Discussions about sexism on the internet...

Dudess

There is misandry out there - no question about it. It's extremely prevalent in popular culture: advertising, television, chick flicks, chick lit, women's magazines, really awful in music videos. I wouldn't touch most of that vapid sh1te with a barge-pole.
Separated fathers are treated atrociously, there is only one support service for male victims of domestic abuse - there are undoubtedly some horrible realities faced by men.
But there is barely any misandry on Boards - tripe to suggest it's really prevalent here, utter tripe. Probably because there are far more men than women - and that's reflective of the internet in general.

SugarHigh

Dudess wrote: »

There is misandry out there - no question about it. It's extremely prevalent in popular culture: advertising, television, chick flicks, chick lit, women's magazines, really awful in music videos. I wouldn't touch most of that vapid sh1te with a barge-pole.
Separated fathers are treated atrociously, there is only one support service for male victims of domestic abuse - there are undoubtedly some horrible realities faced by men.
But there is barely any misandry on Boards - tripe to suggest it's really prevalent here, utter tripe. Probably because there are far more men than women - and that's reflective of the internet in general.

Where was it suggested that it was prevalent?

Bottle_of_Smoke

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

What I actually said was;



The constant is significant in getting across that these are the types of comments that I've borne witness to, I'm not sure why you are trying to suggest I'm claiming that only two of those specific statements are constant...or that they alone are significant.



Other than naming names, how do you expect me to elaborate? Again, this fixation with two of the six examples given. Are you specifically arguing them for a reason, safer ground perhaps? I've had all the examples I gave aimed specifically at me, I've seen them aimed at other posters in one form or another - it isn't a rare occurrence & is part of a much more common, wider theme, hence, constant etc, etc...



Who's falling out? Surely we have to be friends to fall out? :P (I joke)

I think the same points have already been covered adequately above...

Your use of constant followed by the six examples suggested they are each constantly used. I picked the two particularly vulgar examples because it shocked me the most that kind of thing would feature constantly on this site, particularly in feminist threads. If they were constantly happening you could easily link to a post

Ickle Magoo

donfers wrote: »

you claimed that you constantly see threads about anally raping and ejaculating on female posters?

For the third time, I gave them along with others in a list of derogatory phrases as examples of a prevalent theme. It's typical of the way these discussions always go that those are the two examples latched onto with the intention of discrediting me - because I don't want to link to examples so that clearly equals no examples exist; or doing the usual dog-with-a-bone with one specific portion of one posters point to save having to deal with the wider issue.

I notice too that the same posters are thanking posts on both sides - indeed not just on this thread but there is a pattern of thanks and even who enters into these discussions. Why just because the thanks is not weighted in your favour in this instance does it suddenly become politicking or propaganda? While the age old views and deflections are being used yet only people who disagree with you are recycling views?

OutlawPete

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

The bit that explained the part he then went on to feign outrage at? It's a becoming a boring tactic at this stage tbh...the old deflect from the actual issue dog with a bone routine.

It is not me that is feigning - it is you

Feining outrage that I dared to not include two lines of your post - how transparent, the usual evasionary tactics employed when you clearly have no way of defending what you said.

To think that saying "get your tits out" and "get back in the kitchen" is somehow comparable to women saying that "All men are child molesters and rapists" is about as ludicrous as it gets.

Ickle Magoo

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Your use of constant followed by the six examples suggested they are each constantly used. I picked the two particularly vulgar examples because it shocked me the most that kind of thing would feature constantly on this site, particularly in feminist threads. If they were constantly happening you could easily link to a post

What do you mean "particularly in feminist threads" - where was that claimed? Why are bits just being made up and thrown in now?

If you prefer to think such comments do not exist or are rare based on the fact I'm not comfortable linking you to an example, that's your prerogative.

And now that this has turned into the usual suspects with their now infamous gas-lightening routine, that's me over & out.

:cool:

WindSock

Yawn. Round and round the roundybout we go with pedantic post picking. Always seems to happen in these type of threads. I am interested to read opposition until it descends into this dull avoision of the original topic.

But in post #2235 YOU said 'they' instead of 'we'...

Meh.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Dudess wrote: »

There is misandry out there - no question about it. It's extremely prevalent in popular culture: advertising, television, chick flicks, chick lit, women's magazines, really awful in music videos. I wouldn't touch most of that vapid sh1te with a barge-pole.
Separated fathers are treated atrociously, there is only one support service for male victims of domestic abuse - there are undoubtedly some horrible realities faced by men.
But there is barely any misandry on Boards - tripe to suggest it's really prevalent here, utter tripe. Probably because there are far more men than women - and that's reflective of the internet in general.

Thats all very true but not sure what you're responding to

OutlawPete

WindSock wrote: »

Yawn. Round and round the roundybout we go with pedantic post picking.

Course, not like it's at all pedantic to complain that two lines were left out of a reply.

That's just fine I suppose.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

What do you mean "particularly in feminist threads" - where was that claimed? Why are bits just being made up and thrown in now?

The thread is about a cartoon about discussion of feminism on the internet.

If you prefer to think such comments do not exist or are rare based on the fact I'm not comfortable linking you to an example, that's your prerogative.

What's with the hostility? I don't 'prefer to think' anything and that's a bit snide to be honest. It genuinely doesn't seem to me these comments are common on boards

And now that this has turned into the usual suspects with their now infamous gas-lightening routine, that's me over & out.
:cool:

If you're referring to me I have literally no idea what that means.

It's typical of the way these discussions always go that those are the two examples latched onto with the intention of discrediting me

Can you not see why they would be latched on to? They are extremely vulgar things to be saying to people online. You are the only one saying it happens here. Other posters were arguing about how much of a representation the cartoon is of internet discussion of sexism.

Why on earth would I want to discredit you? You're being very evasive with your answers.

Dudess

SugarHigh wrote: »

Where was it suggested that it was prevalent?

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Thats all very true but not sure what you're responding to

Well maybe I'm picking things up wrongly but I'm seeing the "What about sexism against men?" stuff as mentioned in the cartoon (not all of which I agree with either).
And OutlawPete, of course there are negative interpretations of feminism, more aggressive strains of it - it just depends which ones a person subscribes to. There is militant feminism, but it's not representative of feminism as a whole, it's a "splinter" of it.

Wibbs

Wibbs wrote: »

I would say though that one meme, the "but men suffer too you know" response is getting a bit tired for me at this stage. Damn near every thread in this forum where women come on and discuss issue "A" from a woman's point of view, you can lay a decent wedge of hard earned down that some bloke will start bleating(usually more than once) about how "it's not just women you know?". That would be fine and dandy if it was adding to the debate, rather than using that notion as a way to dismiss the original point.

I'm guilty of this, because a lot of the time its used as a stick with which to beat men. Sugarhighs example is a lot more prevalent than (i think) your rebuttal....i.e. Somebody claiming something happens to them because of their gender when in actual fact it happens to both sexes.

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

because I don't want to link to examples so that clearly equals no examples exist; or doing the usual dog-with-a-bone with one specific portion of one posters point to save having to deal with the wider issue.

In fairness, it was a very big claim you made. If you're claiming that its happening constantly and then don't back it up, it kinda negates your original claim. I've yet to see anyone casually say "I'd love to come on your..." either here or any message board without being reprimanded. I've said this before in other threads on this issue, but if anyone did say something like that then, so what? That person is a fcukwit and their opinion deserves zero consideration.

Agree wholeheartedly with your point on the usual taking of sides. You can tell who's arguing what just by skimming their post and looking at who thanked it. Again, I'm guilty of that myself, so try to refrain from over-thanking.

Just because loads of people agree, doesn't make you right.

OutlawPete

Wibbs wrote: »

.. the "but men suffer too you know" response is getting a bit tired for me at this stage. Damn near every thread in this forum where women come on and discuss issue "A" from a woman's point of view, you can lay a decent wedge of hard earned down that some bloke will start bleating (usually more than once) about how "it's not just women you know?". That would be fine and dandy if it was adding to the debate, rather than using that notion as a way to dismiss the original point.

I don't know what other topics this happens in, I have never noticed them tbh but, with respect - I think you are wrong to suggest that men posting on threads where women are complaining about how sexism effects them are somehow misplacing their concerns.

If they are just saying that sexism effects men and not saying why they feel that it is relevant to the debate, then fair enough, but I think any discussion on how women are effected by sexism should not be had without discussing how it effects men in the same arena also, if in fact it does.

The reasons for this are obvious.

Men and women occupy the same spaces, the same places and the same areas of life, if you just address how one sex is discriminated against or treated, it has a knock on effect on the other sex and inevitably you get imbalance.

The only way to truly address sexism and acheive true equality, is if sexism is discussed holistically. We are intertwined as beings so we must strive for equality TOGETHER.

Otherwise, we end up where the western world is now, with one sex (Women) being treated we kid gloves by society and the other (Men) getting walked on and disrespected at every turn, just because they have a penis.

If you are not closely watching how all the steps that are taken to address the perceived "sexual discrimination" against women, then go on to effect men - what happens is that instead solving a bias, you create one:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/female-champion-hewitt-discriminated-against-man-510584.html

Or in the case of Harman, the last deputy Prime Minister - ALMOST cause one:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/harman-defends-positive-discrimination-plans-854475.html

When you have a society that just keeps pushing and pushing for women's "equality", things get skewed and you start seeing women treated far differently to men, just for the very fact that they are female - which is of course why women get far lighter sentences than men in our courts for committing the same crimes - or in fact, just get off:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0324/1224266936416.html

Or if they don't get off, they are working on a solution for that too:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-442113/Womens-prisons-close-decade.html

A society fixated on just seeing sexism as it effects women, has all sorts of ramifications, as in our own Romeo & Juliet case where boys are being discriminated against purely on their sex. All of which is just in an effort to make sure that young girls are not be worried about reporting a sexual assault and then getting charged with having underage sex instead.

Leaving boys open to a 'crime' that girls would be immune from is not seen as that big a deal - as long as our young girls are okay, sure that's the main thing.

Making sure that women as a sex are fine at the expense of men has to END, it's disgraceful and sexist in the extreme that women's issues of sexism are addressed separately, over and above that of men, especially when it comes to areas like the health service, where you see that women's cancers such as Breast Cancer are screened for, far and above men's cancers such as Prostate, despite the fact that fatalities and diagnosis rates are quite similar.

It's just another area of society where there is an anti-male bias and in my view this is caused by "Equality" groups focusing on the needs of just one sex and yes that is out in the real world and this is just an Internet forum but the dynamics are just the same out there, as they are here.

You can't address or discuss sexism towards women on Boards without addressing and discussing how it effects men also. What makes women so special that they feel that the subject of sexism on Boards, needs to be discussed with regards to how it effects them and uniquely them??

'Men can have their own debate on sexism, we're different'

No, sorry - you wanted "equality" and by God I hope you get it - true 'equality' that is, not that sugar coated sexist version of equality that Feminism has manipulated society into providing thus far.

Silverfish

Posters have been asked not to quote posts from other forums on boards in this discussion, so constantly requesting they do so is not getting anywhere.

Wibbs

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm guilty of this, because a lot of the time its used as a stick with which to beat men. Sugarhighs example is a lot more prevalent than (i think) your rebuttal....i.e. Somebody claiming something happens to them because of their gender when in actual fact it happens to both sexes

OK I agree and I also see OutlawPete's points . It does happen to both sexes, but there is also a pattern to this as far as debate on the matter goes, on both sides. In this thread and others I've seen on this site the "whatabout men" meme is as regular as night follows day and if a female poster does become noticeable in a thread every little thing she says gets picked at. There is also more of a shouting down debating style that goes on. That happens to some extent in any debate, but I've defo noticed it more on this subject and more of a gender slant to it. And that's on Boards which is a helluva lot more civil and informed than many "general interest" forums I've been on. Quadruple that guff on the more "freewheeling" sites out there.

Yes the cartoon, you know the thread topic is by its very nature an exaggeration and yes of course not all men are like this, but there is a tendency towards what the cartoon is saying. Like I say on some sites out there the cartoon isn't much of an exaggeration at all. Indeed I would say it's not obvious enough. Honestly? Two years ago I wouldn't have seen it and would likely be agreeing with ye, but modding here and noting similar threads elsewhere and really seeing a lot of this on other non Boards forums, I do see a general pattern emerging. I also see how this can be frustrating for women online.

SkepticOne

What is it that is being discussed here? Is it sexism or is it complaining about the way sexism is discussed? I think there is a problem in trying to discuss both in the same thread although individually each may be valid.

For example, when discussing sexist remarks on After Hours, it may be the case, as pointed out, that there is an element of self-parody in the remarks and as such are not to be taken totally seriously. Now this may or may not be a valid point, however it has been kind of ruled out in advance by the OP where making light of complaints of sexism is held to be a problem in itself.

Ectoplasm

OutlawPete wrote: »

If they are just saying that sexism effects men and not saying why they feel that it is relevant to the debate, then fair enough, but I think any discussion on how women are effected by sexism should not be had without discussing how it effects men in the same arena also, if in fact it does.

The reasons for this are obvious.

Men and women occupy the same spaces, the same places and the same areas of life, if you just address how one sex is discriminated against or treated, it has a knock on effect on the other sex and inevitably you get imbalance.

The only way to truly address sexism and acheive true equality, is if sexism is discussed holistically. We are intertwined as beings so we must strive for equality TOGETHER.

You know, I really agree with the sentiment here. The problem as I see it is that this is rarely what happens. To use an example given earlier, of equal pay. It was suggested that, by showing some cases where women are being paid more than men, this means that there is no chance that other women are being discriminated against for their gender. That is just NOT necessarily true. The chances are that gender discrimination happens to both sexes depending on the field people are working on.

I am quite happy to acknowledge that, that gender discrimination is a two way street. I've said it on numerous occasions. My problem is, in this and in other cases, a lot of people will refuse to acknowledge that a woman could possibly be discriminated against for their gender. They will come along and post 'it happens to men too, therefore it isn't sexist' - I actually think that they are being short sighted. I think they are just showing two examples of sexism. The refusal to consider this is, or to ever acknowledge that the original complaint may be valid or true, is what frustrates the hell out of me.

I love the idea of approaching the problem holistically, but as I've said on numerous occassions, just because sexism happens to men too doesn't negate that it happens to women. It's not a case of two wrongs make it right or equal - two wrongs make it equally inequal. The unwillingness of many to accept a complaint about sexism against women and move the discussion forward from that point of acceptance is definitely an issue.

It's hard to do granted, and I know I've been guilty of getting frustrated which leads me into the position of 'us vs them', which is never good and usually ends up with me posting something I later regret. I keep trying though.

OutlawPete wrote: »

It's just another area of society where there is an anti-male bias and in my view this is caused by "Equality" groups focusing on the needs of just one sex and yes that is out in the real world and this is just an Internet forum but the dynamics are just the same out there, as they are here.

You can't address or discuss sexism towards women on Boards without addressing and discussing how it effects men also. What makes women so special that they feel that the subject of sexism on Boards, needs to be discussed with regards to how it effects them and uniquely them??

'Men can have their own debate on sexism, we're different'

No, sorry - you wanted "equality" and by God I hope you get it - true 'equality' that is, not that sugar coated sexist version of equality that Feminism has manipulated society into providing thus far.

I get the general thrust of what you're saying but disagree on the point that the dynamics on the Internet and the dynamics in the real world are the same. In the real world, women are about half the people...on t'internet it is nothing like this. Online and on boards, women are a minority and that does change the dynamics.

The other thing is that I do think men and women are different and I think it affects them differently. I could be wrong, but I think a man is likely to face sexist issues that I won't and women are likely to face sexist issues that men won't. I don't think this means that it's not possible for men and women to comment on how these issues affect the other - but I do think that one side will / may have a better understanding of it than the other.

One last thing - you and others appear to see Feminism as a bad thing. I have read your posts about it and from what I understand, when you say Feminism you are describing people who are pretty radical and not really looking for equality.

The issue I have with the term feminism is that it covers a wide range of people and beliefs, many of which are pretty moderate, and I am starting to see it slung around as if it's an insult and a bad thing. Even above, you describe it as manipulative. I think sometimes that this puts peoples backs up and they are on the defensive straight away, and using a broad term like this to describe only a section of the people it covers can polarise a discussion before it's even begun. Just my 2c.

Dudess

Happening again - don't think I'll ever go into one of those threads any more. It's just too frustrating... and frankly upsetting that there are such scary views on women...

Gunsfortoys

Dudess wrote: »

Happening again - don't think I'll ever go into one of those threads any more. It's just too frustrating... and frankly upsetting that there are such scary views on women...

I agree with the first half of your post. However this "women are victims" bul**** needs to stop.

This forums crusade against men is scary and I hope none of you get into politics anytime soon because the absolute hatred towards men is disgusting.

I believe first and foremost in equality, so feminism or misogyny should have no place in these forums. I have had enough with arguing with the ignorant people on boards so I am staying well away from any further gender crap.


Good luck to ye.

Nevyn

Dudess wrote: »

Happening again - don't think I'll ever go into one of those threads any more. It's just too frustrating... and frankly upsetting that there are such scary views on women...

Yes this thread has pretty much turned into the type of example the comic was pointing out.

Ectoplasm

Gunsfortoys wrote: »

I agree with the first half of your post. However this "women are victims" bul**** needs to stop.

This forums crusade against men is scary and I hope none of you get into politics anytime soon because the absolute hatred towards men is disgusting.

I believe first and foremost in equality, so feminism or misogyny should have no place in these forums. I have had enough with arguing with the ignorant people on boards so I am staying well away from any further gender crap.


Good luck to ye.

I believe the word you were looking for was misandry. Feminism and misandry are not the same thing.

I object to you saying that this forum is on a crusade and the implication that we are all man haters. It's just not true. Did you even read the thread? Or are you just reacting to one post? I actually thought this was an interesting discussion with some balanced views from both 'sides' of the debate.

You came on and posted about women as victims but then went on to say that everyone here is a man hater and on a crusade against men. That to me is you tarring all the women with the same brush and painting yourself as a victim.

I think the thread Dudess was referring to was quite a few men saying that all Irish women are stuck up bitches who think they're to good for Irish men. Sorry but that statement is misogynistic. Not every man posting on there agreed with it but it IS slightly depressing to read so many men posting that about your gender, at least I feel that way.Just because you point that out doesn't make you a 'victim'.

Ickle Magoo

Gunsfortoys wrote: »

I agree with the first half of your post. However this "women are victims" bul**** needs to stop.

This forums crusade against men is scary and I hope none of you get into politics anytime soon because the absolute hatred towards men is disgusting.

I believe first and foremost in equality, so feminism or misogyny should have no place in these forums. I have had enough with arguing with the ignorant people on boards so I am staying well away from any further gender crap.

Good luck to ye.

It's not "against men" and frankly to suggest that is doing a fine show of playing the victim yourself.

Most female posters have plenty guys in their lives - shockeroonies, sometimes even good mates who are fellow boardsies! :eek:

I'm don't know why every discussion about a particular behaviour by a particular group of men has to be shoved down the ALL men Vs ALL women, isn't EVERYONE just AWFUL cul-de-sac of hysteria.

Dudess

Gunsfortoys wrote: »

However this "women are victims" bul**** needs to stop.

It's not "women are victims" - the stuff on some threads is actually upsetting to read and this forum is here to be enjoyed ffs.

This forums crusade against men is scary and I hope none of you get into politics anytime soon because the absolute hatred towards men is disgusting.

I thought you were becoming reasonable but that is probably the worst thing I've read by you...

I used to think there was a vibe of unpleasantness towards men coming from the Ladies' Lounge, and I kept out of here for quite a while, and brought it up on Feedback discussions, but things have really improved in that regard. And to say there is a crusade against men by this forum is utterly unsubstantiated and yet another cheap shot. The comment on "hatred" is also absolutely unfounded. I saw one stupid anti men comment in recent times here and it was heavily moderated and heavily thanked by women. Seriously, how can you say that stuff? It's like you just type first, think later.
Can't believe your comment was thanked by a woman too...

I have had enough with arguing with the ignorant people on boards so I am staying well away from any further gender crap.

I hear ya... :-/

strobe

Dudess wrote: »

Happening again - don't think I'll ever go into one of those threads any more. It's just too frustrating... and frankly upsetting that there are such scary views on women...

and such scary views on men (aka-"it happens to men too").........:pac:

True though. I never came onto this forum before until a couple of days ago and some of the views expressed by a minority in some threads here are, frankly, a cross between chilling and completely divorced from reality.

I think these threads act as magnets for people of both sexes with slightly warped views. They see it as the perfect opportunity to get up on their soapboxes, and that's what it is, pure soapboxing. It's clear they have no interest in taking on board any opposing views or opinions.

Happens in threads on religion, racism, politics..[.........]..football, computer games, mustard, as well.

Welcome to the internet, enjoy your stay. Don't Panic.

I know it doesn't make it right, and there is nothing wrong with calling someone on it when they express their slightly odd and worrying views. Just be careful about falling into the trap of starting to think that the 'greater internet dickwads' are in anyway representative of anyone but themselves.

parker kent

strobe wrote: »

I think these threads act as magnets for people of both sexes with slightly warped views. They see it as the perfect opportunity to get up on their soapboxes, and that's what it is, pure soapboxing. It's clear they have no interest in taking on board any opposing views or opinions.

This post pretty much sums up how these threads can descend into ridiculous mud slinging. Both genders have people with warped views and it leads to frustrating back and forth arguments.

It is a shame that some views can hide the actual topic. I don't think that anybody can claim that either men or women are not the victims of pretty outrageous behaviour at times. Misogyny is an awful thing to see and as a male, it disgusts me to see how some men think about women. Same way that misandry is disgusting. Both types of opinions (all women are bítches/all men are bastards) should basically be ignored. Both genders suffer from separate and combined issues. We should focus on helping each other with these problems instead of playing a game of constant one-upmanship.

So to at least nod at the OP, yes women can be treated woefully on the Internet and that sucks!

OutlawPete

Thaedydal wrote: »

Yes this thread has pretty much turned into the type of example the comic was pointing out.

You mean the comic that portrayed women as downtrodden, talented, apologizing, oppressed, intelligent slaves ..

.. and that men were all just all sex mad, extremely illogical, homophobic, irrational, domineering, self centered, paranoid whining cry babies ..

.. was that the comic you were were talking about?

Dudess

strobe wrote: »

Just be careful about falling into the trap of starting to think that the 'greater internet dickwads' are in anyway representative of anyone but themselves.

I never would - that would be stooping to the same level as guys who say women are gold-diggers, all the insulting stuff about Irish women etc... because they've encountered some, even many.
It's only a tiny few guys who push that stuff anyway - no way would I think they're representative of all guys.

Nevyn

OutlawPete wrote: »

You mean the comic that portrayed women as downtrodden, talented, apologizing, oppressed, intelligent slaves ..

.. and that men were all just all sex mad, extremely illogical, homophobic, irrational, domineering, self centered, paranoid whining cry babies ..

.. was that the comic you were were talking about?

Nope it was talking about how a % of men on the internet are asshats but with there being more men then women there is often more asshats are women.

OutlawPete

Thaedydal wrote: »

Nope it was talking about how a % of men on the internet are asshats but with there being more men then women there is often more asshats are women.

It is quite sad that you don't see that cartoon for what it is and how it portrays men.

All that comic does is support the notion that women are helpless victims, being oppressed by men, who lack even the most basic intelligence.

It is sexist in the extreme and I am offended by it as man.

If a cartoon was posted that portrayed women as: sex mad, extremely illogical, homophobic, irrational, domineering, self centered, paranoid whining cry babies .. you would be demanding it be removed, yet here you are suggesting it has relevance.

Shocking, but not at all surprising.

Nevyn

I see women in the comic as standing up to sexism and calling it out but getting drowned out by a number of asshats.

If you don't like it report it.

What ever assumptions you make about it are yours and I am not responsible for them.
Have a nice day.