British poppy: should the Irish commemorate people who fought for the British Empire?

Seanchai · 06-11-2011 11:01pm

Einhard wrote: »

Oh for God sake, do people like you never get fed up of spewing your hyperbolic bile? They paid their respects in a respectful way, and somehow that's turned into a fascist act designed in some way to negate Ireland's independence. Jesus Christ, grow up and lose the chip on your shoulder would you? we broke the political link with the British decades ago; it's a pity some wouldn't ditch the mental baggage too.

:rolleyes: Oh for God's sake, do people like you never get fed up of trying to portray what these poppy fascists are seeking to glorify as something morally defensible? There is nothing morally righteous/defensible/admirable about what the British Empire stood for. There is therefore nothing admirable about those who fought to expand and defend it. Only in double-think at its finest can the footsoldiers of that Empire be honoured, while what they were fighting for is not. It's like saying the footsoldiers of the Third Reich can be honoured, while what they were fighting for is not. How many of the uber nationalistic British poppy wearers would agree that Germans have a right to a German military culture which honours Third Reich soldiers, while not honouring the Third Reich? It's a nonsense.

This attempt to sanitise the savagery and sheer inhumanity of British imperialism - it's inherent racism, sectarianism, exploitation and dehumanisation - is offensive at the most basic moral and intellectual level.

Now, the real question here is this: why do you feel the need to defend these footsoldiers of British imperialism and the poppy cult which everybody is supposed to subscribe to in glorifying them?

philologos · 06-11-2011 11:11pm

No (I'm Irish)

Seanchai wrote: »

:rolleyes: Oh for God's sake, do people like you never get fed up of trying to portray what these poppy fascists are seeking to glorify as something morally defensible? There is nothing morally righteous/defensible/admirable about what the British Empire stood for. There is therefore nothing admirable about those who fought to expand and defend it. Only in double-think at its finest can the footsoldiers of that Empire be honoured, while what they were fighting for is not. It's like saying the footsoldiers of the Third Reich can be honoured, while what they were fighting for is not. How many of the uber nationalistic British poppy wearers would agree that Germans have a right to a German military culture which honours Third Reich soldiers, while not honouring the Third Reich? It's a nonsense.

This attempt to sanitise the savagery and sheer inhumanity of British imperialism - it's inherent racism, sectarianism, exploitation and dehumanisation - is offensive at the most basic moral and intellectual level.

Now, the real question here is this: why do you feel the need to defend these footsoldiers of British imperialism and the poppy cult which everybody is supposed to subscribe to in glorifying them?

I'm thankful that I'm not a dogmatic republican and that I can see that this issue is evidently not as simple as you point out for your own purposes. For example the claim that absolutely no good came from the British Empire.

I'm thankful that I can see that the reasons why people wear the poppy are much broader than those which you describe.

There's nothing immoral about remembering the dead at war.

Also, I think you'll find that a huge share of the sectarianism that you describe originated amongst Irish people too.

Wolfe Tone · 06-11-2011 11:12pm

Einhard wrote: »

Oh for God sake, do people like you never get fed up of spewing your hyperbolic bile? They paid their respects in a respectful way, and somehow that's turned into a fascist act designed in some way to negate Ireland's independence. Jesus Christ, grow up and lose the chip on your shoulder would you? we broke the political link with the British decades ago; it's a pity some wouldn't ditch the mental baggage too.

Einhard · 06-11-2011 11:14pm

Seanchai wrote: »

:rolleyes: Oh for God's sake, do people like you never get fed up of trying to portray what these poppy fascists are seeking to glorify as something morally defensible? There is nothing morally righteous/defensible/admirable about what the British Empire stood for. There is therefore nothing admirable about those who fought to expand and defend it. Only in double-think at its finest can the footsoldiers of that Empire be honoured, while what they were fighting for is not. It's like saying the footsoldiers of the Third Reich can be honoured, while what they were fighting for is not. How many of the uber nationalistic British poppy wearers would agree that Germans have a right to a German military culture which honours Third Reich soldiers, while not honouring the Third Reich? It's a nonsense.

This attempt to sanitise the savagery and sheer inhumanity of British imperialism - it's inherent racism, sectarianism, exploitation and dehumanisation - is offensive at the most basic moral and intellectual level.

Now, the real question here is this: why do you feel the need to defend these footsoldiers of British imperialism and the poppy cult which everybody is supposed to subscribe to in glorifying them?

Jesus Christ. Such anger. There's a difference between defending someone and not attacking them. That you don't seem to grasp this says a lot to be honest. You should really look to remedying that chip on your shoulder. It's ironic that the very people who most despise British imperialism are the very ones who can't seem to free themselves from its shackles.

Einhard · 06-11-2011 11:15pm

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

You know what I mean WT!!

Wolfe Tone · 06-11-2011 11:21pm

Einhard wrote: »

You know what I mean WT!!

But Einhard, the British army, which the poppy glorifies (before you say otherwise take a look at the website, the wording it uses, the wars it references) did terrible things in the north. When you say things like;

It's ironic that the very people who most despise British imperialism are the very ones who can't seem to free themselves from its shackles.

and

Jesus Christ, grow up and lose the chip on your shoulder would you? we broke the political link with the British decades ago; it's a pity some wouldn't ditch the mental baggage too.

You are completely forgetting that. Not all of us have forgotten about the north, many have had family and friends suffer at the hands of the British, and thats in living memory.

Einhard · 06-11-2011 11:32pm

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

But Einhard, the British army, which the poppy glorifies (before you say otherwise take a look at the website, the wording it uses, the wars it references) did terrible things in the north. When you say things like;

and

You are completely forgetting that. Not all of us have forgotten about the north, many have had family and friends suffer at the hands of the British, and thats in living memory.

The point WT, is that for many people, the wearing of the poppy is personal. They wear it to commemorate loved ones, to honour their parents or grandparents, or to honour what they might see as a particular generation who fought against fascism. They don't wear it to honour the likes of Kitchener or Haig, or the soldiers who murdered civilians on Bloody Sunday. Seanchai doesn't want to acknowledge that though. He wants to portray the wearing of the poppy as some institutional reverence for the British Empire. He does so because it suits his purpose. However, it's at odds with why most people would wear the poppy.

To address your second point, I'm not stating that we should forget about the North and the atrocities there (although I'll note the irony of that from a supporter of a party whose response to every criticism of MMG's past was that we should move on), but that our response to the actions needn't be one of anger and bitter enmity, which, from Seanchai's tone, seems to be his default position on these matters.

BTW, i don't wear it myself, nor would I.

ArticHare · 06-11-2011 11:36pm

Seanchai wrote: »

How unsurprising that the Royal British Legion saw fit to "honour" Irish people who fought in Irish forces with the same blood-soaked imperialist poppy symbol which honours the Black and Tans, Parachute Regiment and the rest of the warmongers of British imperialism in Ireland and across the planet.

There isn't much respect there for what those Irish soldiers (as opposed to the Irish-born British soldiers whom the RBL in Ireland glorify) died for. The RBL laying a white wreath would have been much more appropriate rather than using the occasion as another excuse to promote their poppy fascism in the democratic republic which was founded by overthrowing the very British imperialist forces and state in Ireland which they seek to glorify.

Thats hillarious

Wolfe Tone · 06-11-2011 11:49pm

Einhard wrote: »

The point WT, is that for many people, the wearing of the poppy is personal. They wear it to commemorate loved ones, to honour their parents or grandparents, or to honour what they might see as a particular generation who fought against fascism. They don't wear it to honour the likes of Kitchener or Haig, or the soldiers who murdered civilians on Bloody Sunday. Seanchai doesn't want to acknowledge that though. He wants to portray the wearing of the poppy as some institutional reverence for the British Empire. He does so because it suits his purpose. However, it's at odds with why most people would wear the poppy.

BTW, i don't wear it myself, nor would I.

Einhard, I would respect that but for the fact that give money to an organization which glorifies the British army, the whole poppy thing nowadays is hijacked in effect, to bolster support for Afganisthan and the like.

If the organization says it means x, if politicians say it means the same thing, if the media say it means the same thing, then I think its time for the Irish lad who wants to remember his granddad to get a new symbol.

11 November 1918 signalled the end of The Great War; the Armistice between the Allies and Germany came into effect. Since 1921, the nation has come together to remember the sacrifices that hundreds of thousands of British and Commonwealth Service men and women made not just during the Great War, but World War II and all subsequent wars and conflicts including Iraq and Afghanistan.

To salute all these heroes and express gratitude this Remembrance Day, The Royal British Legion is planting a "Flanders' Field" of Poppies beside the Menin Gate in Ypres.

Thats what it is sold as Einhard... and the cash goes to former British soldiers, for instance to Brits who served in northern Ireland. All the language re "noble sacrifice for their country" is totally at odds to why you say the majority wear the poppy for.

The poppy is all about glorifying the British army, and if a person objects to what the organization and the British govt says it stands for then they should not buy into it, literally, and should find a different way to commemorate their fallen relations or whatnot.

What you have said is basically that th majorities opinion on what the poppy stands for is totally at odds with what it is marketed with. If that is so they should stop buying them.

Seanchai · 06-11-2011 11:51pm

philologos wrote: »

I'm thankful that I'm not a dogmatic republican and that I can see that this issue is evidently not as simple as you point out for your own purposes. For example the claim that absolutely no good came from the British Empire.

1) Yes, why be a "dogmatic republican" opposed to warmongering, when you're obviously much more comfortable being a tribal British nationalist engaged in this overbearing and incessant British cultural tradition of glorification of violence and death?

2) Let us be clear about this: are you saying the British went around the world, oppressed indigenous populations and installed racist supremacist rulers in the newly conquered areas for the good of the locals?

3) As for your chimerical contention about "good" coming from the British Empire, well Nazism brought much good to Germany such as the autobahns and indeed to the modern Jewish population which has its own state called Israel largely because of world opinion as a result of what Nazism did. But nice attempt at straw-manning a discussion with the standard fallback lines of the marginalised Europhobic subculture in Britain which is most keen on this poppy stuff.

philologos wrote: »

Also, I think you'll find that a huge share of the sectarianism that you describe originated amongst Irish people too.

Would you care to elaborate on this? Do you really believe the conflict in the north is about theology/religion/sectarianism rather than the natives being rather peeved at being robbed and oppressed by a British settler-colonial community for centuries?

philologos wrote: »

I'm thankful that I can see that the reasons why people wear the poppy are much broader than those which you describe.

As I said, that's what one of your countrymen once described as double-think. "Love the sinner; hate the sin" thinking is a cop-out. If they fought for the British Empire, they were central to the continuation of the inhumanity and exploitation which underpinned it. They do not deserve to be honoured simply because they wore a British uniform while murdering somebody. That's the sort of tribal thinking which underpins these poppy apologists.

philologos wrote: »

There's nothing immoral about remembering the dead at war.

Would you say the same about Germans who want to "remember" their dead who fought for the Third Reich?

Einhard · 06-11-2011 11:52pm

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Einhard, I would respect that but for the fact that give money to an organization which glorifies the British army, the whole poppy thing nowadays is hijacked in effect, to bolster support for Afganisthan and the like.

If the organization says it means x, if politicians say it means the same thing, if the media say it means the same thing, then I think its time for the Irish lad who wants to remember his granddad to get a new symbol.

Thats what it is sold as Einhard... and the cash goes to former British soldiers, for instance to Brits who served in northern Ireland. All the language re "noble sacrifice for their country" is totally at odds to why you say the majority wear the poppy for.

The poppy is all about glorifying the British army, and if a person objects to what the organization and the British govt says it stands for then they should not buy into it, literally, and should find a different way to commemorate their fallen relations or whatnot.

What you have said is basically that th majorities opinion on what the poppy stands for is totally at odds with what it is marketed with. If that is so they should stop buying them.

WT, you know as well as I do that what it's sold as can be entirely different from why the ordinary person in the street buys it. Millions of Britons marched against the Iraq. It's fairly likely that many of them went on, at some stage, to buy a poppy. I think it's stretching logic to state that that purchase somehow means that, afterall, they supported the war and, by extension, British imperialism.

Seanchai · 06-11-2011 11:53pm

Einhard wrote: »

Jesus Christ. Such anger. There's a difference between defending someone and not attacking them. That you don't seem to grasp this says a lot to be honest. You should really look to remedying that chip on your shoulder. It's ironic that the very people who most despise British imperialism are the very ones who can't seem to free themselves from its shackles.

Interesting choice of words: no doubt your own abundant displays of anger are really "passion". Clearly there's a difference between not defending somebody, and attacking them. It's also true that evil triumphs when good people do nothing (surely you should be au fait with a great conservative like Edmund Burke?). The deeds of the British Empire, and those who fought for it, do not deserve to be whitewashed or sanitised in this annual orgy of poppy "commemoration". That people who refuse to cow-toe to this sanitisation of imperialist warmongering are subject to vitriolic attacks by people like you actually says much more about you and people like you who get upset when the deeds of the British Empire are not washed over. This is the sort of poppy fascism Jon Snow was repelled at, and which every person who appears on British tv nowadays has to subscribe to.

I'm quite comfortable in maintaining my belief that British imperialism had an overwhelmingly negative influence on Ireland and the world. As such, I have no intention of honouring the mercenaries who fought for British supremacy over the Irish people and others. These poppies commemorate British oppression against indigenous populations around the world. They do not, and never have, commemorated peace or freedom for the many, many victims of British imperialism.

Wolfe Tone · 06-11-2011 11:59pm

Einhard wrote: »

WT, you know as well as I do that what it's sold as can be entirely different from why the ordinary person in the street buys it. Millions of Britons marched against the Iraq. It's fairly likely that many of them went on, at some stage, to buy a poppy. I think it's stretching logic to state that that purchase somehow means that, afterall, they supported the war and, by extension, British imperialism.

That makes no sense Einhard. Thats like you wanting to remember and commemorate the 1916 rising by giving money to a support system/fund for ex provos and their families.

Its daft, John from Cork who wants to remember his grandad with a poppy is giving money to ex (and current) British soldiers and their families who served in the North and elsewhere, just daft. He should buy his poppies somewhere else shouldnt he?

KeithAFC · 07-11-2011 12:18am

No (I'm British/not Irish)

this overbearing and incessant British cultural tradition of glorification of violence and death?

Sounds like the easter lily. It most likely shouldn't be but since Sinn Fein have hi-jacked it (along with the Irish language), that is how many people view the lily now.

philologos · 07-11-2011 7:05am

No (I'm Irish)

Seanchai wrote: »

1) Yes, why be a "dogmatic republican" opposed to warmongering, when you're obviously much more comfortable being a tribal British nationalist engaged in this overbearing and incessant British cultural tradition of glorification of violence and death?

I'm Irish, one doesn't have to be British to live in London.
I'm not interested in glorifying anyone's death.
What I am interested in is remembering the tragedy that is war.

Seanchai wrote: »

2) Let us be clear about this: are you saying the British went around the world, oppressed indigenous populations and installed racist supremacist rulers in the newly conquered areas for the good of the locals?

I'm saying that some of what happened in the British Empire was for good while much was for bad. I do this because that's closer to reality than the interpretation that you've bought into.

Seanchai wrote: »

3) As for your chimerical contention about "good" coming from the British Empire, well Nazism brought much good to Germany such as the autobahns and indeed to the modern Jewish population which has its own state called Israel largely because of world opinion as a result of what Nazism did. But nice attempt at straw-manning a discussion with the standard fallback lines of the marginalised Europhobic subculture in Britain which is most keen on this poppy stuff.

I'm confused as to what you're getting out here. There's nothing chimerical at all involved in saying that there was both good and bad in the British Empire. The absurdity lies in saying that there was absolutely no good in it.

There's also nothing Europhobic about the poppy, and I don't see why there would be considering that it arose out of marking an end to a European War.

I'm afraid there is no "strawmanning" involved.

Seanchai wrote: »

Would you care to elaborate on this? Do you really believe the conflict in the north is about theology/religion/sectarianism rather than the natives being rather peeved at being robbed and oppressed by a British settler-colonial community for centuries?

It's about tribal hatred between both native Irish and settler. It comes on both sides and to say that it doesn't is just revisionism.

Seanchai wrote: »

As I said, that's what one of your countrymen once described as double-think. "Love the sinner; hate the sin" thinking is a cop-out. If they fought for the British Empire, they were central to the continuation of the inhumanity and exploitation which underpinned it. They do not deserve to be honoured simply because they wore a British uniform while murdering somebody. That's the sort of tribal thinking which underpins these poppy apologists.

Again I'm Irish.

Although, I wouldn't agree with "Love the sinner, hate the sin" because of any nationality. I would agree with it because I believe in Jesus Christ, but that's for another day.

I don't believe that one has to honour British troops by wearing the poppy. Personally, I think it is a good opportunity for the world to remember the ultimate futility of war.

Seanchai wrote: »

you say the same about Germans who want to "remember" their dead who fought for the Third Reich?

Yes, I would. I support remembering the tragedy of war rather than glorifying the actions of particular individuals.

Cú Giobach · 07-11-2011 8:13am

philologos wrote: »

I'm saying that some of what happened in the British Empire was for good while much was for bad. I do this because that's closer to reality than the interpretation that you've bought into.

Things were done for the good of Britain herself, whether it was good or bad for the occupied people was irrelevant with respect to this. The priority as with all Empires was for the good of the Imperialists.

It's about tribal hatred between both native Irish and settler. It comes on both sides and to say that it doesn't is just revisionism.

There is always hatred when someone tries to "settle" on another's land and impose their will irrespective of the will of the natives. As in any other example around the world, the blame with regard to the ensuing conflict is with the invader (unless of course you are of the mindset that people should just accept invasion, "lie down" and accept it, in which case it would be wrong to commemorate those British who died fighting against Germany).

Fratton Fred · 07-11-2011 9:06am

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Einhard, I would respect that but for the fact that give money to an organization which glorifies the British army, the whole poppy thing nowadays is hijacked in effect, to bolster support for Afganisthan and the like.

If the organization says it means x, if politicians say it means the same thing, if the media say it means the same thing, then I think its time for the Irish lad who wants to remember his granddad to get a new symbol.

Thats what it is sold as Einhard... and the cash goes to former British soldiers, for instance to Brits who served in northern Ireland. All the language re "noble sacrifice for their country" is totally at odds to why you say the majority wear the poppy for.

The poppy is all about glorifying the British army, and if a person objects to what the organization and the British govt says it stands for then they should not buy into it, literally, and should find a different way to commemorate their fallen relations or whatnot.

What you have said is basically that th majorities opinion on what the poppy stands for is totally at odds with what it is marketed with. If that is so they should stop buying them.

It doesn't commemorate the British army, it isn't about the organisation, it is about the people.

getz · 07-11-2011 9:11am

No (I'm British/not Irish)

isent it ironic that there is a group of republicans banging on about the british being terrorists,as if the republican movement is boy scout club,the problem is that their dirty little secret is out,and the people in ireland and the UK no longer support terrorist groups,loyalist or republican,those irishmen who died in the great war did so for ireland as it was part of the union then,no one is telling anyone to wear a poppy,but there are a lot of republicans on these posts saying not to

NinjaK · 07-11-2011 9:47am

Step23 wrote: »

Stupid comment, did over 200 thousand Jews fight in the German Army too?

Thats irrelevant, if they did they would be traitors. The Irish who fought for the British were and are traitors.

ejmaztec · 07-11-2011 9:54am

NinjaK wrote: »

Thats irrelevant, if they did they would be traitors. The Irish who fought for the British were and are traitors.

Even the ones who fought the Nazis?

Tigerbaby · 07-11-2011 9:56am

No (I'm Irish)

NinjaK wrote: »

Thats irrelevant, if they did they would be traitors. The Irish who fought for the British were and are traitors.

so you think that those who fought in World War I were traitors? Many of these people thought they were assisting Ireland on the road to Home Rule.

Be careful whom you are calling traitors.

NinjaK · 07-11-2011 10:01am

ejmaztec wrote: »

Even the ones who fought the Nazis?

Of course.

ejmaztec · 07-11-2011 10:03am

NinjaK wrote: »

Of course.

Only Kev would say something as daft as that.:P

NinjaK · 07-11-2011 10:04am

Tigerbaby wrote: »

so you think that those who fought in World War I were traitors? Many of these people thought they were assisting Ireland on the road to Home Rule.

Be careful whom you are calling traitors.

Im sorry but if fighting for the enemy is not considered being a traitor then I dont know what is. Especially considering the history

NinjaK · 07-11-2011 10:05am

ejmaztec wrote: »

Only Kev would say something as daft as that.:P

Noffles · 07-11-2011 10:07am

No (I'm British/not Irish)

As much as I hate this thread and the vitriol in it against the Poppy wearers, it does give me so many answers, when wearing my own Poppy in my office , to the people who ask why..... normally Iwould just say "Fukc off"..

AudreyHepburn · 07-11-2011 10:09am

No (I'm British/not Irish)

As young man of eighteen my great-grandfather fought on the battlefield of Ypres in WWI in an Irish regiment of the British Army ( which one escapes me just now). He survived the war but lost a leg from gangrene after being hit by shrapnel. We still have his medals and discharge papers.

Do I see him as a traitor? No absolutly not, I see him as a brave young man who put his own life on the line for those many of his peers would have seen as enemies and was lucky to sacrifice only his leg. I see no reason on this earth why he shouldn't be remembered.

My grandfather ( his son) says he never talked about the war but the little we know is to me fascinating and it makes me proud to have him as a relative.

All these people bleatting on about opression and occupation and so on really need to take a good long look at themselves. Being stuck in the past and refusing to move on is exactly why people PC Ronan Kerr are still dying up North. Please please please just let your ridiculous prejudaces go and move into the 21st century.

getz · 07-11-2011 10:11am

No (I'm British/not Irish)

Tigerbaby wrote: »

so you think that those who fought in World War I were traitors? Many of these people thought they were assisting Ireland on the road to Home Rule.

Be careful whom you are calling traitors.

dont blame him,most in the republic do not know that those irishmen who died in WW1 did so with the blessing of the irish people and all political parties,its a area that is not talked about by those who have a anti brit agenda

arybvtcw0eolkf · 07-11-2011 10:16am

No (I'm Irish)

Noffles wrote: »

As much as I hate this thread and the vitriol in it against the Poppy wearers, it does give me so many answers, when wearing my own Poppy in my office , to the people who ask why..... normally Iwould just say "Fukc off"..

Go away out of that, you tell people to 'Fvck off' for asking a question?.

Hard to believe tbh.

Noffles · 07-11-2011 10:24am

No (I'm British/not Irish)

Stefan Weak Paw wrote: »

Go away out of that, you tell people to 'Fvck off' for asking a question?.

Hard to believe tbh.

It's always a loaded question, they know why I'm wearing and are asking it to provoke a response... And it's not an angry "fukc off" more of a "fukc off, you know why I'm wearing it"

And to be honest there are far more things that are hard to believe on this thread than what I have typed.

FetchTheGin · 07-11-2011 10:24am

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

really need to take a good long look at themselves. Being stuck in the past

Yet you agree with wearing a poppy, precisely why would a wearing a poppy symbolise not "being stuck in the past"? Surely that is exactly the reason for it?

arybvtcw0eolkf · 07-11-2011 10:36am

No (I'm Irish)

Noffles wrote: »

It's always a loaded question, they know why I'm wearing and are asking it to provoke a response... And it's not an angry "fukc off" more of a "fukc off, you know why I'm wearing it"

And to be honest there are far more things that are hard to believe on this thread than what I have typed.

Ah cool, I get you now.

I fk'ing hate loaded questions.

Fratton Fred · 07-11-2011 10:36am

FetchTheGin wrote: »

Yet you agree with wearing a poppy, precisely why would a wearing a poppy symbolise not "being stuck in the past"? Surely that is exactly the reason for it?

There is a difference between recognising and remembering the past and being stuck in it.

If the Poppy signified being stuck in the past, you wouldn't see German, British and French heads of state laying poppy wreaths at remembrance ceremonies.

AudreyHepburn · 07-11-2011 10:45am

No (I'm British/not Irish)

FetchTheGin wrote: »

Yet you agree with wearing a poppy, precisely why would a wearing a poppy symbolise not "being stuck in the past"? Surely that is exactly the reason for it?

Wearing the Poppy is about remembering the past ( and on a personal level my great-grandfather ) not being stubbornly stuck in it.

But I think you know that really tbh.

To quote a wise old lady who not so long visited this country with her husband;

" We must bow to the past but not be bound by it"

slapbangwallop · 07-11-2011 10:52am

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

As young man of eighteen my great-grandfather fought on the battlefield of Ypres in WWI in an Irish regiment of the British Army ( which one escapes me just now). He survived the war but lost a leg from gangrene after being hit by shrapnel. We still have his medals and discharge papers.

Do I see him as a traitor? No absolutly not, I see him as a brave young man who put his own life on the line for those many of his peers would have seen as enemies and was lucky to sacrifice only his leg. I see no reason on this earth why he shouldn't be remembered.

My grandfather ( his son) says he never talked about the war but the little we know is to me fascinating and it makes me proud to have him as a relative.

All these people bleatting on about opression and occupation and so on really need to take a good long look at themselves. Being stuck in the past and refusing to move on is exactly why people PC Ronan Kerr are still dying up North. Please please please just let your ridiculous prejudaces go and move into the 21st century.

They never talked about it because they were embarrassed. Thats the truth. Many signed up for that Home Rule would be delivered, more signed up because there was feck all work and the British Army has always been kind enough to shell out a shilling for Paddy cannon fodder.

I find it strange that you accuse the "anti Poppy brigade" as being struck in the past whilst you advocate an outward display commemorating a war that took place 100 years ago.

I'll leave this post by highlighting one of the most ignorant uneducated sentances typed out in all these pages "All these people bleatting on about opression and occupation and so on really need to take a good long look at themselves"

Gobsmacking ignorance!

Since you are so fond of "remembering" just remember that when you are acquire your poppy you are remembering all those British soliders that murdered innocent kids on Bloody Sunday, every **** in the Black and Tans that terrorised this country and brainless mongs trapsing out to around the world to secure Britain's economic interests.

Well done!

And this is coming from someone whose grandfather and uncle "served the British Army" during WWII.

ejmaztec · 07-11-2011 10:57am

slapbangwallop wrote: »

They never talked about it because they were embarrassed. Thats the truth. Many signed up for that Home Rule would be delivered, more signed up because there was feck all work and the British Army has always been kind enough to shell out a shilling for Paddy cannon fodder.

I find it strange that you accuse the "anti Poppy brigade" as being struck in the past whilst you advocate an outward display commemorating a war that took place 100 years ago.

I'll leave this post by highlighting one of the most ignorant uneducated sentances typed out in all these pages "All these people bleatting on about opression and occupation and so on really need to take a good long look at themselves"

Gobsmacking ignorance!

Since you are so fond of "remembering" just remember that when you are acquire your poppy you are remembering all those British soliders that murdered innocent kids on Bloody Sunday, every **** in the Black and Tans that terrorised this country and brainless mongs trapsing out to around the world to secure Britain's economic interests.

Well done!

And this is coming from someone whose grandfather and uncle "served the British Army" during WWII.

Using this word in a post fully negates everything that you have to say.

AudreyHepburn · 07-11-2011 11:00am

No (I'm British/not Irish)

slapbangwallop wrote: »

They never talked about it because they were embarrassed. Thats the truth. Many signed up for that Home Rule would be delivered, more signed up because there was feck all work and the British Army has always been kind enough to shell out a shilling for Paddy cannon fodder.

I find it strange that you accuse the "anti Poppy brigade" as being struck in the past whilst you advocate an outward display commemorating a war that took place 100 years ago.

I'll leave this post by highlighting one of the most ignorant uneducated sentances typed out in all these pages "All these people bleatting on about opression and occupation and so on really need to take a good long look at themselves"

Gobsmacking ignorance!

Since you are so fond of "remembering" just remember that when you are acquire your poppy you are remembering all those British soliders that murdered innocent kids on Bloody Sunday, every **** in the Black and Tans that terrorised this country and brainless mongs trapsing out to around the world to secure Britain's economic interests.

Well done!

And this is coming from someone whose grandfather and uncle "served the British Army" during WWII.

Sigh.....you've missed my point completely.

I am neither ignorant or uneducated.......unless wanted keep my great-grandfather's memory alive is ignorant.

There is a difference between remember the past and being stuck in it. Your post is every bit as arrogant and ignorant as you claim mine to be.

You should be proud of your grandfather and uncle, not embarressed. I suggest it is you who needs to rethink your opinions, not me.

Fratton Fred · 07-11-2011 11:20am

slapbangwallop wrote: »

They never talked about it because they were embarrassed. Thats the truth. Many signed up for that Home Rule would be delivered, more signed up because there was feck all work and the British Army has always been kind enough to shell out a shilling for Paddy cannon fodder.

I find it strange that you accuse the "anti Poppy brigade" as being struck in the past whilst you advocate an outward display commemorating a war that took place 100 years ago.

I'll leave this post by highlighting one of the most ignorant uneducated sentances typed out in all these pages "All these people bleatting on about opression and occupation and so on really need to take a good long look at themselves"

Gobsmacking ignorance!

Since you are so fond of "remembering" just remember that when you are acquire your poppy you are remembering all those British soliders that murdered innocent kids on Bloody Sunday, every **** in the Black and Tans that terrorised this country and brainless mongs trapsing out to around the world to secure Britain's economic interests.

Well done!

And this is coming from someone whose grandfather and uncle "served the British Army" during WWII.

The Black and Tans weren't British army. The Poppy doesn't represent them.

Cú Giobach · 07-11-2011 11:26am

According to some on this forum those who commemorate Irish dead over the centuries are "stuck in the past" and those that commemorate British dead are "remembering the past".
Anyone see something odd about this?

slapbangwallop · 07-11-2011 11:27am

ejmaztec wrote: »

Using this word in a post fully negates everything that you have to say.

Yeah of course it does yeah, thats logical.

If you can think of a better word for the braindead bullet catchers they drag in off the dole from sink estates in Wigan, Skipton and Jarrow on the promise of adventure and comradeship when the reality is that they will be sent to do the Army's dirty work and then dumped after their stint and good chance of ending up unemployed, bitter, homeless, dependant on drugs or with depression then fire ahead.

slapbangwallop · 07-11-2011 11:29am

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Sigh.....you've missed my point completely.

I am neither ignorant or uneducated.......unless wanted keep my great-grandfather's memory alive is ignorant.

There is a difference between remember the past and being stuck in it. Your post is every bit as arrogant and ignorant as you claim mine to be.

You should be proud of your grandfather and uncle, not embarressed. I suggest it is you who needs to rethink your opinions, not me.

I'm not embarrassed. I love my grandfather and named my only son after him. He is embarrassed about it. Read my post.

P.S. Are you Irish? Legit question.

slapbangwallop · 07-11-2011 11:35am

Fratton Fred wrote: »

The Black and Tans weren't British army. The Poppy doesn't represent them.

The Poppy isnt just for the British Army, its for the Navy, Air Force and all the service the scumbag death industry that is propigated as heroism by the British media to feed to machine.

It ****ing disgusts me.

If people are going to wear a Poppy then are least they should know what its about and where the money goes. If they do and are happy with that then let them defend it.

Just not I am NOT political, part of any organisation and dont even vote but this PC Poppy propaganda bull**** erks me.

Fratton Fred · 07-11-2011 11:38am

slapbangwallop wrote: »

Yeah of course it does yeah, thats logical.

If you can think of a better word for the braindead bullet catchers they drag in off the dole from sink estates in Wigan, Skipton and Jarrow on the promise of adventure and comradeship when the reality is that they will be sent to do the Army's dirty work and then dumped after their stint and good chance of ending up unemployed, bitter, homeless, dependant on drugs or with depression then fire ahead.

Does that apply to all soldiers, or just British ones?

What about those who leave university and go to Sandhurst, are they "Mongs" as well?

Fratton Fred · 07-11-2011 11:40am

slapbangwallop wrote: »

The Poppy isnt just for the British Army, its for the Navy, Air Force and all the service the scumbag death industry that is propigated are heroism.

It ****ing disgusts me.

If people are going to wear a Poppy then are least they should know what its about and where the money goes. If they do and are happy with that then let them defend it.

The Black and Tans weren't Navy or Air Force either.

I support the war in Afghanistan and I salute those people brave enough to go out there and fight.

slapbangwallop · 07-11-2011 11:47am

Fratton Fred wrote: »

The Black and Tans weren't Navy or Air Force either.

I support the war in Afghanistan and I salute those people brave enough to go out there and fight.

Read what I wrote. It commemorates ALL servicemen and women in the British Armed Services, which the Auxiliary Division (better known as the Black and Tans) was a part of.

I know it doesnt suit your agenda but there we go eh. I bet there isnt a poster next year saying "Wear a Poppy, support the Tans" of course not, sweep that under the carpet, focus only of the World War, that suits the agenda.

If people are going to support the Poppy then they should know what its all about, which you obviously dont, instead of blindly swallow propaganda.

P.S. Like with Audrey, are you Irish? I am not anti-British, far from it but with a name like "Fratton Fred" something tells me you have an affinity with the soth coast of England.

K-9 · 07-11-2011 11:48am

Cú Giobach wrote: »

According to some on this forum those who commemorate Irish dead over the centuries are "stuck in the past" and those that commemorate British dead are "remembering the past".
Anyone see something odd about this?

Tbh I see a lot of amnesia from some on here. People point to what the British Army did and then forget what the IRA did.

slapbangwallop · 07-11-2011 11:50am

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Does that apply to all soldiers, or just British ones?

What about those who leave university and go to Sandhurst, are they "Mongs" as well?

What percentage of the force get to go to Sanhurst?

I know too well their recruitment tactics. They are disgusting and prey on the vunerable.

Fratton Fred · 07-11-2011 11:56am

slapbangwallop wrote: »

Read what I wrote. It commemorates ALL servicemen and women in the British Armed Services, which the Auxiliary Division (better known as the Black and Tans) was a part of.

I know it doesnt suit your agenda but there we go eh. I bet there isnt a poster next year saying "Wear a Poppy, support the Tans" of course not, sweep that under the carpet, focus only of the World War, that suits the agenda.

If people are going to support the Poppy then they should know what its all about, which you obviously dont, instead of blindly swallow propaganda.

P.S. Like with Audrey, are you Irish? I am not anti-British, far from it but with a name like "Fratton Fred" something tells me you have an affinity with the soth coast of England.

British Armed Services does not include the Police force, or Royal Irish Constabulary, which is what the Black and Tans were.

I know what the Poppy is about, as I said, I support the action in Afghanistan, just as believe the soldiers injured in Iraq deserve recognition.

Unfortunately a few British soldiers have let the nation down, but in the main, the vast majority of British soldiers have served/ are serving with honour and dignity. That why I support the RBL poppy appeal.

In both WWI and WWII hundreds of thousands of men were conscripted, fought and were killed of injured, most of whom were fighting normal, everyday conscripted men like themselves. I wear a poppy to remember them.

Yes, I don't think it is any great secret that I am English.

Fratton Fred · 07-11-2011 12:03pm

slapbangwallop wrote: »

What percentage of the force get to go to Sanhurst?

I know too well their recruitment tactics. They are disgusting and prey on the vunerable.

How do you know their recruiting tactics?

slapbangwallop · 07-11-2011 12:14pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

How do you know their recruiting tactics?

Because they tried to recruit me! and I have seen them outside jobcentres and at fairs etc targetting young lads at their lowest ebb.

I didnt know you were English actually, but it figures. However, I find it a little rich that you are on this thread arguing that Irish people should wear a Poppy.

If British people want to wear it then fair enough, I shant argue with them but Irish people need to wake up to what the Poppy is really about and it commemorates every single British solider that ever stepped foot in Ireland and the ones that remain in the north. If they support them then fair enough please fire ahead but dont expect me to like it.

British poppy: should the Irish commemorate people who fought for the British Empire?

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