Discussions about sexism on the internet...

donfers

southsiderosie wrote: »

And this is exactly why the level of misogyny in online forums is disturbing; I can't help but think that it legitimizes it and eventually it spills over into real life.

I'm in my early 30s, and I keep reading about these insanely sexist college parties, contests, etc, and it just seems so completely foreign to my experience in college just over a decade ago. And I can't help feel that the normalization of porn and sexist internet discourse contributes to that.





Well, you are basically saying they are trivial, since women should just 'suck it up'.



Do we? Not from what I have been told multiple times on boards; it has all gone away and today feminists are destroying the likes of men, women, children, and babies all over the world. Oh, and they kick puppies.



Do you actively combat sexist comments when you come across them? Because not telling people "hey, that's not cool" when they make a sexist comment is part of the cycle that perpetuates it.

you are misrepresenting my argument and putting words in my mouth but let me boil down my analysis


if some stranger you are never likely to meet (man or woman) makes a comment on an internet forum that is outrageously sexist then my opinion is that you shouldn't let it bother you too much (of course with the ratio of men to women on online forums you will see mroe sexism directed towards women there)....however if for example you learn that a male work colleague at work (who is doing the same job as you to roughly the same ability and with roughly the same experience) is earning more than you then take the appropriate action to investigate why the pay disparity exists, contact human resources department, equality organisations, a lawyer, whatever it takes to determine why the man is receiving more, be active and thorough and forceful in searching for the truth...rather than for example bitching about it to your friends/family, resenting the male colleague (who has no control over your pay) and generally being a pain in the arse at work but fearing for your job security and not wanting to rock the boat so limiting your resistence to a passive aggressive demeanour at work or an online thread or photoshop job.....now I realise almost everyone here will claim that they would take the active counter-measures and I applaud that but unfortunately, at least in my experience, there are many who choose to complain about something than actually do anything about the complaint - the key point of course where we differ is what is worthy of complaint, many here say the sexist comments on AH are worthy of complaint but I agree with Scanlas on this that there's not a lot you can do about how someone else chooses to value you, it is their mind, their opinion and their judgement.

Ultimately they have the right to percieve how they wish, they don't have the right though to infringe on any of you legal rights however such as the right to equal pay, the vote, to be safe, to do whatever job you prefer, to sleep with whoever you want etc etc....and when you suspect that is happening then by all means unleash hell.

It's not nice when people make judgements on us that we don't like or we don't think is fair, hopefully most of us have supportive families and good friends that won't indulge in same, but to hold every random stranger on the net to account for comments you find distasteful will always ultimately prove a fruitless exercise, however if it makes you feel better go ahead, my point is that I think energies could be better invested in fighting bigger and more meaningful battles

Dudess

Scanlas The 2nd wrote: »

I don't think I have ever come across a mysogynist, they appear to be a work of fiction to me, much like the lough ness monster. Maybe I'll dress up as this mythical mysogynist and head out trick or treating.

Wow that's condescending. It doesn't have to be a person who just flat-out hates women - would you consider a misandrist to have to be someone who flat-out hates men? Having certain attitudes is enough - e.g. women are gold-diggers, women lead men to suicide, men are emasculated in this day and age and it's all because of women, etc. But still riding them.

Scanlas The 2nd

southsiderosie wrote: »

Wow. So women who are angry about sexist comments, or dismissive treatment from male posters are just letting their emotions get the best of them? Talk about the classic response to a woman daring to voice a negative opinion about something. I'm surprised you didn't just flat out call these people hysterical.

I don't have past emotional trauma. I don't have Daddy issues. And even if I did, it would not mean that my feelings weren't valid.

Stop trying to tell women that they are just being emotional. Stop trying to tell then that they should get over it or not let it bother them. Stop plugging your ears and singing 'lalalalala' when something is patently obvious: the majority of internet forums, including the most trafficked one on this website ooze machismo, and women who try to protest that attitude get slapped down pretty quickly - as do the men who speak up when they see this kind of stuff happening. Just because YOU don't see it doesn't mean it is not there.

My post was about men and women, not just women.

I never said I didn't see sexist comments.

You have just interpreted my post to be critical of women when it was nothing of the sort.

Another thing, pretty much everyone including me has past emotional trauma to some degree which taints how they view the world.

Dudess

Johro wrote: »

Don't mods talk to other mods on boards? You'd think one of them would post a warning to say that blatant sexist remarks will result in a ban. It would have to be be pretty unequivocal though.. There's a problem when some posts are regarded by some as tongue in cheek humorous and others hurtful and offensive. If there are repeat offenders they should just be banned, no question about it.

I think there's too much of a focus on harmless "Get back in the kitchen" stuff and not enough on the real bile - e.g. a thread asking "Women, is wealth important to you when you're dating?" and then some genius posting "Lol at all the women saying it isn't - bullsh1t!" and being thanked en masse and then not being able to argue back when women challenge him on it, so then resorting to "Irish women are munters anyway" etc. Can't believe how that hateful stuff just gets left there.

Ickle Magoo

donfers wrote: »

...my point is that I think energies could be better invested in fighting bigger and more meaningful battles

I'd like to think it's possible to do both - I have to say I find it really quite peculiar that anyone would suggest not challenging sexism or misogyny, never mind suggest time is better served addressing other issues rather than as well as, tbh...I can't imagine anyone suggesting someone ignore racism in favour of addressing homophobia...

Johro

Rules and Guidelines.
You do not have absolute free speech.
No advertising or spam.
Personal abuse is not tolerated.
No porn. No links to porn.
No racism or immigrant bashing.
Blatant sexism is not tolerated.
Do not post here simply to reach a larger audience.
Text speak is strictly forbidden.
No pointless threads, posts or polls.
Do not post any private phone numbers.
Rules on discussing drugs.
If there is a more appropriate forum, post your thread there.
No questioning moderator actions on thread.
No videos depicting violence, murder cruelty.
Excessive off-topic chat or flirting is not allowed.
Rickrolling / 4chan memes and similar link abuse not permitted.
Do not abuse the thread tag system.
No advocating criminality or violence.
Grammar nazis are not welcome here.
Contribute something of your own to any threads you start.
Rules on threads about sex and sexuality / Personal Issues threads / threads about soccer.
Information about bans and infractions.
Do not feed the trolls.
Do not post in really old / zombie threads.
Do not post libellous or copyright material.

Okay, so it's there in the AH charter, seems it's not being enforced.
Also, 'No racism or immigrant bashing'. ??
Right.

Silverfish

Just a mod note:

If you wish to complain about a specific forum, we'd rather you didn't do that here. It's considered bad form to complain about one forum on another.

There's actually a few forums on boards I've stopped reading due to the issues above, what I would do is encourage everyone to use the report post button.
If enough people make a stand, etc etc.

But if you have an issue with specific forums, please use the Feedback or Helpdesk forums rather than complain about moderation on other forums on this forum.

Scanlas The 2nd

Dudess wrote: »

Wow that's condescending. It doesn't have to be a person who just flat-out hates women - would you consider a misandrist to have to be someone who flat-out hates men? Having certain attitudes is enough - e.g. women are gold-diggers, women lead men to suicide, men are emasculated in this day and age and it's all because of women, etc.

Seriously, is it really condescending, I just stated my honest thoughts on the topic.

I thought a misandrist was someone who hates men in general, that was my understanding, and it doesn't bother me if there are misandrists around so long as they dont't hunt me down and chop me up.

dfx-

Dudess wrote: »

Yes, absolutely. I know it's worn into the ground but the "Women who are easy are only for shagging, not relationships, and I'd shag a woman on the first date but would lose respect for her because she put out" stuff is absolutely enraging.

In my experience, ladies are women's harshest critics for being women or a certain type of woman. Some posts I've seen some from people in this thread who they clearly deem inferior staggers me.

Female Shamrock Rovers fans who like pink probably have it worst of all

metrovelvet

southsiderosie wrote: »

Wow. So women who are angry about sexist comments, or dismissive treatment from male posters are just letting their emotions get the best of them? Talk about the classic response to a woman daring to voice a negative opinion about something. I'm surprised you didn't just flat out call these people hysterical.

I don't have past emotional trauma. I don't have Daddy issues. And even if I did, it would not mean that my feelings weren't valid.

Stop trying to tell women that they are just being emotional. Stop trying to tell then that they should get over it or not let it bother them. Stop plugging your ears and singing 'lalalalala' when something is patently obvious: the majority of internet forums, including the most trafficked one on this website ooze machismo, and women who try to protest that attitude get slapped down pretty quickly - as do the men who speak up when they see this kind of stuff happening. Just because YOU don't see it doesn't mean it is not there.

This is exactly what I see too. And its not so much the blatant sexist comments but this entire dynamic that gets my goat.

I've pretty much come to accept that misogyny is a part of life, it always has been and it;s not going to go away. People have to hang their contempt somewhere. I don't so much have a problem with people expressing it, as much as I may not like it, but what I do have a problem with is when it is challenged, the person challenging it is faced with a whole set of strategies to put her right back in her place. And if she gets feisty enough to tell the propegetors of the offending posts to get back in the barnyard, she is the one who will get banned or infracted or bullied into apologising or manipulated into looking dumb.

southsiderosie

donfers wrote: »

you are misrepresenting my argument and putting words in my mouth but let me boil down my analysis

if some stranger you are never likely to meet (man or woman) makes a comment on an internet forum that is outrageously sexist then my opinion is that you shouldn't let it bother you too much (of course with the ratio of men to women on online forums you will see mroe sexism directed towards women there)....

I don't let individual comments bother me. But as I said in my original post, I am bothered by the general tone of discourse, and think that the attitudes that are rampant in internet forums are seeping into broader social discourse, especially among younger men. Frankly, it's not the really nasty and sexist comments that bother me as much as it is the reaction (or lack of reaction) to those comments by other posters that I find to be troubling.

donfers

southsiderosie wrote: »

Wow. So women who are angry about sexist comments, or dismissive treatment from male posters are just letting their emotions get the best of them? Talk about the classic response to a woman daring to voice a negative opinion about something. I'm surprised you didn't just flat out call these people hysterical.

I don't have past emotional trauma. I don't have Daddy issues. And even if I did, it would not mean that my feelings weren't valid.

Stop trying to tell women that they are just being emotional. Stop trying to tell then that they should get over it or not let it bother them. Stop plugging your ears and singing 'lalalalala' when something is patently obvious: the majority of internet forums, including the most trafficked one on this website ooze machismo, and women who try to protest that attitude get slapped down pretty quickly - as do the men who speak up when they see this kind of stuff happening. Just because YOU don't see it doesn't mean it is not there.

Scanlas could just as easily be referring to the guys making the sexist comments, perhaps they've had problems in the past that make them so..........so again I call for a more rounded view or you are guilty of the same crime as the "what about me crowd"...the rush to victimhood is not a race anybody should be trying to win...the aim should be to judge objectively no matter how difficult that is for all of us

donfers

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

I'd like to think it's possible to do both - I have to say I find it really quite peculiar that anyone would suggest not challenging sexism or misogyny, never mind suggest time is better served addressing other issues rather than as well as, tbh...I can't imagine anyone suggesting someone ignore racism in favour of addressing homophobia...

Nobody is suggesting that

donfers

Johro wrote: »

Rules and Guidelines.
You do not have absolute free speech.
No advertising or spam.
Personal abuse is not tolerated.
No porn. No links to porn.
No racism or immigrant bashing.
Blatant sexism is not tolerated.
Do not post here simply to reach a larger audience.
Text speak is strictly forbidden.
No pointless threads, posts or polls.
Do not post any private phone numbers.
Rules on discussing drugs.
If there is a more appropriate forum, post your thread there.
No questioning moderator actions on thread.
No videos depicting violence, murder cruelty.
Excessive off-topic chat or flirting is not allowed.
Rickrolling / 4chan memes and similar link abuse not permitted.
Do not abuse the thread tag system.
No advocating criminality or violence.
Grammar nazis are not welcome here.
Contribute something of your own to any threads you start.
Rules on threads about sex and sexuality / Personal Issues threads / threads about soccer.
Information about bans and infractions.
Do not feed the trolls.
Do not post in really old / zombie threads.
Do not post libellous or copyright material.

Okay, so it's there in the AH charter, seems it's not being enforced.
Also, 'No racism or immigrant bashing'. ??
Right.

blatant is the key word here and in any case these issues are always down to the subjective interpretation of mods, what might offend a regular TLL poster may not offend another forum user (male or female) as much...hence this problem will always exist

Johro

Dudess wrote: »

I think there's too much of a focus on harmless "Get back in the kitchen" stuff and not enough on the real bile - e.g. a thread asking "Women, is wealth important to you when you're dating?" and then some genius posting "Lol at all the women saying it isn't - bullsh1t!" and being thanked en masse and then not being able to argue back when women challenge him on it, so then resorting to "Irish women are munters anyway" etc. Can't believe how that hateful stuff just gets left there.

Fair enough. I think 'Get back in the kitchen.' is bad enough meself. I have seen quite a lot of those type you're pointing out alright, and they do tend to be the usual suspects. Which could elicit the response 'ah sure everyone knows they're eejits, just ignore them', but I know it's not as easy as that, I get drawn into arguments when it comes to racist matters or just plain idiocy and I know they're idiots, but can't help feeling p!ssed off about them.

Johro

Silverfish wrote: »

Just a mod note:

If you wish to complain about a specific forum, we'd rather you didn't do that here. It's considered bad form to complain about one forum on another.

There's actually a few forums on boards I've stopped reading due to the issues above, what I would do is encourage everyone to use the report post button.
If enough people make a stand, etc etc.

But if you have an issue with specific forums, please use the Feedback or Helpdesk forums rather than complain about moderation on other forums on this forum.

Point taken.

Scanlas The 2nd

donfers wrote: »

Scanlas could just as easily be referring to the guys making the sexist comments, perhaps they've had problems in the past that make them so..........so again I call for a more rounded view or you are guilty of the same crime as the "what about me crowd"...the rush to victimhood is not a race anybody should be trying to win...the aim should be to judge objectively no matter how difficult that is for all of us

I was referring to men and women on forums. But it seems to be assumed that I'm attacking women. My point was, a lot of the time imo people who attack with such venom on boards are doing it out of past experience. So Id say don't take it personally.

Dudess

Scanlas The 2nd wrote: »

Seriously, is it really condescending, I just stated my honest thoughts on the topic.

It looked it, it obviously wasn't intended. Sorry.

dfx- wrote: »

In my experience, ladies are women's harshest critics for being women or a certain type of woman. Some posts I've seen some from people in this thread who they clearly deem inferior staggers me.

I don't know what you're saying about people on this thread, but I'd agree there are plenty of women who undermine other women - another stick used by some men to beat women though: "Shur women hate other women" and the like. But yes, at times the lack of "sisterhood" can be really infuriating.

Female Shamrock Rovers fans who like pink probably have it worst of all

Ah... I heard all about those guys this weekend - still buzzin'? :D

donfers

southsiderosie wrote: »

I don't let individual comments bother me. But as I said in my original post, I am bothered by the general tone of discourse, and think that the attitudes that are rampant in internet forums are seeping into broader social discourse, especially among younger men. Frankly, it's not the really nasty and sexist comments that bother me as much as it is the reaction (or lack of reaction) to those comments by other posters that I find to be troubling.

That's a good point, however I would say that the reaction or lack of reaction to the original sexist comments is not necessarily a tacit acceptance of the comments, a lot of energy and efforts is spent on moderating the boards and the worst stuff is removed, but what I think is worth examining is how much what someone comments on on a discussion forum correlates to their real-life real world beliefs and actions, more investigation is required there I think

Johro

southsiderosie wrote: »

I don't let individual comments bother me. But as I said in my original post, I am bothered by the general tone of discourse, and think that the attitudes that are rampant in internet forums are seeping into broader social discourse, especially among younger men. Frankly, it's not the really nasty and sexist comments that bother me as much as it is the reaction (or lack of reaction) to those comments by other posters that I find to be troubling.

You said it. They are also the ones that come up with jewels like 'What do skangers do', 'scumbag' threads, and plain racist threads. I'm hoping they'll grow up. I come here for a break:D
I guess the only way to make more people aware of it is for more of the guys on AH to point it out. And report if necessary.

donfers

Scanlas The 2nd wrote: »

I was referring to men and women on forums. But it seems to be assumed that I'm attacking women. My point was, a lot of the time imo people who attack with such venom on boards are doing it out of past experience. So Id say don't take it personally.

Yes I understood that and I agree


I am posting too much on this thread at the mo so I'll bow out for now (if I get loads of thanks for this last comment I'll cry!)

southsiderosie

donfers wrote: »

That's a good point, however I would say that the reaction or lack of reaction to the original sexist comments is not necessarily a tacit acceptance of the comments, a lot of energy and efforts is spent on moderating the boards and the worst stuff is removed, but what I think is worth examining is how much what someone comments on on a discussion forum correlates to their real-life real world beliefs and actions, more investigation is required there I think

Given that there is a 'thanks' function, and it is used quite liberally in response to what are often miserable posts, I would say that there is a great deal of explicit acceptance of these kinds of comments.

Scanlas The 2nd

southsiderosie wrote: »

Given that there is a 'thanks' function, and it is used quite liberally in response to what are often miserable posts, I would say that there is a great deal of explicit acceptance of these kinds of comments.

That could be true, but I wouldn't discount the people who are just looking for a reaction who make these sort of posts.

Johro

Scanlas The 2nd wrote: »

That could be true, but I wouldn't discount the people who are just looking for a reaction who make these sort of posts.

They still get lots of thanks. That should tell you something.

Ickle Magoo

donfers wrote: »

That's a good point, however I would say that the reaction or lack of reaction to the original sexist comments is not necessarily a tacit acceptance of the comments, a lot of energy and efforts is spent on moderating the boards and the worst stuff is removed, but what I think is worth examining is how much what someone comments on on a discussion forum correlates to their real-life real world beliefs and actions, more investigation is required there I think

Probably the most irritating aspect is apart from a few who I think might actually be serious and just garner my pity, the rest are like little boys hiding behind their keyboards lashing out at women and sniggering in a sad wee group as if in a virtual school yard competing for who can tweak the pigtail hardest or pull the skirt up without the teacher on yard duty noticing. I don't think for a minute that the volume of posters who indulge in the digs, the comments, crashing any women centred thread, etc are sitting at home hating their mothers, sisters and friends - which in a way makes it all the worse.

There seems to be a core group of posters that see misogynistic comments as the new lolcat and derailing any thread for and about women and twisting it around to a "Woe is me/women are their own worst enemy/ have no sense of humour/over emotional/it was just a bit of fun/*insert tired old cliché here* as a fun-time mission - and other posters see that and join in.

Scanlas The 2nd

Johro wrote: »

They still get lots of thanks. That should tell you something.

If that's what they think then so be it. Let them think what they think. Don't waste your time worrying about it.

LenaClaire

donfers wrote: »

.however if for example you learn that a male work colleague at work (who is doing the same job as you to roughly the same ability and with roughly the same experience) is earning more than you then take the appropriate action to investigate why the pay disparity exists, contact human resources department, equality organisations, a lawyer, whatever it takes to determine why the man is receiving more, be active and thorough and forceful in searching for the truth...rather than for example bitching about it to your friends/family, resenting the male colleague (who has no control over your pay) and generally being a pain in the arse at work but fearing for your job security and not wanting to rock the boat so limiting your resistence to a passive aggressive demeanour at work or an online thread or photoshop job.....now I realise almost everyone here will claim that they would take the active counter-measures and I applaud that but unfortunately, at least in my experience, there are many who choose to complain about something than actually do anything about the complaint...

.. my point is that I think energies could be better invested in fighting bigger and more meaningful battles

This kills me, I did find out that a male coworker was making significantly more than me, I did report it to the VP and ask for a meeting as to why there was a pay discrepancy. For my efforts I got written up. All of a sudden my review went from 100% to being a slacker. Amazing what trying to be proactive can do for your career.

And as to investing in bigger battles... it starts with the little ones. I let people tell me to get back in the kitchen cause it is a joke. And then when someone on the street yells that I have a great ass I don't complain, cause hey, its a complement right? And then when someone yells that I have a great rack and they would love to motorboat them.. do I complain now? Or should I wait until I am at a party and some drunk a$$ thinks it is now okay to grab me? By not drawing the line early you let people think they can get away with treating you like dirt.

Nevyn

K-9 wrote: »

Thought you were treated very unfairly in that thread. It became more about you than the points you raised. Like Wibbs, I wouldn't have agreed with everything you said, but it was worthy of discussion.

The "what about me?" posts sum it up perfectly, it's a selfish attitude and they just aren't going to get it. They do raise points but to me, it seems they are unwilling to see the bigger picture.

She wasn't the first person to bring the topic of sexism on the site to feedback
If you do a search you will find them and see the same pattern

Chinafoot

Scanlas The 2nd wrote: »

If that's what they think then so be it. Let them think what they think. Don't waste your time worrying about it.

Do you not think, on some level, that the attitudes seen on boards are in some way indicative of the attitudes in the real world? Its so easy to say "Don't waste your time worrying about it." or "Don't let it annoy you." But the attitudes displayed online, unfortunately, don't remain solely online.

People being so dismissive doesn't exactly help the situation.

Dr. Zeus

Scanlas The 2nd wrote: »

People are free to value you how they wish. There is nothing you can do about it. If people value me based soley on the shape of my toes there is nothing I can do about it. It is people's right to value me based on my toes if they wish.

Are you annoyed that don't get the status that you feel you deserve based on your other qualities? If that is the case, once again I say, people have the right to perceive you how they wish. Why do you think you should be able to dictate and overide people's freedom of beliefs and values. Accept the things you can't ( and shouldn't) control and you will be a happier person.

Hey, thanks but you entirely missed the point of my post. I won't even bother addressing your patronising last two lines.