so many people on the TV this time of year wearing the little paper poppy with the leaf 'just because you do' . . . . . and if you were to quiz them they probably wouldn't have a clue about the massive sacrifice & needless loss, they just follow the fashion "ya know what I mean, innit" brigade, but this is where I part company from Mr Fisk & his logic. There are so many more of us who really think deeply about the meaning of the poppy & what it stands for, we are not all ninnies or sheep, some of actually had an uncle or grandfather who actually lost his life in either the Great War or WWII, and for that reason I will always mark November to remember the dead & think "What a bloody waste of so many lives" - PS WWII and the poppy probably has a different connotation, there was no question about the fighting, because it really was a just war that just had to stop Hitler in his tracks, and at any cost.

Latchy

No (I'm Irish)

LordSutch;75320109] that reason I will always mark November to remember the dead & think "What a bloody waste of so many lives"

That's the most important thing about wearing the poppy , to reminds us of the waste of lives ,whole generations of young men who were slaughtered .

Silent Runner

No (I'm Irish)

Has anyone ever seen the Red Poppy with green shamrocks underneath it?

Judgement Day

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Robert Fisk writes an excellent article on the poppy 'fashion appendage' in today's British Independent (the London British one that is, not the Irish British one).

"Do those who flaunt the poppy on their lapels know that they mock the war dead?"

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/fisk/robert-fisk-do-those-who-flaunt-the-poppy-on-their-lapels-know-that-they-mock-the-war-dead-6257416.html

And we all know what an impartial hack Bob Fisk is. :rolleyes:

Snickers Man

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Robert Fisk writes an excellent article on the poppy 'fashion appendage' in today's British Independent (the London British one that is, not the Irish British one).

"Do those who flaunt the poppy on their lapels know that they mock the war dead?"

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/fisk/robert-fisk-do-those-who-flaunt-the-poppy-on-their-lapels-know-that-they-mock-the-war-dead-6257416.html

Interesting article. I think it's very similar in sentiment to Siegried Sassoon's famous poem.

On Passing the new Menin Gate
by Siegfried Sassoon
Who will remember, passing through this Gate,
The unheroic Dead who fed the guns?
Who shall absolve the foulness of their fate,—
Those doomed, conscripted, unvictorious ones?
Crudely renewed, the Salient holds its own.
Paid are its dim defenders by this pomp;
Paid, with a pile of peace-complacent stone,
The armies who endured that sullen swamp.

Here was the world’s worst wound. And here with pride
‘Their name liveth for ever,’ the Gateway claims.
Was ever an immolation so belied
As these intolerably nameless names?
Well might the Dead who struggled in the slime
Rise and deride this sepulchre of crime.

LordSutch

No (I'm Irish)

Silent Runner wrote: »

Has anyone ever seen the Red Poppy with green shamrocks underneath it?

Well would you believe there is for the 1st time an 'Irish Poppy badge' which marks it out from the traditional poppy. This new (Irish only) variation is a small green metal lapel badge, with a tiny poppy in the centre! http://rbl-limerick.webs.com/Facebook%20button.jpg

round tower huntsman

wearing a poppy shows support for the people that did this

NinjaK

Should Jews wear swastikas?

KeithAFC

No (I'm British/not Irish)

gurramok wrote: »

Its offensive as their funds help the killers of Irish people murdered by the British Army in Northern Ireland no matter what jurisdiction those killers were from. People have brains to realise funding those killers is not on.

Why is it offensive?

LordSutch

No (I'm Irish)

round tower huntsman wrote: »

wearing a poppy shows support for the people that did this

who did what?

round tower huntsman

tried to up load a video but it wouldnt work.

Step23

No (I'm Irish)

NinjaK wrote: »

Should Jews wear swastikas?

Stupid comment, did over 200 thousand Jews fight in the German Army too?

slimjimmc

Step23 wrote: »

Stupid comment, did over 200 thousand Jews fight in the German Army too?

One estimate is closer to 150,000 http://www.amazon.com/Hitlers-Jewish-Soldiers-Descent-Military/dp/0700613587

arybvtcw0eolkf

No (I'm Irish)

Today is the Irish UN Vets Association's national day of commemoration.

At today's wreath laying ceremony at IUNVA's H.Q. (Post 1) in Arbour hill we had no hang ups in accepting Poppy wreaths from The Royal British Legion and representatives from The Royal Air Force, The Royal Navy and the Police Service of Northern Ireland.

Seanchai

Stefan Weak Paw wrote: »

Today is the Irish UN Vets Association's national day of commemoration.

At today's wreath laying ceremony at IUNVA's H.Q. (Post 1) in Arbour hill we had no hang ups in accepting Poppy wreaths from The Royal British Legion and representatives from The Royal Air Force, The Royal Navy and the Police Service of Northern Ireland.

How unsurprising that the Royal British Legion saw fit to "honour" Irish people who fought in Irish forces with the same blood-soaked imperialist poppy symbol which honours the Black and Tans, Parachute Regiment and the rest of the warmongers of British imperialism in Ireland and across the planet.

There isn't much respect there for what those Irish soldiers (as opposed to the Irish-born British soldiers whom the RBL in Ireland glorify) died for. The RBL laying a white wreath would have been much more appropriate rather than using the occasion as another excuse to promote their poppy fascism in the democratic republic which was founded by overthrowing the very British imperialist forces and state in Ireland which they seek to glorify.

Einhard

Seanchai wrote: »

How unsurprising that the Royal British Legion saw fit to "honour" Irish people who fought in Irish forces with the same blood-soaked imperialist poppy symbol which honours the Black and Tans, Parachute Regiment and the rest of the warmongers of British imperialism in Ireland and across the planet.

There isn't much respect there for what those Irish soldiers (as opposed to the Irish-born British soldiers whom the RBL in Ireland glorify) died for. The RBL laying a white wreath would have been much more appropriate rather than using the occasion as another excuse to promote their poppy fascism in the democratic republic which was founded by overthrowing the very British imperialist forces and state in Ireland which they seek to glorify.

Oh for God sake, do people like you never get fed up of spewing your hyperbolic bile? They paid their respects in a respectful way, and somehow that's turned into a fascist act designed in some way to negate Ireland's independence. Jesus Christ, grow up and lose the chip on your shoulder would you? we broke the political link with the British decades ago; it's a pity some wouldn't ditch the mental baggage too.

ejmaztec

Some of the posts in thread would make a sackful of lemons taste sweet by comparison.

Seanchai

Einhard wrote: »

Oh for God sake, do people like you never get fed up of spewing your hyperbolic bile? They paid their respects in a respectful way, and somehow that's turned into a fascist act designed in some way to negate Ireland's independence. Jesus Christ, grow up and lose the chip on your shoulder would you? we broke the political link with the British decades ago; it's a pity some wouldn't ditch the mental baggage too.

:rolleyes: Oh for God's sake, do people like you never get fed up of trying to portray what these poppy fascists are seeking to glorify as something morally defensible? There is nothing morally righteous/defensible/admirable about what the British Empire stood for. There is therefore nothing admirable about those who fought to expand and defend it. Only in double-think at its finest can the footsoldiers of that Empire be honoured, while what they were fighting for is not. It's like saying the footsoldiers of the Third Reich can be honoured, while what they were fighting for is not. How many of the uber nationalistic British poppy wearers would agree that Germans have a right to a German military culture which honours Third Reich soldiers, while not honouring the Third Reich? It's a nonsense.

This attempt to sanitise the savagery and sheer inhumanity of British imperialism - it's inherent racism, sectarianism, exploitation and dehumanisation - is offensive at the most basic moral and intellectual level.

Now, the real question here is this: why do you feel the need to defend these footsoldiers of British imperialism and the poppy cult which everybody is supposed to subscribe to in glorifying them?

philologos

No (I'm Irish)

Seanchai wrote: »

:rolleyes: Oh for God's sake, do people like you never get fed up of trying to portray what these poppy fascists are seeking to glorify as something morally defensible? There is nothing morally righteous/defensible/admirable about what the British Empire stood for. There is therefore nothing admirable about those who fought to expand and defend it. Only in double-think at its finest can the footsoldiers of that Empire be honoured, while what they were fighting for is not. It's like saying the footsoldiers of the Third Reich can be honoured, while what they were fighting for is not. How many of the uber nationalistic British poppy wearers would agree that Germans have a right to a German military culture which honours Third Reich soldiers, while not honouring the Third Reich? It's a nonsense.

This attempt to sanitise the savagery and sheer inhumanity of British imperialism - it's inherent racism, sectarianism, exploitation and dehumanisation - is offensive at the most basic moral and intellectual level.

Now, the real question here is this: why do you feel the need to defend these footsoldiers of British imperialism and the poppy cult which everybody is supposed to subscribe to in glorifying them?

I'm thankful that I'm not a dogmatic republican and that I can see that this issue is evidently not as simple as you point out for your own purposes. For example the claim that absolutely no good came from the British Empire.

I'm thankful that I can see that the reasons why people wear the poppy are much broader than those which you describe.

There's nothing immoral about remembering the dead at war.

Also, I think you'll find that a huge share of the sectarianism that you describe originated amongst Irish people too.

Wolfe Tone

Einhard wrote: »

Oh for God sake, do people like you never get fed up of spewing your hyperbolic bile? They paid their respects in a respectful way, and somehow that's turned into a fascist act designed in some way to negate Ireland's independence. Jesus Christ, grow up and lose the chip on your shoulder would you? we broke the political link with the British decades ago; it's a pity some wouldn't ditch the mental baggage too.

Einhard

Seanchai wrote: »

:rolleyes: Oh for God's sake, do people like you never get fed up of trying to portray what these poppy fascists are seeking to glorify as something morally defensible? There is nothing morally righteous/defensible/admirable about what the British Empire stood for. There is therefore nothing admirable about those who fought to expand and defend it. Only in double-think at its finest can the footsoldiers of that Empire be honoured, while what they were fighting for is not. It's like saying the footsoldiers of the Third Reich can be honoured, while what they were fighting for is not. How many of the uber nationalistic British poppy wearers would agree that Germans have a right to a German military culture which honours Third Reich soldiers, while not honouring the Third Reich? It's a nonsense.

This attempt to sanitise the savagery and sheer inhumanity of British imperialism - it's inherent racism, sectarianism, exploitation and dehumanisation - is offensive at the most basic moral and intellectual level.

Now, the real question here is this: why do you feel the need to defend these footsoldiers of British imperialism and the poppy cult which everybody is supposed to subscribe to in glorifying them?

Jesus Christ. Such anger. There's a difference between defending someone and not attacking them. That you don't seem to grasp this says a lot to be honest. You should really look to remedying that chip on your shoulder. It's ironic that the very people who most despise British imperialism are the very ones who can't seem to free themselves from its shackles.

Einhard

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

You know what I mean WT!!

Wolfe Tone

Einhard wrote: »

You know what I mean WT!!

But Einhard, the British army, which the poppy glorifies (before you say otherwise take a look at the website, the wording it uses, the wars it references) did terrible things in the north. When you say things like;

It's ironic that the very people who most despise British imperialism are the very ones who can't seem to free themselves from its shackles.

and

Jesus Christ, grow up and lose the chip on your shoulder would you? we broke the political link with the British decades ago; it's a pity some wouldn't ditch the mental baggage too.

You are completely forgetting that. Not all of us have forgotten about the north, many have had family and friends suffer at the hands of the British, and thats in living memory.

Einhard

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

But Einhard, the British army, which the poppy glorifies (before you say otherwise take a look at the website, the wording it uses, the wars it references) did terrible things in the north. When you say things like;



and



You are completely forgetting that. Not all of us have forgotten about the north, many have had family and friends suffer at the hands of the British, and thats in living memory.

The point WT, is that for many people, the wearing of the poppy is personal. They wear it to commemorate loved ones, to honour their parents or grandparents, or to honour what they might see as a particular generation who fought against fascism. They don't wear it to honour the likes of Kitchener or Haig, or the soldiers who murdered civilians on Bloody Sunday. Seanchai doesn't want to acknowledge that though. He wants to portray the wearing of the poppy as some institutional reverence for the British Empire. He does so because it suits his purpose. However, it's at odds with why most people would wear the poppy.

To address your second point, I'm not stating that we should forget about the North and the atrocities there (although I'll note the irony of that from a supporter of a party whose response to every criticism of MMG's past was that we should move on), but that our response to the actions needn't be one of anger and bitter enmity, which, from Seanchai's tone, seems to be his default position on these matters.

BTW, i don't wear it myself, nor would I.

ArticHare

Seanchai wrote: »

How unsurprising that the Royal British Legion saw fit to "honour" Irish people who fought in Irish forces with the same blood-soaked imperialist poppy symbol which honours the Black and Tans, Parachute Regiment and the rest of the warmongers of British imperialism in Ireland and across the planet.

There isn't much respect there for what those Irish soldiers (as opposed to the Irish-born British soldiers whom the RBL in Ireland glorify) died for. The RBL laying a white wreath would have been much more appropriate rather than using the occasion as another excuse to promote their poppy fascism in the democratic republic which was founded by overthrowing the very British imperialist forces and state in Ireland which they seek to glorify.

Thats hillarious

Wolfe Tone

Einhard wrote: »

The point WT, is that for many people, the wearing of the poppy is personal. They wear it to commemorate loved ones, to honour their parents or grandparents, or to honour what they might see as a particular generation who fought against fascism. They don't wear it to honour the likes of Kitchener or Haig, or the soldiers who murdered civilians on Bloody Sunday. Seanchai doesn't want to acknowledge that though. He wants to portray the wearing of the poppy as some institutional reverence for the British Empire. He does so because it suits his purpose. However, it's at odds with why most people would wear the poppy.

BTW, i don't wear it myself, nor would I.

Einhard, I would respect that but for the fact that give money to an organization which glorifies the British army, the whole poppy thing nowadays is hijacked in effect, to bolster support for Afganisthan and the like.

If the organization says it means x, if politicians say it means the same thing, if the media say it means the same thing, then I think its time for the Irish lad who wants to remember his granddad to get a new symbol.

11 November 1918 signalled the end of The Great War; the Armistice between the Allies and Germany came into effect. Since 1921, the nation has come together to remember the sacrifices that hundreds of thousands of British and Commonwealth Service men and women made not just during the Great War, but World War II and all subsequent wars and conflicts including Iraq and Afghanistan.

To salute all these heroes and express gratitude this Remembrance Day, The Royal British Legion is planting a "Flanders' Field" of Poppies beside the Menin Gate in Ypres.

Thats what it is sold as Einhard... and the cash goes to former British soldiers, for instance to Brits who served in northern Ireland. All the language re "noble sacrifice for their country" is totally at odds to why you say the majority wear the poppy for.

The poppy is all about glorifying the British army, and if a person objects to what the organization and the British govt says it stands for then they should not buy into it, literally, and should find a different way to commemorate their fallen relations or whatnot.

What you have said is basically that th majorities opinion on what the poppy stands for is totally at odds with what it is marketed with. If that is so they should stop buying them.

Seanchai

philologos wrote: »

I'm thankful that I'm not a dogmatic republican and that I can see that this issue is evidently not as simple as you point out for your own purposes. For example the claim that absolutely no good came from the British Empire.

1) Yes, why be a "dogmatic republican" opposed to warmongering, when you're obviously much more comfortable being a tribal British nationalist engaged in this overbearing and incessant British cultural tradition of glorification of violence and death?

2) Let us be clear about this: are you saying the British went around the world, oppressed indigenous populations and installed racist supremacist rulers in the newly conquered areas for the good of the locals?

3) As for your chimerical contention about "good" coming from the British Empire, well Nazism brought much good to Germany such as the autobahns and indeed to the modern Jewish population which has its own state called Israel largely because of world opinion as a result of what Nazism did. But nice attempt at straw-manning a discussion with the standard fallback lines of the marginalised Europhobic subculture in Britain which is most keen on this poppy stuff.

philologos wrote: »

Also, I think you'll find that a huge share of the sectarianism that you describe originated amongst Irish people too.

Would you care to elaborate on this? Do you really believe the conflict in the north is about theology/religion/sectarianism rather than the natives being rather peeved at being robbed and oppressed by a British settler-colonial community for centuries?

philologos wrote: »

I'm thankful that I can see that the reasons why people wear the poppy are much broader than those which you describe.

As I said, that's what one of your countrymen once described as double-think. "Love the sinner; hate the sin" thinking is a cop-out. If they fought for the British Empire, they were central to the continuation of the inhumanity and exploitation which underpinned it. They do not deserve to be honoured simply because they wore a British uniform while murdering somebody. That's the sort of tribal thinking which underpins these poppy apologists.

philologos wrote: »

There's nothing immoral about remembering the dead at war.

Would you say the same about Germans who want to "remember" their dead who fought for the Third Reich?